North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

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North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by MKSheppard »

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The United States has no plans to shoot down the North Korean rocket, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Wednesday in an interview with CNN’s Jill Dougherty, but will raise the issue with the U.N. Security Council if Pyongyang carries out a launch.
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Japan ordered its military on Friday to destroy a North Korean missile or its debris, if the launch fails and falling pieces of the rocket seem to imperil Japanese territory.

Japan ordered two destroyers equipped with American-built Aegis anti-missile systems into the Sea of Japan, and said it would soon move Patriot land-to-air missiles to the country's northern coast, over which the North Korean rocket is likely to fly.
The Japanese are gonna be shooting down the missiles that Americans wont, to borrow a phrase from the immigration debate :mrgreen:

And to borrow something from Cuffy Meigs; this is what it's gonna look like:

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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Vendetta »

MKSheppard wrote: The Japanese are gonna be shooting down the missiles that Americans wont, to borrow a phrase from the immigration debate :mrgreen:
I very much suspect that the Japanese, like the American ships that are going to watch, are actually going to track the test launch to get an accurate picture of the rocket's capabilities, rather than to shoot it down.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Vendetta wrote:I very much suspect that the Japanese, like the American ships that are going to watch, are actually going to track the test launch to get an accurate picture of the rocket's capabilities, rather than to shoot it down.
Yeah but if they shoot down the test missile the accurate picture of the capabilities is denied to North Korea as well. :D
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Solauren »

It's also a rather nice reminder to North Korea that they might have a few missiles, but they are totally illrelevant compared to modern military technology.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Solauren wrote:It's also a rather nice reminder to North Korea that they might have a few missiles, but they are totally illrelevant compared to modern military technology.
They still have quite a few chemical shells etc. aimed at Seoul however.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Solauren wrote:It's also a rather nice reminder to North Korea that they might have a few missiles, but they are totally illrelevant compared to modern military technology.
North Korea is estimated to have at least 700 ballistic missiles with a range of 300km or greater, and may well have more then 1,000 such weapons. They are no fucking joke compared to the VERY limited level of ABM defence present in South Korea and Japan. This is besides the hoards and hoards of artillery pieces, multiple rocket launchers and large free flight rockets they have with shorter range, but which can still bombard Seoul, a city of 10 million people and 20% of the entire South Korean economy.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Solauren »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Solauren wrote:It's also a rather nice reminder to North Korea that they might have a few missiles, but they are totally illrelevant compared to modern military technology.
North Korea is estimated to have at least 700 ballistic missiles with a range of 300km or greater, and may well have more then 1,000 such weapons. They are no fucking joke compared to the VERY limited level of ABM defence present in South Korea and Japan. This is besides the hoards and hoards of artillery pieces, multiple rocket launchers and large free flight rockets they have with shorter range, but which can still bombard Seoul, a city of 10 million people and 20% of the entire South Korean economy.
I was thinking more in terms of nuclear delivery, but the level of firepower NK posseses is well taken.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

How long would the rest of the world have to wait North Korea out before these weapons could be considered to be of negligible reliability due to age and decrepitude? As long as nobody supplies them parts and skill for maintenance, it's not like they can keep this up indefinitely. They are, after all, a sneak peek at peak oil in action right now.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Solauren wrote: I was thinking more in terms of nuclear delivery, but the level of firepower NK posseses is well taken.
If North Korea can get a nuke down a 2,000lb assembly, which is not unlikely, when you subtract the weight of the armor the first US nukes in 1945 actually didn’t weigh much more then that, then almost all of those missiles can become nuclear delivery systems. In fact most of North Koreas existing missiles are a bigger nuclear threat then the Taepodong-2 we think they are about to test, as they have larger warheads. Taepodong-2 is only thought to carry about 500kg. Anyway the North Koreans wouldn’t risk a precious nuke on a missile that’s only had a couple test flights. They might be stupid, but not in that manner.

North Korea also has hoards of small submarines and stealthy watercraft it could conceivably use for nuclear deliver, besides the invasion tunnels (its thought some might run all the way under Seoul) and good old bombing raids. The Norks could throw a lot of planes in the air if they wanted, several hundred at least, and that would present a real risk of swamping ROK air defences. Japan would be okay, since the warning time would be much higher for an air raid.

So yeah, we aren’t going to piss them off by shooting down a test missile for no reason. The Japanese are just preparing to shoot it down if it malfunctions and is going to fall on them, which is a lot different. Plenty of North Korean (and every other nations) ballistic missiles fail in tests so its a real risk, though in all reality the likelyhood of any damage on the ground is very low.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Master of Ossus »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:How long would the rest of the world have to wait North Korea out before these weapons could be considered to be of negligible reliability due to age and decrepitude? As long as nobody supplies them parts and skill for maintenance, it's not like they can keep this up indefinitely. They are, after all, a sneak peek at peak oil in action right now.
Nuclear weapons can last for decades even with fairly minimal maintenance. I think you're underestimating North Korea's military industry, though--they build a lot of their own stuff and even (try to) export their weapons to other countries. The country's dirt poor, but that's because they've thrown everything into building weapons (somewhere around 50% of their annual GDP). Their weapons are unlikely to die due to lack of maintenance for a long time.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Sea Skimmer »

North Korea is pretty much stuck in the middle ages in terms of society, they don’t need much but food to keep going, and continually expanding the nuclear missile threat. All the weapons they have except some aircraft have been locally produced so they can make any part they need. They just can't afford to do that for all of the huge conventional forces. If they keep crawling forward without collapsing, and have a population that isn’t growing they might eventually get back to a level of basic self sufficiency. That would be a bit of a nightmare scenario though, and an unlikely one. Perpetual North Korea… with more and more nukes until they mine up all the uranium in the country. But then North Korea truly collapsing, with ROK troops having to move in to take control the place is a very undesirable result too.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by erik_t »

Is there sufficient knowledge of and interest in this topic to support a (probably separate) thread to discuss plausible actions that could be taken by the rest of the world to avoid such unpleasant scenarios? I've pondered it at length but haven't come up with much.

Maybe it'd make a good Colosseum topic if there's sufficient difference of opinion.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

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What is the US doctrine against North Korea in case of a war with South Korea? Would'nt North Korea be instantly nuked by American forces? They have made it very clear that they are going to use massive amounts of biological, chemical and possibly nuclear weapons against their enemies if the war ever starts. Would the US really sit idly by and let them turn half of South Korea into a graveyard without using its nuclear capabilites?
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

cosmicalstorm wrote:What is the US doctrine against North Korea in case of a war with South Korea? Would'nt North Korea be instantly nuked by American forces? They have made it very clear that they are going to use massive amounts of biological, chemical and possibly nuclear weapons against their enemies if the war ever starts. Would the US really sit idly by and let them turn half of South Korea into a graveyard without using its nuclear capabilites?
The US does have a military base in S. Korea for that reason. I have forgotten lots of details and I am working from memory on this issue, but I recall there was a plan to move the base outside Seoul to give the military units based there more maneuvering power.

A real problem for the S. Koreans is the fact that Seoul is within bombardment range of quite a lot of artillery shells. THere was talk of shifting the capital, but I think it fell through. The last president wanted to shift the capital 100miles south, which would have been a good idea.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:THere was talk of shifting the capital, but I think it fell through. The last president wanted to shift the capital 100miles south, which would have been a good idea.
It fell through because South Korea's economic and defense center is Seoul, regardless of the factory locations of Hyundai, Kia and LG. If I recall correctly, we still have 30,000 US troops stationed on the North Korea/South Korea border as well, since the US is still at war with North Korea (albeit in a state of armistice), and it just wouldn't be cricket to leave those troops as a firebreak without something - like the seat of government - to stiffen their spines!

In addition, if the North Korean Army does break through the border it'll march straight for Seoul regardless of the government's location, and once they're through the South Korean government becomes immaterial until the North Koreans are driven back and defeated.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Count Chocula wrote:It fell through because South Korea's economic and defense center is Seoul, regardless of the factory locations of Hyundai, Kia and LG. If I recall correctly, we still have 30,000 US troops stationed on the North Korea/South Korea border as well, since the US is still at war with North Korea (albeit in a state of armistice), and it just wouldn't be cricket to leave those troops as a firebreak without something - like the seat of government - to stiffen their spines!

In addition, if the North Korean Army does break through the border it'll march straight for Seoul regardless of the government's location, and once they're through the South Korean government becomes immaterial until the North Koreans are driven back and defeated.
The trouble would be, who's going to lead the S. Korean military when the S. Korean government gets destroyed? I believe there were some recent agreements to give the S. Koreans more control on their own country's defence.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Count Chocula »

^ Good question. Perhaps Stuart, Sea Skimmer or Shep would have more concrete info, but I can't help but think the South Koreans and USFK (US Force Korea) have a state equivalent of our SIOP, or go-to-hell plan.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Prannon »

I currently live and work in Seoul, and I can't say that the Koreans seem all that worried about the upcoming launch. I've only heard about it through the BBC, and even at work all of my coworkers seem more concerned about baseball games and other various sports. That's not to say that people aren't worried about it, because for all I know it's just not something they talk about in public. Then again, I don't speak Korean, so they might be talking about it and I wouldn't know. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to be a big deal currently, and life continues.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Count Chocula wrote:It fell through because South Korea's economic and defense center is Seoul, regardless of the factory locations of Hyundai, Kia and LG. If I recall correctly, we still have 30,000 US troops stationed on the North Korea/South Korea border as well, since the US is still at war with North Korea (albeit in a state of armistice), and it just wouldn't be cricket to leave those troops as a firebreak without something - like the seat of government - to stiffen their spines!

In addition, if the North Korean Army does break through the border it'll march straight for Seoul regardless of the government's location, and once they're through the South Korean government becomes immaterial until the North Koreans are driven back and defeated.
The trouble would be, who's going to lead the S. Korean military when the S. Korean government gets destroyed? I believe there were some recent agreements to give the S. Koreans more control on their own country's defence.
Apparently there were, because according to Wikipedia South Korea has a plan to be self-sufficient in its defense sometime over the next 20 years. The US presence is more of a sign of US commitment to South Korea in the event of war than anything else.

I think it should also be mentioned that the South Korean military is no pushover either. North Korea maintains an active force of about a million troops with seven million in reserve, but South Korea maintains about 560,000 active troops with 3 million in reserve. South Korea has a compulsory military service requirement, and it also has a much larger military budget than North Korea (about USD 28.5 billion to USD 5.5 billion). Fancier toys distributed among fewer troops.

So even though Seoul is at a unique risk to devastation in wartime, and North Korea could swamp the border with hordes and hordes of dedicated troops in no time (most of their active troops are permanently stationed on the border), in the long term the war is theirs to lose. That's especially true if the US intervenes, and certainly no one in the rest of the world would come to their rescue (except maybe China) if they ended up massacring civilians in Seoul.

With that in mind, I think that North Korea's bellicose statements shouldn't be seen as offensive gestures, but rather defensive posturing. Remember the fuss that North Korea raised during the US-ROK war games a few weeks ago? All that stuff about how they were training to invade North Korea? They know that they most they could do is cause a really huge ouchie if war came, and then it'd be all over. So if we're scared of the big load of hurt they'd dump on Seoul, they're scared of losing power after that. War isn't in either party's best interests.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

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I've been made to understand that even China has considerably soured in its attitudes towards North Korea, evidenced in part by military forces being built up in proximity to North Korea.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

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Tanasinn wrote:I've been made to understand that even China has considerably soured in its attitudes towards North Korea, evidenced in part by military forces being built up in proximity to North Korea.
Source? Do you have any more details?
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Prannon »

BBC article from 2006
North Korea claims nuclear test
North Korea says it has carried out its first test of a nuclear weapon.

It said the underground test, carried out in defiance of international warnings, was a success and had not resulted in any leak of radiation.

The US said intelligence had detected a seismic event at a suspected test site and Russia said it was "100% certain" a nuclear test had occurred.

The US said the reported test was a "provocative act", while China denounced it as "brazen".

In an unusually strong statement against its ally, China expressed its "resolute opposition" to the claimed test and said it "defied the universal opposition of international society".
I posted the relevant parts of the article; emphasis mine. Ever since North Korea tested their first nuclear weapon (which only yielded a fraction of a kiloton if I recall correctly), China's attitude has indeed soured. Now, for context, China maintains something of an alliance with the North Koreans because they are interested in the buffer zone against the pro-western, capitalist government of South Korea. It would geo-politically dangerous to allow the country to fall on purely Western terms. China would then be subject to pressure from the US that it doesn't want. Historically, China was invaded by Japan through the Korean peninsula early in the 20th century.

However, China doesn't want a nuclear North Korea any more than the rest of us do. A blatantly nuclear North would greatly encourage South Korea and particularly Japan to arm themselves with nukes of their own, increasing international instability right on China's doorstep. So, they'll put just enough pressure on the North Koreans to force them to the table and try to make them behave...just so long as we don't run roughshod over the country.

That's my understanding anyway.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The trouble with China is that they may say one thing, but do something else. N. Korea to them, and has been since before the Korean War, a buffer against the United States and its allies. As a result, I would be hesitant to assume that they will ever hang the N. Koreans dry. Their immediate concern is a flood of refugees from N. Korea.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Cecelia5578 »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Tanasinn wrote:I've been made to understand that even China has considerably soured in its attitudes towards North Korea, evidenced in part by military forces being built up in proximity to North Korea.
Source? Do you have any more details?
A lot of that has to do with Chinese fears of North Korea collapsing, and a large stream of refugees crossing over into China, as well as fears of general instability in NK if/when it collapses. The Chinese sure wouldn't mind having more of a buffer between them and a reunited Korea.
I currently live and work in Seoul, and I can't say that the Koreans seem all that worried about the upcoming launch. I've only heard about it through the BBC, and even at work all of my coworkers seem more concerned about baseball games and other various sports. That's not to say that people aren't worried about it, because for all I know it's just not something they talk about in public. Then again, I don't speak Korean, so they might be talking about it and I wouldn't know. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to be a big deal currently, and life continues.
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by ray245 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The trouble with China is that they may say one thing, but do something else. N. Korea to them, and has been since before the Korean War, a buffer against the United States and its allies. As a result, I would be hesitant to assume that they will ever hang the N. Koreans dry. Their immediate concern is a flood of refugees from N. Korea.
I would think that China is able to realise when is the game of geo-politics getting too risky for their comfort. Having a buffer state that basically acts as canon folder for China to stall any military advance is one thing, letting the region esclate into a potential war with Nuclear exchange is another thing altogether. What interest me if what will the successor of Kim Jong-Ill do with their nuclear program( if the program still exist, but if it doesn't, I have to wonder if North Korea would seek to build another Nuclear bomb once again).
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Re: North Korean Missile Test Preparations...

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Count Chocula wrote:]It fell through because South Korea's economic and defense center is Seoul, regardless of the factory locations of Hyundai, Kia and LG. If I recall correctly, we still have 30,000 US troops stationed on the North Korea/South Korea border as well, since the US is still at war with North Korea (albeit in a state of armistice), and it just wouldn't be cricket to leave those troops as a firebreak without something - like the seat of government - to stiffen their spines!
All US troops are gone from the boarder, we shifted them all well south and out of range of artillery fire several years ago.

In addition, if the North Korean Army does break through the border it'll march straight for Seoul regardless of the government's location, and once they're through the South Korean government becomes immaterial until the North Koreans are driven back and defeated.
Breakthrough is relative, the North Koreans easily still overrun the main line of resistance a couple kilometers south of the DMZ, but they’d just keep hitting line after line of defenses behind it. The terrain is pretty perfect for defence, and if you look on Google you can see the 60 foot thick anti tank walls and huge ditches the South has layered through the valleys.

Seoul hasn’t been in much danger of actually being captured for a long time (1980s maybe), its just too ridiculously densely built up for ANY army to make much progress capturing it in less then several months. War plans have long called for a couple ROK divisions to hold the place as a pocket, while we let the Norks overextend themselves trying to encircle it. Then we exploit full ROK mobilization of manpower (they used to have a 4 million man army reserve force, bigger then the entire US military) and US deployment of more air, armored and marine forces to cut them to pieces.

Now even an encirclement is longer realistic, it would just take too much time against too much firepower, and it would be impossible for North Korea to commit its entire army to an attack owing to lack of fuel and other supplies (except ammo, no shortage of that). The absurd urbanization of the ROK helps all the more. The Norks would just have no place to drive all those tanks, except down nice paved roads on which they would be sitting ducks.

What could happen though is North Korea makes a more limited advance, only going 20-30 miles south, overrunning several smaller South Korean cities and bringing all its myriad of artillery within range of Seoul, not just the biggest 170mm guns and 240mm rocket launchers (plus of course the ballistic missiles, which easily hit any point in the country). The hope would be then that the ROK would just collapse politically faced with its capital being torn apart, tens of thousands of civilian dead in a day, and the growing by the second threat that North Korea will use chemical or nuclear weapons, and thus demand the withdrawal of all US forces followed by negotiations with the North.

Ironically both North Korea and South Korea are thought to seek a two state, one government solution. North Korea doesn’t want to just make the ROK completely part of itself, because they know they’d destroy its economy, which they obviously would want to benefit from. The ROK meanwhile doesn’t want to just have to unify with the North, because that also would destroy them economically, even with the capitalists in charge. So the only long term hope is that both sides can slowly work towards a middle ground… but the Norks are just so damn crazy they can’t accept aid or joint development projects without it becoming a mortal threat to the stability of its feudal government. We can onlyhope that maybe, just maybe when Kim-Jong dies someone in the North is able to gather enough power to allow actual change. I'm not holding my breath.
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