Sparks around the keg: Violence at townhall.

[SirNitram]

Link

Tampa, Florida - Angry protesters and strong supporters are clashing inside and all around a health care reform town hall meeting in Downtown Tampa. The meeting which was scheduled to begin at 6:00 at the Children's Board of Hillsborough County drew hundreds of people who quickly began to overwhelm staff and event organizers at the front entrance.

As the building filled to capacity, angry protesters stuck outside began to scream, yell, and chant. At one point, those trying to get inside began banging on windows as Tampa Police officers quickly spread out guarding all entrances.

10 Connects photojournalist Kevin Carlson, currently inside the meeting reports at least one fist fight breaking out inside. Some other journalists remain outside.

Democratic Congresswoman Kathy Castor and State Representative Betty Reed were hosting the event.

UPDATE 7:13pm

Police on bullhorns are trying to break-up the crowd outside the building on 1002 E. Palm Ave.

Many in the crowd are refusing to go.

UPDATE 7:32pm

The forum has ended early.

Anticipating problems at health care forums, Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman released the following statement today:

"Throughout the summer, we have been reaching out to Floridians to engage in an important debate on the future our health care system. We have heard story after story from people who are struggling to get the care they need. "Recently, their thoughtful discussions are being interrupted by angry mobs - well funded and organized by Washington special interests - attempting to drown out the voices of the hard-working Floridians who are desperate for health insurance reform. These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the President and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November."

You encourage angry mobs, you make jokes about lynching(And lynch in effigy), and allow death-threats and one mob to chase a lawmaker until the police get involved. And then the violence starts.

[Elfdart]

Cindy Sheehan was manhandled, cuffed and booked at the police station for wearing a fucking T-shirt. People were arrested for anti-Bush bumper stickers while others were physically prevented from bringing anti-Bush signs to his town hall meetings. But violent thugs who are bused in for the express purpose of disrupting these meetings aren't.

[Count Chocula]

You encourage angry mobs, you make jokes about lynching(And lynch in effigy), and allow death-threats and one mob to chase a lawmaker until the police get involved. And then the violence starts.

Do you have a source for this? Wups, I concede on the effigy. From what I've read, Congressmen are largely cancelling town hall meetings and ducking constituents. News reports have cited "Brooks Brothers" mobs, and Nancy Pelosi alluded to protesters wearing swastikas, but again there was no proof. Some of the protesters are accused of being paid to show up and cause a scene, but again there's no proof.

And what do the Democrats do? From the above effigy article, they contend that:

The Democratic National Committee released an advertisement Wednesday alleging that "desperate Republicans and their well-funded allies are organizing angry mobs" to "destroy President Obama."

In other words, the time-honored vague smear without proof. Is it just, perhaps, possible that constituents are pissed off about a bill that they've read, but which they know their representatives have NOT, and are shockingly making their opposition known? Hell, if you read the publicly available versions of the bill, there's plenty in them to piss off just about anyone, regardless of their political affiliation.

[SirNitram]

It always amazes me how folks like Chocula can get their jaw open to swallow so much of the party line without question.

Let's see. The stuff on the GOP being behind this...

Tea-Party members have received a memo, now leaked, from FreedomWorks, readable Here. Link contains the instruction 'Do not have an intelligent conversation.'. FreedomWorks also organized the 'Tea-Party' protests earlier this year, and is chaired by former Republican House Leader, Dick Armey.

Americans For Prosperity, another lobbyist/GOP propaganda arm, is openly busing protestors around, to the point even Fox is admitting folks from outside the districts involved are part of it. Busing and Fox Admission, complete with an embedded video if you'd like to see.

A GOP Alert went out, readable here, certainly seems to promote the activity.

Rep. Sessions gave his blessing to them, and announced 'The age of civil town halls is over'. Link.

The NRCC sent out messages and releases supporting these mobs. Link

From my earlier post... And A nice pic of the GOP of Texas supporting this

And here's something new or so.. Video Embedded Two angry mobs screaming at representatives, one chasing. Yep, chasing down a representative. No violence there, hmm?

And a nice video of joking about lynching. here.

GOP reps doing jokes about lynching. Hey, they got race violence in my psycho protestors!

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm out, I quit. I'm staying out of all this until California seceedes, then I'll join in Free Army of California to defend my homeland from the fascists.

Until then, I'm just not gonna watch the news anymore.

[Count Chocula]

Thanks for the links, Nitram. The first link looks like a local effort that apparently worked and was published by its proponents as an approach for other groups to take. Kinda like community organizer activities. Kinda like protesting day and night, loudly, in front of bank presidents' houses until they caved in to your demands. Not the approach I would have taken, however.

Your second link, re the Americans for Prosperity, looks like another more widespread community organizing effort. Interestingly, the same article also notes that the Democrats are doing the same thing:

Organizing for America, a grass-roots organization set up by the Democratic National Committee, also has held events in the state. They are calling on Congress to pass a comprehensive health-care bill.

And this group is officially sponsored by the DNC...but the Americans for Prosperity group is bad? That's not consistent.

On the "Fox Admission," you seem to be deliberately skewing the perception here Nitram: the headline of the story you linked very very clearly states that the Fox News reporter is the one who discovered that some of the protesters weren't from the Congressman's district! In other words, a Fox affiliate reported negative information about Republicans! Oh my! And by the way, judging by the report, a good portion of the Town Hall attendees did act like asshats; I think we agree there. The "how many of you are on Medicare" question the Congressman asked, with 50% of the audience raising their hands, was priceless.

Your fourth link, on the GOP alert, also had some interesting tidbits:

Witnesses say that when Doggett was asked if he would support the plan even if he found his constituents opposed it, Doggett said he would still support the plan. From there, the crowd began chanting “Just Say No,” and overwhelmed the congressman as he moved through the crowd and into the parking lot.

So Cong. Dogget just came out and said he would ignore the wishes of his constituents! Damnit, if the man represented my district I'd be pissed too. That comment alone, regardless of the topic or legislation, should cost him re-election.

Also from the GOP alert link:

“A new poll by the Pew Research Center documented both the high level of voter interest and growing reservations about the legislation. Nearly a third of those surveyed said the healthcare debate was the most important story they were following in the news -- far more than the 19% who cited the economy.”

“But more Americans oppose than favor the proposals before Congress, 44% to 38%, the poll found. Opinions break sharply along partisan lines. But among independent voters, the trends are not encouraging for Obama: Independents who said they have heard a lot about the bills in Congress oppose them by 70% to 27%, Pew found.”

I fail to see how you get from Boehner publicising reactions and polls to "certainly seems to promote the activity."

To the next link, Sessions should have kept his mouth shut about the tactics, although, with control over 20% of the economy at stake, I agree with him. Conceded. It's interesting to note that, like most controversies, the allies on one side don't always agree:

The communications director for Americans Prosperity and its anti-health reform front Patients United did try to put distance between itself and the controversial memo. The memo was written by a volunteer who frequently posts at a website called Freedom Works, affiliated with Tea Party Patriots.

"Mr. MacGuffie's memo was his own work," wrote Amy Menefee of AFP. "I would appreciate your help in correcting the erroneous rumor people have passed around that this memo came from AFP.

"We have encouraged our members to attend town halls, ask questions and register their opinions about issues including health care -- as all citizens should do. We always promote civil dialogue and do not condone disruptive behavior.

I personally agree with Ms. Menefee, and not Freedom Works. Not to glamorize the situation, but Freedom Works, and specifically Mr. MacGuffie, seem to have taken on Patrick Henry's role in this brouhaha.

On to the next link: Yes, the NRCC is pointing out the chaotic town hall meetings, but your link is to a blatantly Democrat Web site. The actual NRCC postings on their site are much more tame. Are they enjoying the chaos? Probably, but you put forth an oppositely slanted spin. Personally, I don't like the disruptive shouting/chanting tactics, no matter who does them. I prefer something like this:


Your next link, "GOP of Texas Supporting This" doesn't work, so I can't opine on the content. However, I would submit that posting a link with a "fields softballs" header hardly counts as "supporting" disruptive activities. Oh looky here, your link is a screenshot from http://thinkprogress.org/, a left wing Web site! I'm guessing they're as balanced a news source as http://www.Worldnetdaily.com or http://www.prisonplanet.com.

On to the "Video Embedded" link, also from http://www.thinkprogress.org : well whaddaya know, it's a video of Doggett's constituents (and perhaps some who are not) following him into the parking lot after he fled the town hall meeting. You know, the Doggett you referred to four links ago? The Congressman who said he would ignore his constituents' wishes on the health care bill? In other words, you are holding up the same Congressman's town hall as a separate piece of evidence. I call bullshit.

On to the last link: who the fuck is Tom Akin? That's about the most idiotic thing I've heard in the past month out of a Congressman's mouth. Gee, guess what? The Republicans have dipshits in the ranks too, it's not just a Democrat affliction.


Finally, your comments:

It always amazes me how folks like Chocula can get their jaw open to swallow so much of the party line without question.

and

GOP reps doing jokes about lynching. Hey, they got race violence in my psycho protestors!

I'm a registered Independent and voted for McCain with the greatest reluctance, perceiving him as the lesser of two evils...a John Kerry with an (R) behind his name, if you please. Save your amazement for something more consequential than your preconceived notions about me. And, way to play the dumbass comments from one Missouri Congressman into a blanket mocking of the opposing political party! Did that take practice?

[Patrick Degan]

Thanks for the links, Nitram. The first link looks like a local effort that apparently worked and was published by its proponents as an approach for other groups to take. Kinda like community organizer activities. Kinda like protesting day and night, loudly, in front of bank presidents' houses until they caved in to your demands. Not the approach I would have taken, however.

Uh huh. Let's just take a look at those "local community organiser activities", shall we:

Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign
By Brian Beutler - August 3, 2009, 6:22PM

These teabaggers disrupting congressional town halls is just a spontaneous groundswell of populist opposition to health care reform, right? Riiiight.

On Friday, July 24, a representative of Conservatives for Patients Rights--the anti-health care reform group run by disgraced hospital executive Rick Scott, in conjunction with the message men behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth--sent an email to a list serve (called the Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee) containing a spreadsheet that lists over one hundred congressional town halls from late July into September.

The email from CPR to tea baggers suggests that, though conservatives portray the tea bagger disruptions as symptoms of a populist rebellion roiling unprompted through key districts around the country, they have to a great extent been orchestrated by anti-health care reform groups financed by industry. (CPR did not immediately respond to a request for comment.)

That email predates by about a week a recent flurry of events at which Democratic members of Congress have been accosted and harassed by anti-health care reform tea party protesters. But beyond putting those spectacles, now receiving wide play on cable news, into a fresh light, it also provides a window into the tea party protesters' organizing infrastructure, which, like so much political organizing today, occurs in private email list serves.

Earlier today, I reported that a Freedom Works volunteer, and tea party protester, named Robert MacGuffie had authored a strategy memo for his fellow activists--a playbook of sorts for protesters seeking to disrupt and harass members of Congress during town hall forums in their districts.

MacGuffie and four friends lead a group called Right Principles, described as "a communication and organizing platform so those for whom our core beliefs...ring true." Despite his connection to Freedom Works, MacGuffie insisted to me that his group is unaffiliated with the wealthy conservative interest groups that have fronted the right wing tea party events.

But his memo nonetheless found its way to hundreds of tea party activists, including the very organizations MacGuffie insists he's unaffiliated with.

Like many political movements in the country, the so-called Tea Party Patriots organize on a number of email list serves--an eponymous google group, one called Health Care Freedom Tea Party, the aforementioned Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee--where the broader community of tea baggers, including those working independently, co-ordinate.

MacGuffie's memo was posted to the Tea Party Patriots' list serve, which is hundreds of members large, and includes representatives from not just small protest groups, but also major anti-health reform organizations such as Conservatives for Patients Rights, and Patients First, Patients United Now (an affiliate of Americans for Prosperity), and, yes, Freedom Works.

With such broad and powerful memberships, the group is able to co-ordinate protests and counter protests at events hosted by members of Congress and pro-reform groups. And that's just what they've been doing, and plan to do much more over the August congressional recess, during which many believe the fate of health care reform will be decided.

This isn't the first time private correspondence on these list serves has opened a window into the tea bagger id. Last month, TPMMuckraker's Zack Roth broke the story of Dr. David McKalip--a high profile anti-health care reformer who forwarded a racist email to fellow activists on what Zack described as a "Google listserv affiliated with the Tea Party movement." Once exposed, McKalip withdrew from public activism, to the great, effusive dismay of his supporters on that list. In addition, then, to organizing shout downs at town halls, these list serves are used as a hub for those who like to guffaw at pictures of Barack Obama with a bone through his nose.

Late update: By what must be a complete coincidence, CPR's website contains a list of the same town hall forums on its website, "provided as a resource for our visitors." It also contains a separate page, where the group hosts videos of the same town hall disruptions which, behind the scenes, it's doing whatever it can to encourage.

And:

Tea Party Town Hall Strategy: "Rattle Them," "Stand Up And Shout"
By Brian Beutler - August 3, 2009, 1:33PM

As Rachel Slajda reported earlier this afternoon, there seems to be a growing incidence of members of Congress being shouted down at town hall events by tea party protestors. Those tactics will likely become much more common. As Think Progress first reported, one tea-party friendly group has disseminated a strategy memo for other anti-reform and anti-government groups, outlining what they consider best-practices for protesters who plan to enter and disrupt town hall events hosted by members of Congress over the August recess--practices that, according to the memo, "could be useful to activists in just about any district where their Congressperson has supported the socialist agenda of the Democrat leadership in Washington."

The memo, authored by Robert MacGuffie, who runs the website rightprinciples.com, suggests that tea partiers should "pack the hall... spread out" to make their numbers seem more significant, and to "rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation...to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early.... to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda...stand up and shout and sit right back down."

MacGuffie is a volunteer for FreedomWorks, the industry funded group that helps organize and support the tea party protests. But he denies that his small group has any direct affiliation with FreedomWorks. "We are recommending with that memo that other grassroots groups that share our view should go to the townhalls of their members and use the strategy that we did," MacGuffie told me, confirming the memo's authenticity. "We are trying to get into that town halls to make them understand that they do not have the unanimous support from people in their communities."

If these tactics catch on, and August recess health care events are characterized by organized agit-prop, it could have a dramatic impact on the tenor of the health care debate, and the media coverage of the events this month. Buckle your seatbelts.

Furthermore, in the Austin American Statesman extract quoted Rep. Boehner's blogsite, we do not have a direct quote from Rep. Dogget but "Witnesses say" he said something before the "spontaneous local constituent" mob started chanting "just say no" until everybody's ears started to bleed from it. That is what we call hearsay and is useless as evidence for anything.

Additionally, you are engaging in outright handwaving when the evidence is showing a nationally-coordinated campaign financed and directed by industry shills to prevent supporters of the Obama health reform plan from speaking substantively to their audiences. One or two such incidents in disparate locations might be purely spontaneous, but when it occurs at multiple townhall venues and all following more or less the same script, that ceases to have any remote resemblance to local spontaneous protest and takes on the resemblance to national coordination, by industry shills, of groups of agents-provocateur in operation.

[SirNitram]

I can see dismissing Chocula's copy-pasted retorts is well in hand, and better than I'd do right now. (Meds, WHEEEEEEE.)

So I'll continue covering conservatives, egged on by the GOP and it's associated groups, resorting to violence(By the way, if they were simply saying 'Show up, ask tough questions, here's examples', I'd merely mock them for peddling lies as usual, as opposed to my current stance. Hence my lack of Giving A Shit that OFA is involved in the challenging. They are not committing VIOLENCE.).

Speaking of.. Link

MEHLVILLE -- St. Louis County police on Thursday arrested at least four people, including a Post-Dispatch reporter, outside a town hall forum held by Rep. Russ Carnahan, said Dawn Majors, a Post-Dispatch photojournalist who witnessed everything unfold.

It happened about 8:30 p.m at Bernard Middle School on Forder Road in Mehlville. Carnahan, D-St. Louis, had drawn a rowdy crowd that overflowed the school gym and left dozens of people outside. Many of those who showed up at what had been billed as a forum on aging carried signs about the national health-care debate.

Dozens of people were kept out because there was no room for them inside. Members of the local Tea Party Coalition, a movement that has emerged to counter President Barack Obama’s policies, had urged their members to attend, which in turn spurred Democrats to establish a strong presence.

The event was winding down when Majors said she saw a police squad car turn its lights on and went to see what was happening. As she approached it, her eyes started to burn.

“And that's when I realized I'd walked through remnants of pepper spray,” Majors said. She turned her attention to taking pictures.

She said she saw a woman in handcuffs who was complaining about the pain of the spray and asking to wash her face and eyes. The response of the officer who was arresting her was, “I warned you,” Majors said.

Majors said the woman had been speaking very loudly and passionately in support of health-care reform earlier in the evening.

“She made herself very visible,” Majors said.

She also saw a man handcuffed and on his stomach. The man kept asking why he was being arrested, Majors said. An officer nearby said she wasn't the arresting officer, but she would let him know later. That response upset the man on the ground, she said.

Another man was sitting on the ground rubbing his knee, but was not handcuffed. Majors said she heard an officer tell him that he would be taken to jail and booked.

She also saw Post-Dispatch reporter Jake Wagman, who was reporting on the event and shooting video for stltoday.com. He was standing on a sidewalk, taking video.

As she photographed everything, Majors said she heard Wagman yell her name and say that he was being arrested. She turned and saw he had been handcuffed and was being put in the back of a squad car. The officer said Wagman had been interfering, Majors said.

She said she did not see what led up to his arrest.

Efforts to get the police version of what happened have been unsuccessful as of 10 p.m.

UPDATE: UPDATE: St. Louis County police say six people were arrested. Two of those were arrested on suspicion of assault, one of resisting arrest and three on suspicion of committing peace disturbances. Carnahan was gone when the ruckus started.

Kenneth Gladney, a 38-year-old conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don't tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

“It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked,” he said.

Angry mobs. They don't care whose side your own, they don't care whose side they're on. They're just angry, destructive entities that break shit. Often people. Inspiring angry mobs to this sort of behavior, creating these powder kegs, should be fucking outlawed.

[Elfdart]

Several members of the Chicago Eight were convicted of crossing state lines to incite a riot*, even though they took no part in any violent acts. So it is in fact, illegal.

*The convictions were overturned because the judge in the case ran such a ridiculous show trial, and because the Justice Department concluded that Mayor Daley's thugs were the ones rioting.

[Siege]

Sponsoring mobs to make the life of your ideological opponents difficult; how civilized. This is not as bad as Fatah vs. Hamas, but sometimes I wonder how long it'll be before it gets there...

[Elfdart]

TPM

Now they're calling for fellow Teabaggers to bring guns to these meetings:

Anti-Health Care Reform Protester Encourages Physical Violence, Use Of Firearms
By Brian Beutler - August 7, 2009, 2:20PM

Based on the news that health care events are edging into violence, an anti-health care reform protester in New Mexico named Scott Oskay is calling on his hundreds of online followers to bring firearms to town halls, and to 'badly hurt' SEIU and ACORN counter protesters.

Popularized in part by conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, the hashtag symbol he's using, #iamthemob, has gone viral on twitter, appearing several times a minute according to a recent search.

Anti-reform activists have scheduled a protest outside SEIU Missouri offices tomorrow, and officials there are taking these threats seriously.

Late update: Looks like they're also getting death threats by phone.

Remember, Andrew Meyer was grappled, tasered, cuffed and booked for asking a meandering question about the Skull & Bones Society. Where the fuck are the police? The FBI? The Secret Service?

[Elfdart]

Oh this is nice:

LINK

Among the many eyebrow-raising clips aired on major news networks yesterday from Senator Claire McCaskill's health care town hall was one of a women being half-escorted, half-dragged from the building.

What the clip failed to catch was that the woman was provoked. She and a few other women had brought posters to the town hall, but they rolled them up after being booed and berated by the crowd. When the woman unrolled one to show to a journalist, an angry man in the crowd rushed over and tore it up. A poster of what, you ask? Rosa Parks. When the woman moved to take her poster back, the police stepped in and escorted both parties from the building. But only the woman made national news.

KCStar/Mike Hendricks

The hearing included a confrontation in the crowd, when a man approached 52-year-old Maxine Johnson of St. Louis and ripped her sign that showed a picture of Rosa Parks sitting on a bus that read, “First Lady of Civil Rights.”

The man was arrested on suspicion of assault; his name was not released. Johnson was led out of the auditorium but was not arrested.

[Nephtys]

Isn't this what happened in the early Roman Revolution? Demogaugery and going outside legal procedures, or pushing what is 'acceptable', until sides bring armed supporters to their opponent's meetings?

[Samuel]

Isn't this what happened in the early Roman Revolution? Demogaugery and going outside legal procedures, or pushing what is 'acceptable', until sides bring armed supporters to their opponent's meetings?

Which one are we talking about? The struggle of the orders? The attempts at land reform?

[Nephtys]

Isn't this what happened in the early Roman Revolution? Demogaugery and going outside legal procedures, or pushing what is 'acceptable', until sides bring armed supporters to their opponent's meetings?

Which one are we talking about? The struggle of the orders? The attempts at land reform?

Land Reform. Where the issue didn't really matter, just that people started to push the system more and more.

[Crossroads Inc.]

this is a bad place to be.. On the one hand I can see Obama saying "Don't arrest them don't give them place to cry foul, don't touch them, just let them be idioic. And on the other hand, if you DON"T start cracking skulls and arrest these people who are CLEARLY incciting to riot, someones eventually going to get shot. mark my words

[Glocksman]

TPM

Now they're calling for fellow Teabaggers to bring guns to these meetings:

As I admitted in another thread, I considered legally carrying a gun myself to an SEIU pro reform rally because some of the more unhinged assholes who post comments on my local paper's website were issuing veiled threats.

In the end I decided not to, and it wasn't needed.

That said, these assholes seem to be deluded into thinking that healthcare reform supporters are all a bunch of lotus eating pacifists who'll flee in terror at the first sign of violence.
They're wrong.

Though I'd be more effective 'fighting for my cause' by packing an HD vidcam during a wingnut riot instead of a .45 auto.
I'm young and large enough that most of the wingers would overlook me in favor of easier targets, and the HD footage of some teabagger clubbing a 60 year old female Catholic 'social justice' activist over the head would be a 'game changer' as far as public opinion is concerned.


Of course my problem then would be resisting the temptation to drop the camera and start whaling on the teabagger.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Remember, Andrew Meyer was grappled, tasered, cuffed and booked for asking a meandering question about the Skull & Bones Society. Where the fuck are the police? The FBI? The Secret Service?

Actually, he was tasered for resisting arrest. He was arrested for refusing to leave after being asked to leave because he took the mic away from someone whose turn it was to speak. Dishonesty won't win you any battles, Elfdart. You need to be better than your opponents.

Now, your question is fair but you need to cite an arrestable offense and it might help if you look up the city or state code that backs that arrest.

[Elfdart]

Remember, Andrew Meyer was grappled, tasered, cuffed and booked for asking a meandering question about the Skull & Bones Society. Where the fuck are the police? The FBI? The Secret Service?

Actually, he was tasered for resisting arrest. He was arrested for refusing to leave after being asked to leave because he took the mic away from someone whose turn it was to speak. Dishonesty won't win you any battles, Elfdart. You need to be better than your opponents.

I see the point went right over your head. Meyer was ordered to leave when he started asking his rambling question, which led to him refusing to leave, being grappled by several cops, tasered and taken to the police station. Until the most recent incidents, the police did nothing while hoodlums disrupted the meetings, which shows a clear double standard.

Now, your question is fair but you need to cite an arrestable offense and it might help if you look up the city or state code that backs that arrest.

If Henry Louis Gates can be arrested in his own home for "disorderly conduct" for shouting at a police officer, then surely these junior league Blackshirts (sans castor oil) can also be arrested for "disorderly conduct" when they make it impossible for others to speak. Andrew Meyer's antics were laughable (even before the "Don't taser me, Bro!" bit) in comparison, yet the Teabaggers aren't so much as ordered to leave.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I see the point went right over your head. Meyer was ordered to leave when he started asking his rambling question, which led to him refusing to leave, being grappled by several cops, tasered and taken to the police station. Until the most recent incidents, the police did nothing while hoodlums disrupted the meetings, which shows a clear double standard.

Were these disruptive people asked to leave? If not then you have no case. Do you have any examples that are a direct match to those incidents where people were arrested?

If Henry Louis Gates can be arrested in his own home for "disorderly conduct" for shouting at a police officer, then surely these junior league Blackshirts (sans castor oil) can also be arrested for "disorderly conduct" when they make it impossible for others to speak. Andrew Meyer's antics were laughable (even before the "Don't taser me, Bro!" bit) in comparison, yet the Teabaggers aren't so much as ordered to leave.

Fuck. I think anyone that states Prof. Gates was arrested inside his own home should have "Dumbass" tattooed to the front of his head, and then "arrested" tattooed to the back of his left hand and then "outside" to the back of his right hand. Hopefully then the facts will sink in...

These people can't be arrested INSIDE a building or in a private forum where debate is expected and/or a permit for protest has been secured. You're implying a huge conspiracy and supporting it by citing examples and then either taking them out of context or flat out distorting the situation.

Furthermore, the police can't order anyone to leave any private function until the host or owner of that private function tells them to make that person leave which is EXACTLY what happened with Meyers.

[Elfdart]

Were these disruptive people asked to leave? If not then you have no case. Do you have any examples that are a direct match to those incidents where people were arrested?

Furthermore, the police can't order anyone to leave any private function until the host or owner of that private function tells them to make that person leave which is EXACTLY what happened with Meyers.

According to the head of the Accent Speakers Bureau, who organized the John Kerry speech (where Myer was tasered), the police acted on their own:

LINK

Meyer incident won't affect Accent security policy, chairman says
By DEVIN CULCLASURE, Alligator Writer
Despite a Monday incident where officers of the University Police Department Tasered and arrested a UF student during a speech by Sen. John Kerry, Student Government's speakers bureau will continue to operate normally, an SG official said Tuesday.

Steven Blank, Accent chairman, said he didn't think the incident warranted any major changes in Accent's security policy.

"In 40 years, we've never had this sort of situation," Blank said. "We have been doing the same thing for a very long time, and we will continue to do it."


Andrew Meyer, a telecommunication senior, was arrested and Tasered by UPD officers during a question-and-answer session with Kerry, a Democrat who represents Massachusetts and a former presidential candidate.

Police moved in after Blank ordered Meyer's microphone to be cut off when Meyer used profanity.

"We make it clear that any profanity and vulgarity by anyone asking questions will result in a cutting off of the mike," Blank said.

Police are typically present to maintain a professional atmosphere when a prominent figure speaks, Blank said, but he declined to comment on whether he thought the use of a Taser was necessary.

"The police are there with the general understanding that they are there to keep order," he said. "They acted independently of Accent."

He also declined to offer his personal reaction to the incident, only saying, "It was a wonderful speech on behalf of Senator Kerry."

Blank said police would still be present at speeches for prominent Accent speakers in the future.

In other words, you are full of shit.

Fuck. I think anyone that states Prof. Gates was arrested inside his own home should have "Dumbass" tattooed to the front of his head, and then "arrested" tattooed to the back of his left hand and then "outside" to the back of his right hand. Hopefully then the facts will sink in...

Fuck. I think anyone who brings up the red herring of whether Gates was in his house or on his front porch when he told the police officer to buzz off needs the words "Semantics Whore" tattooed to the front of his head.

These people can't be arrested INSIDE a building or in a private forum where debate is expected and/or a permit for protest has been secured. You're implying a huge conspiracy and supporting it by citing examples and then either taking them out of context or flat out distorting the situation.

Tell that to Cindy Sheehan:

NY Daily News

Sheehan, whose soldier son died in Iraq, was hauled from her seat in the House gallery, handcuffed and arrested after an officer spotted her shirt with the message "2,245 Dead. How many more?"

Police are dropping an unlawful conduct charge against her.

Another cop ordered Beverly Young, the wife of Florida Rep. Bill Young, to leave because her shirt said, "Support the Troops - Defending Our Freedom."

"The officers made a good-faith but mistaken effort to enforce an old, unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," said Chief Terrance Gainer.

Young said she argued with the cop who kicked her out. "I said, 'Read my shirt, it is not a protest,' " she told the St. Petersburg Times. "They said, 'We consider that a protest.' I said, 'Then you are an idiot.' "

Apparently, she had a point.

Police did not explain why Sheehan was arrested and Young was not. Sheehan, who became an icon of the anti-war movement when she protested outside President Bush's Texas ranch last summer, has threatened to sue.

Could you imagine Sheehan lurking outside Dubya's phony ranch in Crawford with a gun strapped to her waist? Or Medea Benjamin and the others from Code Pink disrupting public events without being arrested? If you're too much of a dishonest fucktard to notice the obvious double standard, then you are one dumb twat.

[Kamakazie Sith]

According to the head of the Accent Speakers Bureau, who organized the John Kerry speech (where Myer was tasered), the police acted on their own:

LINK

Meyer incident won't affect Accent security policy, chairman says
By DEVIN CULCLASURE, Alligator Writer
Despite a Monday incident where officers of the University Police Department Tasered and arrested a UF student during a speech by Sen. John Kerry, Student Government's speakers bureau will continue to operate normally, an SG official said Tuesday.

Steven Blank, Accent chairman, said he didn't think the incident warranted any major changes in Accent's security policy.

"In 40 years, we've never had this sort of situation," Blank said. "We have been doing the same thing for a very long time, and we will continue to do it."

Andrew Meyer, a telecommunication senior, was arrested and Tasered by UPD officers during a question-and-answer session with Kerry, a Democrat who represents Massachusetts and a former presidential candidate.

Police moved in after Blank ordered Meyer's microphone to be cut off when Meyer used profanity.

"We make it clear that any profanity and vulgarity by anyone asking questions will result in a cutting off of the mike," Blank said.

Police are typically present to maintain a professional atmosphere when a prominent figure speaks, Blank said, but he declined to comment on whether he thought the use of a Taser was necessary.

"The police are there with the general understanding that they are there to keep order," he said. "They acted independently of Accent."

He also declined to offer his personal reaction to the incident, only saying, "It was a wonderful speech on behalf of Senator Kerry."

Blank said police would still be present at speeches for prominent Accent speakers in the future.

In other words, you are full of shit.

The investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement interviewed the officers and they stated they were told by a ACCENT staff member that it was time for Andrew Meyer to leave. See section III second paragraph of the report.
I think there was some confusion there because later on in the report in section VI paragraphs 2 & 3 they state that ACCENT didn't make that decision to remove him but just cut him off. However, they also stated that it is common place for University police to decide when to remove an unruling person from the crowd. The university also has ordinances in effect that give their police that power, see section I 877.13.

Fuck. I think anyone who brings up the red herring of whether Gates was in his house or on his front porch when he told the police officer to buzz off needs the words "Semantics Whore" tattooed to the front of his head.

Red herring my ass. Your synopsis of the arrest is not only inaccurate and dishonest but if true it would make the arrest illegal and subject the arresting officer to investigation by the FBI for civil rights violations because it would have occurred inside his own home which is considered the most private areas you can be. It's not semantics, but a critical distinction.

Tell that to Cindy Sheehan:

NY Daily News

Sheehan, whose soldier son died in Iraq, was hauled from her seat in the House gallery, handcuffed and arrested after an officer spotted her shirt with the message "2,245 Dead. How many more?"

Police are dropping an unlawful conduct charge against her.

Another cop ordered Beverly Young, the wife of Florida Rep. Bill Young, to leave because her shirt said, "Support the Troops - Defending Our Freedom."

"The officers made a good-faith but mistaken effort to enforce an old, unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," said Chief Terrance Gainer.

Young said she argued with the cop who kicked her out. "I said, 'Read my shirt, it is not a protest,' " she told the St. Petersburg Times. "They said, 'We consider that a protest.' I said, 'Then you are an idiot.' "

Apparently, she had a point.

Police did not explain why Sheehan was arrested and Young was not. Sheehan, who became an icon of the anti-war movement when she protested outside President Bush's Texas ranch last summer, has threatened to sue.

Tell what to Cindy Sheehan? Your example sucks asshole. Yes, the police were in the wrong because the rule they were enforcing was apparently old and no longer enforced, but it was still once an ordinance in a private government building where protesting is not allowed! As for why they treated Young differently than Sheehan...that could be a number of variables. Officers do have discretion when making an arrest so unless it was the same officers who arrested Sheehan then you don't have much to go on. Even if it were it won't support your implication that there is a nationwide conspiracy.

Could you imagine Sheehan lurking outside Dubya's phony ranch in Crawford with a gun strapped to her waist? Or Medea Benjamin and the others from Code Pink disrupting public events without being arrested? If you're too much of a dishonest fucktard to notice the obvious double standard, then you are one dumb twat.

I don't know. What are the gun carrying laws by those ranches? Furthermore, I never said that a double standard didn't exist. I'm complaining about your lazy or dishonest misrepresentation of certain actions so you can use them to support your position. It can't possibly be that hard for you to come up with something that shows a clear cut example of a double standard.

Not surprising when I perform a search on google for I find the same examples you've been citing and they're described in exactly the same inaccurate manner.

Then you cite Code Pink. I wonder are we going to find a double standard or were those activists engaged in illegal activity? I like how you refuse to cite a specific example...

So, I'll ask you again. Are you going to cite specific examples where anti-health care nuts are engaged in illegal activity along with the criminal statute that they are violating and showing that special circumstances such as protest permit, or private grounds do not exist?

[Elfdart]

I think there was some confusion there because later on in the report in section VI paragraphs 2 & 3 they state that ACCENT didn't make that decision to remove him but just cut him off. However, they also stated that it is common place for University police to decide when to remove an unruling person from the crowd. The university also has ordinances in effect that give their police that power, see section I 877.13.

Oh, so they can remove troublemakers without prior approval from event organizers.

Red herring my ass. Your synopsis of the arrest is not only inaccurate and dishonest but if true it would make the arrest illegal and subject the arresting officer to investigation by the FBI for civil rights violations because it would have occurred inside his own home which is considered the most private areas you can be. It's not semantics, but a critical distinction.

It is a red herring because the issue is whether someone is disturbing the peace. Which is more disturbing to public order, a man bitching at a police officer from his front porch? Or a mob of hoodlums who deliberately disrupt a public meeting? Whether Gates was on his front porch, in his living room, wading in a swimming pool or in his garage is irrelevant, you semantics-whoring asshole.

Officers do have discretion when making an arrest

Now you admit it. Nice.

Even if it were it won't support your implication that there is a nationwide conspiracy.

You can shove your strawman up your ass sideways, fuckhead. Pointing out a double standard has nothing to do with a conspiracy.

I don't know. What are the gun carrying laws by those ranches? Furthermore, I never said that a double standard didn't exist.

You certainly implied it when I mentioned the double standard and you strawmanned that into a "conspiracy".

Then you cite Code Pink. I wonder are we going to find a double standard or were those activists engaged in illegal activity? I like how you refuse to cite a specific example...

So, I'll ask you again. Are you going to cite specific examples where anti-health care nuts are engaged in illegal activity along with the criminal statute that they are violating and showing that special circumstances such as protest permit, or private grounds do not exist?

That's funny, since you yourself advocated busting people on trumped-up charges:

Man I saw that guy on the news earlier, several different times, they kept going back to him again and again, and every signal time he wasn’t doing a damn thing except holding that sign in a crowd of other people. Ten to one they bullshitted an excuse up to arrest him, since open carry is 100% legal in New Hampshire. I highly doubt he tried to get into anything.

As for the truck, bomb dogs will ‘hit’ on the smell of gunpowder so odds are if that was legit at all it was because the dog smelled handgun ammo.

I totally support them "bullshitting" a reason to arrest someone who is choosing to take an action that is going to alarm a significant number of people.

So, Kamikaze Sith speaks with forked tongue.

[Vaporous]

Isn't this what happened in the early Roman Revolution? Demogaugery and going outside legal procedures, or pushing what is 'acceptable', until sides bring armed supporters to their opponent's meetings?

So next is Clodius and Milo? That's a comforting thought.

This reminds me of something Duchess said not too long ago. I forget the exact wording, but the idea was "When liberals think they're being oppressed they stage sit ins and peace marches and chain themselves to doors; when conservatives think they're being oppressed they buy guns and fertilizer and weld armor plates onto their trucks".

Or, in this case, bring guns into town hall meetings to bring intimidation and the threat of violence into American politics. I hope it doesn't take a bloodbath for this to be seen for the madness it is.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh, so they can remove troublemakers without prior approval from event organizers.

I forget that University police operate on a different set of rules than city police. In that case the university police represent the property management or the university administration. In that report I cited ACCENT even states that is the way things are handled and have been handled.

So, in a nutshell. They already have prior approval to remove anyone who meets a certain criteria in Meyers case being intentionally disruptive which a more depth investigation revealed was his intention.

It is a red herring because the issue is whether someone is disturbing the peace. Which is more disturbing to public order, a man bitching at a police officer from his front porch? Or a mob of hoodlums who deliberately disrupt a public meeting? Whether Gates was on his front porch, in his living room, wading in a swimming pool or in his garage is irrelevant, you semantics-whoring asshole.

I agree. The mob is more disruptive, however, it also depends on local laws which may be different from state to state. Another issue that you're failing to consider is the number of police officers present at this event and what their resources were at the time. Did they have the numbers to safety arrest ring leaders? Did the event organizers ask the police to remove these disruptive people?

The point I'm trying to make to you is there are more factors to consider when you're dealing with a public meeting like this where debate, emotions are expected. Other things to consider is if a permit for protest was secured and if there were free speech zones in effect and were these people in these zones?

Here's an example. A lesson learned by SLCPD during some of the anti-mormon protests. They had the free speech zones setup in such a place that it impaired access to the mormon church and there was nothing that SLCPD could do about it.

So, no if anyone is guilty of a red herring it is you. You're bringing up a completely different situation and saying "look DOUBLE STANDARD!!!"

Now you admit it. Nice.

Admit what? Are you going to start claiming I implied officers weren't allowed to use discretion? No, the reason why I brought up discretion is because in order to prove a double standard you'd have to show that the same officers acted differently in the same situation but the only difference would be the subjects political standing.

In other words you'd need to an Andrew Meyer or a white Gates acting in the same manner and the same officers arrive and treat them the opposite. Or, a police policy is handled differently with a similar situation but the political message is different. You've been citing the anti-war protests which is good. I'm sure a valid example is in there.

You can shove your strawman up your ass sideways, fuckhead. Pointing out a double standard has nothing to do with a conspiracy.

I apologize. You're not claiming a conspiracy.

You certainly implied it when I mentioned the double standard and you strawmanned that into a "conspiracy".

Well, that was more of me pushing your buttons. It's still wrong though, sorry. Anyway, I'm glad we got this cleared up.

That's funny, since you yourself advocated busting people on trumped-up charges:

That was the second time I've asked you for evidence. This will be the third. Are you going to continue to ignore my request?

So, Kamikaze Sith speaks with forked tongue.

No, more like an emotional tongue because open carry enthusiasts piss me off with their irresponsible actions. You're right though it would be wrong to fabricate charges, but I still wouldn't blame anyone who did. Though I have to ask exactly what does this have to do with my challenge to you? Or are you trying to change this discussion into something personal and make it about me and my own personal feelings regarding certain members of our society.