How common are the "Democrat Apocalypse" scenerios

[Pulp Hero]

[Not sure if this is N&P or OT, but it does deal with the politics of crazy people.]

So last night I go out to a party with a friend and meet a lot of his friends and friends of friends. This is in a military town, and most people are either in or were in, the person in particular that I am going to talk about was infantry and has been out for about ten years.

The round table conversation goes on about various subjects, and gets on to personal weapons. The main guy starts talking about the AWB and "You young guys had better buy your ARs now."

Okay, reasonable. I've been thinking about buying one myself anyway and the AWB will likely go through, making buying ARs a pain in the ass for a few years. Opinions on gun control aside, those are basically the facts.

Then he starts going on about how we really need to buy them now and we should stock up on ammunition for when the government tries to disarm the country.

He says that he has heard from "reliable sources" that the California government has asked its National Guard if they would be willing to disarm its citizens. He asks us if as military members we have been asked the same thing.

Now, this conversation has veered from comparing favorite pistol types into full crazy survivalist mode. I'm really uncomfortable, and stop contributing- but everyone else around the table is fully engaged and in full agreement with this guy.

Everyone is convinced that in six months (where did this number come from) America as we know is over.

Thoughts:
1). Do these people think that the government is going to collapse and have the ability to confiscate everyone's firearms? <-Main question.

2). According to them what is the "endgame" of the government confiscating everyone's weapons? That kind of thing is a means, not an end.

3). How common were these nut jobs during other democratic Presidents. And if they are more common now, why? Is it a combination of a depression and a black Democrat President.

4). Do people really think that the government really wants to take guns away that it is going to do the whole "tanks in the street" shtick, instead of just legislating weapons to the point of unbuyability.

5). If the full might of the U.S. military is used, do they really think that their piss ant AR-15 > M1 Abrams.

6). While indulging in this survalist fantasy crap, all they talk about are is ammunition and guns, if they were really serious (and this is the giveaway that they are just fearmongers) they would talk about stuff that is needed to survive long term.

7). Final thought: If the government becomes an oppressive military state, I'm already in the Army- from where I'm sitting that puts me on the winning side.

[Knife]

Its retarded. Hell, even in your little group, the very people they think are the ones going to be asked to disarm civilians are the very guys who want to stock up on arms and ammo. It makes little sense.

[Pablo Sanchez]

1). Do these people think that the government is going to collapse and have the ability to confiscate everyone's firearms? <-Main question.

We're talking here about a heterogeneous group that contains everything from angry white guys who only fantasize about fighting the power but would really just knuckle under when the ATF came for their guns, to people who are already living in sheds in the Montana backwoods. To answer your questions, I'm just going to be talking about the people who are actually wedded to this ideology, and not just dilettantes.

So yes, they believe both, the first possibly as a consequence of the second. See below.

2). According to them what is the "endgame" of the government confiscating everyone's weapons? That kind of thing is a means, not an end.

Totalitarian government--Nazism, the Holocaust, and/or Stalinism. Seriously, Google 'Hitler gun control' and 'Stalin gun control.' Most of the top results are actually debunking articles, but I think it still gets across that it is a meme.

3). How common were these nut jobs during other democratic Presidents. And if they are more common now, why? Is it a combination of a depression and a black Democrat President.

No, they were extremely common during the great prosperity of the Clinton administration (see the Waco Siege and the aftermath, Ruby Ridge, 1996 Summer Olympics Bombing, and Oklahoma City Bombing), and abruptly disappeared from notoriety with the 2000 elections. I think right-wing-militia-type paranoia is minimally influenced by the actual situation of the country, and that it is more driven by a subjective perception among conservative, often religious and crypto-racist, undereducated, white males that they are not in control. The best illustration of this is that they were previously most active during the Clinton years and were paranoid about government conspiracies, being attacked and detained by the government, etc., but they became largely quiescent during the Bush administration, in spite of the fact that the government was openly asserting the authority to do many of the things that they had only had nightmares about in the 1990s. The difference was the perception that these powers were being exercised by their own people, against the Other.

4). Do people really think that the government really wants to take guns away that it is going to do the whole "tanks in the street" shtick, instead of just legislating weapons to the point of unbuyability.

Yes.

5). If the full might of the U.S. military is used, do they really think that their piss ant AR-15 > M1 Abrams.

I'm not certain about this. In one sense, I think yes, they overestimate their ability to stand in the face of military action. On the other hand, I think they believe that the US military will stand with them against the civilian government, if it came to a real insurrection or civil war, and that's what would be crucial to their survival and success.

Glenn Greenwald did a column on Salon about the issue you're talking about, the return of the Angry White Male movement, and he also mentions a Glenn Beck segment where he talked to some people about the possibility of a civil war. The commentators believe that the army would stand with "the people" against the government.

6). While indulging in this survalist fantasy crap, all they talk about are is ammunition and guns, if they were really serious (and this is the giveaway that they are just fearmongers) they would talk about stuff that is needed to survive long term.

This is true of hobbyists, but there were also some people (like Randy Weaver) who were more serious and actually intended to go off the grid.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The irony of the position that I finally figured out is that the person stockpiling guns and ammo is stockpiling guns and ammo so that he can fight back against the government coming to take his stockpile of guns and ammo.

[Alyeska]

The irony of the position that I finally figured out is that the person stockpiling guns and ammo is stockpiling guns and ammo so that he can fight back against the government coming to take his stockpile of guns and ammo.

Its a self fullfiling prophecy. I once saw the perfect example of it.

Person A: We must take away their guns because they don't trust the government!

Person B: I don't trust the government because they want to take away our guns!

Both sides fed each others paranoia perfectly.

[The Spartan]

Okay, reasonable. I've been thinking about buying one myself anyway and the AWB will likely go through, making buying ARs a pain in the ass for a few years. Opinions on gun control aside, those are basically the facts.

What are you talking about? When that idea was floated by the administration it was soundly shot down. Then there's the many Democrats that were elected on pro-gun platforms.

[Pulp Hero]

Okay, reasonable. I've been thinking about buying one myself anyway and the AWB will likely go through, making buying ARs a pain in the ass for a few years. Opinions on gun control aside, those are basically the facts.

What are you talking about? When that idea was floated by the administration it was soundly shot down. Then there's the many Democrats that were elected on pro-gun platforms.

Last I heard it was still on the table. Either way, while I don't agree with it, it is not the end of the world like some people make it out to be.

[The Guid]

On the other hand, I think they believe that the US military will stand with them against the civilian government, if it came to a real insurrection or civil war, and that's what would be crucial to their survival and success.

Glenn Greenwald did a column on Salon about the issue you're talking about, the return of the Angry White Male movement, and he also mentions a Glenn Beck segment where he talked to some people about the possibility of a civil war. The commentators believe that the army would stand with "the people" against the government.

So let me get this totally straight in my head. They need to stockpile guns so that they can resist the army that will be on their side? If the army will be on the people's side what exactly do they need to fight? The police force? If the army is on their side they don't need protecting from the police force. Do they need protection from Democratic Congressmen going door to door or something?

Spotting the flaws in these guy's thinking is like shooting fish in a barrel with a bazooka, laser sight and an advance tactical computer operated fish targeting system, with a few experts and sharpshooters giving advice, and helping

[The Spartan]

Okay, reasonable. I've been thinking about buying one myself anyway and the AWB will likely go through, making buying ARs a pain in the ass for a few years. Opinions on gun control aside, those are basically the facts.

What are you talking about? When that idea was floated by the administration it was soundly shot down. Then there's the many Democrats that were elected on pro-gun platforms.

Last I heard it was still on the table. Either way, while I don't agree with it, it is not the end of the world like some people make it out to be.

From this forum Specifically, the 19(?) post on the page, made by His Divine Shadow.

The article in question.

Pelosi: “On that score, I think we need to enforce the laws we have right now,”

[Coyote]

The usual posturing on Culture War issues that come up every time there's an election-- the losing side starts spinning tales about how things will go horribly about guns/abortion/birth control/school religion/etc now that The Other Side is in charge.

Until something actually starts to happen, just tune it out. People like this exist on both sides and they always have something to "motivate" (scare the hell out of) people.

[Glocksman]

The usual posturing on Culture War issues that come up every time there's an election-- the losing side starts spinning tales about how things will go horribly about guns/abortion/birth control/school religion/etc now that The Other Side is in charge.

Until something actually starts to happen, just tune it out. People like this exist on both sides and they always have something to "motivate" (scare the hell out of) people.

Best answer yet.
The right wing loves to spin tales about how the left is going to require abortions/gun confiscation/atheism/etc., and yet if truth be told, most US gun owners are working class people who absent the demands for gun bans from the insane left would be the Democrats' natural allies.

Shit, I voted for Obama in spite of the Democratic Party's bullshit platform WRT gun rights.
Imagine how many working class supporters Obama would have drawn if he'd pronounced strident support for gun rights.

IMHO, the right uses culture war memes because they are effective.
Democrats and the left in general ignore that at their peril.

[Dark Hellion]

I get what you are saying there Glocksman, but isn't the fact that those memes are effective primarily because of the overarching stupidity and intellectual apathy of those voters? How many of these people are the voters that hold onto their guns because actually learning about politics (thus teaching them that those democrats are the far left) would require much more mental work than they are willing to put in?

Pretending that it is the democrats duty to parrot to idiots defeats the purpose of government in many ways. The democrats have been and continue to be very poor at communicating with these kinds of groups, but these sames groups barely bother to understand any position beyond "they gonna take our guns/jobs/poodles" and thus continually vote against there own interests because of abject stupidity on their parts.

[Zixinus]

The irony of the position that I finally figured out is that the person stockpiling guns and ammo is stockpiling guns and ammo so that he can fight back against the government coming to take his stockpile of guns and ammo.

That made my day. Thank you. The cycle is just so wonderfully stupid that its ironic.