Afghanistan legalizes rape

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wautd
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Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by wautd »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/au ... ights-rape
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ma ... nistan-law
Afghanistan passes 'barbaric' law diminishing women's rights

Afghanistan has quietly passed a law permitting Shia men to deny their wives food and sustenance if they refuse to obey their husbands' sexual demands, despite international outrage over an earlier version of the legislation which President Hamid Karzai had promised to review.

The new final draft of the legislation also grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers, and requires women to get permission from their husbands to work.

"It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying 'blood money' to a girl who was injured when he raped her," the US charity Human Rights Watch said.

In early April, Barack Obama and Gordon Brown joined an international chorus of condemnation when the Guardian revealed that the earlier version of the law legalised rape within marriage, according to the UN.

Although Karzai appeared to back down, activists say the revised version of the law still contains repressive measures and contradicts the Afghan constitution and international treaties signed by the country.

Islamic law experts and human rights activists say that although the language of the original law has been changed, many of the provisions that alarmed women's rights groups remain, including this one: "Tamkeen is the readiness of the wife to submit to her husband's reasonable sexual enjoyment, and her prohibition from going out of the house, except in extreme circumstances, without her husband's permission. If any of the above provisions are not followed by the wife she is considered disobedient."

The law has been backed by the hardline Shia cleric Ayatollah Mohseni, who is thought to have influence over the voting intentions of some of the country's Shias, which make up around 20% of the population. Karzai has assiduously courted such minority leaders in the run up to next Thursday's election, which is likely to be a close run thing, according to a poll released yesterday.

Human Rights Watch, which has obtained a copy of the final law, called on all candidates to pledge to repeal the law, which it says contradicts Afghanistan's own constitution.

The group said that Karzai had "made an unthinkable deal to sell Afghan women out in the support of fundamentalists in the August 20 election".

Brad Adams, the organisation's Asia director, said: "The rights of Afghan women are being ripped up by powerful men who are using women as pawns in manoeuvres to gain power.

"These kinds of barbaric laws were supposed to have been relegated to the past with the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001, yet Karzai has revived them and given them his official stamp of approval."

The latest opinion poll by US democracy group the International Republican Institute showed that although Karzai was up 13 points to 44% since the last survey in May, his closest rival, Abdullah Abdullah, had soared from 7% to 26%.

If those numbers prove accurate, it would mean the contest would have to go to a second round run-off vote in early October. In that scenario, 50% of voters said they would vote for Karzai and 29% for Abdullah.

The survey was conducted in mid to late July, so it is not known whether Abdullah has made further gains on Karzai.

He could further increase his chance of victory by joining forces with Ashraf Ghani, the former finance minister who is also running on a platform fiercely critical of Karzai.

Fifty-eight per cent of the 2,400 people polled by IRI said they would like to see an alliance between Abdullah and Ghani, who is polling in fourth place
Such an enlightened culture in backwardistan isn't it?
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

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Afghanistan is a backward shithole, did we really expect anything different?
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

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B-but, democracy! This can't be right, we brought them democracy!

It's to be expected, I suppose, since IIRC the Taliban did make a resurgence a while ago, meaning that there's obviously some support for this sort of crap in the populace.
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

Post by Norseman »

You know I think this blog post Should women have the right to divorce explains the mindset involved better than anyone else could. No really, y'all should read it, it's too long to post here, and see if you don't agree that it explains exactly what's going on. Better yet this was written by a, presumably, white male in a first world country, there's a bit of a lolbertarian vibe too.
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

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Norseman wrote:You know I think this blog post Should women have the right to divorce explains the mindset involved better than anyone else could. No really, y'all should read it, it's too long to post here, and see if you don't agree that it explains exactly what's going on. Better yet this was written by a, presumably, white male in a first world country, there's a bit of a lolbertarian vibe too.
Unbelievable bullshit that is based on an incorrect premise. The stupid writer seems to think than Homo sapiens is like Panthera leo. Even chimpanzee society does not work like that. Chimpanzee "beta" males are in general allowed to live in the society and sometimes even reproduce as long as they don't try to usurp the leader position unsuccessfully. He should go and see how hunter-gatherer human societies work. And whaddya know -- most of them allow women to divorce or at least have the same kind of divorce rules for both sexes.

He also claims tha patriarchy is required for civilization for which there is no evidence. Agriculture is required for civilization and agriculture was in most cases accompanied by the rise of patriarchy. Not in all cases originally, but the exceptions got swamped by influence from neighboring patriarchal cultures.
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

Post by open_sketchbook »

Take two steps forward, one step back...

While I remain hopeful, overall, for Afghanistan, this is of stuff is incredibly depressing. It isn't enough to merely bring Democracy!™ because the mindset of these people is such that they will support shit like this, and the only thing that can change that is positive foriegn influence over a long period of time. But it's worth it, damn it, if simply to have a starting point for this cultural exportation. The idea sounds totally non-PC but last I checked we weren't trying to legalize marital rape (with the exception of a few radical right-wing organizations, but what would life be without crazy people delivering us all entertainment? Just, in Afghanistan they appear to be running the show.)
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Re: Afghanistan lagalizes rape

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Not that it's any more excusable, but to give a little perspective marital rape was only made illegal in the UK (or more accurately, the marital rape exemption was abolished) in 1991.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Horrendous spelling mistake in topic heading fixed. :P
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Let's hear it for blowing billions of dollars and thousands of lives on Afghanistan to bring them truth, justice, freedom and equality for all!

Maybe as envisioned by a Sith lord....
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Perhaps a policy of arming the women and disarming the men would have yielded better results?
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by Chris OFarrell »

Uh this IS democracy in action no? If you have a country full of backward thinking religious fundamentalist nutters, the vast majority without any education outside of reciting the Koran, what do you THINK the will of the people will be on issues like this?

Of course, a lot of people expected they would embrace *Western Secular democracy* for some crazy reason, and act surprised when this kind of backwards tribal religious shit happens in such a backwards tribal religious part of the world...
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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That's it. ISAF should just threaten to totally bail on them unless this is changed.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by Samuel »

Solauren wrote:Let's hear it for blowing billions of dollars and thousands of lives on Afghanistan to bring them truth, justice, freedom and equality for all!

Maybe as envisioned by a Sith lord....
The Sith don't do this kind of shit- they are more kill if you disobey or use mindcontrol to get sex.

On topic I can't see why people are surprised. This is a country that made apostacy illegal and threatened to carry it out. This is a nation that has a LE in the 40s. This is a nation that Colombia sends troops to help support.

We should have let the Soviets have it in the 80s. I'm not sure if they could have made it worse even if it was run by the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by Solauren »

Samuel wrote:
Solauren wrote:Let's hear it for blowing billions of dollars and thousands of lives on Afghanistan to bring them truth, justice, freedom and equality for all!

Maybe as envisioned by a Sith lord....
The Sith don't do this kind of shit- they are more kill if you disobey or use mindcontrol to get sex.

On topic I can't see why people are surprised. This is a country that made apostacy illegal and threatened to carry it out. This is a nation that has a LE in the 40s. This is a nation that Colombia sends troops to help support.

We should have let the Soviets have it in the 80s. I'm not sure if they could have made it worse even if it was run by the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin.
Why isn't the UN doing something about this then? Or at least the countries that kicked out the Taliban in the first place?
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Solauren wrote:
Samuel wrote:
Solauren wrote:Let's hear it for blowing billions of dollars and thousands of lives on Afghanistan to bring them truth, justice, freedom and equality for all!

Maybe as envisioned by a Sith lord....
The Sith don't do this kind of shit- they are more kill if you disobey or use mindcontrol to get sex.

On topic I can't see why people are surprised. This is a country that made apostacy illegal and threatened to carry it out. This is a nation that has a LE in the 40s. This is a nation that Colombia sends troops to help support.

We should have let the Soviets have it in the 80s. I'm not sure if they could have made it worse even if it was run by the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin.
Why isn't the UN doing something about this then? Or at least the countries that kicked out the Taliban in the first place?
What makes you think the UN has the power to do anything about this besides whine loudly?
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Chris OFarrell wrote:Uh this IS democracy in action no? If you have a country full of backward thinking religious fundamentalist nutters, the vast majority without any education outside of reciting the Koran, what do you THINK the will of the people will be on issues like this?

Of course, a lot of people expected they would embrace *Western Secular democracy* for some crazy reason, and act surprised when this kind of backwards tribal religious shit happens in such a backwards tribal religious part of the world...
There are people who assume that democracy is the path to westernisation rather than the vice versa.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Were's all the feminist when you really need them :wink:
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Solauren wrote:Why isn't the UN doing something about this then? Or at least the countries that kicked out the Taliban in the first place?
What do you suppose they DO? They build schools, establish infrastructure, invite economies.
The question is rather what do you get? Acid attacks on schoolgirls, bombs on schools, nepotism in companies (this was not unexpected, though), and attacks on the soldiers and companies protecting civilian.
For a time having a German flag on your arm was considered as a second safety vest - they were less likely to be under attack due to their massive humanitarian efforts! Only after increased attacks on German troops in course of the elections for the Bundestag to lessen the public support in Germany had the help been reduced.
So, yeah. They're doing something about it. The stupids are resisting, though.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by Themightytom »

dragon wrote:Were's all the feminist when you really need them :wink:

probably being starved because they won't give it up :wtf:

Now is this grounds for a woman coming to the US and requesting asylum? if she's refusing her husband she's pretty much refusing the government.

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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Chris OFarrell wrote:Uh this IS democracy in action no? If you have a country full of backward thinking religious fundamentalist nutters, the vast majority without any education outside of reciting the Koran, what do you THINK the will of the people will be on issues like this?

Of course, a lot of people expected they would embrace *Western Secular democracy* for some crazy reason, and act surprised when this kind of backwards tribal religious shit happens in such a backwards tribal religious part of the world...
I've mentioned this before but this was inevitable once we allowed them to enshrine religious law into their Constitution. They might have tried to do it anyways had we handed one to them pre-made ala Japan but as things are now we have no one to thank but our governments.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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As Chris says, this is democracy producing exactly the results it is supposed to: reflecting the attitudes of the majority. This is also democracy demonstrating its own most obvious weakness.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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B-but, democracy! This can't be right, we brought them democracy!
Democracy is useless when a religion like Islam is put on a higher pedestal. It'll be interesting to see how many Islamic countries either make the right choice and pick secularism first and foremost for society and human rights, or continue to allow religion to dictate law. There's no doubt in my mind that Islamic countries will be the last remaining places in the world to enter the global community without threats of war and religious conversion.
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by General Zod »

Justforfun000 wrote:
B-but, democracy! This can't be right, we brought them democracy!
Democracy is useless when a religion like Islam is put on a higher pedestal. It'll be interesting to see how many Islamic countries either make the right choice and pick secularism first and foremost for society and human rights, or continue to allow religion to dictate law. There's no doubt in my mind that Islamic countries will be the last remaining places in the world to enter the global community without threats of war and religious conversion.
Useless? LOL. Democracy doesn't have any kind of end moral goals. The whole fucking point is letting the people decide what they want, and if they want Islamic oppression, then you can't really do fuck all about it. The idea that democracy must also be secular or they're doing it wrong is a purely western conceit. :lol:
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

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Useless? LOL. Democracy doesn't have any kind of end moral goals. The whole fucking point is letting the people decide what they want, and if they want Islamic oppression, then you can't really do fuck all about it. The idea that democracy must also be secular or they're doing it wrong is a purely western conceit.
That was badly worded. I should't have been referencing democracy itself. I should have said government. I'm sure you'd agree that government must be secular in the main to be ultimately fair and based on sensibility?
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Re: Afghanistan legalizes rape

Post by Darth Wong »

Justforfun000 wrote:
Useless? LOL. Democracy doesn't have any kind of end moral goals. The whole fucking point is letting the people decide what they want, and if they want Islamic oppression, then you can't really do fuck all about it. The idea that democracy must also be secular or they're doing it wrong is a purely western conceit.
That was badly worded. I should't have been referencing democracy itself. I should have said government. I'm sure you'd agree that government must be secular in the main to be ultimately fair and based on sensibility?
Actually, your statement would be accurate if one assumes that democracy has an end-goal of producing a more just and humane society. In that case, it would be proven "useless" in this case by its utter failure to move toward this goal. That presumption has always been part of the justification for democracy, but of course, we see that it is largely arbitrary.

In reality, democracy's only real purpose is to force the government to obey the whims of the majority. In this respect, it is succeeding brilliantly in Afghanistan.
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