[Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

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[Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Surlethe »

Here's a bit on environmentalism and urbanization:

NYTimes blog
In Dr. Seuss’ environmentalist fable, “The Lorax,” the Once-ler, a budding textile magnate, chops down Truffula to knit “Thneeds.”

Over the protests of the environmentally sensitive Lorax, the Once-ler builds a great industrial town that despoils the environment, because he “had to grow bigger.” Eventually, the Once-ler overdoes it, and he chops down the last Truffula tree, destroying the source of his income. Chastened, Dr. Seuss’s industrialist turns green, urging a young listener to take the last Truffula seed and plant a new forest.

Some of the lessons told by this story are correct. From a purely profit-maximizing point of view, the Once-ler is pretty inept, because he kills his golden goose. Any good management consultant would have told him to manage his growth more wisely. One aspect of the story’s environmentalist message, that bad things happen when we overfish a common pool, is also correct.

But the unfortunate aspect of the story is that urbanization comes off terribly. The forests are good; the factories are bad. Not only does the story disparage the remarkable benefits that came from the mass production of clothing in 19th-century textile towns, it sends exactly the wrong message on the environment. Contrary to the story’s implied message, living in cities is green, while living surrounded by forests is brown.

By building taller and taller buildings, the Once-ler was proving himself to be the real environmentalist.

Matthew Kahn, a U.C.L.A. environmental economist, and I looked across America’s metropolitan areas and calculated the carbon emissions associated with a new home in different parts of the country. We estimated expected energy use from driving and public transportation, for a family of fixed size and income. We added in carbon emissions from home electricity and home heating. We didn’t try to take on the far thornier issues related to commercial or industrial energy use.

This exercise wasn’t meant to be some sort of environmental beauty contest, but an estimate of the environmental costs and benefits associated with living in different parts of the country. In a recent City Journal article, I gave a brief (and somewhat polemical) synopsis of the results.

In almost every metropolitan area, we found the central city residents emitted less carbon than the suburban counterparts. In New York and San Francisco, the average urban family emits more than two tons less carbon annually because it drives less. In Nashville, the city-suburb carbon gap due to driving is more than three tons. After all, density is the defining characteristic of cities. All that closeness means that people need to travel shorter distances, and that shows up clearly in the data.

While public transportation certainly uses much less energy, per rider, than driving, large carbon reductions are possible without any switch to buses or rails. Higher-density suburban areas, which are still entirely car-dependent, still involve a lot less travel than the really sprawling places. This fact offers some hope for greens eager to reduce carbon emissions, since it is a lot easier to imagine Americans driving shorter distances than giving up their cars.

But cars represent only one-third of the gap in carbon emissions between New Yorkers and their suburbanites. The gap in electricity usage between New York City and its suburbs is also about two tons. The gap in emissions from home heating is almost three tons. All told, we estimate a seven-ton difference in carbon emissions between the residents of Manhattan’s urban aeries and the good burghers of Westchester County. Living surrounded by concrete is actually pretty green. Living surrounded by trees is not.

The policy prescription that follows from this is that environmentalists should be championing the growth of more and taller skyscrapers. Every new crane in New York City means less low-density development. The environmental ideal should be an apartment in downtown San Francisco, not a ranch in Marin County.

Of course, many environmentalists will still prefer to take their cue from Henry David Thoreau, who advocated living alone in the woods. They would do well to remember that Thoreau, in a sloppy chowder-cooking moment, burned down 300 acres of prime Concord woodland. Few Boston merchants did as much environmental harm, which suggests that if you want to take good care of the environment, stay away from it and live in cities.
A pretty common-sense argument. I wonder why the emissions gap from home heating is so high - is it because cities are naturally several degrees warmer than surrounding countryside, because it's more efficient to heat one building than the same volume of several, or some combination of the two?
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Coyote »

Cities in general are warmer, for a variety of reasons, than the surrounding countryside. While they are probably easier to keep warm in the winter, I doubt the same benefit is had when the reverse is happening: keeping them cool in the summer.

Although more buildings are, I believe, incorporating that new flexible solar film stuff into their construction... that might help a lot. And the tops of skyscrapers could probably do with some wind turbines... But cities can actually be quite green with the right construction and management.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by loomer »

Even without wind turbines, just putting a rooftop garden in can make a difference in terms of air quality and total food requirement for the city. It isn't much, but it certainly does help - plus it's just nice to sit on the roof with a stiff breeze, surrounded by greenery. In a deck chair. With some whiskey.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:I wonder why the emissions gap from home heating is so high - is it because cities are naturally several degrees warmer than surrounding countryside, because it's more efficient to heat one building than the same volume of several, or some combination of the two?
Size and surface area Mr. Math dude. Condos & apartments are generally a good deal smaller than homes, plus when you stack'em all in a high-rise building there's a lot less surface area for the same volume. So less energy to heat since they're smaller, plus more efficient since there's less surface for the heat to leak out. And it's probably better insulated too with a more efficient heating system.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Concrete soaks loads of heat while bleeding a little away. Coming from a city that has tonnes of concrete covering almost every square foot of the land, and on a really hot day, the concrete really keeps the heat in.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Alferd Packer »

New York is also rather exceptional, in that it had a district heating system that serves all of Manhattan below 96th Street. That's the largest in the world. I can imagine that such an implementation would have to be extremely efficient through economies of scale. However, I wonder if the cooling costs in New York are closer to that of the suburbs; I've been in my office's HVAC room, and our air conditioner is e-goddamned-normous.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by aerius »

Alferd Packer wrote:However, I wonder if the cooling costs in New York are closer to that of the suburbs; I've been in my office's HVAC room, and our air conditioner is e-goddamned-normous.
Here in Toronto it's definitely cheaper since we have a cold lakewater cooling system installed for a bunch of our buildings.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Alferd Packer »

aerius wrote:
Alferd Packer wrote:However, I wonder if the cooling costs in New York are closer to that of the suburbs; I've been in my office's HVAC room, and our air conditioner is e-goddamned-normous.
Here in Toronto it's definitely cheaper since we have a cold lakewater cooling system installed for a bunch of our buildings.
Ooh, that's spiffy. In NYC, it appears that most apartment buildings have wall/window AC units, especially if they're older. I'm sure that's horribly inefficient. Speaking of efficiencies, I just realized why San Francisco is so energy-efficient: air conditioning isn't needed 11.5 months out of the year, if ever. Similarly, only moderate heating is needed in winter, as the average temperature wavers about 15 degrees F the entire year.

Anyway, I imagine that a similar cooling system could be implemented along the coasts of the US, save perhaps the Gulf of Mexico, and would be particularly useful in the southern parts of the country. I wonder if you can accomplish the same thing with salt water, or would it be too corrosive?
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Well, you can do steam-powered air conditioning (seriously, I know it's ridiculously counterintuitive, but you can), and apparently Con Edison has actually made that available in New York recently, so more efficiency gains can be realized. That and I utterly love steam heating systems in cities, we have one in Seattle too, and the only thing better will be when they're powered by waste heat from nuclear reactors.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Philadelphia also has a couple urban heating plants, just about everything taller then three stories in the center of the city uses it along with schools and hospitals all around. One of the plants actually burns bunker oil in its nine story tall boiler in a display of super awesome advancement.
Alferd Packer wrote: Anyway, I imagine that a similar cooling system could be implemented along the coasts of the US, save perhaps the Gulf of Mexico, and would be particularly useful in the southern parts of the country. I wonder if you can accomplish the same thing with salt water, or would it be too corrosive?
A pilot projects actually running right now that uses the temperature difference of sea water to outright generate electrical power. Using it for cooling is easy, the heat exchangers will suffer corrosion but it’s nothing we don’t already deal with under much more extreme temperature differences in ships and conventional and nuclear coastal power stations.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Darth Wong »

Surlethe wrote:A pretty common-sense argument. I wonder why the emissions gap from home heating is so high - is it because cities are naturally several degrees warmer than surrounding countryside, because it's more efficient to heat one building than the same volume of several, or some combination of the two?
Take a typical fully detached home, and an apartment. Let's say both have roughly the same floor space: roughly 2400 ft². And let's say both are laid out as two floors, each having 1200 ft² floor space laid out in a 40'x30' rectangle.

The house will have all four outside walls fully exposed to the atmosphere. That's an area of 2(40+30)(2)(10)=2800 ft², plus the roof, which (if flat) would have an area of 1200 ft². There's also the floor, which conducts heat into the (presumably colder) ground, adding another 1200 ft². So we're talking about 5200 ft² of surface area transferring heat to the outside, for a dwelling with a floor space of 2400 ft².

Now let's look at the apartment. Its roof, floor, and 3 of its exterior walls are all connected to adjacent apartments, being maintained at similar temperatures. Therefore, its only contact to the outside world is one wall, and the way apartments are laid out, it would be a short one. So the total cooling surface area would be 30(2)(10)=600 ft². For a corner apartment, there would be two exposed walls, so it would be (30+40)(2)(10)=1400 ft². However, for a large apartment building, you can safely characterize most of the apartment units by the interior units rather than the corner units.

In other words, the fully detached house has almost nine times the heat transfer surface area of the apartment in this example, given two units of almost identical interior layout.

There are other economies as well, like only needing to run services (water, power, telephone) to a single building for hundreds of people, rather than running separate sets of lines and pipes to hundreds of houses. And the load on infrastructure is reduced, since the increased density makes for reduced numbers of roads which must be built. It also becomes more economical to have local shopping businesses which are within walking distance, because the apartment contains enough people to make a local business viable, whereas the suburban layout creates substantial economic pressure to create large "hub" shopping centres which are nowhere near walking distance for most of the community.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by RedImperator »

The New Urbanists have been preaching this gospel for twenty years. Even rowhouses are a significant improvement over suburban houses, as only the two short walls are exposed to the air, and rowhouse neighborhoods also reach densities high enough to support walkable commercial areas.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Don't urban centers produce more waste, though? Which then leads to the destruction of surrounding countryside to accomodate this waste? The article certainly makes a good argument with regards to carbon emissions, but that is only one small part of the larger environmental impact.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

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Ziggy Stardust wrote:Don't urban centers produce more waste, though? Which then leads to the destruction of surrounding countryside to accomodate this waste? The article certainly makes a good argument with regards to carbon emissions, but that is only one small part of the larger environmental impact.
No, they only produce more waste per unit area, because of the higher population density. But that's not a bad thing! Like when you see 300 huge garbage bags piled up outside a large apartment building? That's because there are 300 units in the building, and probably around 600-800 people living and producing trash there. A suburban house may only have a single garbage can in front of it, but there are 300 others like it spread out over an area perhaps up to a square mile (even more if you're way out in the exurbs). There's no less trash; it's just less obvious.

Now, when it comes time to collect the trash, there's one single stop for the garbage truck to make outside the apartment building and boom! That's 600 people's trash collected for the week. That same stop in suburbia? Might've gotten 6 people's if the family's large. The first truck is already all loaded up and on its way back to the dump; the other has another couple hundred stops to make.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Darth Wong »

Country dwellers have been peddling that "cities are bad for the environment" bullshit for longer than any of us have been alive. It's always been a lie, and no intelligent people believed it. Of course, rural folk are generally unintelligent (the brain requiring exercise for fitness as much as any other part of the body), so they buy into it almost 100%, even though there's not a shred of evidence for it apart from their inexcusable inability to understand math and the importance of using the civic population as the denominator.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Kanastrous »

Country living (that is, living in the countryside without being attached to actual work there) was a sign of success and 'arrival' from the 18th-19th century. Maybe interest in living in suburbs in the post-war period drew upon the same basic perception.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Darth Wong wrote:Country dwellers have been peddling that "cities are bad for the environment" bullshit for longer than any of us have been alive. It's always been a lie, and no intelligent people believed it. Of course, rural folk are generally unintelligent (the brain requiring exercise for fitness as much as any other part of the body), so they buy into it almost 100%, even though there's not a shred of evidence for it apart from their inexcusable inability to understand math and the importance of using the civic population as the denominator.
It isn't just country dwellers. I grew up in a city, and have lived in cities for most of my life. I don't know a whole lot about the subject, so I always accepted at face value what I was told (if I recall correctly, often by teachers when I was in school). It is common "knowledge" that cities are inherently less environmentally friendly than living rurally. Now that I am looking at the facts, I see that this is inaccurate. However, when you grow up being told something, it is hard to shake off that perception. Especially, as Alferd Packer noted, since the waste from apartment buildings is more concentrated and visible than it is in the suburbs, on a very superficial level it seems to make sense.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Alferd Packer »

RedImperator wrote:The New Urbanists have been preaching this gospel for twenty years. Even rowhouses are a significant improvement over suburban houses, as only the two short walls are exposed to the air, and rowhouse neighborhoods also reach densities high enough to support walkable commercial areas.
While detached single-family homes simply can't compete when he comes to heating/cooling efficiencies, it should be noted that they can support population densities capable of supporting New Urbanism, provided the lots are small, around .13 to .18 acres. My favorite example of this is the town in which I live: 7,000 residents, 1 square mile in area. It's mainly single-family houses, with a few small garden apartment complexes. Since the downtown is in the center of town, no one's more than a ten minute walk from shopping, bars, commuter rail, etc.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

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Alferd Packer wrote:
RedImperator wrote:The New Urbanists have been preaching this gospel for twenty years. Even rowhouses are a significant improvement over suburban houses, as only the two short walls are exposed to the air, and rowhouse neighborhoods also reach densities high enough to support walkable commercial areas.
While detached single-family homes simply can't compete when he comes to heating/cooling efficiencies, it should be noted that they can support population densities capable of supporting New Urbanism, provided the lots are small, around .13 to .18 acres. My favorite example of this is the town in which I live: 7,000 residents, 1 square mile in area. It's mainly single-family houses, with a few small garden apartment complexes. Since the downtown is in the center of town, no one's more than a ten minute walk from shopping, bars, commuter rail, etc.
Oh, sure. My mom's hometown is still like that (small suburb of Philadelphia, .5 sq mile area, 4200 people, centered on a walkable downtown that still actually has a grocery store, hardware store, and movie theater). If we're lucky, towns like that are the suburbs of the future. I just thought I'd point out that there's a compromise between apartments (which admittedly, have quite a few annoyances) and fully detached houses.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

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The Article wrote:In New York and San Francisco, the average urban family emits more than two tons less carbon annually because it drives less. In Nashville, the city-suburb carbon gap due to driving is more than three tons.
How many tons of carbon does the typical urban or rural family actually emit? Wait, I'll google it...
Fox News wrote:The average “carbon footprint” for a U.S. household is 19 metric tons of CO2, according to BP’s web site. -- Link
The Encyclopedia of Earth wrote:A carbon footprint can be measured for an individual or an organization, and is typically given in tons of CO2-equivalent (CO2-eq) per year. For example, the average North American generates about 20 tons of CO2-eq each year. The global average carbon footprint is about 4 tons of CO2-eq per year (Figure 1). -- Link
I notice two things off the bat:
1) Carbon is not equal to carbon dioxide! A metric ton of CO2 is not the same thing as a metric ton of carbon!
2) Fox News says that the figure is for a "US household." The "Encyclopedia of Earth" (whatever that is) says their figure is for an individual.

Assuming the units given by Fox News are correct, the average household emits 5.185 metric tons of carbon. Even reducing this by one metric ton (of carbon) is, in my opinion, very significant.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by CmdrWilkens »

On the cooling side of things you have a wierd sort of duality: Any wall or spot that is expsoed to sunlight will recevie heat (which will need to be dissipated)...so oddly enough this means that the exact same area calculations that DW pointed out earlier work just as well for cooling as they do for heating. The process really is a different side of the same coin. Obviously there are some extra inefficiencies related to urban density mostly that the waste heat sent out of buildings makes the surrounding environment warmer inducing a higher requirement on the units around them...but we aren't talking about the kind of order of magnitude difference that would be neccessary to make up for the difference in surface area exposed to external heating.

As to why commercial and other central units are so large? Mostly it has to do with volume of air that they have to move. There is a wierd sort of ideal zone for cooling untis between about 25 tons and 100/125 tons (without doing the math 1 Ton of colling is roughly 12,000 Btu/h). Within that range you can manage airflow pretty easily, use whatever kind of water system is available (chilled or condensed water are both viable...that's right you can run an AC system with 90* F water), and not have to kill yourself with fan power. Unfortunately because building want to maximize space for productive applications and not HVAC machinery large building tend to have to make do with ridiculously overpowered units in order to be able to effectively deliver enough cooling to distant portions of the building.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Broomstick »

aerius wrote:
Surlethe wrote:I wonder why the emissions gap from home heating is so high - is it because cities are naturally several degrees warmer than surrounding countryside, because it's more efficient to heat one building than the same volume of several, or some combination of the two?
Size and surface area Mr. Math dude. Condos & apartments are generally a good deal smaller than homes, plus when you stack'em all in a high-rise building there's a lot less surface area for the same volume. So less energy to heat since they're smaller, plus more efficient since there's less surface for the heat to leak out. And it's probably better insulated too with a more efficient heating system.
My experience with Chicago skyscrapers, many built in the 60's and 70's, is that they have totally shitty insulation. Almost none in some cases, along with glass curtain walls that bleed heat. In some cases that can be fixed after the fact, but not always. Those buildings were designed and built when heating/cooling was relatively cheap and times were good.

That said, small cubic living space and less surface area may still reap some savings over equally shitty houses built during the same period.
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Re: [Op/Ed] Skyscrapers are green

Post by Darth Wong »

Even if the fully detached house's walls had half the thermal conductivity of the apartment's walls, the apartment would still come out far ahead because of the huge difference in exposed surface area.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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