RailCorp thinks they have a copyright on train schedules

[Dominus Atheos]

According to Aussie law, they're probably right.

NSW state corporation RailCorp has threatened a Sydney software developer with legal action if he fails to withdraw a train timetable application that is currently the second most popular application in its category in Apple's App Store.

The idea for the application, Transit Sydney, came to web developer Alvin Singh after he began teaching himself how to program in Cocoa Mobile, the Apple-created programming language used to build applications for the company's hugely popular iPhone.

"In December I had some spare time and thought I would learn to program for the iPhone," said Singh, whose day job developing for a News Ltd online property requires a daily commute on Sydney trains.

During that month and January, Singh developed and worked with App Store reviewers to refine the look and feel of Transit Sydney, an iPhone and iPod Touch compatible application that lets users search timetable information for services on Sydney's lines.

The $2.49 application, published by Singh's one-man company FunkWorks, was an instant success, and is currently the second most-popular travel application in the travel section of Apple's Australian App Store.

The application, which displays upcoming train information in a format similar to the monitors found in every Sydney station, ranks just behind a timetable application for the London Underground and just ahead of a similar application with information on Melbourne's trains.

Transit Sydney is selling several dozen copies per day — an encouraging result for Singh, who acknowledged it needs additional functionality and was testing the waters before spending additional time and effort developing the application.

Users are clamouring for more functionality — including weekend timetables and live-updated information on track works and cancellations — but Singh has been planning on adding those enhancements in a future version. "I eventually got it to a point where for most people it's usable, and if you're a weekday commuter you can use it," he says.

Yet within days of its 18 February release, Singh received a cease and desist notice from Rail Corporation NSW, the government body that administers Sydney's CityRail network.

"I advise that copyright in all CityRail timetables is owned by RailCorp," said the email, which has been seen by ZDNet.com.au. "Any use of these timetables in a manner which breaches copyright by a third party can only occur through the grant of a suitable licence by RailCorp."

The notice came as a surprise to Singh, who believed that timetable information about public transport systems was public information and pointed to a wealth of similar App Store applications providing timetables for train systems in Melbourne, Perth, Singapore, Paris, London, and even another application with the same Sydney information.

As a government body, RailCorp information is protected by Crown copyright, a contentious provision in copyright law that has recently been used to block attempts to access information on the location of Victoria's bushfires and even seemingly innocuous information as the locations of public toilets.

A 2005 inquiry by the Copyright Law Review Committee recommended relaxation of Crown copyright provisions to allow for more easy access to public interest information, but those changes have yet to be implemented and RailCorp is standing by its challenge.

"RailCorp's primary concern here is that our customers receive accurate, up-to-date timetable information," RailCorp spokesperson Paul Rea explained. "This includes details of service interruptions, special event services, track work and other changes."

"At this stage, it is not possible for RailCorp to grant third-party developers access to our internal passenger information systems. As such, any third-party CityRail timetable application would contain inaccuracies and have the potential to mislead our customers."

Asked under what terms a developer could get access to a "suitable licence" as per the email sent to Singh, Rea said such licences are currently unavailable to developers while RailCorp firms up its own mobile development strategy. A timetable application for iPhone and other mobile users is expected later in the year, he said, although it was not yet clear whether this would be provided for free or at a price.

Singh is taking a wait-and-see stance for now while he gets further legal advice on the situation or a formal legal letter of demand from RailCorp, and is considering escalating the dispute over availability of public information to the office of NSW Ministry of Transport or the NSW Ombudsman.

How the fuck does someone copyright train schedules? I mean, I realize this is the magical land of Oz with Wizards and flying monkeys, but this is completely ridiculous.

[weemadando]

Public transport in Australia is a joke. That's all you need to know.

And they can easily copyright the timetables because they're a work of fiction.

[PeZook]

That's...stupendously retarded. It's like a cinema saying people can't copy their repertoirs and distribute them all over: that information makes people use your services!

[Lusankya]

That's...stupendously retarded. It's like a cinema saying people can't copy their repertoirs and distribute them all over: that information makes people use your services!

You are assuming that the people in charge of public transport in Australia want it to be used.

I'll tell you a story from Melbourne. This is a magical land where the guy who they put in charge of public transport was a self-confessed opponent of public transport. Sort of like the Republican party, except focussed solely on a hatred of ease of mobility regardless of car ownership. Anyway, there was this planned tram extension to Knox City - a large shopping centre with a movie complex and all that jazz. It would have been very convenient to have a tram out there. Anyway, this guy, because he loathes PT, got a brilliant idea. He decided to put a temporary halt to the tram line about a km away from the shopping centre, and put in a crappy, unreliable shuttle bus between the tram terminus and the shopping centre. Naturally, people didn't use this, because it was crappy and unreliable. He then pointed to this lack of patronage to say, "Look! These people here don't want a tram to the shopping centre, so we're going to reallocate the funds to somewhere else, like my backside or something."

Then there's the case of the South Australian state government, who decided to extend the Glenelg tramline so that it actually went into the part of the city where everyone worked. Then were all surprised when the increase in convenience caused train patronage to almost double. As a result, the trams are now stupidly full on weekday mornings and afternoons. Just ask weemadando. At least the SA government seems to have bipartisan support regarding improvements to public transport, though, so that was probably just a case of honest incompetence rather than malice. They also almost never check concession cards, due to the fact that they put the policing of concession cards into the hands of the operators, who don't give two squats about it, because they get the same amount of money per passenger regardless.

Now, I'm not saying that I know that the NSW public transport authorities are as malicious or incompetent as they are in other Australian states, but they probably are.

[Vympel]

Now, I'm not saying that I know that the NSW public transport authorities are as malicious or incompetent as they are in other Australian states, but they probably are.

The majority of our trains are ancient, our rail infrastructure is a crumbling, 1960s era embarassment riddled with kitbashes (and gets affected by rain), overcrowding, especially on the Illawarra and North Shore lines, is utterly obscene, and the rail timetable only got predictable because they cancelled shitloads of services and changed the definition of "on time" to "within 5 minutes".

But they keep allocating money to building more and more and more and more toll roads.

That's the Cliff Notes.

[Uraniun235]

As a government body, RailCorp information is protected by Crown copyright, a contentious provision in copyright law that has recently been used to block attempts to access information on the location of Victoria's bushfires and even seemingly innocuous information as the locations of public toilets.

That's completely insane, that is some total fucking power trip bullshit.

I'll tell you a story from Melbourne. This is a magical land where the guy who they put in charge of public transport was a self-confessed opponent of public transport.

This was an appointed position, right? Not an elected one... right?

[Lusankya]

I'll tell you a story from Melbourne. This is a magical land where the guy who they put in charge of public transport was a self-confessed opponent of public transport.

This was an appointed position, right? Not an elected one... right?

Yes and no. I believe he was a minister, though not being a native Melburnian I'm not entirely sure. Keep in mind that while he may be elected as an MP, his position as head of public transport is effectively appointed by the Premier.

[Sea Skimmer]

The majority of our trains are ancient, our rail infrastructure is a crumbling, 1960s era embarassment riddled with kitbashes (and gets affected by rain), overcrowding, especially on the Illawarra and North Shore lines, is utterly obscene, and the rail timetable only got predictable because they cancelled shitloads of services and changed the definition of "on time" to "within 5 minutes".

Umm, every train system in the world except maybe the Chinese maglev is going to be slowed down by rain. It’s that whole steel wheels sliding on steel rails thing.

[Teebs]

Umm, every train system in the world except maybe the Chinese maglev is going to be slowed down by rain. It’s that whole steel wheels sliding on steel rails thing.

Sure, but no train system that I've been on has had its timetabling screwed by rain (short of flooding or whatever). Sensible ones obviously have expectations of rain built in.

[bobalot]

Working for RailCorp, I would say I'm not surprised. I nearly got by balls busted by our legal department not that long ago over a trivial matter. They honestly have nothing better to do.

Everybody I know working here, thought the timetable thing was a great idea.

[tim31]

But they keep allocating money to building more and more and more and more toll roads.

...while happily gouging Harbour Bridge users. All the tolls had to go up when I was there in January/February, didn't they? They charged the credit card the other day *cash register noise*

[Thanas]

Umm, every train system in the world except maybe the Chinese maglev is going to be slowed down by rain. It’s that whole steel wheels sliding on steel rails thing.

No. German trains, for example, are built to run on high speed in any weather condition. Even in winter they run at full speed.

And it is funny that you call it the "chinese" maglev.

[darkjedi521]

When I rode Metro North in Connecticut back in '90-'00, there were very few weather related slowdowns. Generally heavy snow slowed down the trains, and cold snaps made the turn of the 20th century power wires prone to snapping. Those have all since been replaced with a new system that accommodates higher speed trains. Rain screwing up railroad time tables is the exception, not the rule.

[Stark]

Like we keep saying, you guys need to base your broken, mis-managed civilian light rail on the profits from your massive 'move piles of coal' industry. Like Queensland!

Then you can spend billions of dollars linking two train lines at a point ONE STOP BEFORE THEY MEET ANYWAY by DIGGING A GIANT FUCKING HOLE. Not having ring routes has driven us mad, you see.

[Sea Skimmer]

No. German trains, for example, are built to run on high speed in any weather condition. Even in winter they run at full speed.

Except its not a matter of maximum speed, it’s a manner of accelerating and breaking distance. If they aren’t slowed down at all by rain slowing breaking, then that just means they aren’t running as fast as they could in the first place.

And it is funny that you call it the "chinese" maglev.

China paid for it; Germany meanwhile I hear has canceled all its own projects, and is left with only a test track that still ridiculously managed to have a major fatal accident. Course now Chinas gone and stolen you’re technology too, which I think anyone could have seen coming.

[weemadando]

Like we keep saying, you guys need to base your broken, mis-managed civilian light rail on the profits from your massive 'move piles of coal' industry. Like Queensland!

Then you can spend billions of dollars linking two train lines at a point ONE STOP BEFORE THEY MEET ANYWAY by DIGGING A GIANT FUCKING HOLE. Not having ring routes has driven us mad, you see.

Melbourne rocks in this regard. Want to get from one station in the outer suburbs to one in the next outer suburb over? Yah, you have to ride the 1 hour+ into the city and then the 1hr+ back out of the city, crossing zones (so your ticket doubles in price, even though you are only changing trains in at the central station to catch another one back out) and if you are lucky, then you won't get a delay of more than 15 minutes on either of those.

Public transport in Australia sucks.

[Lusankya]

I'm pretty sure that Connex makes a profit as well (without government subsidies). I'm not sure how they manage to do that. I'm guessing it has something to do with the ticket prices being high and the service being crap enough that they save a significant amount of money, yet good enough that people will use it anyway. They seem to have managed to hit it right on the sweet spot.

[Kanastrous]

We have bizarre copyright BS with public agencies and their logos, etc here, too.

Every time I want to use an FBI, NASA, CIA, DHS, etc logo, legal departments insist we get clearance from the agency at issue. Apparently the logos of publicly funded government agencies with no commercial competition are copyrighted/trademarked just like commercial identities.

Fuck that noise, say I. How the hell did taxpayer-financed public organizations get the authority to control non-fraudulent use of their seals? Those ought to be public property. The public paid for 'em.

[bobalot]

I'm pretty sure that Connex makes a profit as well (without government subsidies). I'm not sure how they manage to do that. I'm guessing it has something to do with the ticket prices being high and the service being crap enough that they save a significant amount of money, yet good enough that people will use it anyway. They seem to have managed to hit it right on the sweet spot.

I doubt that. They must rely on government hand outs. Passenger rail has never been all that profitable here or most other places. The English system needs massive handouts for the operators to stay in business (In fact, several times more after privatisation).