The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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In the summer of 1933, just as they will do on Thursday, heads of government and their finance ministers met in London to talk about a global economic crisis. They accomplished little and went home to battle the crisis in their own ways.

More than any other country, Germany — Nazi Germany — then set out on a serious stimulus program. The government built up the military, expanded the autobahn, put up stadiums for the 1936 Berlin Olympics and built monuments to the Nazi Party across Munich and Berlin.

The economic benefits of this vast works program never flowed to most workers, because fascism doesn’t look kindly on collective bargaining. But Germany did escape the Great Depression faster than other countries. Corporate profits boomed, and unemployment sank (and not because of slave labor, which didn’t become widespread until later). Harold James, an economic historian, says that the young liberal economists studying under John Maynard Keynes in the 1930s began to debate whether Hitler had solved unemployment.

No sane person enjoys mixing nuance and Nazis, but this bit of economic history has a particular importance this week. In the run-up to the G-20 meeting, European leaders have resisted calls for more government spending. Last week, the European Union president, Mirek Topolanek, echoed a line from AC/DC — whom he had just heard in concert — and described the Obama administration’s stimulus plan as “a road to hell.”

Here in the United States, many people are understandably wondering whether the $800 billion stimulus program will make much of a difference. They want to know: Does stimulus work? Fortunately, this is one economic question that’s been answered pretty clearly in the last century.

Yes, stimulus works.

When governments have taken aggressive steps to soften an economic decline, they have succeeded. The Germans did it in the 1930s. Franklin D. Roosevelt did so more haltingly, and had more halting results. Even the limp Japanese recovery plan of the 1990s makes the case. Although dithering over a bank rescue kept Japan in a slump, government spending on roads and bridges made things better than they otherwise would have been.

No matter what happens in London on Thursday, President Obama and other world leaders are sure to claim the meeting as a success. (“I do not regard the economic conference as a failure,” Roosevelt said in 1933.)

But if the meeting is going to be an actual success, it will have to do more than put a happy face on trans-Atlantic disagreements. It will need to begin nudging the discussion about stimulus toward a more accurate reading of history.

The Americans and Europeans aren’t really as far apart as Mr. Topolanek’s AC/DC homage suggests. Europe is doing less than the United States, but the gap isn’t huge. It just seems so because European stimulus tends to arrive quietly, from existing safety net programs. In this country, where the safety net is weaker, stimulus comes largely from new laws.

Yet the rhetoric from Europe — even the more subdued recent remarks, like those of Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany — still creates a problem. Stimulus skepticism today will make it harder to pass more stimulus tomorrow. And more will probably be needed.

George Soros, the billionaire investor who was born in Budapest and works in New York, came to Washington last week and captured both the problem and the potential for a solution. “I think they can be brought around,” he said of the Europeans. “I am actually hopeful something constructive can happen.”

The objections to stimulus tend to come in two forms: Its costs are too high, and its benefits too small.

Mr. Topolanek and German officials have been pressing the first argument. They say that the additional government spending can lead to inflation and government debt. The Weimar Republic of the 1920s, where inflation helped lead to Hitler’s rise, casts a long shadow.

Stimulus opponents here in the United States — mainly Congressional Republicans (though not, tellingly, Republican governors of some large states) — have been warning about debt, too. But they have also been making the second argument. When the government spends money, they say, it simply displaces spending by the private sector. Republicans on Capitol Hill have taken to citing a recent book by the journalist Amity Shlaes, “The Forgotten Man,” which claims the New Deal didn’t work.

Theoretically, neither of these arguments is crazy. But they don’t have much evidence on their side.

The best takedown of Ms. Shlaes’s thesis came from Eric Rauchway, a historian, who pointed out that her favorite statistic did not count people employed by New Deal programs to be employed. Excluding the effects of the medicine, the patient is as sick as ever!

When Roosevelt stuck to a stimulus program, unemployment fell markedly, and the biggest stimulus of all — World War II — did the rest. It’s true that economic models say the economy shouldn’t work this way. When resources are sitting idle, businesses should find a way to use them profitably. But they often don’t.

People become irrationally pessimistic during a downturn. They are driven by what Keynes called animal spirits. Only government can typically change the dynamic.

Could the government spending eventually lead to inflation and crippling debts? Absolutely. But the mistakes of the last 80 years have gone in the other direction. During the Great Depression, Japan’s lost decade, the Asian financial crisis and even the last 18 months, governments didn’t act aggressively enough. Deflation and lack of growth ended up being the real risks.

These are precisely the risks facing the world economy now. In Spain, prices are already falling. Layoffs are still mounting around the world. Financial firms have more losses to acknowledge.

Given the diminished standing of the United States, Mr. Obama won’t be able to get the Europeans to fall in line behind him this week. But he can still make progress. He and the American delegation can, in gentle terms, ask the Europeans to live up to their own standard — and remind them of their self-interest.

Two weeks ago, responding to criticism, an executive of the European Central Bank wrote a letter to an Italian newspaper claiming, “fiscal stimulus in European countries is wholly comparable to that seen in the United States.” That simply isn’t true, as the chart at right makes clear. The difference amounts to about $200 billion over three years.

Because the global economy is in many ways integrated, Europe can benefit from American stimulus without pulling its own weight. But because the global economy isn’t completely integrated, European stimulus would still help Europe more than anywhere else. And that presents the American delegation with perhaps its most persuasive case.

Right now, Eastern Europe appears to be one of the world’s most vulnerable places. It is a relatively poor region, where the population is disaffected and where the economy is shrinking rapidly. In both Estonia and Latvia, the gross domestic product fell 10 percent last year.

At the G-20, the leaders of the richer European countries will be asking the world to help Eastern Europe. By all means, the world should help. But Europe should reconsider its part, too.
I love how the guy points out the Nazi Stimulus programs of the 1930s -- while leaving out the actual effects of them -- by the late 1930s, Nazi Germany was essentially broke; it had to begin it's rapacious program of annexation and then invasion; first Czechslovakia, and then Poland, and then the rest of Europe, in order to maintain it's economic stability by looting Europe of anything that wasn't nailed down too tightly.

Likewise; the stimulus of World War II had a bad effect in 1945 -- there was a huge contraction, as scores of war-time contracts were cancelled across the board; and workers were laid off from wartime factories which didn't need to turn out a B-24 a day.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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The guy's a fucking idiot. It's not monetary policy or "animal spirits" or the other usual crap that caused the Great Depression & Japan's lost couple decades, the problem is DEBT. When you run up too much debt and you can't support the debt levels, you go kaboom, the economy comes to a sucking stop and crashes, and does not recover until the debt is paid off or defaulted. That's why we can't stimulate our way out of the current mess, every stimulus dollar comes from borrowing, which is debt. It's just like using one credit card to pay off another, you can play the game for a while but in the end it always kills you. We got here because of too much debt, we can't get out by taking on even more debt. Anyone who thinks we can is a fucking idiot.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Even beyond that his examples mainly focussed on massive infrastructure improvements on teh level of the Autobahn and the Hoover Dam, not the massive tax cuts and marginal infrastructure improvements from the most recent stimulus.

Don't worry though, I'm sure the next Stimiulus Bill will address everything the first one missed.

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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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aerius wrote:The guy's a fucking idiot. It's not monetary policy or "animal spirits" or the other usual crap that caused the Great Depression & Japan's lost couple decades, the problem is DEBT. When you run up too much debt and you can't support the debt levels, you go kaboom, the economy comes to a sucking stop and crashes, and does not recover until the debt is paid off or defaulted. That's why we can't stimulate our way out of the current mess, every stimulus dollar comes from borrowing, which is debt. It's just like using one credit card to pay off another, you can play the game for a while but in the end it always kills you. We got here because of too much debt, we can't get out by taking on even more debt. Anyone who thinks we can is a fucking idiot.
Grahhh fucking idiots! Rargh! Rage! Fucking idiots!

The debt is a medium/long-term issue that needs to be addressed preferably with a healthy economy that can handle the federal government cutting programs and support. We don't have that economy right now.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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MKSheppard wrote:Likewise; the stimulus of World War II had a bad effect in 1945 -- there was a huge contraction, as scores of war-time contracts were cancelled across the board; and workers were laid off from wartime factories which didn't need to turn out a B-24 a day.
That's true, but relatively speaking, it wasn't as bad as it could have been - the recession that Europe got hit with in 1921 from de-mobilization was, if I recall correctly, significantly worse than the recession that the US got hit with after World War 2.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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aerius wrote:The guy's a fucking idiot. It's not monetary policy or "animal spirits" or the other usual crap that caused the Great Depression & Japan's lost couple decades, the problem is DEBT. When you run up too much debt and you can't support the debt levels, you go kaboom, the economy comes to a sucking stop and crashes, and does not recover until the debt is paid off or defaulted. That's why we can't stimulate our way out of the current mess, every stimulus dollar comes from borrowing, which is debt. It's just like using one credit card to pay off another, you can play the game for a while but in the end it always kills you. We got here because of too much debt, we can't get out by taking on even more debt. Anyone who thinks we can is a fucking idiot.
You're an Austrian School-ite now? This is -exactly- the Austrian Party Line.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Shep, you're simply off. The early-on stimulative Nazi economic programs did help bring down unemployment and increase corporate profits and production. The fact they later threw everything over the side in the name of MORE REARMAMENT NOW and NO DEPENDENCE ON ANY OTHER TRADE does not refute the early civilian programs. Hitler even had to get a rid of his Finance Minister and hand things over in 1937 to Georing's Four Year Plan because the real economists would not go along with it. If they initially sane public works and stimulative programs were followed up with open trade and without completely unproductive price and wage controls and rearmament, there is no reason the Germans had to bankrupt themselves. Furthermore, their lunatic anti-Semitic policies got them sanctioned by major economic players like the U.S. and UK. That was not a necessary part of a stimulative program either. The Nazis did alright when they were trying to win the "battle for work", but by the time they set themselves in their insane conquest ambitions, all the advantages were lost in a sinkhole of excessive debt and autarky.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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LMSx wrote:The debt is a medium/long-term issue that needs to be addressed preferably with a healthy economy that can handle the federal government cutting programs and support. We don't have that economy right now.
10 years ago it was a medium/long-term issue. Now, it's a we better do something about it fast before the bond market collapses and fucks over everything issue. We don't have the luxury of time anymore.


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This is a chart of total debt to GDP for the US, the Great Depression started with the big crash in 1929, but it was the bond market failures starting in 1931 which cut off debt market funding, ramped interest rates sky high, and made the Great Depression as bad as it was. Almost every business today relies on credit, rolling over loans, and bonds issues for their day to day operations, the credit market has to stay liquid and interest rates have to remain reasonable. In a bond market failure the interest rates go sky high, as in 30% a year, when this happens the vast majority of companies can't issue bonds nor roll over existing loans without going bankrupt, their funding disappears and they go kaboom.

We're currently sitting at around 370% of GDP right now, well above Great Depression levels. We're already seeing government bond auction failures in the UK & Germany, which in the Great Depression started about a year ahead of the US. When the failures start happening more often you get a collapse, and then it's 1932, for real.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're an Austrian School-ite now? This is -exactly- the Austrian Party Line.
Nope. The Austrian school & Keynesians are both wrong. Both make assumptions which don't match reality, and as models, neither of them works.

What I'm probably closest to is Hyman Minsky's credit-money system, which has been refined and expanded upon by Steve Keen. A paper on Minky's theorem can be found here. A simpler version & how it applies to the current situation can be seen on this page.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Um, aerius, in your chart, debt maxed out in 1933 at the end of the recession that started the Great Depression. How does that support your hypothesis that excessive debt causes recessions? It makes more sense that debt rose because of the recession.

On the Nazi Germany discussion, the Nazis brought down unemployment in part because of the fiscal stimulus, but also in part because they simply contracted the work force by kicking women, Jews, and other undesirables out of it, and also by Gestapoizing the unions. If we turned into a police state that encouraged women to stay home and have babies and carried away union leaders in the night, we'd probably have higher employment, too.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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He never said excessive debt causes recessions. He said excessive debt prevents us from stimulating our way out of this recession, and the same was true of the Great Depression and Japan's Lost Decade.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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He also said that excessive debt caused the Great Depression and Japan's Lost Decade, and it's that assertion I'm contesting.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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That graph appears to state that in the middle of a debt and bond crisis FDR takes office, starts his stimulative New Deal spending, debt as % of GDP instantly falls, and we get out of the Depression. And, I assume through lack of presented post-New Deal bond crises, the bond markets do ok.

I'm not understanding the bad news here with regard to Obama's stimulus. Why doesn't the graph suggest aggressive stimulus can actually fix the debt/GDP ratio?
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Surlethe wrote:Um, aerius, in your chart, debt maxed out in 1933 at the end of the recession that started the Great Depression. How does that support your hypothesis that excessive debt causes recessions? It makes more sense that debt rose because of the recession.
The excessive debt is what destabilizes the system and makes it unsustainable, this causes a downturn which crashes the GDP and ramps up the debt:GDP ratio, which is made worse if the government is trying to spend borrow its way out of the downturn. The point where the debt hits the tipping point and goes parabolic is known as the "Minsky moment", in the GD this was 1931 when the bond market dislocated and we see the start of the big spike in debt:GDP.

Or on a more personal level, let's say you have a car loan and credit card payments totaling $450 a month, and your take home pay is $500 a month. Let's say the total loan is for $12k, so on a yearly basis your debt:income is 200%. You buy a computer on your CC, putting your total debt to $14k (233% debt:income) and your monthly bill to $500. Problem now is your living expense plus your debt payments is greater than your take home pay, your debt now ramps up since you can no longer pay it down and your debt:income ramps up until you hit your credit limit and you default and go bankrupt. Let's say your credit limit is $20k total, after which you default & bankrupt, at that point your debt:income is 333%, but you were totally fucked at soon as you hit 233%.

That's pretty much what happened in the Great Depression, by 1929 the debt had reached a point where it couldn't be serviced and was choking of economic growth, which led to the economy being destabilized and the big kaboom. If the debts had been paid off and/or defaulted right then the depression wouldn't have been as serious, but that didn't happen, we kept piling on debt until the bond market went "fuck this shit" in 1931, which is basically the same as the credit card company jacking up your interest rate from 20% to 50%, now the debt becomes truly unpayable and it ramps up until the credit limit is hit, at which point the debt gets defaulted and the debt:income ratio starts going back down. In the Great depression the "credit limit" was hit at 1933, the peak of the debt:GDP, after that the debts started defaulting faster than they could be racked up which brought the ratio back down.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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LMSx wrote:That graph appears to state that in the middle of a debt and bond crisis FDR takes office, starts his stimulative New Deal spending, debt as % of GDP instantly falls, and we get out of the Depression. And, I assume through lack of presented post-New Deal bond crises, the bond markets do ok.
The debts cleared mainly because of mass defaults & bankruptcies, not new spending & stimulus.
I'm not understanding the bad news here with regard to Obama's stimulus. Why doesn't the graph suggest aggressive stimulus can actually fix the debt/GDP ratio?
See the chart entitled "Growth of GDP per dollar of new debt" on this page. That was written 3 years ago, as of right now the growth is around 10 cents per dollar of new debt. Borrowing $10 of debt to get $1 of growth ain't gonna fix the debt:GDP ratio.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by Ender »

Wait, the graph tracks debt as a percentage of GDP to show the correlation between spiking debt and economic collapse. But when the economy collapses, GDP will drop, inflating the percentage statistic. When the denominator decreases, the quotient increases. Maybe I'm missing something here, so please clarify as to what. Because if I saw that graph in any other publication, I'd hold it as an example of lying with statistics.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Aren't Keynesian multipliers talking about that, exactly? The idea underpinning Obama's plan, that certain government spending would have a stimulative effect greater then the dollar spent. The site you linked appears to toss *all* spending into a big pile then compare it to GDP.

If the multiplier idea is wrong, that seems awfully important just to ignore and skip over, for a blanket "10 cents on the dollar" declaration.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

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Reading about stuff like this really discourages me. On the one hand, from what Aerius says there is a way out of this mess of debt, default and bankruptcy. I don't understand much of how that works, but seeing that the US debt:GDP ratio went down once upon a time and there were many years of healthy economic growth before this latest binge of borrowing gives me some hope. On the other hand, default and bankruptcy isn't going to be pretty when it happens. My one hope is that such a huge economic disaster will force certain aspects of American - indeed, consumer culture as a whole - to shape up. In the meantime, I'll just try to live and survive.

I have a question though. Just how would default and bankruptcy work on a national level? I think I understand the effects, since debt is a source of money growth and many entities keep debt paper as assets on their books, hence inflating the money supply. When those debts are defaulted, that money disappears overnight and we have deflation - a contraction of the money supply (or the overall economy). GDP is a measure of how much the money supply grows per year. But does that really get rid of all that bad debt? And what would it take to get the credit markets flowing again after that? I mean, we've seen many of these mega-banks hindered by bad debt long after the foreclosures and defaults have occurred.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by Skgoa »

Even if we ignore the dubious effectiveness of stimulus packages, I am really amazed how americans can complain about europeans not stimulizing their economies.
NOTE: Rant following, there is a tl;dr, though.
Some examples: The german state/government effectively bailed out all those Landesbanken (state owned banks) that lost money in the mortgage crisis simply because they ARE state owned. They passed a law that basicly lets them nationalize Hypo Real Estate, wich is afaik the only big bank to be in bankruptcy threatening trouble due to the crisis. There is also the new Abwrackprämie, wich rewards you for buying a new car. Since it was such a success, the cabinet recently decided to increase this programm from 1.5 to 3 (or was it 4?) billion euro. The emergency budgets of the IMF and EU (you know, those instituisions whose job it actually is to improve the economy) were increased. And lets not forget WHO made it a head of government level diplomatic problem that EU countries were giving Airbus cheap credit so they could build/design new aircraft models a couple of years ago. A "level playing field" and all that... :wink:
We are already doing what we think is sensible in this situation. Its not our fault that the US government felt it had to bail out so many companies, we simply didn't have this much of an economic meltdown. Our people are not nearly as deep in debt, our banks "only" lost a sum of money in the financial crisis that doesn't amount to more than a rounding error compaired to what happened in the US. We are already putting massive amounts of money into infrastucture, research(e.g. most german universities are public and take only very little fees) and our economy. Some of that directly, but a big part actually being alloted through the multitude of EU economy improvement programs. (anecdotal evidence: the company my mother is sales manager of got a big and millions of euros costing machine basicly for free.) We also have a functioning social security net and had higher unimployment rates to begin with.
The only big problem (well, other than our "representatives" trying to abolish civil rights and democracy...) germany has to face is that americans aren't buying our goods anymore. Its not as big a problem for us as it is for china, though. And since we are german we actually saw it coming and were already in a "we are going to loose the title of export world champion to china" mood* anyways. :lol: We actually got to keep that title for at least one more year (as in: this one), since decreased american spending hurts the chinese so much more than us and "Made in Germany" gets much better brand recognition than "Made in China". To be honest I actually think the most effective stimulus package for germany would be giving every american a voucher (maybe 100 or 200 dollars, since I don't think we could afford more) that they can use to buy only german products.;)

_____________
* thats worse than "we are not going to win the football world championship" and "the government is thinking about a speed limit on our Autobahnen", though slightly better than "we are all gonna DIE!" and "they will only sell american pisswater Budweiser in german stadiums during the '06 football world championship". :mrgreen:


tl;dr EU economies didn't implode the way the american did and we think that it would be better to improve them the way our security nets, programms and institiutions are actually DESIGNED to do.


Now that I have gotten that rant out of my system :lol: here is my take on why the US citizens/media suddenly went crazy about europeans "not doing enough":
The crisis has taken a big toll on the american people. Many are loosing their jobs, their homes, all stability in their lifes. And many many more are in danger of that happening to them. The US government absolutely had to get money back into the financial markets, thus it simply gave unimaginably huge amounts of money away, that everybody knows will have to be paid back through taxes sooner or later. So they look for someone to blame and indeed they blame everyone in turn: the government, big business, the media, people who got credits even though they could not afford them, the government... But their situation only gets worse and they can't find any one single person or clearly defined group that is responsible. And THEN they see the guys on the other side of the ocean NOT hurting as much and NOT spending ridiculous amounts of money. I think its quite natural that americans percieve that to be unfair (even though its pretty childish), since its allways easier to blame/be angry at people who don't belong to your clique/circle/tribe/nation/whatever.
As it seems to be cathartic for americans, I'm just gonna go ahead and confess: yes, france is in congress with the devil, burn her! WITCH! WITCH WITCH! :roll:
I guess we are going to see more editorials about ungrateful europeans draging their feet and I don't think they will be helpful in any way. You guys have lost most of the "good will" that you had stockpiled in the Clinton years and at the moment you are burning through it faster than GM is burning through money. :wink:
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by Edi »

Skgoa:

Paragraphs are your friend. So is coherency. I read through that and there are some points in there, but the incoherent formulation coupled with the lack of paragraphs means its almost unreadable.

N&P has a higher standard of expectations from posters, which you should keep in mind for the future.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I think I understand the 29-31-33 graph and the implications for our current situation, correct me if I missed it Aerius.

In 1929 the stock market crashed, but it wasn't until 1931 that we see the start of the spike as the bond markets did not dislocate until then. The peak was reached at 1933 when we had reached our credit limit and the defaults began eliminating the debt.

Taking that model and applying it to our situation. The stock market "crashed" in late 2007 and as of yet the bond market has not dislocated as credit is still available. Using the previous trend as a guide this would mean that we have not yet started to begin the climb to the peak and our potential debt:GDP percentage "credit limit" could be double or more our current level.

What this actually means I am not entirely sure, probably somewhere between "Oh shit" and a barter economy.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by aerius »

Ender wrote:Wait, the graph tracks debt as a percentage of GDP to show the correlation between spiking debt and economic collapse. But when the economy collapses, GDP will drop, inflating the percentage statistic. When the denominator decreases, the quotient increases. Maybe I'm missing something here, so please clarify as to what. Because if I saw that graph in any other publication, I'd hold it as an example of lying with statistics.
Debt:GDP for a nation is roughly analogous to the debt:income ratio for an individual. Doesn't really matter if the debt's going up or the GDP's going down, or both. It's a measure of the ability to support and service the debt.

So let's say you have $20k of debt and $10k of income a year, of which $5k is available to pay off the debts. Factor in interest payments for the debt and you should be able to clear the debt in 5-6 years. Let's say the debt remains the same $20k, but you got a pay cut at your job and only pull in $6k a year, leaving $1k to pay the debt. Thanks to the joys of compounding interest it'll take you around 25-30 years to clear your debt now. And then you get another pay cut, to $5k, which covers your living expenses and nothing else. You now have no ability to pay off your debts, and you will go bankrupt and default after the debts pile up to your credit limit.

It's more complicated for nations but the same general idea applies. When there's too much debt for not enough income, the nation loses its ablity to pay the debts. It can try to keep borrowing (which is what we're doing) until the bond market refuses to buy the debts, which skyrockets all interest rates and leaves the government unable to fund its expenses unless it wants to use the Zimbabwe model & print by the trillions. Or the government is forced to tax the crap out of everyone to raise the funds required for debt service, this will put quite a few people & business into bankruptcy since we're so dependant on low taxes, at least here in North America. Either way, or in a combination of both, the economy gets choked off hard and revenue for paying the debts drops off further while the debt itself likely continues to ramp up. The ability to support & service the debt goes down the crapper until the debt is defaulted & cleared out.
Prannon wrote:I have a question though. Just how would default and bankruptcy work on a national level? I think I understand the effects, since debt is a source of money growth and many entities keep debt paper as assets on their books, hence inflating the money supply. When those debts are defaulted, that money disappears overnight and we have deflation - a contraction of the money supply (or the overall economy). GDP is a measure of how much the money supply grows per year. But does that really get rid of all that bad debt? And what would it take to get the credit markets flowing again after that? I mean, we've seen many of these mega-banks hindered by bad debt long after the foreclosures and defaults have occurred.
Yup, that's more or less it. When the debt defaults then the lender who's holding it as an asset writes it off and inserts a big zero, and the borrower does the same on the "owing" side of his balance sheet. This goes on for a while and results in a ton of bankruptcies as all the bad debts and phantom assets are zeroed out. Eventually we're left only with the debts which are sustainable and can be paid off, at which point the credit markets return to business as usual.

With regards to the mega-banks, their problem is they're insolvent. Because of this they're still holding those bad debts on their books as "assets", if they wrote off the debts as they should the banks would have a negative value even with Enron style accounting and get taken down by the FDIC. The "assets" are worth zero, or pretty damn close to zero, but the banks still hold them on their books near "full value".
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by Surlethe »

aerius wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Um, aerius, in your chart, debt maxed out in 1933 at the end of the recession that started the Great Depression. How does that support your hypothesis that excessive debt causes recessions? It makes more sense that debt rose because of the recession.
The excessive debt is what destabilizes the system and makes it unsustainable, this causes a downturn which crashes the GDP and ramps up the debt:GDP ratio, which is made worse if the government is trying to spend borrow its way out of the downturn. The point where the debt hits the tipping point and goes parabolic is known as the "Minsky moment", in the GD this was 1931 when the bond market dislocated and we see the start of the big spike in debt:GDP.

Or on a more personal level, let's say you have a car loan and credit card payments totaling $450 a month, and your take home pay is $500 a month. Let's say the total loan is for $12k, so on a yearly basis your debt:income is 200%. You buy a computer on your CC, putting your total debt to $14k (233% debt:income) and your monthly bill to $500. Problem now is your living expense plus your debt payments is greater than your take home pay, your debt now ramps up since you can no longer pay it down and your debt:income ramps up until you hit your credit limit and you default and go bankrupt. Let's say your credit limit is $20k total, after which you default & bankrupt, at that point your debt:income is 333%, but you were totally fucked at soon as you hit 233%.
Except that the downturn wasn't caused by excessive debt, it is generally agreed that the downturn was caused by the Fed's 1928-9 contractionary monetary policy. Besides, if a certain debt:GDP ratio is a trigger for collapse, why don't we see collapses whenever debt:GDP passes 200%? And why do we see collapses when debt:GDP is far below 200%? What sort of macroeconomic phenomenon is the equivalent of the credit limit?
That's pretty much what happened in the Great Depression, by 1929 the debt had reached a point where it couldn't be serviced and was choking of economic growth, which led to the economy being destabilized and the big kaboom. If the debts had been paid off and/or defaulted right then the depression wouldn't have been as serious, but that didn't happen, we kept piling on debt until the bond market went "fuck this shit" in 1931, which is basically the same as the credit card company jacking up your interest rate from 20% to 50%, now the debt becomes truly unpayable and it ramps up until the credit limit is hit, at which point the debt gets defaulted and the debt:income ratio starts going back down. In the Great depression the "credit limit" was hit at 1933, the peak of the debt:GDP, after that the debts started defaulting faster than they could be racked up which brought the ratio back down.
The bond market "dislocating" sounds more like a reaction in the bond market to exterior economic conditions than a fundamental cause of the Great Depression. More particularly, high deflationary expectations and the destruction of so much money and economic activity would certainly push investors out of (nominally-valued) bond markets, which would cause interest rates to skyrocket.

Edit: And anyway, the US government didn't default on its debt in the 1930s. It did raise taxes (a reaction to the bond market?), which is one reason the Great Depression was so severe and prolonged.
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Re: The NYT on historical Stimulus Programs.

Post by J »

Surlethe wrote:Except that the downturn wasn't caused by excessive debt, it is generally agreed that the downturn was caused by the Fed's 1928-9 contractionary monetary policy.
You mean generally agreed upon by Keynesians & Freidman-ites, yes? In his book Competition and monopoly in the Federal Reserve System, 1914-1951 as well as his 1989 research paper on the effectiveness of the Fed's open market operations, professor Mark Toma argues that the Fed's policies had very little effect on the money supply. This is supported by the St. Louis Fed's monetary base statistics, the monetary base fell a mere 1.7% from the beginning of 1928 to the end of 1929.
Besides, if a certain debt:GDP ratio is a trigger for collapse, why don't we see collapses whenever debt:GDP passes 200%? And why do we see collapses when debt:GDP is far below 200%? What sort of macroeconomic phenomenon is the equivalent of the credit limit?
If I knew the complete answer I'd have a Nobel prize. But one of the key pieces in the puzzle is interest rates, for instance "easy Al" Greenspan and "helicopter" Ben have thus far managed to keep interest rates near zero as has the Bank of Japan for the past 15-20 years, this has enabled us to carry greater amounts of debt in relation to GDP. For example, at an interest rate of 1%, you can take out a 20 year mortgage that's over twice as large as one with the same term where the interest rate is 10%. And the same is true if you're a company or nation selling bonds, lower rates translates to an ability to float more bonds issues, and hence a greater amount of debt. Same with credit cards, car loans, lines of credit and so forth.
The bond market "dislocating" sounds more like a reaction in the bond market to exterior economic conditions than a fundamental cause of the Great Depression. More particularly, high deflationary expectations and the destruction of so much money and economic activity would certainly push investors out of (nominally-valued) bond markets, which would cause interest rates to skyrocket.
I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin, the dislocation was a reaction to market conditions and it's also a positive feedback mechanism which made the depression great and lasting. The bond market doesn't dislocate by itself for no reason, but if it does let go will take down everything else with it by driving lending costs through the roof and freezing the flow of credit.
Edit: And anyway, the US government didn't default on its debt in the 1930s.
And thank god for that, the US government was smart enough to "ringfence" its debt and keep it clean, ensuring that it would be able to secure buyers for its bond issues at reasonable interest rates.
It did raise taxes (a reaction to the bond market?), which is one reason the Great Depression was so severe and prolonged.
Yup. Taxation revenue is income, the money needed to pay off the debts (remember, T-bills & other government bonds are debts) has to flow in or the bond market sulks, refuses to bid, and demands higher interest rates. Think of it this way, if you're a borrower with a well-demonstrated ability to pay, the bank will give you the prime rate or very close to it. If you've had or have income flow issues, or the bank thinks you will in the near future, it will hand out a smaller loan (equivalent to bond buyers reducing/refusing to bid) and charge you higher interest rates.

Coming back to the present, let's postulate a hypothetical scenario (RAR!) where the government plans to run $3 trillion deficits for the next 10 years which means it will need to sell $3 trillion in T-bills & notes every year. The bonds buyers take a look at projected GDP growth & income (or lack thereof) and have a fit, they conclude there's a good chance the government will not be able to pay off the bonds in full, so they don't bid. Which leaves three choices for the government, buy its own debt (wheee! printing!!), offering a much higher interest rate on the bonds to get the buyers to bite, or raising taxes and restructuring its budget so that it can meet the payments.
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