The High Cost of Poverty

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The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Lonestar »

Not sure if it goes here, OT, or SLAM. I saw this in the post yesterday and I've been debating with a Libertarian that asserts that pure capitalism "creates more freedom" than socialism(while being unable to distinguish between socialism and communism, it seems).

Interesting article.

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Poor? Pay Up.
Having Little Money Often Means No Car, No Washing Machine, No Checking Account And No Break From Fees and High Prices

By DeNeen L. Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 18, 2009

You have to be rich to be poor.

That's what some people who have never lived below the poverty line don't understand.


Put it another way: The poorer you are, the more things cost. More in money, time, hassle, exhaustion, menace. This is a fact of life that reality television and magazines don't often explain.

So we'll explain it here. Consider this a primer on the economics of poverty.

"The poor pay more for a gallon of milk; they pay more on a capital basis for inferior housing," says Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.). "The poor and 100 million who are struggling for the middle class actually end up paying more for transportation, for housing, for health care, for mortgages. They get steered to subprime lending. . . . The poor pay more for things middle-class America takes for granted."

Poverty 101: We'll start with the basics.

Like food: You don't have a car to get to a supermarket, much less to Costco or Trader Joe's, where the middle class goes to save money. You don't have three hours to take the bus. So you buy groceries at the corner store, where a gallon of milk costs an extra dollar.

A loaf of bread there costs you $2.99 for white. For wheat, it's $3.79. The clerk behind the counter tells you the gallon of leaking milk in the bottom of the back cooler is $4.99. She holds up four fingers to clarify. The milk is beneath the shelf that holds beef bologna for $3.79. A pound of butter sells for $4.49. In the back of the store are fruits and vegetables. The green peppers are shriveled, the bananas are more brown than yellow, the oranges are picked over.

(At a Safeway on Bradley Boulevard in Bethesda, the wheat bread costs $1.19, and white bread is on sale for $1. A gallon of milk costs $3.49 -- $2.99 if you buy two gallons. A pound of butter is $2.49. Beef bologna is on sale, two packages for $5.)

Prices in urban corner stores are almost always higher, economists say. And sometimes, prices in supermarkets in poorer neighborhoods are higher. Many of these stores charge more because the cost of doing business in some neighborhoods is higher. "First, they are probably paying more on goods because they don't get the low wholesale price that bigger stores get," says Bradley R. Schiller, a professor emeritus at American University and the author of "The Economics of Poverty and Discrimination."

"The real estate is higher. The fact that volume is low means fewer sales per worker. They make fewer dollars of revenue per square foot of space. They don't end up making more money. Every corner grocery store wishes they had profits their customers think they have."

According to the Census Bureau, more than 37 million people in the country live below the poverty line. The poor know these facts of life. These facts become their lives.

Time is money, they say, and the poor pay more in time, too.

When you are poor, you don't have the luxury of throwing a load into the washing machine and then taking your morning jog while it cycles. You wait until Monday afternoon, when the laundromat is most likely to be empty, and you put all of that laundry from four kids into four heaps, bundle it in sheets, load a cart and drag it to the corner.

"If I had my choice, I would have a washer and a dryer," says Nya Oti, 37, a food-service worker who lives in Brightwood. She stands on her toes to reach the top of a washer in the laundromat on Georgia Avenue NW and pours in detergent. The four loads of laundry will take her about two hours. A soap opera is playing loudly on the television hanging from the ceiling. A man comes in talking to himself. He drags his loads of dirty sheets and mattress pads and dumps them one by one into the machines next to Oti.

She does not seem to notice. She is talking about other costs of poverty. "My car broke down this weekend, and it took a lot of time getting on the bus, standing on the bus stop. It was a waste of a whole lot of times. Waiting. The transfer to the different bus."

When she has her car, she drives to Maryland, where she shops for her groceries at Shoppers Food Warehouse or Save-A-Lot, where she says some items are cheaper and some are higher. "They have a way of getting you in there on a bargain. You go in for something cheap, but something else is more expensive." She buys bags of oranges or apples, but not the organic kind. "Organic is too much," she says.

"When you are poor, you substitute time for money," says Randy Albelda, an economics professor at the University of Massachusetts at Boston. "You have to work a lot of hours and still not make a lot of money. You get squeezed, and your money is squeezed."

The poor pay more in hassle: the calls from the bill collectors, the landlord, the utility company. So they spend money to avoid the hassle. The poor pay for caller identification because it gives them peace of mind to weed out calls from bill collectors.

The rich have direct deposit for their paychecks. The poor have check-cashing and payday loan joints, which cost time and money. Payday advance companies say they are providing an essential service to people who most need them. Their critics say they are preying on people who are the most "economically vulnerable."

"As you've seen with the financial services industry, if people can cut a profit, they do it," Blumenauer says. "The poor pay more for financial services. A lot of people who are 'unbanked' pay $3 for a money order to pay their electric bill. They pay a 2 percent check-cashing fee because they don't have bank services. The reasons? Part of it is lack of education. But part of it is because people target them. There is evidence that credit-card mills have recently started trolling for the poor. They are targeting the recently bankrupt."

Outside the ACE check-cashing office on Georgia Avenue in Petworth, Harrison Blakeney, 67, explains a hard financial lesson of poverty. He uses the check-cashing store to pay his telephone bill. The store charges 10 percent to take Blakeney's money and send the payment to the phone company. That 10 percent becomes what it costs him to get his payment to the telephone company on time. Ten percent is more than the cost of a stamp. But, Blakeney says: "I don't have time to mail it. You come here and get it done. Then you don't get charged with the late fee."

Blakeney, a retired auto mechanic who now lives on a fixed income, says: "We could send the payment ahead of time but sometimes you don't have money ahead of time. That's why you pay extra money to get them to send it."

Blakeney, wearing a purple jacket, leans on his cane. He has no criticism for the check-cashing place. "That's how they make their money," he says. "I don't care about the charge."

Just then, Lenwood Brooks walks out of the check-cashing place. He is angry about how much it just cost him to cash a check. "They charged me $15 to cash a $300 check," he says

You ask him why he didn't just go to a bank. But his story is as complicated as the various reasons people find themselves in poverty and in need of a check-cashing joint. He says he lost his driver's license and now his regular bank "won't recognize me as a human. That's why I had to come here. It's a rip-off, but it's like a convenience store. You pay for the convenience."

Then there's credit. The poor don't have it. What they had was a place like First Cash Advance in D.C.'s Manor Park neighborhood, where a neon sign once flashed "PAYDAY ADVANCE." Through the bulletproof glass, a cashier in white eyeliner and long white nails explained what you needed to get an advance on your paycheck -- a pay stub, a legitimate ID, a checkbook. This meant you're doing well enough to have a checking account, but you're still poor.

And if you qualify, the fee for borrowing $300 is $46.50.

That was not for a year -- it's for seven days, although the terms can vary. How much interest will this payday loan cost you? In simple terms, the company is charging a $15.50 fee for every $100 that you borrow. On your $300 payday loan -- borrowed for a term of seven days -- the effective annual percentage rate is 806 percent.

The cashier says that what you do is write First Cash Advance a check for $345.50 plus another $1 fee, and it will give you $300 in cash upfront. It holds the check until you get paid. Then you bring in $346.50 and it returns your check. Or it cashes the check and keeps your $346.50, or you have the option of extending the loan with additional fees. You'll be out $46.50, which you'd rather have for the late fee on the rent you didn't pay on time. Or the gas bill you swear you paid last month but the gas company swears it never got.

But now the payday advance place has closed, shuttered by metal doors. A sign in the front door says the business has moved. After the D.C. government passed a law requiring payday lenders to abide by a 24-percent limit on the annual percentage rate charged on a loan, many such stores in the District closed. Now advocates for the poor say they are concerned about other businesses that prey on poor people by extending loans in exchange for car titles. If a person does not pay back the loan, then the business becomes the owner of the car.

All these costs can lead the poor to a collective depression. Douglas J. Besharov, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, says: "There are social costs of being poor, though it is not clear where the cause and effect is. We know for a fact that on certain measures, people who are poor are often more depressed than people who are not. I don't know if poverty made them depressed or the depression made them poor. I think the cause and effect is an open question. Some people are so depressed they are not functional. 'I live in a crummy neighborhood. My kids go to a crummy school.' That is not the kind of scenario that would make them happy." Another effect of all this, he says: "Would you want to hire someone like that?"

The poor suspect that prices are higher where they live, even the prices in major supermarkets. The suspicions sometimes spill over into frustration.

On a hot spring afternoon, Jacob Carter finds himself standing in a checkout line at the Giant on Alabama Avenue SE. Before the cashier finishes ringing up his items, he puts $43 on the conveyor belt. But his bill comes to $52.07. He has no more money, so he tells the clerk to start removing items.

The clerk suggests that he use his "bonus card" for savings.

Carter tells the clerk he has no such card.

He puts back the liter of soda. Puts back the paper towels. Sets aside $9 worth of hot fried chicken wings. He returns $13 worth of groceries. "Y'all got some high prices in this [expletive]," he says, standing in Aisle 4, blue shirt over work clothes.

The clerk suggests that he take his cash off the conveyor belt, because if she moves the belt the money will be carried into the machinery. Then the money will be gone.

Carter, a building engineer, snatches up the money, then gives it to the clerk. His final bill is $39.07.

He looks at the receipt and then announces without the slightest indication as to why: "Just give me all my [expletive] money back. It's too high in this [expletive]." The clerk calls the supervisor, who comes over. The supervisor doesn't argue with Carter. She just starts the process of giving him a refund.

"I want my money back. This [expletive] is too high. My grandmother told me about this store."

The supervisor returns $39.07 in cash. "Sir," she says, "have a blessed day."

The food in this supermarket might be cheaper than the goods at a corner store. But Carter still feels frustrated by what he thinks is a mark-up on prices in supermarkets in poor neighborhoods. Carter walks out.

The poor pay in other ways, ways you might never imagine. Jeanette Reed, who is retired and lives on a fixed income, sold her blood when she needed money. "I had no other source to get money," she says. "I went to the blood bank. And they gave me $30.

"I needed the money. I didn't have the money and no source of getting money. No gas. No food. I have to go to a center that gives out boxes of food once a month. They give you cereal or vouchers for $10. They give you canned tuna and macaroni and cheese. Crackers and soup. They give you commodities like day-old bread."

The poor know the special economics of their housing, too.

"You pay rent that might be more than a mortgage," Reed says. "But you don't have the credit or the down payment to buy a house. Apartments are not going down. They are going up. They say houses are better, cheaper. But how are you going to get in a house if you don't have any money for a down payment?"

There is also an economic cost to living in low-income neighborhoods.

"The cheaper housing is in more-dangerous areas," says Reed, who lives in Southeast Washington. "I moved out of my old apartment. I hate that area. They be walking up and down the street. Couldn't take the dog out at night because strangers walking up and down the street. They will knock on your door. Either they rob you, kill or ask for money. If you're not there, they will steal air conditioners and copper. They will sell your copper [pipes] for money."

And then there is the particular unpleasantness when you make too much money to fall below the poverty line, but not enough to move up, up and away from it.

For our final guest lecturer on poverty we take you to the Thrift Store on Georgia Avenue and Marie Nicholas, 35, in an orange shirt, purple pants and thick black eyeliner. She is what economists call the working poor.

She is picking through the racks. The store is busy with customers on a Monday afternoon. There is the shrill sound of hangers sliding across racks under fluorescent lights. An old confirmation dress hangs from the ceiling. It has faded to yellow. It's not far from the used silver pumps, size 9 1/2 , nearly new, on sale for $9.99.

"People working who don't make a lot of money go to the system for help, and they deny them," Nicholas says. "They say I make too much. It almost helps if you don't work."

She says she makes $15 an hour working as a certified nursing assistant. She pays $850 for rent for a one-bedroom that she shares with her boyfriend and child. She went looking for a two-bedroom unit recently and found it would cost her $1,400. She pays $300 a month for child care for her 11-year-old son, who is developmentally delayed. She tried to put him in a subsidized child-care facility, but was told she makes too much money. "My son was not chosen for Head Start because I wasn't in a shelter or on welfare. People's kids who do go don't do nothing but sit at home."

Money and time. "I ride the bus to get to work," Nicholas says. It takes an hour. "If I could drive, it would take me 10 minutes. I have to catch two buses." She gets to the bus stop at 6:30 a.m. The bus is supposed to come every 10 or 15 minutes. Sometimes, she says, it comes every 30 minutes.

What could you accomplish with the lost 20 minutes standing there in the rain? Waiting. That's another cost of poverty. You wait in lines. You wait at bus stops. You wait on the bus as it makes it way up Georgia Avenue, hitting every stop. No sense in trying to hurry when you are poor.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

That is a long series of anecdotes right there. Sure is. Good for them. No indications of solutions or proposals of how to make things better.

Things are more expensive when they are located within a city? SHOCKING!

High rents cause higer prices? SHOCKING!

Poor people are uneducated and fall for scams? SHOCKING!

Housing prices are cheaper in bad neighborhoods? SHOCKING!

These are not exactly amazing truths they are coming out with here and the fact that they list the problems with no comparison for how it works elsewhere or proposals for solutions makes it even worse.

A few comments on the situations and what I think might help:

High prices for groceries in bad neighborhoods. Well unless they are going force WalMart, Kroger etc to set up shop in a risky neighborhood I don't see how they can get at this one. Increased food stamps could help as could a bonus with redeemed food stamps in certain locales to make operating in those areas more profitable/ more likely to survive but the convenience of a corner store requires a premium in expense, the real estate is more valuable than some plot in the suburbs and any business there will have to charge more for the same things to survive. Unless you want to start thinking about price controls and artifically limiting the market, then we can walk down the Nixon/Carter road if you want to, I hear it leads to great things.

Not owning your own washer/dryer. Well, shit, I guess conveniences are expensive huh? Can they afford half of a washer and dryer? Maybe have some friends in the neighborhood that want to get together for one? Nope? Well at least it isn't washing clothes in the river with rocks and a bar of soap. Hopefully you realize that the 2 hours waiting can actually be spent constructively and are reading a book to give you some marketable skills, that's what you're doing right? Watching soap operas instead? Idiot.

Not owning a car? Well, increasing public transit spending might increase the frequency of bus lanes but they will still not be able to afford a car and honestly we want the people that can't afford a car to be using the bus instead of adding more traffic to the already chock full highways. The best way would probably be in better managing the city planning with areas for high volume high discount stores closer to the urban areas but if New York City is any example the idea of malls and discount stores in the city is anethma to them. Higher density would allow for the transportation to be more effective and make the better forms of mass transit more profitable/justifiable. This is a justifiable gripe that we as a country are not very good at. Having experience European style mass transit, I see what they mean when they say US has it bass-ackwards when it comes to mass-transit.

As for the working alot of hours and not making much money could that be in any way related to their lack of marketable skills? Definitely not, it must be the man just fucking them over and over. Their plight is completely irreversible if you are poor you can never gain the skills necessary to improve your situation because you have all this IDLE TIME waiting on the bus and your laundry. FUCK if only there was something constructive they could do while sitting on their poor hands being poor.

To be honest alot of these stories just reek of "I gave up, woe is me". If it weren't just a pile of anecdotes they might be trying to make a cogent point to argue with but they aren't they're just detailing a bunch of bullshit stupid things that poor people do.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Surlethe »

I don't see why anyone thinks these businesses are "preying" on the poor. Obviously, there's a demand for their business; if poor people didn't value those businesses, they wouldn't patronize them, so clearly poor people are better-off with those businesses than without them. It's just simple market economics at work - when DC imposed a cap on interest rates, a bunch of payday loan stores went out of business, and I'll bet there were lines at the ones that didn't. Passing that law must have decreased the welfare of poor people in DC.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by General Zod »

KrauserKrauser wrote: Not owning a car? Well, increasing public transit spending might increase the frequency of bus lanes but they will still not be able to afford a car and honestly we want the people that can't afford a car to be using the bus instead of adding more traffic to the already chock full highways. The best way would probably be in better managing the city planning with areas for high volume high discount stores closer to the urban areas but if New York City is any example the idea of malls and discount stores in the city is anethma to them. Higher density would allow for the transportation to be more effective and make the better forms of mass transit more profitable/justifiable. This is a justifiable gripe that we as a country are not very good at. Having experience European style mass transit, I see what they mean when they say US has it bass-ackwards when it comes to mass-transit.
What makes you think we want people who CAN afford a car to be using their cars more instead of the bus?
As for the working alot of hours and not making much money could that be in any way related to their lack of marketable skills? Definitely not, it must be the man just fucking them over and over. Their plight is completely irreversible if you are poor you can never gain the skills necessary to improve your situation because you have all this IDLE TIME waiting on the bus and your laundry. FUCK if only there was something constructive they could do while sitting on their poor hands being poor.
Really? Exactly how many marketable skills have YOU learned outside of a structured university or classroom setting? You realize that any kind of worthwhile education isn't going to be something these people can afford right? And quite frankly most employers want you to be CERTIFIED in a given skill, so reading a book is not going to help that.
To be honest alot of these stories just reek of "I gave up, woe is me". If it weren't just a pile of anecdotes they might be trying to make a cogent point to argue with but they aren't they're just detailing a bunch of bullshit stupid things that poor people do.
And your post reeks of the typical "lol rugged individualism" rightwing nonsense.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Surlethe »

KrauserKrauser wrote:That is a long series of anecdotes right there. Sure is. Good for them. No indications of solutions or proposals of how to make things better.

Things are more expensive when they are located within a city? SHOCKING!

High rents cause higer prices? SHOCKING!

Poor people are uneducated and fall for scams? SHOCKING!

Housing prices are cheaper in bad neighborhoods? SHOCKING!

These are not exactly amazing truths they are coming out with here and the fact that they list the problems with no comparison for how it works elsewhere or proposals for solutions makes it even worse.
The real issue is getting people like you to acknowledge there is a problem.
A few comments on the situations and what I think might help:

High prices for groceries in bad neighborhoods. Well unless they are going force WalMart, Kroger etc to set up shop in a risky neighborhood I don't see how they can get at this one. Increased food stamps could help as could a bonus with redeemed food stamps in certain locales to make operating in those areas more profitable/ more likely to survive but the convenience of a corner store requires a premium in expense, the real estate is more valuable than some plot in the suburbs and any business there will have to charge more for the same things to survive. Unless you want to start thinking about price controls and artifically limiting the market, then we can walk down the Nixon/Carter road if you want to, I hear it leads to great things.
What about subsidizing "convenience" stores? Why aren't food stamps and increased welfare spending at the top of your list?
Not owning your own washer/dryer. Well, shit, I guess conveniences are expensive huh? Can they afford half of a washer and dryer? Maybe have some friends in the neighborhood that want to get together for one? Nope? Well at least it isn't washing clothes in the river with rocks and a bar of soap. Hopefully you realize that the 2 hours waiting can actually be spent constructively and are reading a book to give you some marketable skills, that's what you're doing right? Watching soap operas instead? Idiot.
Where is this person going to get a book when she's spending two hours at the laundromat? What time is there to regularly patronize the public library? Is she even well-educated enough to read higher-level texts, let alone figure out life paths and do the extensive research necessary to choose one and pursue it? The problem of poverty is a lot deeper than you seem to think.
Not owning a car? Well, increasing public transit spending might increase the frequency of bus lanes but they will still not be able to afford a car and honestly we want the people that can't afford a car to be using the bus instead of adding more traffic to the already chock full highways. The best way would probably be in better managing the city planning with areas for high volume high discount stores closer to the urban areas but if New York City is any example the idea of malls and discount stores in the city is anethma to them. Higher density would allow for the transportation to be more effective and make the better forms of mass transit more profitable/justifiable. This is a justifiable gripe that we as a country are not very good at. Having experience European style mass transit, I see what they mean when they say US has it bass-ackwards when it comes to mass-transit.
I think a better idea would be a long-term solution using regional zoning to limit suburban sprawl; that way, you increase density automatically and you can get more efficient public transportation.
As for the working alot of hours and not making much money could that be in any way related to their lack of marketable skills? Definitely not, it must be the man just fucking them over and over. Their plight is completely irreversible if you are poor you can never gain the skills necessary to improve your situation because you have all this IDLE TIME waiting on the bus and your laundry. FUCK if only there was something constructive they could do while sitting on their poor hands being poor.
See what I said above. Where the fuck are they going to get the education necessary to learn about career choices, let alone develop these marketable skills? Where are they going to get the time or the money to make the "initial capital investment", so to speak? Are they going to be able to afford a $150 textbook when they're living $300 paycheck to $300 paycheck? Where are they going to find the two hours to catch a bus to the library when they have to use that time to wait for a bus to work, or argue with the slumlord about last month's rent, or - god forbid - do laundry?

PS- Subjunctive uses "were", not "was". When you write "if only there was ...", you sound like an ass-backwards uneducated hick.
To be honest alot of these stories just reek of "I gave up, woe is me". If it weren't just a pile of anecdotes they might be trying to make a cogent point to argue with but they aren't they're just detailing a bunch of bullshit stupid things that poor people do.
You have no sympathy for poverty and no appreciation for the widespread social phenomena by which it is created and perpetuated. Have you even considered why poor people do "stupid things"? What options are open to them?
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

General Zod wrote:What makes you think we want people who CAN afford a car to be using their cars more instead of the bus?
What part of my post had anything to deal with that?

It's a win win, not only would proper city planning allow for more effective and more efficient public transportation for the poor to reach better locations for them but it would allow those that can afford a car to save even more money and just use the bus/train.
Really? Exactly how many marketable skills have YOU learned outside of a structured university or classroom setting? You realize that any kind of worthwhile education isn't going to be something these people can afford right? And quite frankly most employers want you to be CERTIFIED in a given skill, so reading a book is not going to help that.
Oh I don't maybe they need their GED, I hear they have course books and study materials you can use to help study for it. Maybe they can read some books on leadership/management to go for that supervisor position or even just read the union laws to go for a shop steward position. How about reading finance for dummies, or general handyman guides or other self improvement books.

I'm sure there is no reading our coursework involved in getting certified for a given skill, it must be all hands only classroom work. They definitely can't try to get a realtor's license by reading the real estate laws or anything like that. No everything must be in the classroom or nothing and even then there definitely is nothing like taking an online course using the library for the internet connection and then reading the course materials on all this IDLE TIME the article references.

Opening a small business, running a small business, improving their current job performance, none of that can be done outside of a classroom. Definitely not.
and your post reeks of the typical "lol rugged individualism" rightwing nonsense.
And you completely ignore the obvious damage these people are doing to themselves because ??? and lazy.

Guy has to use same day check cashing that costs him an arm and a leg, why? Lazy can't make it the fucking DMV so his bank will actually recognize him.

Girl has two hours of down time doing laundry at a laundromat, what to do with the time? Watch soap operas! Great thinking poor person, that definitely can't be indicative why you are poor in the first place, nope must be your heritage/culture/skin color/sexuality/whateverthefuck!

Lady realizes that some items are expensive and some are cheap at a grocery store, does she only buy the cheap stuff? No! Obviously it's expensive so I have to buy that too, great money management!

Rich people have direct deposit and somehow poor people can't get that, must be a giant conspiracy right? Nope, the stated example is of an old guy that lost his drivers license, DAMN IT if only there was an easy way that might cost me an afternoon to get that fixed and save the HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS I am FLUSHING DOWN THE TOILET. Or the guy that doesn't have time to mail a check. What the fucking hell? The exsamples they give are completely asinine.

Guy complains about the high price of groceries, obviously he will take advantage of the FREE DISCOUNTS that the store gives to entice return shoppers? Of course not! Why not you ask? Because he's lolangry at the cost of groceries!

It's almost more likely this article was written to show that poor people are poor because they are retarded and lazy and compeltely ignore the other reasons they might be poor.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Edi »

KrauserKrauser, have you ever been poor? Had to count every fucking penny you spent, go to the authorities to ask hat in hand for assistance and all the other shit that these people routinely have to do? I'd be almost willing to bet my apartment you haven't. You know nothing about being poor, and you also seem not to have paid any attention either when people who do have been posting. Broomstick has posted extensively on what it's like because she has fallen on hard times and she has it rough even though she is ten times more resourceful and far better educated than many others.

You can either stop posting your stupid fucking pig-ignorant opinions as fact, or this thread goes straight to the HoS, where dogpiling on you will not only go unpunished, but will be encouraged, and you will get your very own VI poll in the Senate to boot? Is that clear?

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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Bounty »

I wonder how much studying you'd get done in a laundromat. Hint: they are loud and busy. That's hardly conductive to proper learning - especially since you're interrupted every half hour to change the load.

I'm baffled at the concept of needing a driver's license of all things to open an account. I can understand perfectly that the banks need to have some form of ID and that a license is the closest they'll get, but tying the ability operate a motor vehicle to virtually essential services seems asinine. What do the disabled do? Do they just issue driver's licenses to the blind so they can operate in society or are they SOL?
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by General Zod »

KrauserKrauser wrote: What part of my post had anything to deal with that?

It's a win win, not only would proper city planning allow for more effective and more efficient public transportation for the poor to reach better locations for them but it would allow those that can afford a car to save even more money and just use the bus/train.
Well there is the problem that you seem to think that public transportation is only for poor people. Frankly that kind of attitude is not helping it get in place.
Oh I don't maybe they need their GED, I hear they have course books and study materials you can use to help study for it. Maybe they can read some books on leadership/management to go for that supervisor position or even just read the union laws to go for a shop steward position. How about reading finance for dummies, or general handyman guides or other self improvement books.
Exactly how do you expect them to pay for these books when they can barely afford to eat?
I'm sure there is no reading our coursework involved in getting certified for a given skill, it must be all hands only classroom work. They definitely can't try to get a realtor's license by reading the real estate laws or anything like that. No everything must be in the classroom or nothing and even then there definitely is nothing like taking an online course using the library for the internet connection and then reading the course materials on all this IDLE TIME the article references.

Opening a small business, running a small business, improving their current job performance, none of that can be done outside of a classroom. Definitely not.
You don't actually know what's involved in creating a sustainable business, do you? Hint: If the only credit these people can get is through a payday loan place, they will not be able to get the line of credit necessary to open something.
>snip<

It's almost more likely this article was written to show that poor people are poor because they are retarded and lazy and compeltely ignore the other reasons they might be poor.
Why don't you list some of those reasons then? Because quite frankly like every other Republitard you seem to be fixated on the idea that the only way someone could possibly find themselves in these kind of situations is by being "lazy".
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Look, my intent with my post is not to say that poor people are stupid, but that this article is written in such a way as to only show situations that could easily be avoided, that they are in fact bringing it on themselves.

I do not entirely believe that to be the case and I was refuting the retarded examples that the article brought up to support its case that being poor is expensive.

As with my proposal to improve city planning and the like I believe the problems listed in this article are too high level, that the root of the problems lie much deeper and that this article is not helping the cause of the poor by simply listing a litany of stupid things that they do to remain poor.

Honestly I didn'y make it past the first few anecdotes in the OP because they were so appallingly and blatantly stupid in the points they were making that I ignored the final situation which could be approached through a variety of ways. Increased limits on subsidized housing, increasing the minimums required to gain federal assistance, etc. this example is a much better situation to use for a comparison as the woman in the example is not doing anything lollazy or lolstupid and is good example of doing everything right and still not getting anywhere.

The article just throws shit out there as if the system is out to get them at all times, and I bet it seems like that is the case, but some of the examples are useless.

The bus is late by 20 minutes every day. Why is that? They hate poor people? No, more than likely the bus drivers are in a public sector union that has enabled them to perform their job this poorly without any reprecussions. Increased funding won't get the busses to run on time, getting the bus drivers to actually do their jobs and actually put some expectations on a public sector union would be the better course of action.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Bounty wrote:I'm baffled at the concept of needing a driver's license of all things to open an account. I can understand perfectly that the banks need to have some form of ID and that a license is the closest they'll get, but tying the ability operate a motor vehicle to virtually essential services seems asinine. What do the disabled do? Do they just issue driver's licenses to the blind so they can operate in society or are they SOL?
He should be able to just as easily get an ID card from the DMV, you don't need to be able to drive to obtain a government recognized ID card.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Surlethe »

You can get a government-issued ID card at a BMV.

I wonder if KrauserKrauser has ever tried to live without a car. Hint: it's extremely difficult. My wife and I tried for six months, and we ended up borrowing my parents' car so much we finally caved and bought a used one from my grandfather. But without one available, if I'd lost my license I simply would not have been able to get to the BMV to buy a new one, since the damn place is a mile and a half from the nearest bus stop. Where am I going to get the five hours to bus out as far as I can go, walk the rest of the way, wait in line, fill out the paperwork, walk back, and bus back into town?
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Look, my intent with my post is not to say that poor people are stupid, but that this article is written in such a way as to only show situations that could easily be avoided, that they are in fact bringing it on themselves.

I'm sure some are.

Some are also trying to improve themselves. One improved herself to the point of being a CNA and for her trouble she was told she was "Making too much money" to qualify for crazy crap like preschool.

By the way, $15 an hour is a joke in the DC area, more so if you have a kid.

I'm having a hard time shrugging my shoulders and saying "so sad, too bad" because I know that living in the DC area without a car, while doable, is staggeringly difficult.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I agree, the last example given should have been the only one if they wanted make a useful argument. Now, we don't know the whole story and there could be more to the reason why she is making what she is making, etc. but taking the story at face value it is a much better example of why something needs to be done to improve the system and not "I R too stupid/lazy to help myself" that you see in the previous examples.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Surlethe wrote:I wonder if KrauserKrauser has ever tried to live without a car. Hint: it's extremely difficult. My wife and I tried for six months, and we ended up borrowing my parents' car so much we finally caved and bought a used one from my grandfather. But without one available, if I'd lost my license I simply would not have been able to get to the BMV to buy a new one, since the damn place is a mile and a half from the nearest bus stop. Where am I going to get the five hours to bus out as far as I can go, walk the rest of the way, wait in line, fill out the paperwork, walk back, and bus back into town?
I don't doubt that it is extremely difficult to live without car, America has been designed to be extremely car centric and having not experienced anything different until my recent stay in Europe, I would have argued that it is what it is.

Now, there is still that element of it is what it is due to the overhauling of the system being extremely expensive but I am much more sympathetic to the desire for better city design and increased public transportation.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Vehrec »

KrauserKrauser wrote:
General Zod wrote: And you completely ignore the obvious damage these people are doing to themselves because ??? and lazy.

Guy has to use same day check cashing that costs him an arm and a leg, why? Lazy can't make it the fucking DMV so his bank will actually recognize him.
Getting to and from the DMV for me would take 2 hours, using public transportation. Getting to and from the DMV on foot would cost me about four hours of my precious precious time that I could spend arguing with you. Now, I'm currently unemployed, so my time is cheep. Other people aren't so lucky. Time is money is more than just an expression when you work ten hours a day, and then the DMV is closed when you get off work.
Girl has two hours of down time doing laundry at a laundromat, what to do with the time? Watch soap operas! Great thinking poor person, that definitely can't be indicative why you are poor in the first place, nope must be your heritage/culture/skin color/sexuality/whateverthefuck!
Self help books cost money too you know. As for 'starting a small business', I'd love to see where the hell these people are supposed to get the venture capital for that. Furthermore, TVs with soap operas on them aren't exactly something uncommon at laundromats. You made a logical jump from 'soap operas on TV in laundromat with woman' to 'ZOMG, TV zombie is lazy, this explains everything!'
Lady realizes that some items are expensive and some are cheap at a grocery store, does she only buy the cheap stuff? No! Obviously it's expensive so I have to buy that too, great money management!
Time again is money. Prepared food is more expensive, but takes less time to get ready and eat. Beans and rice might be dirt cheep, but they take hours to make, and many people can't deal with that. When you can't travel to 5 different grocery stores searching for the best deals on milk, eggs and bread, you wind up spending more money-again because you don't have the time.

[quote[Rich people have direct deposit and somehow poor people can't get that, must be a giant conspiracy right? Nope, the stated example is of an old guy that lost his drivers license, DAMN IT if only there was an easy way that might cost me an afternoon to get that fixed and save the HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS I am FLUSHING DOWN THE TOILET. Or the guy that doesn't have time to mail a check. What the fucking hell? The exsamples they give are completely asinine.
These are examples of people with limited time and mobility who maybe can't spare that afternoon to get a license. Or they can't get a stamp from the post office, because that would take MORE TIME. What about this time and money dilemma is so hard to understand?
Guy complains about the high price of groceries, obviously he will take advantage of the FREE DISCOUNTS that the store gives to entice return shoppers? Of course not! Why not you ask? Because he's lolangry at the cost of groceries!
Those free discounts might not be as free as you suggest-and I've noticed that those cards aren't as useful as you might hope. Making up almost ten dollars in price difference on a $50 grocery bill is not what they are for.
It's almost more likely this article was written to show that poor people are poor because they are retarded and lazy and compeltely ignore the other reasons they might be poor.
You know, if you keep telling poor people that they are retarded and lazy, they might just start believing you. Heaven forbid that someone actually be price gouging them, or that they might effectively be trapped in an underclass. That would be against that all-american dream of apple pie and climbing to the limits of your abilities.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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Krauser, you haven't answered any of my above points re. why what you interpret as "laziness or stupidity" isn't anything of the sort. The thrust is twofold: first, self-improvement requires a sort of initial capital investment which is often too expensive, both in terms of time and money; second, there are systemic problems that lead to people being caught in a generational "stupidity trap", such as a shitty educational system that treats poor people poorly and rich people well. There's also the fact that self-improvement has, shall we say, diminishing returns before it has rising returns: as in the last anecdote, as you climb out of poverty, it gets worse before it gets better and you risk being stuck between welfare and the middle-class, which is worse than both. Finally, I think you really underestimate the impact of poverty on mental health; a poor person may simply not have the fortitude to pull himself out of it, even if there's a ready path out of poverty.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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General Zod wrote:Well there is the problem that you seem to think that public transportation is only for poor people. Frankly that kind of attitude is not helping it get in place.
Please provide evidence of this or stop putting words in my mouth. Public transportatin is of course going to be predominately used by the poor because private transportation is defacto more expensive as it is not subsidized.
Exactly how do you expect them to pay for these books when they can barely afford to eat?
Libraries, friends, kid's libraries, Library book sales, garage sales, discount stores, goodwill, salvation army, etc. Maybe we can propose subsidized training materials or something of that nature, simply saying "Oh I'm doing laundry" and sitting on your ass for hours isn't doing anyone any good.
You don't actually know what's involved in creating a sustainable business, do you? Hint: If the only credit these people can get is through a payday loan place, they will not be able to get the line of credit necessary to open something.
Yes, ignore all of my points but one. Yes. Good job. You are SOOO GREAT at depating Zod! Harp on the hardest one of all the listed options and ignore the rest. I see what you did there.
Why don't you list some of those reasons then? Because quite frankly like every other Republitard you seem to be fixated on the idea that the only way someone could possibly find themselves in these kind of situations is by being "lazy".
No Direct Deposit: The article situation = lollazy/stupid. Real life = Variety of reasons. Employer doesn't offer it to cut costs, Employee has horrible credit after racking up tons of credit card bills and can't get a bank account, Poor person is uneducated and is simply doing what his parents did, etc. From employment laws giving benefits to companies that get employees on direct deposit to enhancing education of financial matters in public schools, alot could be done to alleviate the credit problems that the poor face.

Buses take too long/are late: Well the buses are late for everyone and are generally run by those wonderful societal leeches the public sector unions so pressure could be applied to them to make sure the buses run on time. Random inspection of bus routes or your union gets busted up! Buses taking too long would either need more buses or a different method of public transport be it it Paris's public rent-a-bikes or a metro or what have you, options exist but the justification would have to come from higher density city planning and a move away from suburb living. More than likely imposing higher taxes on a state level to suburban density level areas would be the most likely to get people to move back to the city but good luck in getting that passed anywhere with people involved in the voting process.

Cost of housing/food is too high: Well increase in limits of minimums to qualify for assistance to tougher enforcement of regulations on welfare reception. Can work and prefer to sit on your ass? Sorry, less money for you. Working but still not making the bills, here, you get their money instead. What exact form this would take would be dependent on the society's needs and should be shaped to increase employment and decrease the "Sit on my ass because there is no point in trying" mentality that is seen in the poor. Whether it be extra tax credits for earning a certain amount of money per year up to a limit or what have you, there are many tools that can be used to alleviate the not enough money without simply handing out checks because you believe to be stupid to help themselves.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Surlethe wrote:What about subsidizing "convenience" stores? Why aren't food stamps and increased welfare spending at the top of your list?
That's a good option as well. If you actually read my post you would see that foodstamps was the second fucking thing I said. Allowing conveniece stores to redeem their food stamps for more than the discount stores would be easy to implement with a simple unique identifying stamp for the food stamps before they can be turned in for cash. That would be able to accomplish both at once.
Where is this person going to get a book when she's spending two hours at the laundromat? What time is there to regularly patronize the public library? Is she even well-educated enough to read higher-level texts, let alone figure out life paths and do the extensive research necessary to choose one and pursue it? The problem of poverty is a lot deeper than you seem to think.
As I responded to Zod earlier there are a ton of places for anyone to get cheap or free books from thrift shops to library sales to libraries themselves.

As for the education part, that is a good point as well and no where in the article does it address the fact that money management is not a mandatory part of any public school curriculum that I have run into. Also the current idea that it's college or nothing when it comes to education and the lack of promotion of trade schools in the education environment. It's a deeper problem in that it occurs when the person is not necessarily locked into being poor and with a good education could do much more than with the current education they receive in a public school. You won't hear me bragging too much about the public education any given child receives and the poor quality of education, especially the lack of useful skills that are taught the children while at school, could easily be contributing the number of poor and working poor in the country.

Then again, I would put alot of blame on the Teacher's unions and the presence of tenure in a non-research environment such as in every public grade school in the country.
I think a better idea would be a long-term solution using regional zoning to limit suburban sprawl; that way, you increase density automatically and you can get more efficient public transportation.
Agreed. A better explanation of the better city planning I had indicated I would support.
See what I said above. Where the fuck are they going to get the education necessary to learn about career choices, let alone develop these marketable skills? Where are they going to get the time or the money to make the "initial capital investment", so to speak? Are they going to be able to afford a $150 textbook when they're living $300 paycheck to $300 paycheck? Where are they going to find the two hours to catch a bus to the library when they have to use that time to wait for a bus to work, or argue with the slumlord about last month's rent, or - god forbid - do laundry?
Well as I believe they are starting off on the wrong foot due to the poor public education they receive *cough*vouchers*cough* they should be developing these skills in high school and then further develop them in either community college, trade schools or even college. Whether it be increased means based public assistance for higher education or increased funding and acceptance of trade schools nationwide or the abolition of tenure in non-research environments to improve competition and remove the non-functional teachers out there, much can be done to give them a better chance coming out of school.

The two hours are from the OP as they said the lady just sat there watching Soap Operas for two hours waiting for her laundry to be done. That is not example of OMG my life is so hard being poor, it's an example of not making every effort to get yourself out of the gutter and should not have been included if the auther was genuinely trying to show how hard it was to be poor.
PS- Subjunctive uses "were", not "was". When you write "if only there was ...", you sound like an ass-backwards uneducated hick.
Writing between breaks in work does not result in the best grammar. Mea Culpa.
You have no sympathy for poverty and no appreciation for the widespread social phenomena by which it is created and perpetuated. Have you even considered why poor people do "stupid things"? What options are open to them?
Not doing stupid things?

If they are too stupid to realize that payday loans are a bad deal is it better to try and eliminate payday loans ala Washington DC or try to get it through their thick skulls that it is worth the time and effort required to get a bank account and get on direct deposit. Again, the thick skulls is not a comment that poor people = thick skulled, just that even when DC implemented their curbing of payday loans, the making pay day lonas didn't learn their lesson in any way, we just limited the amount of damage they can do to themselves.

I have sympathy for poverty, I don't have sympathy for alot of the situations that the OP listed as they imply a laziness and or stupidity that I am certain are not present in a majority of the poor and yet the article only provides one example of they type of "I did everything right and I'm still down here" that should be used when identifying what measures need to be taken to get people out of poverty.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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Surlethe wrote:Krauser, you haven't answered any of my above points re. why what you interpret as "laziness or stupidity" isn't anything of the sort. The thrust is twofold: first, self-improvement requires a sort of initial capital investment which is often too expensive, both in terms of time and money; second, there are systemic problems that lead to people being caught in a generational "stupidity trap", such as a shitty educational system that treats poor people poorly and rich people well. There's also the fact that self-improvement has, shall we say, diminishing returns before it has rising returns: as in the last anecdote, as you climb out of poverty, it gets worse before it gets better and you risk being stuck between welfare and the middle-class, which is worse than both. Finally, I think you really underestimate the impact of poverty on mental health; a poor person may simply not have the fortitude to pull himself out of it, even if there's a ready path out of poverty.
Yes, and those points could be alleviated by a better and more practical approach being taught in public schools, which the article didn't touch on worth a damn. They were just showing "Hey look at these poor people complaining about being poor while doing stupid things that are keeping them poor." and "Yep, this guy knows that payday loans are bad and he's poor and knows how to solve the problem but he won't because of ???? lolstupid/lazy."
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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Okay, MY poor-people anecdote.

I was poor. REALLY poor. I supported a family of 4 on ~350.00 a week with subsidized childcare/foodstamps. Did I use payday loans? Yes. They are evil, horrible places and they DO prey on the poor. I was stuck in the "lol intrest loop" for a long time before I got my income tax refund and paid it off. I was stupid. I am now not stupid. but it was a hard lesson.

Living without a car - Sure, I've lived without a car. It's not hard. you do what you have to do - I recognize that. it was the price of not having a car. Now, I HAD a car, then I didn't. So learning to live without one was hard, but liberating when I got used to it because I realized I didn't NEED a car. which made it all the more liberating when I got a car.

no washer and dryer - Sucks to be them. I currently live without a washer and dryer becuse my apartment complex only has room for 24" models which are rare, tiny, and super expensive. so I go to a laundromat. Boo-frickity hoo. I deal with it - so should they.

as for store prices, that's a bummer, but that's just how it works. I've been in that basket before, and when I had to do my big shopping while I was supporting that large family on that tiny paycheck, I sometimes walked to the biggish (Winn-dixie or whatever) store in town, bought the groceries, and hauled them back by hand/ with a cart/wagon/etc.

Check cashing - Almost any employer offers direct deposit, and you can actually get pre-paid debit cards with no credit check that functions as a repository for directly-deposited funds, and furthermore, most of these are available at any medium-sized grocery store.

No License = no bank. BS - BS BS BS. There is not a bank in this country that does not have provisions for people who have no Driver's License. There are a multitude of options available for identification so I don't buy it. He probably has a negative report because he had an account charged off for a negative balance or somesuch - that is far more likely.

The point is - being poor is not an insurmountable obstacle. I did it I clawed my way up from the poor house to middleish-classdom. I'd have done better had I gone to college, no doubt, but I am satisfied; content with how far I've come. I don't deny that there are obstacles, I don't deny that it is hard, and I do not deny that many have a lot stacked against them, but speaking as someone who has been there, done that, you do what you have to do, We all do.

Do I have sympathy for these people? Sure. A lot of it comes down to education. They may not even be aware of all the options or opportunities available to them. This is not necessarily their fault, but certainly it requires effort. If I had not stooped to applying for a janitor's job, I never would have been hired to be a security guard for a mortgage company which allowed me to figure out how to get hired to work in an ofice setting rather than a minimum wage hackjob, which ultimately, through hard work, got me to where I am today.

Let me be clear - I am not opposed to welfare, I'm not, but I also do not approve of excuses. I've USED welfare - it saved my arse - but I got back on my feet as soon as I was able and continued moving up.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Things are more expensive when they are located within a city? SHOCKING!

High rents cause higer prices? SHOCKING!

Poor people are uneducated and fall for scams? SHOCKING!

Housing prices are cheaper in bad neighborhoods? SHOCKING!
Are you saying that everyone has already processed the effect of those things on the lifestyle of the poor, hence making it completely redundant for the article to mention any of it? Because not everyone considers these things, and you know it. Middle-class people can be remarkably oblivious.
Increased food stamps could help as could a bonus with redeemed food stamps in certain locales to make operating in those areas more profitable/ more likely to survive but the convenience of a corner store requires a premium in expense, the real estate is more valuable than some plot in the suburbs and any business there will have to charge more for the same things to survive. Unless you want to start thinking about price controls and artifically limiting the market, then we can walk down the Nixon/Carter road if you want to, I hear it leads to great things.
Or you could raise minimum wage. But all of these ideas are basically socialist. Are you agreeing that socialism is the only solution to these kinds of problems, especially as social conditions have caused urban sprawl to expand out of control?
Not owning your own washer/dryer. Well, shit, I guess conveniences are expensive huh? Can they afford half of a washer and dryer? Maybe have some friends in the neighborhood that want to get together for one? Nope? Well at least it isn't washing clothes in the river with rocks and a bar of soap. Hopefully you realize that the 2 hours waiting can actually be spent constructively and are reading a book to give you some marketable skills, that's what you're doing right? Watching soap operas instead? Idiot.
I actually agree on this one. I used a laundromat when I was a poor student, and it sucks but it's cheap, and you can read or even do homework in there.
Not owning a car? Well, increasing public transit spending might increase the frequency of bus lanes but they will still not be able to afford a car and honestly we want the people that can't afford a car to be using the bus instead of adding more traffic to the already chock full highways. The best way would probably be in better managing the city planning with areas for high volume high discount stores closer to the urban areas but if New York City is any example the idea of malls and discount stores in the city is anethma to them. Higher density would allow for the transportation to be more effective and make the better forms of mass transit more profitable/justifiable. This is a justifiable gripe that we as a country are not very good at. Having experience European style mass transit, I see what they mean when they say US has it bass-ackwards when it comes to mass-transit.
Yeah, this is a huge problem for which the solutions would also have to be huge. We've spent decades building ourselves up into a car-centric society. Take away peoples' cars and they're seriously handicapped.
As for the working alot of hours and not making much money could that be in any way related to their lack of marketable skills? Definitely not, it must be the man just fucking them over and over. Their plight is completely irreversible if you are poor you can never gain the skills necessary to improve your situation because you have all this IDLE TIME waiting on the bus and your laundry. FUCK if only there was something constructive they could do while sitting on their poor hands being poor.
You are correct in the sense that a lot of these people could probably find ways to improve their situation. However, there's an old saying which goes "it's twice as hard to catch up as it is to keep up". Simply put, middle-class people were pushed to do a lot of things by their early 20s that these people were not, and it would take far more effort to do them later in life than it took for the middle-class kids to do them early in life. Is it still possible? Absolutely. But it is much more difficult.

It's easy to say "go to school in your spare time while you work a long-hour minimum wage job and raise two kids" for someone like me, who separated university and child-raising by many years. And it's true that I deserve some credit for being responsible enough to make that decision, while these idiots skipped school and thought I was a "geek".

But at the same time, we have a problem of generational poverty and that will never be solved by simply pointing out that these people cause many of their own problems. And in the US, this problem is exacerbated by the extreme segregation of the poor, so they get less access to everything.
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General Zod
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by General Zod »

Chardok wrote: Living without a car - Sure, I've lived without a car. It's not hard. you do what you have to do - I recognize that. it was the price of not having a car. Now, I HAD a car, then I didn't. So learning to live without one was hard, but liberating when I got used to it because I realized I didn't NEED a car. which made it all the more liberating when I got a car.
Regarding the job issue, this depends entirely on where you live. If you have somewhere with a reasonable public transportation network it's doable, but in a lot of cities with minimal or no buses not having a car can be a death-sentence when most of your employers will want a "reliable form of transportation" and it's several miles to get to work. Not having a car would be much less problematic with a much better funded public transportation system. Even where I live our system isn't the best, even if it's a cut above the average.
Check cashing - Almost any employer offers direct deposit, and you can actually get pre-paid debit cards with no credit check that functions as a repository for directly-deposited funds, and furthermore, most of these are available at any medium-sized grocery store.
I dunno. I've had any number of jobs where direct deposit wasn't an option, one of which was working for a big retail chain.
The point is - being poor is not an insurmountable obstacle. I did it I clawed my way up from the poor house to middleish-classdom. I'd have done better had I gone to college, no doubt, but I am satisfied; content with how far I've come. I don't deny that there are obstacles, I don't deny that it is hard, and I do not deny that many have a lot stacked against them, but speaking as someone who has been there, done that, you do what you have to do, We all do.
On the other hand it would be much less difficult to work up with better social and public services in place.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by Darth Wong »

Sorry, but I'm with the heartless conservatives on the cheque-cashing stupidity:
You ask him why he didn't just go to a bank. But his story is as complicated as the various reasons people find themselves in poverty and in need of a check-cashing joint. He says he lost his driver's license and now his regular bank "won't recognize me as a human. That's why I had to come here. It's a rip-off, but it's like a convenience store. You pay for the convenience."
First, he's full of shit. My 13 year old son has a bank account. I had a bank account when I was a kid. Since when do you need a driver's license to have a bank account? That sounds like the guy is just trying to justify his own laziness and stupidity: the last line is where he shows a bit of honesty and admits he's willingly paying those exorbitant cheque-cashing fees because it's just more convenient. In short, he's a lazy short-sighted moron.

Sorry, but convenience costs money. I spent years as a poor student and I know exactly how that works. I used a bicycle to go to stores and the bank. I have never used a cheque-cashing store in my life, and I've been poor: so fucking poor at one time that I had to scrounge for money to pay for toilet paper, because I was working hard to put myself and my wife through school on my student's salary. Don't blow sunshine up my ass and tell me how I can't possibly understand. I've been there, and I didn't do that stupid shit.
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Re: The High Cost of Poverty

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Darth Wong wrote:Are you saying that everyone has already processed the effect of those things on the lifestyle of the poor, hence making it completely redundant for the article to mention any of it? Because not everyone considers these things, and you know it. Middle-class people can be remarkably oblivious.
No, my point was mainly that the examples that the article uses to indicate the plight of the poor are poorly selected with the exception of the last example. Each of the previous ones are remarkably easy to poke holes in and simply brush them aside as stupid people being stupid and doing stupid things to keep them poor. The last example is much better in showing the reality of the working poor while the previous ones simply indicate that people make stupid decisions and should know better without indicating that they in fact DO NOT know any better due to poor education, etc. Instead they quote a guy saying basically, "Yeah, I know they're fucking me, but who cares! stupid/lazy!".
Or you could raise minimum wage. But all of these ideas are basically socialist. Are you agreeing that socialism is the only solution to these kinds of problems, especially as social conditions have caused urban sprawl to expand out of control?
Socialist policies have also been the most effective appraoch when it comes to items such as this. The market can and will only do so much when it comes to the poor so something else must step in unless you just say "fuck 'em" Sadly the US is going to take alot of time to get over the Socialism =/= Communism brainbug that started with Wilson, contniued with Truman and went to great heights with Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon/Basically every president after WW2.
You are correct in the sense that a lot of these people could probably find ways to improve their situation. However, there's an old saying which goes "it's twice as hard to catch up as it is to keep up". Simply put, middle-class people were pushed to do a lot of things by their early 20s that these people were not, and it would take far more effort to do them later in life than it took for the middle-class kids to do them early in life. Is it still possible? Absolutely. But it is much more difficult.
And that is where I think better application of funds would come with a reward system based on education, employment or income generation. Instead of rewarding people for doing nothing, I would rather see a system based on income matching, interest rate reduction based on means, etc that would benefit the poor as well as encourage the growth of the economic base.

I prefer a system that rewards good performance instead of simply rewarding existence.
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