What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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FSTargetDrone
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What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Some local station's coverage:
Updated: 10/23/2009 12:02 AM KSTP.com

By: Michelle Knoll

Distracted Pilots Overfly the Twin Cities

FAA sources say Northwest Airlines flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis lost radio communication for over an hour Wednesday night.

The Airbus A-320, carry 147 passengers and crew, lost contact with controllers just before 7 p.m.

The National Transportation Safety Board says an hour later the plane flew over Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, and continued for 150 miles into Wisconsin.

The FAA notified the military, which put Air National Guard fighter jets on alert at two locations. As many as four planes could have been scrambled, but none ever took to the air.

"After FAA re-established communications, we pulled off," said Michael Kucharek, a North American Aerospace Defense Command spokesman.

Officials say controllers were able to reestablish contact with the plane at 8:14 p.m.

NTSB officials say the pilots told controllers they had gotten distracted and requested to return to Minneapolis-St. Paul International.

The plane landed safely after 9 p.m., about an hour and fifteen minutes later than it was scheduled to land.

Northwest Airlines originally told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS the delay was due to weather, but during a post-flight interview the NTSB says the pilots told federal authorities they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and were not aware of the situation.

A source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to speak publicly said the pilots didn't become aware of their situation until a flight attendant contacted them through an intercom from the cabin to the cockpit,

The National Transportation Safety Board will be conducting it's own interviews.

They say the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder have been secured and are being sent to its lab in Washington, D.C.

The NTSB says right now it is looking into all possibilities, including pilot fatigue.

Thursday afternoon, Delta Airlines released a written statement saying, "The safety of our passengers and crew is our top priority. We are cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations."

Passengers 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS talked with immediately after the plane landed said they were unaware of any problems onboard. No one was hurt.
Seems like an awful long time to be "distracted," intense arguments or otherwise!

Hm, this seems like a better story, or at least a bit more interesting one (and coincidentally, it uses a similar headline as my post's subject!):
What Happened To Flight 188?

Posted by Jane Akre

Friday, October 23, 2009 5:12 PM EST

The Missing 78 Minutes

We may never know what happened to Northwest Flight 188 because its outdated cockpit-voice recorder only has 30-minutes of memory.

What we do know is that the flight overshot its destination by 150 miles during which time air traffic controllers frantically tried to reach the crew.

The Airbus A320 departed from San Diego Wednesday evening on its way to Minneapolis.

Along the way was a 78-minute gap of silence during which time air-traffic controllers say they made repeated attempts to contact the crew.

They got no answer for 1 hour and 18 minutes.

Controllers became so concerned about the fate of the 140 people onboard Flight 188 that they asked pilots of aircraft in the area to see if they could get a response from the Northwest crew.

Authorities checked to see if there were any air marshals onboard.

Fearing the worst, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) even considered engaging fighter jets to intercept the twin-jet Airbus A320.

When the crew did resume communication with controllers the plane had to circle back, flying for about 50 minutes, until they landed safely in Minneapolis. There were no injuries reported.

So what happened?

The cockpit recorder may not tell the answer.

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that it’s likely only the tail end of the communication, after contact with air traffic controllers was re-established, would be recorded. That’s because the outdated cockpit recorder erases old conversations by recording over them in a 30-minute loop.

The leading theory by safety experts and investigators is that both pilots had the plane in autopilot cruising at 37,000 feet and fell asleep.

But both pilots have repeatedly insisted they were engaged in a heated discussion about company matters and just lost track of their location.

What’s perplexing is that conversations with the ground usually increases as a plane approaches its destination.

There are reportedly no bells or whistles to alert pilots they have passed their last flight market. But there would have been a message on the screen between the pilots that says “flight plan discontinuity.”

Northwest Airlines, now a unit of Delta, has suspended the pilots from flying and is investigating. A cooperative investigation is underway by the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to find out what happened.

Pilot fatigue has been an issue in the news recently as airlines try to tighten their budgets, and pilots report they have quicker turn-arounds and are asked to work longer hours for less pay.

ABC News is reporting that many pilots have expressed anger over the routes they fly and seniority since the merging of Delta and Northwest.

On Monday, a crew that had flown a Delta Boeing 767 from Brazil landed on a taxiway in Atlanta’s Hartsfield International rather than a parallel runway. The crew had been flying all night.

The NTSB is investigating the role pilot fatigue may have played in that flight.

Airline Industry Resists Rest Time

Last year, the FAA imposed new rules that would require longer rest time and layovers for those commanding a nonstop flight of 16 hours. But that would require the airlines to hire more pilots.

Seven U.S. airlines are fighting new rules, suing the FAA and claiming that they were not consulted on the new rest rules imposed last October.

Pilots responding to one IB News story on pilot fatigue last month suggest adequate and comfortable rest facilities onboard the aircraft might help, as might 12 to 36-hour layovers so the body clock would not be disrupted.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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Personally, I think it's most likely they fell asleep.

It's possible they were arguing and lost track of what they were doing, but that would be a HELL of an argument.

Pilots falling asleep happen a lot more often than the general public wants to know about. On really long flights, international ones, it really would make more sense for part of the crew to nap while the rest fly, then the nappers wake up and take over for landing so you have people with the least fatigue doing the trickiest part of the flight, but noooooooo......! My understanding is that the military has provisions for pilots to sleep on really long missions, why shouldn't civilians?

Anyhow - the 30 minute flight recorder is not "outdated", it's the industry standard. Yes, they have new ones with longer recording times, and they're swapping the old out for the new as the old ones come up for regular replacement, but it's a stretch to say the older ones are "outdated". The pilots know what sort of equipment is on the airplane, whatever happened they knew they just had to fly an additional 30 minutes to erase the evidence on the recorders. I suspect they did just that deliberately.

Anyhow - there's a very good possibility their flying days are over. Even at my level of aviation you can get your flying privileges yanked for that sort of stunt, and airliner pilots are held to even higher standards. Doesn't matter why you lose situational awareness to that extent, whether napping, arguing, or having sex in the cockpit, you're just not supposed to let that happen. Period.

I am happy, though, that no one got hurt. Merely inconvenienced.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by FSTargetDrone »

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I have to admit that my first thought, assuming it really wasn't an hour-long argument or even their falling asleep, was that the pilots may have had an issue with their oxygen levels in the cockpit which affected them adversely for a time, but that doesn't really make sense unless the cockpit is tightly sealed from the cabin and/or they have a separate supply. That seems a lot less likely than fatigue, of course.

Can you imagine being on that flight as a passenger and becoming aware that you are headed in the wrong direction and have been for more than an hour? Granted, it's not the same as noticing that the car you're in is no longer headed to your intended destination ("We're goin' to Jersey?"), but if someone was paying attention and merely noticed the flight was due to land at a certain time and saw that things were running long by quite a bit, one might become... concerned.

I saw a brief snippet of one of the pilots on ABC World News as he was getting luggage out of his car, who responded to an unheard responded to something with, "We weren't asleep." He sure sounded sleepy!

Hm.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Edi »

From the article:
Airline Industry Resists Rest Time

Last year, the FAA imposed new rules that would require longer rest time and layovers for those commanding a nonstop flight of 16 hours. But that would require the airlines to hire more pilots.

Seven U.S. airlines are fighting new rules, suing the FAA and claiming that they were not consulted on the new rest rules imposed last October.
Why am I not surprised? This is another case where the regulator just simply needs to put its foot down and tell the airlines to sit down and shut the fuckup and slap them with every imaginable penalty if they don't. Safety comes first in things like that. I've gotten sick and tired of the news of American corporations fighting tooth and nail against every possible safety measure if it takes so much as a cent out of the bottom line.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Gramzamber »

Broomstick wrote:Pilots falling asleep happen a lot more often than the general public wants to know about. On really long flights, international ones, it really would make more sense for part of the crew to nap while the rest fly, then the nappers wake up and take over for landing so you have people with the least fatigue doing the trickiest part of the flight, but noooooooo......! My understanding is that the military has provisions for pilots to sleep on really long missions, why shouldn't civilians?
I thought they did?
I was watching a documentary the other day about a China Airlines international flight that dropped out of the sky and almost crashed into the ocean (the crew recovered it successfully) that showed how it's captain and main crew were assigned sleep hours and their own bunks so they'd be rested for landing while the backup crew took care of the uneventful flight.

I take it it's not the same on American flights?
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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I didn't want to get into the complexities of differing regulations but yes, there are countries where the flight crews have bunks on board the airplane and pilots are required to nap, or at least rest, under certain conditions. For the US, though, airline pilots are not permitted to sleep. Seriously, would you drive nonstop for 16 hours? Yet US airline pilots are expected to do that, and woe to the crew that is delayed in the air! So the pilots are reduced to either sneaking a nap (and if caught by the wrong people they could be fired for it) or flying on with inadequate rest.

Totally ridiculous - foreign crews fly into and out of the US with bunks in the plane and crews fresh from a nap, but US pilots are forbidden these things.

The stupid thing? If you had two private pilots in their own airplane, as long as one was awake it would be OK for the other to catch a nap. But not airline pilots, oh no! It's a situation where at times maximum safety can only be obtained by breaking the regulations and risking one's career.

I'd say any flight that has two crews (and the 12-16 or even longer flights do, in fact, have more than one flight crew) should have bunks so crew members can nap in reasonable comfort when safe and appropriate.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by CaptHawkeye »

It turns out the major airlines like Delta/United are about as stingy and selfish as companies come? Their have long been stories about passenger mistreatment in the airlines, and these stories unfortunantly often bury the stories of EMPLOYEE mistreatment that goes on in the airlines. Remember when Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger went up before Congress and basically admitted how shitty a job airline pilot is these days?

The modern airline industry is so much like the Railroad Companies of the 1870s. Ruthless, greedy, whiny, and apathetic. It's not like they need to hide this though. The Airlines know billions of people are reliant on them for transport, and business.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

CaptHawkeye wrote: The modern airline industry is so much like the Railroad Companies of the 1870s. Ruthless, greedy, whiny, and apathetic. It's not like they need to hide this though. The Airlines know billions of people are reliant on them for transport, and business.
I suppose you meant "millions"?

As for the airline industry in general, I would not like to be an airline executive. Even the current oil price makes their business much less profitable than five years ago and if (perhaps I should write "when") the oil price rises significantly above $80 again, the airlines are going to suffer big time. Essentially their only option is to increase ticket prises, which in turn will make both business travelers and tourists to look for alternatives. For some there are no alternatives, so the airline industry will still exist, but there will be a lot of consolidation and bankruptcies.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Vympel »

It turns out the major airlines like Delta/United are about as stingy and selfish as companies come? Their have long been stories about passenger mistreatment in the airlines, and these stories unfortunantly often bury the stories of EMPLOYEE mistreatment that goes on in the airlines. Remember when Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger went up before Congress and basically admitted how shitty a job airline pilot is these days?

The modern airline industry is so much like the Railroad Companies of the 1870s. Ruthless, greedy, whiny, and apathetic. It's not like they need to hide this though. The Airlines know billions of people are reliant on them for transport, and business.
I have no complaints about foreign airlines - its the American ones that fucking suck. Passenger mistreatment is right - my experiences with United were universally awful.

When we rescheduled our departure from San Francisco because we wanted to stay for Halloween back in 2005, the telephone customer service guy was a rude fuck - my friend Cheryl made a mistake whilst talking to him and said "oh, that's wrong, sorry, I meant to say this" and you know what the guy says? "That's ok, you didn't mean that apology anyway".

What the fuck?

Or when I was boarding a flight and there was a stack of newspapers near the door. I thought they were for collection, so I went to pick one up. A stewardess stopped me. Did she say "sorry sir, those aren't for collection right now?"

No.

She said.

"NUH UH!!!" and waved her finger at me. Worst fucking service ever.

It's not getting better either - my friend just got back from America and had similar stories of the attitude of flight attendants. They're rude as hell and they just don't give a fuck.

It doesn't help that their planes are old pieces of shit, with outdated inflight entertainment (one!!!! movie screen for everyone to look at per area. Fucking dark ages! Singapore Airlines, V Australia, all have awesome systems right in the back of the chair) and awful food.

Looking at reviews of UA on the internet, its probably easily the worst international carrier in the world.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Vejut »

Associated Press, via yahoo.com
Wayward pilots say they were busy using laptops
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer Joan Lowy, Associated Press Writer 27 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Not sleeping, the pilots say. They were engrossed in a complicated new crew-scheduling program on their laptop computers as their plane flew past its Minneapolis landing by 150 miles — a cockpit violation of airline policy that could cost them their licenses.

They were so focused on the scheduling — quite a complicated matter for the pilots after Delta Air Lines acquired Northwest Airlines a year ago — that they were out of communication with air traffic controllers and their airline for more than an hour. They didn't realize their mistake until contacted by a flight attendant about five minutes before the flight's scheduled landing last Wednesday night, the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.

By then, Northwest Flight 188 with its 144 passengers and five crew members was over Wisconsin, at 37,000 feet.

The pilots — Richard Cole of Salem, Ore., the first officer, and Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Wash., the captain — denied they had fallen asleep as aviation experts have suggested, the safety board said in recounting investigators' interviews with the men over the weekend.

Instead, Cole and Cheney said they both had their laptops out while the first officer, who had more experience with scheduling, instructed the captain on monthly flight crew scheduling.

A number of aviation experts — and people wondering about their next airline flights — have been suggesting it was more plausible that the pilots had fallen asleep during the San Diego-to-Minneapolis flight than that they had become so focused on a conversation that they lost awareness of their surroundings for such a lengthy period of time.

Air traffic controllers in Denver and Minneapolis repeatedly tried without success to raise the pilots by radio. Other pilots in the vicinity tried reaching the plane on other radio frequencies. Their airline tried contacting them using a radio text message that chimes.

Authorities became so alarmed that National Guard jets were readied for takeoff at two locations and the White House Situation Room alerted senior officials, who monitored the airliner as the Airbus A320 flew across a broad swath of the mid-continent out of contact with anyone on the ground.

"It's inexcusable," said former NTSB Chairman Jim Hall. "I feel sorry for the individuals involved, but this was certainly not an innocuous event — this was a significant breach of aviation safety and aviation security."

Delta said in a statement that using laptops or engaging in activity unrelated to the pilots' command of the aircraft during flight is strictly against the airline's flight deck policies. The airline said violations of that policy will result in termination.

There are no federal rules that specifically ban pilots' use of laptops or other personal electronic devices as long as the plane is flying above 10,000 feet, said Diane Spitaliere, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman.

"I think it depends upon how it's being used," Spitaliere said.

The Air Transport Association, a trade group that represents major U.S. airlines, expects pilots to comply with federal regulations and airline policies, but hasn't taken a position on the use of electronic devices by pilots while in the cockpit, ATA spokeswoman Elizabeth Merida said.

Delta has suspended the two pilots pending an investigation into the incident. FAA is also investigating and has warned Cheney and Cole their pilot licenses could be suspended or revoked.

Pilots' schedules are tied to their seniority, which also determines the aircraft they fly. Those at the top of the list get first choice on vacations, the best routes and the bigger planes that they get paid more for flying. Following Delta Air Lines' acquisition of Northwest, an arbitration panel ruled that the pilot seniority lists at the two carriers should be integrated based on pilots' status and aircraft category.

Cheney and Cole are both experienced pilots, according to the NTSB. Cheney, 53, was hired by Northwest in 1985 and has about 20,000 hours of flying time, about half of which was in the A320. Cole, 54, had about 11,000 hours of flight time, including 5,000 hours in the A320.

Both pilots told the board they had never had an accident, incident or violation, the board said.

The pilots acknowledged that while they were engaged in working on their laptops they weren't paying attention to radio traffic, messages from their airline or their cockpit instruments, the board said. That's contrary to one of the fundamentals of commercial piloting, which is to keep attention focused on monitoring messages from controllers and watching flight displays in the cockpit.

"It is unsettling when you see experienced pilots who were not professional in flying this flight," said Kitty Higgins, a former NTSB board member. "This is clearly a wakeup call for everybody."

Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., called the incident "the ultimate case of distracted driving, only this time it was distracted flying."

___

AP Airlines Writer Harry R. Weber contributed to this report from Atlanta.

___

On the Net:

National Transportation Safety Board: http://www.ntsb.gov
Updated information, looks like it was a little more than a conversation. Probably the truth, given the story they're giving appears like it may cost them their jobs.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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Pretty much ANY reason they gave would cost them their jobs. Must admit, though, "busy using my laptop" is an unusual one....
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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America: Dead Tired
Since the Bush administration’s legacy left the country suffering the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, the number of unemployed has increased by 7.6 million to 15.1, and the official unemployment rate is just under 10%, For so many, just having a job – any crappy, horrible, badly-paid job – is better than no job at all. So few people are paying much attention to what is happening, and has been happening for quite some time, to those who are employed in what should be ‘good’ jobs; the increasing pressure on workers to work longer and harder, for less and less. Or else.

But sometimes the ‘or else’ isn’t just about losing your job. Let’s face it; there are some jobs where chronic fatigue and burnout are more hazardous than others. Flying for an airline for one. A few days ago, Northwest Flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis overflew the airport by more than 150 miles, out of radio contact with air traffic controllers for 80 minutes. Something sure as hell went very wrong 37,000 feet in the air with 147 unsuspecting passengers sitting in the back seats, and speculation is running rife about how two experienced and highly qualified pilots could possibly fly past their destination without either noticing. The chatter on just about every airline pilot forum is the same – suspicion falling on the most likely reason – the pilots simply… fell asleep. Luckily, no one died, except possibly two pilots’ careers.

Would be nice to think this was a one-off aberration. It’s not. A couple weeks ago, a Delta 767 with 195 passengers and crew landed in Atlanta on a taxiway instead of the runway, and investigators suspect fatigue as a factor; the crew had flown 10 hours and was landing at night. The third pilot, doing a checkride, had become ill during the flight, and was being cared for in the cabin as the other two pilots, distracted and tired, landed the jet on the wrong strip of asphalt. Not exactly the checkride they were hoping for.

Nor is it the first time a flight crew has fallen asleep at the controls. Both the pilot and co-pilot of a go! airline flight dozed off at 21,000 feet while flying to Hilo last year, with air traffic controllers trying to contact the plane for 25 minutes before the pilots woke up, realized they’d overshot the airport and were heading out to sea. Both pilots lost their jobs. Yet complaints of pilot fatigue is not new for go!’s parent company, Mesa Air in Phoenix. Dallas television station WFAA-TV reported as far back as 2006 that flight schedules were so tight pilots were exhausted, some even camping in their aircraft to catch a few hours of sleep.

Last year, after a Shuttle America regional jet slid off the end of a snowy runway in Cleveland, investigators cited the captain’s fatigue as a crucial factor. The National Transport Safety Board criticized the captain for not removing himself from duty, despite suffering from fatigue… but as we’ve read here before, Michael Moore was handed a letter sent to the F/O on his flight, the airline warning the pilot he’d taken three sick days in the past year, and had better not take another. Or else. It isn’t just financial need forcing pilots to fly past their physical limits, it’s their bosses.

It seems the industry is still struggling with the lessons of Colgan Air Flight 3407. 24-year-old co-pilot Rebecca Shaw had travelled all night as a passenger on FedEx planes from Seattle to Newark – she was so tired she complained of feeling ill, but with only earning $15,800 the year before, she couldn’t afford not to fly. Even while working as a pilot, she had moonlighted as a waitress in a Virgina coffee shop. The captain, Marvin Renslow, had napped on a sofa in the airport crew lounge before the flight. Both pilots were overtired, underpaid and unprepared for the weather conditions as the airline had considered the simulator training too expensive. Shaw, Renslow and 49 passengers died when the plane’s wings iced up and dropped them onto a house in Buffalo, New York.

Would be nice to think this might just be a problem for pilots. It’s not. In March, 2006, an air traffic controller in Chicago with only four hours sleep between shifts cleared two jets for take-off on the same runway. The pilots managed to spot each other in time. In 2004, an ATC in Los Angeles with only five hours of sleep between shifts did the same thing, with the plane on approach managing to pull up 12 seconds before it would have collided with one on the ground. In Denver, two weeks after 9/11, an ATC with less than two hours sleep between shifts cleared a Boeing 757 for take off… on a runway that had been closed for construction. Three months before, an ATC working his third shift in two days cleared two planes for the same runway, the pilot in the landing plane managing to slam on the brakes before colliding with a jet crossing the runway. No one died.

But it was only a matter of time. In 2006, a lone air traffic controller in Lexington, Kentucky with only a two-hour nap between shifts cleared Comair Flight 5191 for take-off. He wasn’t watching when it turned onto the wrong, fatally short, runway. In the dark, the pilot didn’t realize and crashed into trees, killing 49 people on board. ‘Controllers are absolutely more tired now than they have ever been, and it's because they are forced to work overtime,’ said Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. ‘This is an understaffed system, and the FAA is lying when they say it's not.’ Record numbers of ATCs are quitting, with the remainder making up staffing shortages. A GAO report cites ATC fatigue as a major reason for the sharp increase in near catastrophic mistakes. It would be nice to think this is just a problem for the airlines. It’s not. MTA bus drivers are moonlighting with second jobs, working over the allowed 10 hours a day, getting traffic tickets without their employers finding out. Four drivers were involved in incidents on days they worked over 10 hours. Three drivers who held second jobs had avoidable crashes. And in April this year, a bus crash in California’s Sierra Nevada killed one person and injured twenty-four, with investigators suspecting driver fatigue may have contributed to the fatal accident.

It would be nice to think maybe it’s just the transport industry in general with the problem. It’s not. Doctors, unions and other medical experts have been urging hospitals to cut down on the compulsory hours for residents working at least 80 hours a week at most training hospitals, many 30 hours straight without a break. Doctors in training who fall asleep during surgery or while examining patients make four times more errors that cause deaths than their better-rested colleagues. ‘The evidence demonstrates that academic medicine is failing both doctors and patients by routinely requiring exhausted doctors to work marathon shifts,’ says Charles Czeisler, Baldino Professor of Sleep Medicine. ‘The human brain simply does not perform reliably for 24 consecutive hours without sleep.’

It’s not just doctors. University of Pennsylvania researchers tracked 393 hospital nurses and found about 40 percent were working shifts on average in excess of 12 and a half hours, every nurse working at least 55 minutes longer than scheduled, and a third working overtime every single day over the four week study. Fatigue in nursing staff considerably raised the risk of dispensing the wrong medicine or the wrong dosage.

But the crushing hours worked by doctors and nurses in hospitals is unlikely to change any time soon. A study commissioned by the Rand Corporation has claimed that giving new doctors enough rest to avoid chronic fatigue while they train would cost hospitals $1.6 billion dollars, as extra personnel would have to be hired to fill in for them. It’s just not ‘cost-effective.’ Besides, says Dr. Teryl Nuckols, most errors don’t actually harm a patient. I guess she didn’t read the U.S. Institute of Medicine report in 1999 on between 48,000 and 98,000 Americans dying each year from preventable medical errors ranging from drug overdoses to nosocomial infections, due in large part to resident doctors exhausted and overwhelmed by long hours, mental fatigue and high levels of stress.

Emergency dispatchers are also falling asleep on the job, the most notable public scrutiny falling on dispatcher Ron Kronenberger, who answered a 911 call from Ryan Widmer, accused of killing his wife. In the 911 call, Kronenburger sounded as if he were groggy, at one point asking Widmer if he were his wife’s mother. The county’s investigation found Kronenberger habitually slept on duty, as did another Warren County dispatcher, Shawn Mason. People don’t normally sleep on the job because they’re lazy, or they’ve got nothing better to do. They fall asleep because they’re tired. And it’s a problem for the police. A survey of police found 85 percent have inadvertently fallen asleep while on duty due to lack of sleep. The normal 8-hour shift is rare in any police force, most police officers working ten, eleven, even twelve hour shifts, often without a break. A sheriff’s deputy fell asleep at the wheel during a 12 and a half hour shift, veered across a lane to run into and kill two bicyclists in Cupertino and severely injure a third. ‘Our cops are ticking time bombs for lack of sleep,’ says retired CHP captain Gordon Graham.

And it’s a problem for firemen. Fire Station No. 203 at Standage and University Drive is one of the busiest in the country, but like too many firestations have seen the city cut services as the budget tightens, firefighters stretched longer hours and doing more with fewer resources, leading to chronic fatigue. ‘When you get overstressed with your resources and are extended you are going to lose,’ Mesa fire Capt. Ralph Churchman said. ‘And in this business, it is lives.’ And it’s a problem for the military. Recently, the Navy had a ship run aground because the captain had barely slept in days and the two qualified lookouts who were supposed to be with him were busy elsewhere helping out a woefully undermanned crew. Sailors are routinely standing a watch, then going to work, then standing another watch, with most junior officers getting only three to four hours of sleep a day.

Actually, it’s a problem for all of us. Nearly 40 percent of all US workers are fatigued, costing billions of dollars in lost productivity. For U.S. employers, the overall cost for lost productivity due to fatigue is more than $136 billion per year, with 84% of that lost productivity not due to absenteeism, but simply reduced performance while at work. Employers squeezing more work out of their employees, and employees willing to work harder, for longer, and for less, have resulted in 70 million U.S. workers being clinically exhausted. The estimated cost of accidents where workers could not remain alert or awake ranged from $50 billion to over $100 billion annually. For some, the cost is more than money - in one incident, a worker fell asleep in a crane cab while working the third of three consecutive 13 hour shifts. When he woke up, he exited from the wrong side of the cab and fell 35 feet to his death.

You’d think that business might understand that overly tired employees are hurting their bottom line. But times are tough, jobs are scarce, and big business is not in the business of seeing human beings as anything more than interchangeable cogs in a machine to be used and discarded at will. Worker protections hard-won by unions – minimum wages, maximum hours, health and safety on the job – have been systematically dismantled, from Reagan breaking the spirit of air traffic controllers in the 1970s to WalMart breaking the backs of workers not allowed to unionize today. So while I have the greatest sympathy for the growing number of those with no jobs, it’s possibly more critical that we recognize there’s a lethal cancer invading the vast majority of those who do have jobs, as the top 1% of the Have Mores wring more and more blood out of those Americans who actually make things and make things work. And that’s not just making us tired.

It’s making us dead tired.
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The Yosemite Bear
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

hearing some stuff on this over at crooks and liars, though my mind is making jokes about "Flyover States"....
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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You’d think that business might understand that overly tired employees are hurting their bottom line. But times are tough, jobs are scarce, and big business is not in the business of seeing human beings as anything more than interchangeable cogs in a machine to be used and discarded at will. Worker protections hard-won by unions – minimum wages, maximum hours, health and safety on the job – have been systematically dismantled, from Reagan breaking the spirit of air traffic controllers in the 1970s to WalMart breaking the backs of workers not allowed to unionize today. So while I have the greatest sympathy for the growing number of those with no jobs, it’s possibly more critical that we recognize there’s a lethal cancer invading the vast majority of those who do have jobs, as the top 1% of the Have Mores wring more and more blood out of those Americans who actually make things and make things work. And that’s not just making us tired.

It’s making us dead tired.
This is the price of what accountants call "efficiency". The accountants don't see that you actually need to have a certain overage in personnel to cover one another and to provide a backup for staff who fall ill from time to time and don't leave the remainder hard-pressed to keep up with the work for the week. Or to make up for fatigue. It is not a situation which can be sustained forever and one day there's going to be real hell to pay over it.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by CaptHawkeye »

Accountants probably know what. That's why their's increasing call for automation in workplaces. Replacing more and more personell with machinery and lots of failsafe systems. Failing that, their's also the tried and true tactic of outsourcing. The new Corporate game these days isn't consumer manipulation, like in the 1870s, it's finding and monopolizing the cheapest workers. An easy thing to do considering how globalized the economy has become and is becoming.

Americans seem to be utterly incapable of realizing that the ultimate goals of a Corporation by their very nature, are totally incompatible with any semblance of long term social equality and happiness.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by Uraniun235 »

Patrick Degan wrote:This is the price of what accountants call "efficiency". The accountants don't see that you actually need to have a certain overage in personnel to cover one another and to provide a backup for staff who fall ill from time to time and don't leave the remainder hard-pressed to keep up with the work for the week. Or to make up for fatigue.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've determined that the risk of an occasional accident and loss of life is less costly than proper staffing. Didn't Ford get into hot shit with that sort of thing concerning a design flaw in the 70s?
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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Looks like the FAA has revoked the pilots' licenses and ripped them a new one in their revocation letter (PDF)
KOMO News wrote:WASHINGTON -- The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles.

The pilots - Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Wash., the captain, and Richard Cole of Salem, Ore., the first officer - told safety investigators they were working on their personal laptop computers and lost track of time and place.

The pilots, who were out of communications with air traffic controllers for 91 minutes, violated numerous federal safety regulations in the incident last Wednesday night, the FAA said in a statement. The violations included failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly, the agency said.

"You engaged in conduct that put your passengers and your crew in serious jeopardy," FAA regional counsel Eddie Thomas said in a letter to Cheney. Northwest Flight 188 was not in communications with controllers or the airline dispatchers "while you were on a frolic of your own. ... This is a total dereliction and disregard for your duties."

A similar letter was sent to Cole.

Thomas wrote that the pilots were "disengaged and impervious to the serious threat to your own safety, as well as the safety of people for whom you were responsible."

The pilots said they were brought back to awareness when a flight attendant contacted them on the aircraft's intercom. By then, they were over Wisconsin at 37,000 feet. They turned the Airbus A320 with its 144 passengers around and landed safely in Minneapolis.

The revocations, which apply to the pilots' commercial licenses, are effective immediately, FAA said.

The pilots have 10 days to appeal the emergency revocations to the National Transportation Safety Board.

The pilots' union at Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last year, had cautioned against a rush to judgment. The pilots told investigators who interviewed them on Sunday that they had no previous accidents or safety incidents.

The union had no immediate comment Tuesday.

Delta spokesman Anthony Black said in a statement: "The pilots in command of Northwest Flight 188 remain suspended until the conclusion of the investigations into this incident."

The NTSB has not taken or examined the laptops that the pilots were using, spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz said Tuesday.

"The pilots said they were using them. So I don't know what any examination of them" would do to further the investigation, Lopatkiewicz said.

The pilots failed to respond to numerous radio messages from controllers in Denver and Minneapolis. Other pilots also tried to raise the Northwest pilots, and their airline's dispatchers sent text messages by radio.

Cole and Cheney said they both had their laptops out while the first officer, who had more experience with scheduling, instructed the captain on monthly flight crew scheduling. They said they weren't listening to the radio or watching cockpit flight displays during that period. The plane's radio was also still tuned to the frequency used by Denver controllers after the San Diego-to-Minneapolis flight had flown beyond their reach.

The incident comes only a month after Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood held a meeting in Washington on distracted driving, bringing together researchers, regulators and safety advocates in response to vehicle and train accidents involving texting and cell phone use.

Pilots and aviation safety experts said the episode is likely to cause the NTSB and the FAA to take a hard look at the use of laptops and other personal electronic devices in the cockpit.

There are no federal rules that specifically ban pilots' use of laptops or other personal electronic devices as long as the plane is flying above 10,000 feet, said Diane Spitaliere, an FAA spokeswoman.

Delta said in a statement that using laptops or engaging in activity unrelated to the pilots' command of the aircraft during flight is strictly against the airline's flight deck policies. The airline said violations of that policy will result in termination.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

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CaptHawkeye wrote:The modern airline industry is so much like the Railroad Companies of the 1870s. Ruthless, greedy, whiny, and apathetic. It's not like they need to hide this though. The Airlines know billions of people are reliant on them for transport, and business.
More like millions, but yes, the customer is a huge part of the problem in the United States. Americans expect their air travel to be absurdly cheap, and cry, bitch, and moan about it when it's not. Which is a large part of the reason the airline companies in the US tend to operate on the edge of bankruptcy, unless they're carriers like Southwest which offer no in-flight entertainment, no power outlets, no meals, no First Class/Business Class, and determine their seating and overhead bin usage via passenger cage death-match (read: open seating.)

But, alas, people expect airfare to not cost appreciably more than a Greyhound bus ticket or an Amtrak train ticket.
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Re: What Happened On Northwest Flight 188?

Post by phongn »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:More like millions, but yes, the customer is a huge part of the problem in the United States. Americans expect their air travel to be absurdly cheap, and cry, bitch, and moan about it when it's not. Which is a large part of the reason the airline companies in the US tend to operate on the edge of bankruptcy, unless they're carriers like Southwest which offer no in-flight entertainment, no power outlets, no meals, no First Class/Business Class, and determine their seating and overhead bin usage via passenger cage death-match (read: open seating.)
With the exception of pre-assigned seating and first class, most US domestic travel is like on Southwest these days; the things you've listed really aren't what make Southwest (and other low-cost carriers) profitable.

IIRC, in better years, while airlines had continuous fare wars over restricted-ticket fares they tended to make that up with unrestricted tickets (e.g. business travelers who may often need to change arrangements). These days there's essentially too much capacity in the air so fares are fairly well depressed, compounded by newer lower-cost-carriers undercutting the legacies even if capacity was reduced.
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