Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_ca ... l_analysis
Analysis: Liberals tired of health care compromise

By CHARLES BABINGTON and RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writers Charles Babington And Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 10 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Frustrated liberals have a question for President Barack Obama and Democratic lawmakers: Isn't it time the other guys gave a little ground on health care? What's the point of a bipartisan bill, they ask, if we're making all the concessions?

A case in point:

Sen. Charles Grassley, a key Republican negotiator on health care, was on a winning streak as Congress recessed for August, having wrung important concessions from Democrats, including an agreement not to tax employer-provided health insurance and a limit to demands on drug companies.

How did Grassley reciprocate? With an attack that struck Democrats as stunning and baseless. Grassley told an Iowa crowd he would not support a plan that "determines when you're going to pull the plug on Grandma." The remark echoed conservative activists who wrongly claim a House health care bill would require Medicare recipients to discuss their end-of-life plans with doctors.

For liberals supporting far-reaching changes to the nation's health care system, it was another sign that months of negotiations have been a one-way street. It's time to move on without Republicans, they say.

On Tuesday, liberals were fuming over Obama's recent remarks suggesting he might also yield on the federally run insurance option he's been promoting. Many saw it as a huge concession that could leave them with nothing more than watered-down insurance cooperatives.

But the Senate's second-ranking Republican, Jon Kyl of Arizona, dismissed even such co-ops as a "Trojan horse" leading to government control of health care.

Many liberals are fed up.

"It is clear that Republicans have decided 'no health care' is a victory for them," Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, said in an interview. "There is a point at which bipartisanship reaches a limit, and I would say it's reaching that limit."

The growing liberal unhappiness sets a difficult stage for Obama this fall. Political pragmatists want him to keep seeking a middle ground that will attract at least a few Republican lawmakers as well as moderate Democrats who could prove crucial to passage in the House and Senate. Even modest achievements, such as preventing insurers from refusing to cover pre-existing medical conditions, would allow Obama to claim a victory and perhaps try for more later, they say.

Liberal activists say there's no point in the Democrats winning the House, Senate and White House unless they use their clout to enact the major measures that Obama campaigned for — with or without some Republican support.

For now, Obama seems on the defensive. He spent valuable time this month knocking down claims that Democratic plans could lead to euthanasia of the elderly. And his chief spokesmen spent much of Monday and Tuesday insisting that Obama still supports a government-run health insurance option despite mixed signals from the administration.

On Saturday, Obama told a Colorado crowd, "The public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform. This is just one sliver of it."

While liberals are discouraged, the endgame remains unclear. Some still hope that Obama and congressional Democratic leaders will use all their parliamentary powers — which could prove especially divisive in the Senate — to pass a far-reaching bill that would include a public option for health insurance and more palatable consumer costs for prescription drugs and other needs.

The pivotal decisions will be made this fall, with administration officials saying the debate cannot lapse into the midterm election year of 2010.

What seems clear is that the room for compromise between Republicans and Democrats is shriveling to almost nothing. Some Democrats found Kyl's remarks particularly galling. Even if Democrats manage to produce a health care bill that won't increase the federal deficit over 10 years, Kyl said, "that doesn't mean Republicans would support it."

And Grassley has said he's uninterested in a compromise that draws only three or so Senate Republicans' votes.

The continued outreach to Republicans, meanwhile, is testing Democrats' unity. This week, more than 50 House Democrats issued a letter saying: "Any bill that does not provide, at a minimum, for a public option with reimbursement rates based on Medicare rates — not negotiated rates — is unacceptable."

Some of them told House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., in a conference call Tuesday that discussions with Republicans are pointless.

White House spokeswoman Linda Douglass played down the intraparty fuss, noting that it's far from clear how the final legislation will turn out. She said negotiations involving Obama have led drug manufacturers to agree to reduce costs for the nation's health care system by $80 billion over 10 years, while hospitals have agreed to an additional $155 billion.

Those concessions will carry weight with lawmakers as they "look at enacting reform that will lower costs and increase stability and security," Douglass said in an interview.

But such concessions cut several ways. Pharmaceutical industry leaders say the $80 billion agreement should end efforts to allow the government to negotiate lower prices for prescription drugs used in Medicare and other programs.

Liberals say such price reductions are precisely the type of change Obama called for in his presidential campaign. And now, they say, is the time to turn those promises into reality.

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — Charles Babington and Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar cover the White House and health policy for The Associated Press.

(This version CORRECTS Corrects by deleting 9th graf pvs, '"Republicans are...,"' which has erroneous attribution for quote; RAISES Stern quote for transition. Moving on general news and financial services.)
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Fuck this false bipartisanship with the Republicans! What we now need is some good old fashioned confrontation. Now, if the Democrats would only grow a damn spine already... :x
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

Post by Darth Wong »

This whole process is irretrievably fucked. The Democrats have made a health-care reform bill that is largely worthless except to further increase health insurance industry revenue, thanks to all of these ridiculous Republican contributions.

The Republicans already get enough chances to fuck the poor when they're in power; why let them keep doing it when they're out of power?
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Darth Wong wrote:This whole process is irretrievably fucked. The Democrats have made a health-care reform bill that is largely worthless except to further increase health insurance industry revenue, thanks to all of these ridiculous Republican contributions.

The Republicans already get enough chances to fuck the poor when they're in power; why let them keep doing it when they're out of power?
This is what happens when one party spends all its time trying to please the Mindless Middle, while the other side cheerfully panders to the sort of slack-jaw who thinks it's a good idea to openly brandish firearms at political forums. The Democrats should've gone full-bore on the health-care issue, so that one might still be able to call the resulting compromise bill "reform" while keeping a straight face. Instead, they meekly started in the "compromise" position and hoped the Republicans might be charitable enough to at least, maybe, use a little lube during the ensuing sodomization . . . as asking for a reach-around would obviously violate the spirit of "bipartisanship."
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Political pragmatists want him to keep seeking a middle ground that will attract at least a few Republican lawmakers
Political pragmatists? More like Village Whores. You never hear about 'polticial pragmatists' seeking a 'middle ground' with Democrats when the Republicans are in power. Because the Republicans rightly don't give a flying fuck. They won the damn election, why the hell should they bother with the losers?

I am encouraged, however, at the House Democrats saying that anything that doesn't include a public option at Medicare rates is unacceptable.

I am also encouraged that this sort of stuff is being reported. The more the meme of "why the fuck are we bothering with the Republicans" is reported, the stronger it will get, and the harder it will be to ignore- it should be crystal clear that the Republicans have no interest in any health gear bill getting passed whatsoever. If there is no public option, the progressive wing will fucking spit the dummy.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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I have to imagine it's those fucking "Blue Dog Democrats" who are the biggest problem. They would probably shit a collective brick if Obama did not continue kissing Republican ass, and they could easily scuttle the Democrat ship. How I loathe those Blue Dog assholes.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Does that Max Baucus asshole count as a Blue Dog?
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Darth Wong wrote:I have to imagine it's those fucking "Blue Dog Democrats" who are the biggest problem. They would probably shit a collective brick if Obama did not continue kissing Republican ass, and they could easily scuttle the Democrat ship. How I loathe those Blue Dog assholes.
They were left over when the two parties sort of flipped positions on the specturm during the early 20th century. The Republicans got rid of their liberal wing a while back, but the Democrats, true to their spineless selves, never tried to push them out or at least to the sidelines.

So now we have one right-wing party and one kinda moderate, kinda-right-wing. Such is American politics. :roll:
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Thanks for my new Facebook status, Vympel.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Anguirus wrote:Thanks for my new Facebook status, Vympel.
Heh, Taibbi's great. Anyway, I'm glad that the moment the Obama LimpWristministration put out it's bullshit 'public option not essential' feelers, there was a huge progressive/ liberal backlash that hopefully is having their head completely spinning in disbelief. The only hope for meaningful reform is making the White House (and Senate - the House is already crystal clear that a bill with no public option Simply Will Not Pass, Period) more scared of what their liberal base will do (i.e. mass dissafection and depressed turnout in 2010, except in primary races targeting Blue Dog cunts) than what the insurance companies will do. Just that simple.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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I'm beginning to wonder if it's deliberate. It may sound like conspiracy lunacy, but what if the Democratic leadership only campaigned on healthcare reforming to get votes while never intending to actually follow through? Could it be they planned this all along, publicly making a show of offering reform only to lose out to the relentless right-wing onslaught, so they could say that they fought the good fight, while privately guaranteeing that their corporate patrons' profits would always be protected? It sounds nuts, but I have a hard time believing that the Democrats are really so stupid and incompetent that they couldn't get any real reform through. If Obama really is so useless as to foul this endeavor up despite majority public support, how could he have gotten so far politically to begin with?
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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but I have a hard time believing that the Democrats are really so stupid and incompetent that they couldn't get any real reform through.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
That sort of reminds me of a scene from the very funny 1970 satire movie The President's Analyst. After the White House psychiatrist, Dr. Sidney Schaffer (James Coburn), on the run from foreign spies he perceives everywhere (because they are) and the Secret Service people out to get him (because they are), has hooked up with a tourist family and went back to Connecticut with them (to get out of Washington), he asks the father at one point why he seems to have so many guns in the house, him being a liberal. "The extreme right wing," the man says, smiling. "When they disarm, us liberals will disarm".
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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The problem is that the Democrats just don't have strong legislative leader anymore. A healthy Ted Kennedy might be able to mix it up in this fight, but even he might end up not being vicious enough. Its a measure of how weak the Democratic Party has gotten (in terms of strong leaders), that you could say they haven't had a real senator who'd get down and dirty and kick some asses since the days of Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
I'm just going to assume this isn't entirely serious of you, but right-wingers are perfectly capable of spinning liberal shows of strength in a post-hoc fashion to themselves; they'll simply lean on Stalin comparisons more strongly.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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TithonusSyndrome wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
I'm just going to assume this isn't entirely serious of you, but right-wingers are perfectly capable of spinning liberal shows of strength in a post-hoc fashion to themselves; they'll simply lean on Stalin comparisons more strongly.
They'd go right for the "ZOMG, see, see! The Democrats have Nazi brown-shirts coming to take away your freedoms and kill Granny and scream "Heil Hitler Secret-Muslim Obama!" The irony, of course, would be entirely lost on them.

Of course, what this does is when one of those wingnuts decides to go from "implied threat of violence" to "active violence," the other side will be able to defend themselves, and we can finally relive the days of the Old West, where justice and law were decided from the business-end of a Winchester.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Didn't the democrats used to attribute the Republicans to a somewhat dictatorial regime under Bush? Couldn't they just label the republicans as Nazis before they think of carrying guns to intimidate the Republicans.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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ray245 wrote:Didn't the democrats used to attribute the Republicans to a somewhat dictatorial regime under Bush? Couldn't they just label the republicans as Nazis before they think of carrying guns to intimidate the Republicans.
No.

No democratic mainline politician ascribed the Bush administration as 'fascists' or 'Nazis'. People did that freely, but not the elected leaders.

However, talk of 'death panels' and 'socialism' are thrown around like candy by GOP members of Congress, and nutjobs like Palin, supported by their 'spiritual leader', Rush Limbaugh. Hell, they even perceive the DHS investigation of fringe right groups such as seperatist and neo-nazi movements as 'persecution'. And of course, their support then decides to show off their firearms at public places, with shitfaced grins about gun rights to thinly veil their attempt at armed intimidation.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Of course, what this does is when one of those wingnuts decides to go from "implied threat of violence" to "active violence," the other side will be able to defend themselves, and we can finally relive the days of the Old West, where justice and law were decided from the business-end of a Winchester.
If it gets that far, it was going to get there anyway. The only question is whether the decision is made by a shootout between the two sides, or by one side of the dispute operating without fear of armed contradiction.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Of course, the bill had its own problems before the repubs added more crap onto it - like not enough malpractice reform. If more people are paid at medicare rates but still are sued assuming a high salary, then the malpractice insurance is going to take a larger part of, say, a doctor's salary. Tort reform is necessary to get the real benefits of a govt option, but trial lawyers are a pretty big democratic constituency.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
Their's already been physical brawling at these things. If both sides start bringing guns, its likely only a matter of time before they're blazing away at each other.

If you want blood in the streets, you might as well go ahead and say it, because that's what the above might very well ammount to. It might get to that point eventually anyway, its true, but personally, I'm all for the Democrats taking the high road and not bringing fucking guns to ostensibly peaceful political rallies.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Johonebesus wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if it's deliberate. It may sound like conspiracy lunacy, but what if the Democratic leadership only campaigned on healthcare reforming to get votes while never intending to actually follow through? Could it be they planned this all along, publicly making a show of offering reform only to lose out to the relentless right-wing onslaught, so they could say that they fought the good fight, while privately guaranteeing that their corporate patrons' profits would always be protected? It sounds nuts, but I have a hard time believing that the Democrats are really so stupid and incompetent that they couldn't get any real reform through. If Obama really is so useless as to foul this endeavor up despite majority public support, how could he have gotten so far politically to begin with?
Doubtful. Including the notion that difficulty here is a sign that Obama is useless. Rather, I take it as a sign that he's struggling within a very fucked up system. How many presidents have failed to bring Universal Health Care, again?

I think its more a mix of "Blue Dog" Democrats ensuring that 60 Democratic seats out of a hundred is not, in fact, a garuntee of victory, along with shear fear resulting from the town hall mobs. I know that if I were a Congressman in some of these districts right now, I would genuinely fear for my physical safety.

Of course, I also expect elected leaders to have a bit more spine than your average guy on the street.

I doubt Obama planned for it to fail. That would be lunacy. He was elected partly on a promise to bring health care reform, and he must know that his popularity and credibility will take a huge knock if this fails. Not, perhaps, an irreversable one, but it would be bad. I don't see him as the type of man to get ellected with the intended goal of achieving absolutely nothing.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I honestly think the only real way to respond to the conservative wingnuts bringing assault rifles to town hall meetings is to also bring assault rifles to town hall meetings. Really, nothing is respected by people of that sort, except for strength, so provide strength. Also they think liberals are all gun-fearing pussies so the simple surprise of it would probably deter them from bringing arms again.
Don't forget about Horst Wessel, Marina. It's well known that reactionary political thought is often bound up with a mythology of victimhood, and the Nazis famously promoted their street thugs as martyrs to be avenged and emulated. When they beat up reds it was a proud, masculine defense of the fatherland, and when the reds fought back, it was evidence that they were invading. The wingnuts won't respect a show of force, on the contrary, they're primed to respect nothing at all. If progressives take the high road, it proves that they're weak; if progressive respond in kind, it proves that they're evil and must be stopped. The wingnuts are not prepared to recognize any theory of reality except for one in which they're right and their enemies are wrong.

This understood, we have to concentrate on the people who can be influenced are moderates and centrists. Every time they see footage of armed wingnuts calling Obama a Nazi, it does a little more damage to the wingnut cause. People who are both clearly heavily armed and clearly completely insane parading around just a couple blocks from the a speech by the president is not good advertising. Also recognize that the threat displays from the right are not a product of strength but rather their yellow streak showing. Realistically there's no self-defense threat at these meetings; the attendance of public officials, large numbers of citizens, and the consequent heavy police presence means that they're about as likely to need those guns as they would during a stroll around the Capital Mall at midday. They're carrying the guns as a threat display and warning, and a person in a position of strength and confidence doesn't need to make threat displays.
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Re: Liberals growing tired of right-wing shit

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Pablo Sanchez wrote: This understood, we have to concentrate on the people who can be influenced are moderates and centrists. Every time they see footage of armed wingnuts calling Obama a Nazi, it does a little more damage to the wingnut cause. People who are both clearly heavily armed and clearly completely insane parading around just a couple blocks from the a speech by the president is not good advertising. Also recognize that the threat displays from the right are not a product of strength but rather their yellow streak showing. Realistically there's no self-defense threat at these meetings; the attendance of public officials, large numbers of citizens, and the consequent heavy police presence means that they're about as likely to need those guns as they would during a stroll around the Capital Mall at midday. They're carrying the guns as a threat display and warning, and a person in a position of strength and confidence doesn't need to make threat displays.
I would like to think so, but I fear I can't share your optimism. The mere fact that they carry the guns as a threat display and warning, as you observed, only shows that they believe themselves to be under threat; it does not mean that they actually are.

These threat displays are not substantially different from the right's previous antics. It's really just a step up as opposed to a paradigm shift. Therefore there's a disturbing possibility that this impulse is a lot more calculated than it would otherwise seem, in which case this isn't the Right reeling and lashing out, but the Right once again trying to see what they can get away with. After all, the tactic's worked before.
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