AR-15's brought to Obama townhall.

[SirNitram]

Link

PHOENIX — About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

Gun-rights advocates say they're exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.

Phoenix police Detective J. Oliver, who monitored the man at the downtown protest, said police also wanted to make sure no one decided to harm him.

"Just by his presence and people seeing the rifle and people knowing the president was in town, it sparked a lot of emotions," Oliver said. "We were keeping peace on both ends."

Last week, during Obama's health care town hall in Portsmouth, N.H., a man carrying a sign reading "It is time to water the tree of liberty" stood outside with a pistol strapped to his leg.

"It's a political statement," he told The Boston Globe. "If you don't use your rights, then you lose your rights."

Police asked the man to move away from school property, but he was not arrested.

Fred Solop, a Northern Arizona University political scientist, said the incidents in New Hampshire and Arizona could signal the beginning of a disturbing trend.

"When you start to bring guns to political rallies, it does layer on another level of concern and significance," Solop said. "It actually becomes quite scary for many people. It creates a chilling effect in the ability of our society to carry on honest communication."

He said he's never heard of someone bringing an assault weapon near a presidential event. "The larger the gun, the more menacing the situation," he said.

Phoenix was Obama's last stop on a four-day tour of western states, including Montana and Colorado.

Authorities in Montana said they received no reports of anyone carrying firearms during Obama's health care town hall near Bozeman on Friday. About 1,000 people both for and against Obama converged at a protest area near the Gallatin Field Airport hangar where the event took place. One person accused of disorderly conduct was detained and released, according to the Gallatin Airport Authority.

Heather Benjamin of Denver's Mesa County sheriff's department, the lead agency during Obama's visit there, said no one was arrested.

Arizona is an "open-carry" state, which means anyone legally allowed to have a firearm can carry it in public as long as it's visible. Only someone carrying a concealed weapon is required to have a permit.

Paul Helmke, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said people should not be allowed to bring guns to events where Obama is.

"To me, this is craziness," he said. "When you bring a loaded gun, particularly a loaded assault rifle, to any political event, but particularly to one where the president is appearing, you're just making the situation dangerous for everyone."

He said people who bring guns to presidential events are distracting the Secret Service and law enforcement from protecting the president. "The more guns we see at more events like this, there's more potential for something tragic happening," he said.

Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan said armed demonstrators in open-carry states such as Arizona and New Hampshire have little impact on security plans for the president.

"In both cases, the subject was not entering our site or otherwise attempting to," Donovan said. "They were in a designated public viewing area. The main thing to know is that they would not have been allowed inside with a weapon."

Representatives of the National Rifle Association did not return calls for comment.

Skipping over the now obligatory media conflating rifles with assault weapons, we have more and more open-carry bullshit. Not just with pistols, but AR-15's. Intimidation and ready for the revolution, these nutbars are.

[Kaiser Caesar]

Isn't there laws of some sort against carrying guns within a certain distance of the President and other important figures?

[aerius]

I wonder when they'll start breaking out the bazookas...

[Darth Wong]

They say the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk.

Those weapons are being brought to these events for one reason, and one reason alone: to intimidate their fellow citizens. This is no sort of patriotism.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Isn't there laws of some sort against carrying guns within a certain distance of the President and other important figures?

Did you miss the part of the article where the local police stated that none of the armed demonstrators violated any laws?

But anyway. Stupid, stupid, stupid. From the way these armed wingnuts are acting, you'd almost think they were trying to get some piece of actually-effective federal gun-control legislation passed. Just so they'd have real reason to bitch and moan about how the EVIL LIE-BERALS are taking away their guns. Some people, like these wingnuts and their implied threats of force, make me genuinely ashamed and embarrassed to be a Second Amendment advocate.

[Kaiser Caesar]

Isn't there laws of some sort against carrying guns within a certain distance of the President and other important figures?

Did you miss the part of the article where the local police stated that none of the armed demonstrators violated any laws?

But anyway. Stupid, stupid, stupid. From the way these armed wingnuts are acting, you'd almost think they were trying to get some piece of actually-effective federal gun-control legislation passed. Just so they'd have real reason to bitch and moan about how the EVIL LIE-BERALS are taking away their guns. Some people, like these wingnuts and their implied threats of force, make me genuinely ashamed and embarrassed to be a Second Amendment advocate.

First part: I must have missed that, my apologies.

Second part: Well, it would certainly play into the massive persecution complexes these groups have.

[Tanasinn]

Darth Wong took the words out of my mouth. This isn't about freedom or rights, this about scare tactics. It's literally sword rattling.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Is it wrong that a part of me wants someone to 'try'' and shoot Obama? Because I would LOVE to read about these "brave patriots" after someone shows up with a bunch of guns...and actually starts SHOOTING people. Of course I guess It wouldn't matter much, the right would dismiss it as some "lone bad apple" and somewhere people would hatch conspiracy theories that it was secretly set up by Liberals.

I guess That is what really gets me about all this, There is basically NOTHING that could happen that would ever make these people sit back, and go "Whoa, what are we doing? Isn't this going too far?"

[Kaiser Caesar]

Don't you think you're a little too pessimistic there, Crossroads Inc.? I mean, I can understand how you think that the right would react that way in a hypothetical scenario where someone tries to shoot/shoots Obama, but (at least I hope) the moderates won't look at it that way; they will see it as the natual conclusion of a series of increasingly hostile behavior by the right, and those moderates remaining in the Republican Party would drop their support for it so fast you could hear it collapse.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Timothy McVea...

The infamous bomber of a Federal building had boatloads of far right and Fundi Christian papers, he ranted about being on a mission from god, about trying ot bring down the evil government for the good of the people. He was everything that people worried about on the far right. And when he was captured, all people for weeks could say was "That insane lone nutter, good thing he isn't like us good God fearing Christians" or "I;m sure he wouldn't have been so bad if he found God"

I can't remember anyone on the right form the time period saying anything like "Maybe we are sending the wrong message?"

[Civil War Man]

Don't you think you're a little too pessimistic there, Crossroads Inc.? I mean, I can understand how you think that the right would react that way in a hypothetical scenario where someone tries to shoot/shoots Obama, but (at least I hope) the moderates won't look at it that way; they will see it as the natual conclusion of a series of increasingly hostile behavior by the right, and those moderates remaining in the Republican Party would drop their support for it so fast you could hear it collapse.

Unfortunately, it's not to hard to predict the Right's reaction to an attempted assassination. Just look at George Tiller. The talking heads (esp. O'Reilly) spent years comparing Tiller to Hitler, calling him a mass murderer, claiming that if anyone who was opposed to "stopping" Tiller's practice had blood on their hands, claiming that conventional morality no longer applies as long as Tiller continues his practice. Then when someone takes their arguements to their next logical step, then immediately start backpedaling, say "I never said anyone should kill him," and start attacking anyone who points out that their violent rhetoric almost certainly drove the shooter to the breaking point.

Now look at Obama's case. The Right is comparing Obama to Hitler, claiming that he's going to take away people's guns, claiming that he's going to murder everyone's grandmothers, claiming that he's going to turn the country into a brutal dictatorship, claiming that he was not legitimately elected, claiming that he's not a real American. As soon as one of these nutjobs goes the extra step and starts using the guns they bring to these meetings, those same pundits are going to immediately play the "But we never actually said we were advocating assassination attempts!" card.

[Kaiser Caesar]

Maybe I'm just too optimistic.

But I must note I am not talking about the right, which will surely accept anything the Republican machine will say, but those conservrative leaning moderates who will surely be appalled by any attempt on the President, and any attempt on his life will surely have a bigger impact on their standing then an abortion doctor.

[Simon_Jester]

A year ago, I thought the Secret Service had gotten overzealous. Looking at the kind of stuff that's passing for "protests" around here, I'm starting to change my mind.

[Aaron]

Has there actually been any effort by his administration to legislate against guns? Or are these folks just more retarded then usual?

[rhoenix]

Has there actually been any effort by his administration to legislate against guns? Or are these folks just more retarded then usual?

None whatsoever. Most of what I hear and see is "Well he's obviously trying to turn the country socialist, so of course he'll want to ban guns and disarm us first!"

[Darth Wong]

It's sad to watch how the conservatives argued Dr. Gates should be arrested for getting uppity with a police officer as it was "disturbing the peace", while simultaneously not seeing any disturbance of the peace when people brandish rifles to intimidate citizens at a political gathering. I don't know about you guys, but I think the public is more disturbed by an angry guy with a rifle than it is by a verbal insult.

[Darth Wong]

Has there actually been any effort by his administration to legislate against guns? Or are these folks just more retarded then usual?

None whatsoever. Most of what I hear and see is "Well he's obviously trying to turn the country socialist, so of course he'll want to ban guns and disarm us first!"

Let's be realistic; they would have behaved like this if any Democrat had gotten into power. The American people became far more radicalized during the Bush Administration, for various reasons.

[Aaron]

I don't get the thought process that leads to guys bringing sidearms and rifles to any kind of public political event, that is the kind of stuff that leads to getting your firearms taken away. Maybe it's just me but firearms are something to go have fun with at the range, not some kind of bizarre statement on freedom.

Can you imagine what would happen here if you showed up at a Q&A with the PM packing a shotgun?

None whatsoever. Most of what I hear and see is "Well he's obviously trying to turn the country socialist, so of course he'll want to ban guns and disarm us first!"

That's what I figured.

Let's be realistic; they would have behaved like this if any Democrat had gotten into power. The American people became far more radicalized during the Bush Administration, for various reasons.

True but I think this is a little far even for the far right. I expect to see this on the news with a "Live from the Belgian Congo" tag, not a first world nation.

[Darth Wong]

True but I think this is a little far even for the far right. I expect to see this on the news with a "Live from the Belgian Congo" tag, not a first world nation.

American politics are a little backward for a first-world nation.

In any case, these people don't seem to realize that a line has been crossed when you use guns not to hunt, or shoot targets, or even defend yourself, but for political purposes. Guns brandished in the name of a political cause are nothing more than outright political intimidation, which threatens democracy in its most basic form.

[The Original Nex]

Has there actually been any effort by his administration to legislate against guns? Or are these folks just more retarded then usual?

None whatsoever. Most of what I hear and see is "Well he's obviously trying to turn the country socialist, so of course he'll want to ban guns and disarm us first!"

Let's be realistic; they would have behaved like this if any Democrat had gotten into power. The American people became far more radicalized during the Bush Administration, for various reasons.

These folks were around for Clinton too. What's changed is the media acceptance of right-wing extremism as having a legitimate place at the table of political discussion. Maybe that's helped to cause more wide-scale radicalization in certain regions as you suggest, but vocal, violent, right wing crazies causing trouble to the US political process has been a constant fixture.

[Mr. Coffee]

It's sad to watch how the conservatives argued Dr. Gates should be arrested for getting uppity with a police officer as it was "disturbing the peace", while simultaneously not seeing any disturbance of the peace when people brandish rifles to intimidate citizens at a political gathering. I don't know about you guys, but I think the public is more disturbed by an angry guy with a rifle than it is by a verbal insult.

To be fair, he wasn't brandishing anything. If he had then the police would have had cause to arrest him.

[Kaiser Caesar]

None whatsoever. Most of what I hear and see is "Well he's obviously trying to turn the country socialist, so of course he'll want to ban guns and disarm us first!"

Let's be realistic; they would have behaved like this if any Democrat had gotten into power. The American people became far more radicalized during the Bush Administration, for various reasons.

These folks were around for Clinton too. What's changed is the media acceptance of right-wing extremism as having a legitimate place at the table of political discussion. Maybe that's helped to cause more wide-scale radicalization in certain regions as you suggest, but vocal, violent, right wing crazies causing trouble to the US political process has been a constant fixture.

It's been a constant fixture longer then people think. Adlai Stevenson was at one point attacked by an anti-United Nations protestor who hit him on the head with her sign. He also got spat on by another man if I recall.

Crazy right wingers have been around longer then Obama, Bush, or clinton.

[mingo]

Don't forget that this goes along with the "Birther" bullshit too. These people are just livid that a black man DARE be President.

[Loner]

Video story with interview of the rifle owner.

[Korvan]

I just have to contrast this with what went on during the Bush years where just wearing a t shirt with a "liberal" slogan would get you herded into a Free Speech zone well away from the event.