Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
open_sketchbook
Jedi Master
Posts: 1145
Joined: 2008-11-03 05:43pm
Location: Ottawa

Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by open_sketchbook »

WASHINGTON -- Militants in Iraq have used $26 off-the-shelf software to intercept live video feeds from U.S. Predator drones, potentially providing them with information they need to evade or monitor U.S. military operations.

Senior defense and intelligence officials said Iranian-backed insurgents intercepted the video feeds by taking advantage of an unprotected communications link in some of the remotely flown planes' systems. Shiite fighters in Iraq used software programs such as SkyGrabber -- available for as little as $25.95 on the Internet -- to regularly capture drone video feeds, according to a person familiar with reports on the matter.

U.S. officials say there is no evidence that militants were able to take control of the drones or otherwise interfere with their flights. Still, the intercepts could give America's enemies battlefield advantages by removing the element of surprise from certain missions and making it easier for insurgents to determine which roads and buildings are under U.S. surveillance.

The drone intercepts mark the emergence of a shadow cyber war within the U.S.-led conflicts overseas. They also point to a potentially serious vulnerability in Washington's growing network of unmanned drones, which have become the American weapon of choice in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Obama administration has come to rely heavily on the unmanned drones because they allow the U.S. to safely monitor and stalk insurgent targets in areas where sending American troops would be either politically untenable or too risky.

The stolen video feeds also indicate that U.S. adversaries continue to find simple ways of counteracting sophisticated American military technologies.

U.S. military personnel in Iraq discovered the problem late last year when they apprehended a Shiite militant whose laptop contained files of intercepted drone video feeds. In July, the U.S. military found pirated drone video feeds on other militant laptops, leading some officials to conclude that militant groups trained and funded by Iran were regularly intercepting feeds.

In the summer 2009 incident, the military found "days and days and hours and hours of proof" that the feeds were being intercepted and shared with multiple extremist groups, the person said. "It is part of their kit now."

A senior defense official said that James Clapper, the Pentagon's intelligence chief, assessed the Iraq intercepts at the direction of Defense Secretary Robert Gates and concluded they represented a shortcoming to the security of the drone network.

"There did appear to be a vulnerability," the defense official said. "There's been no harm done to troops or missions compromised as a result of it, but there's an issue that we can take care of and we're doing so."

Senior military and intelligence officials said the U.S. was working to encrypt all of its drone video feeds from Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, but said it wasn't yet clear if the problem had been completely resolved.

Some of the most detailed evidence of intercepted feeds has been discovered in Iraq, but adversaries have also intercepted drone video feeds in Afghanistan, according to people briefed on the matter. These intercept techniques could be employed in other locations where the U.S. is using pilotless planes, such as Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia, they said.

The Pentagon is deploying record numbers of drones to Afghanistan as part of the Obama administration's troop surge there. Lt. Gen. David Deptula, who oversees the Air Force's unmanned aviation program, said some of the drones would employ a sophisticated new camera system called "Gorgon Stare," which allows a single aerial vehicle to transmit back at least 10 separate video feeds simultaneously.

Gen. Deptula, speaking to reporters Wednesday, said there were inherent risks to using drones since they are remotely controlled and need to send and receive video and other data over great distances. "Those kinds of things are subject to listening and exploitation," he said, adding the military was trying to solve the problems by better encrypting the drones' feeds.

The potential drone vulnerability lies in an unencrypted downlink between the unmanned craft and ground control. The U.S. government has known about the flaw since the U.S. campaign in Bosnia in the 1990s, current and former officials said. But the Pentagon assumed local adversaries wouldn't know how to exploit it, the officials said.

Last December, U.S. military personnel in Iraq discovered copies of Predator drone feeds on a laptop belonging to a Shiite militant, according to a person familiar with reports on the matter. "There was evidence this was not a one-time deal," this person said. The U.S. accuses Iran of providing weapons, money and training to Shiite fighters in Iraq, a charge that Tehran has long denied.

The militants use programs such as SkyGrabber, from Russian company SkySoftware. Andrew Solonikov, one of the software's developers, said he was unaware that his software could be used to intercept drone feeds. "It was developed to intercept music, photos, video, programs and other content that other users download from the Internet -- no military data or other commercial data, only free legal content," he said by email from Russia.

Officials stepped up efforts to prevent insurgents from intercepting video feeds after the July incident. The difficulty, officials said, is that adding encryption to a network that is more than a decade old involves more than placing a new piece of equipment on individual drones. Instead, many components of the network linking the drones to their operators in the U.S., Afghanistan or Pakistan have to be upgraded to handle the changes. Additional concerns remain about the vulnerability of the communications signals to electronic jamming, though there's no evidence that has occurred, said people familiar with reports on the matter.

Predator drones are built by General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc. of San Diego. Some of its communications technology is proprietary, so widely used encryption systems aren't readily compatible, said people familiar with the matter.

In an email, a spokeswoman said that for security reasons, the company couldn't comment on "specific data link capabilities and limitations."

Fixing the security gap would have caused delays, according to current and former military officials. It would have added to the Predator's price. Some officials worried that adding encryption would make it harder to quickly share time-sensitive data within the U.S. military, and with allies.

"There's a balance between pragmatics and sophistication," said Mike Wynne, Air Force Secretary from 2005 to 2008.

The Air Force has staked its future on unmanned aerial vehicles. Drones account for 36% of the planes in the service's proposed 2010 budget.

Today, the Air Force is buying hundreds of Reaper drones, a newer model, whose video feeds could be intercepted in much the same way as with the Predators, according to people familiar with the matter. A Reaper costs between $10 million and $12 million each and is faster and better armed than the Predator. General Atomics expects the Air Force to buy as many as 375 Reapers.
Wall Street Journal


They couldn't control them, obviously, but knowing where a Predator drone is looking would allow insurgents to dodge the cameras and thus the bombs.
1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.

Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I was encrypting sensitive shit on my computer a decade ago, I would have thought the worlds most powerful military would be capable of doing the same thing to stuff that literally decide life and death despite some kind of "proprietary" issue.
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10375
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Solauren »

Idiots (face palm)

You'd think with their combined budget's, the US miltiary forces could afford to create their own operating system that wasn't compatable with commerical software.

Sure, they'd have to do in-house development, but it would be much, much more difficult to 'hack' their stuff.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

The drone intercepts mark the emergence of a shadow cyber war within the U.S.-led conflicts overseas.
Nope, they just mark another case of "we don't care about security until its too late". Shopping for a few dollars on the internet is not a "shadow cyber war". Broadcasting surveillance videos live and unencrypted over the battlefield is a case of serious incompetence.
The stolen video feeds also indicate that U.S. adversaries continue to find simple ways of counteracting sophisticated American military technologies.
You could also say that they find simple ways to exploit glaring security holes in the technology used. Flying drones may be sophisticated, but broadcasting important data unencrypted to all interested parties is not.
A senior defense official said that James Clapper, the Pentagon's intelligence chief, assessed the Iraq intercepts at the direction of Defense Secretary Robert Gates and concluded they represented a shortcoming to the security of the drone network.
Nice assessment. No wonder they made him chief of intelligence.
"There did appear to be a vulnerability," the defense official said.
Wow. Is he the vice chief of intelligence?
"There's been no harm done to troops or missions compromised as a result of it, but there's an issue that we can take care of and we're doing so."
Is he really saying that no missions were compromised despite hundreds of hours of video data on terrorist laptops? I'm wondering how much money he would be willing to bet on that.
Gen. Deptula, speaking to reporters Wednesday, said there were inherent risks to using drones since they are remotely controlled and need to send and receive video and other data over great distances. "Those kinds of things are subject to listening and exploitation," he said,
That is, of course, unless you encrypt your fucking data.
adding the military was trying to solve the problems by better encrypting the drones' feeds.
That should be "by encrypting the drones' feeds", because not all of them were encrypted in the first place.
The potential drone vulnerability lies in an unencrypted downlink between the unmanned craft and ground control.
:banghead:
The U.S. government has known about the flaw since the U.S. campaign in Bosnia in the 1990s, current and former officials said. But the Pentagon assumed local adversaries wouldn't know how to exploit it, the officials said.
They knew for 15 years that they were broadcasting their data live and in the clear, and they did nothing because they thought everybody else was too stupid to notice? But apparently to them that does not sound as a request for the beheading of the guilty.
Fixing the security gap would have caused delays, according to current and former military officials.
So we chose to ignore the issue...
It would have added to the Predator's price.
Even after the x10 military multiplier, this could not have driven up the price by as much as 1%. The contactless public transportation cards used in some major cities have cryptochips on them to encrypt their communication.
Some officials worried that adding encryption would make it harder to quickly share time-sensitive data within the U.S. military, and with allies.
Bullshit, they just need to encrypt the link. The delay is in the milliseconds.
Today, the Air Force is buying hundreds of Reaper drones, a newer model, whose video feeds could be intercepted in much the same way as with the Predators, according to people familiar with the matter. A Reaper costs between $10 million and $12 million each and is faster and better armed than the Predator. General Atomics expects the Air Force to buy as many as 375 Reapers.
With the same problem, I suppose.


Solaren wrote:You'd think with their combined budget's, the US miltiary forces could afford to create their own operating system that wasn't compatable with commerical software.

Sure, they'd have to do in-house development, but it would be much, much more difficult to 'hack' their stuff.
Their stuff was not "hacked", it was intercepted, i.e. someone hung an antenna in the way. They broadcasted it in the clear, just like a TV signal in the old times. All they would have to do is buy a small chip that is readily available. Because developing some incompatible stuff in-house is just another chance to screw it up.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

There'd better be a fucking court martial over this shit.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Serafina »

General Schatten wrote:There'd better be a fucking court martial over this shit.
Agreed.
Especially if you consider that, to FIX that problem, they have to UPGRADE all those drones, which i am pretty sure to be more expensive than installing that stuff in the factory.
And time-consuming, too - and man-hours are not cheap.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Serafina wrote:Especially if you consider that, to FIX that problem, they have to UPGRADE all those drones, which i am pretty sure to be more expensive than installing that stuff in the factory.
I really don't think money is the main problem here. The main problem is that they transmitted classified data to everybody who was willing to point an antenna their way, and that they knew it for 15 years and did nothing. They chose to wait until something happened. Everybody screws up sometimes, but not on this level. Money is a tertiary concern here. The first two are incredibly sloppy design, and incredible (one might be tempted to say: criminal) incompetence in handling this problem when it was detected.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Serafina »

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
Serafina wrote:Especially if you consider that, to FIX that problem, they have to UPGRADE all those drones, which i am pretty sure to be more expensive than installing that stuff in the factory.
I really don't think money is the main problem here. The main problem is that they transmitted classified data to everybody who was willing to point an antenna their way, and that they knew it for 15 years and did nothing. They chose to wait until something happened. Everybody screws up sometimes, but not on this level. Money is a tertiary concern here. The first two are incredibly sloppy design, and incredible (one might be tempted to say: criminal) incompetence in handling this problem when it was detected.
Agreed, i merely wanted to point out that it will cost additional money because of that stupidity.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Resinence
Jedi Knight
Posts: 847
Joined: 2006-05-06 08:00am
Location: Australia

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Resinence »

Sure, they'd have to do in-house development, but it would be much, much more difficult to 'hack' their stuff.
It doesn't really work like that, all protocols and operating systems still use the same basic principles, and security through obscurity is naive, especially when writing something from scratch is guaranteed to have vulnerabilities. There are experimental/hobby OS's that have an architecture that prevents a lot of vulnerabilities (Microsoft Singularity) but I doubt the pentagon even gives a shit.

That said, the pentagon has a history of bullshit like this, they just don't get it. Not long ago you could penetrate military networks with U: User, P: Hello (I wish I was joking., ps the "anti-american messages" were "Your security sucks." :)). Obviously they just assume that everyone else is a drooling idiot.
“Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde.
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Lonestar »

This is fucking Amazing, the DoD network I work on is physically segregated within buildings, runs through an encryption device as it leaves the cell, then runs through another encryption device as it leaves the building, then travels through God only knows how many devices on the DISA backbone...


...and some dude with a laptop can just intercept whatever. Nice going air force.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Sea Skimmer »

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
I really don't think money is the main problem here. The main problem is that they transmitted classified data to everybody who was willing to point an antenna their way, and that they knew it for 15 years and did nothing. They chose to wait until something happened. Everybody screws up sometimes, but not on this level. Money is a tertiary concern here. The first two are incredibly sloppy design, and incredible (one might be tempted to say: criminal) incompetence in handling this problem when it was detected.
They didn’t screw shit up and yeah, money is always the problem. The way Predator was originally designed was to transmit all information via encrypted US military owned satellite systems using its big directional satellite antenna which is near impossible to even intercept. Since all of a sudden the military decided to buy hundreds upon hundreds of these drones and use them as tactical rather then strategic platforms, and Congress has actually been cutting back budgets for new communications satellites, that very limited pool of satellite bandwidth is all used up merely flying the things from Los Vegas. So the downlink had to go in the clear in direct LOS transmissions if you want to supply data to a large number of ground users, which was never really intended. The military has been pressing for vastly expanded satellite communcations, and it just never gets the funding. Obama is now trying to entirely kill our next generation of satellites too, which would start using lasers and bypass the current bottleneck of the limited number of radio airwaves reserved for military use.

And yeah, the military has known about this a long time, this is hardly the first news article on the subject despite all of you blowing a lid, but its also literally had its generals hauled before our retarded ass congress to demand why more UAVs aren’t flying so I’m not surprised no one dared holdup production while also diverting money to add an encryption system. That would also BTW require that all the ground stations be changed, or more likely replaced entirely which is a much bigger issue. A system which can handle the required bandwidth of several hundred megs a second, and uses encryption good enough that it can’t just be cracked by another commercial program (you sure can do that with commercial satellite TV encryption so buying civilian off the shelf products sure wont work) and yet is rugged enough to be carried around in a hummve and used by anyone isn’t nesscaraily easy, or cheep. And then you have to worry about insurgents capturing them out of wrecks anyway.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Lonestar »

Do you know how much a KIV-7M goes for Skimmer? According to those handy-dandy DD 1149s that I've had sites sign on dozens of occasions, around the ballpark of $1500.

Now, obviously you can't just stick a KIV-7M in a Predator and call it a day. BUT to complain about it "costing too much and will hold up production" is asinine. It is sheer fucking laziness and a pennywise pound-foolish attitude.

I see it every day. Although drone feeds in the clear is a new one for me.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Lonestar wrote:Do you know how much a KIV-7M goes for Skimmer? According to those handy-dandy DD 1149s that I've had sites sign on dozens of occasions, around the ballpark of $1500.

Now, obviously you can't just stick a KIV-7M in a Predator and call it a day. BUT to complain about it "costing too much and will hold up production" is asinine. It is sheer fucking laziness and a pennywise pound-foolish attitude.

I see it every day. Although drone feeds in the clear is a new one for me.
Well if they got something that cheap that can handle the bandwidth that is pretty lazy, but as far as I can tell we have people in hummves getting Predator feeds on laptops… so is it any real surprise other people with laptops can do the same thing? Anyway that thing would work for a Predator or a Reaper, but most drones are Hunters or even smaller things in which you might not physically have space for anything like that.

The clear feeds shouldn’t be news, back in like 2003 or 04 this was public information because a guy in the UK who lived near one of the commercial satellite downlinks terminals the US military initially used to handle ever expanding drone bandwidth found he could see the drone feeds…. on his TV. NOTHING was required except to tune to the proper satellite channel on his receiver which had previously been blank. However at the time it was only drones over Kosovo being broadcast that way, they still had enough military satcom for the ones in Iraq. Vulnerability to electronic warfare has always been the number one objection to drones anyway. That’s why Predator was supposed to be all satellite in the first place.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Lonestar »

Sea Skimmer wrote: Well if they got something that cheap that can handle the bandwidth that is pretty lazy, but as far as I can tell we have people in hummves getting Predator feeds on laptops… so is it any real surprise other people with laptops can do the same thing?
It's super lazy, and we run Multi-connection VTCs through these things every day. The bottleneck is always at the tech control or transmission point.
The clear feeds shouldn’t be news, back in like 2003 or 04 this was public information because a guy in the UK who lived near one of the commercial satellite downlinks terminals the US military initially used to handle ever expanding drone bandwidth found he could see the drone feeds…. on his TV. NOTHING was required except to tune to the proper channel which had previously been blank. However at the time it was only drones over Kosovo being broadcast that way, they still had enough military satcom for the ones in Iraq.
Yeah, I saw that CBS video too(back in 2002). Every now and then something happens that makes the DoD unfuck themselves and close the hole, I had assumed it had happened.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
GySgt. Hartman
Jedi Knight
Posts: 553
Joined: 2004-01-08 05:07am
Location: Paris Island

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by GySgt. Hartman »

Sea Skimmer wrote:They didn’t screw shit up and yeah, money is always the problem. The way Predator was originally designed was to transmit all information via encrypted US military owned satellite systems using its big directional satellite antenna which is near impossible to even intercept. [...] So the downlink had to go in the clear in direct LOS transmissions if you want to supply data to a large number of ground users, which was never really intended.
And that is where they screwed up. I don't know what they US mil uses to encrypt their sat comm, but they should have either used the same system for the ground stations, or retrofitted the drones with new hardware. I would guess that the videos from the drones are classified - and broadcasting classified information in the clear is clearly not acceptable.
And yeah, the military has known about this a long time, this is hardly the first news article on the subject despite all of you blowing a lid, but its also literally had its generals hauled before our retarded ass congress to demand why more UAVs aren’t flying so I’m not surprised no one dared holdup production while also diverting money to add an encryption system. That would also BTW require that all the ground stations be changed, or more likely replaced entirely which is a much bigger issue.
Securing your system involves work and money. Is that a reason not to do it? I am rather surprised that nobody diverted money to protect sensitive information, and I would like to know a good reason for it. It is hard to believe that they would just lean back and blame congress.
A system which can handle the required bandwidth of several hundred megs a second, and uses encryption good enough that it can’t just be cracked by another commercial program (you sure can do that with commercial satellite TV encryption so buying civilian off the shelf products sure wont work) and yet is rugged enough to be carried around in a hummve and used by anyone isn’t nesscaraily easy, or cheep.

So because pay tv encryption sucks there are no good commercial encryption products? AES is standardized, it's fast, secure, cheap, and a good starting point for this kind of thing. The government, military, and intelligence agencies use so much encryption hardware that it can't be that expensive, and you can encrypt gigabit networks with almost no delay.
And then you have to worry about insurgents capturing them out of wrecks anyway.
That means the solution is to hand them the data stream on a silver platter?
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Serafina »

Well, if i am informed correctly, there is no real need to encrypt a sattelite connection, since it is physically difficult to intercept it.

Which would mean that the Predator does not have any encryption capability at all.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Lonestar »

Serafina wrote:Well, if i am informed correctly, there is no real need to encrypt a sattelite connection, since it is physically difficult to intercept it.
Depends upon how big the footprint is.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Oskuro »

Funny. So they assumed that, since the enemy lives in a third-world shithole, they would never come up with ways to intercept the signal.

Glad to see that line of thinking keeps coming back to bite them in the ass.
unsigned
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Serafina »

LordOskuro wrote:Funny. So they assumed that, since the enemy lives in a third-world shithole, they would never come up with ways to intercept the signal.

Glad to see that line of thinking keeps coming back to bite them in the ass.
They did not intercept the satellite-uplink. They intercepted the signals from the Predator to ground forces.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Ryan Thunder
Village Idiot
Posts: 4139
Joined: 2007-09-16 07:53pm
Location: Canada

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Ryan Thunder »

LordOskuro wrote:Funny. So they assumed that, since the enemy lives in a third-world shithole, they would never come up with ways to intercept the signal.
Clearly some traitor must have leaked the idea to them.


(:P)
SDN Worlds 5: Sanctum
Knobbyboy88
Padawan Learner
Posts: 311
Joined: 2008-04-28 03:56pm

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Knobbyboy88 »

When I was in training, you could get kicked out of your MOS and brought up on criminal charges for so much as bringing a damn cell phone with you into a classroom where sensitive material was being covered. Do you honestly mean to tell me that the higher-ups couldn't figure out that they needed to encrypt the video feed from Predator Drones IN THEATER?

Military logic at the command level can basically be summed up as follows:

If some major problem needs to be fixed, procrastinate on fixing it until a truckload of soldiers die over the oversight and it becomes a media firestorm, and THEN fix it. If on the otherhand, the matter at hand is some anal retentive nit-picky non-issue, regulate and enforce that shit out the wazoo just to make sure everyone is miserable.

In other words, If it makes too much sense, DON'T DO IT. :lol:
"Because its in the script!"
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Can't they have high-flying AWACS birds perform the same function as the satellite-uplinks, by having the Predators and other drones beam their transmissions to an aircraft instead of a satellite?
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Lord of the Abyss
Village Idiot
Posts: 4046
Joined: 2005-06-15 12:21am
Location: The Abyss

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

According to this story, the problem isn't just drones; apparently US military aircraft in general can be tapped into.
Tapping into drones’ video feeds was just the start. The U.S. military’s primary system for bringing overhead surveillance down to soldiers and Marines on the ground is also vulnerable to electronic interception, multiple military sources tell Danger Room. That means militants have the ability to see through the eyes of all kinds of combat aircraft — from traditional fighters and bombers to unmanned spy planes. The problem is in the process of being addressed. But for now, an enormous security breach is even larger than previously thought.

The military initially developed the Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver, or ROVER, in 2002. The idea was let troops on the ground download footage from Predator drones and AC-130 gunships as it was being taken. Since then, nearly every airplane in the American fleet — from F-16 and F/A-18 fighters to A-10 attack planes to Harrier jump jets to B-1B bombers has been outfitted with equipment that lets them transmit to ROVERs. Thousands of ROVER terminals have been distributed to troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But those early units were “fielded so fast that it was done with an unencrypted signal. It could be both intercepted (e.g. hacked into) and jammed,” e-mails an Air Force officer with knowledge of the program. In a presentation last month before a conference of the Army Aviation Association of America, a military official noted that the current ROVER terminal “receives only unencrypted L, C, S, Ku [satellite] bands.”

So the same security breach that allowed insurgent to use satellite dishes and $26 software to intercept drone feeds can be used the tap into the video transmissions of any plane.

The military is working to plug the hole — introducing new ROVER models that communicate without spilling its secrets. “Recognizing the potential for future exploitation the Air Force has been working aggressively to encrypt these ROVER downlink signals. It is my understanding that we have already developed the technical encryption solutions and are fielding them,” the Air Force officer notes.

But it won’t be easy. An unnamed Pentagon official tells reporters that “this is an old issue that’s been addressed.” Air Force officers contacted by Danger Room disagree, strongly.

“This is not a trivial solution,” one officer observes. “Almost every fighter/bomber/ISR [intelligence surveillance reconnaissance] platform we have in theater has a ROVER downlink. All of our Tactical Air Control Parties and most ground TOCs [tactical operations centers] have ROVER receivers. We need to essentially fix all of the capabilities before a full transition can occur and in the transition most capabilities need to be dual-capable (encrypted and unencrypted).”

Which presents all sorts of problems. Let’s say a drone or an A-10 is sent to cover soldiers under fire. If the aircraft has an encrypted transmitter and the troops have an unencrypted ROVER receiver, that surveillance footage can’t be passed down to the soldiers who need it most.

“Can these feeds be encrypted with 99.5 percent chance of no compromise? Absolutely! Can you guarantee that all the encryption keys make it down to the lowest levels in the Army or USMC [United States Marine Corps]? No way,” adds a second Air Force officer, familiar with the ROVER issue. “Do they trust their soldiers/Marines with these encryption keys? Don’t know that.”

Since the top commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, issued strict new guidelines on the use of airstrikes, the United States has turned nearly every plane in its inventory into an eye in the sky. Sending video down to those ROVER terminals has become job No. 1 for most American air crews flying today.

And U.S. troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan have come to depend on the feeds. “For sure,” Lt. Col. Greg Harbin told the Los Angeles Times, “I would be dead without this technology.”

Still, some Air Force officers downplayed the significance of the ROVER’s security hole. “If you’re an insurgent, you need to know when and where [aircraft] are flying and then be within the line-of-sight footprint of the feed for any chance of successfully using the information real-time,” one officer writes. “This is much to do about nothing. You have bigger fish to fry.”

“The ranges on these signals is not very great, they are low-power and intended for line-of sight communications. A risk has been identified, [but] it poses limited immediate operational or tactical risk, and certainly does not outweigh the value of thee capabilities,” a second notes.

I have immense respect for both of these officers. But I’m not sure I buy their arguments. If real-time video feeds are valuable to U.S. troops, then it stands to reason that the footage is valuable to insurgent forces, as well. Either this is important data — and worth protecting — or it isn’t.

UPDATE: Some military drones are “particularly susceptible” to having their video tapped, a senior military officer tells Danger Room. That’s because these smaller unmanned aircraft — like the Shadow, Hunter, and Raven — broadcast their surveillance footage constantly and in every direction. All you have to do, basically, is stand within “line of sight” of the drone, and you can tap in. “It’s like criminals using radio scanners to pick up police communications,” the senior officer says.

Larger aircraft — both manned and unmanned — are a little less vulnerable. They can shut off their video feeds if no friendly forces are watching at the time. And they can “neck down” those omnidirectional signals a bit. So it’s more difficult to intercept the transmission. The officer contends that there have “not been any significant — not any impact — on operations as a result of this.”

Still, systems like the ROVER (and the Predator, for that matter) were “built to be cheap. They used commercial off-the-shelf hardware. We wanted to get stuff out there. So it’s not gonna be perfect,” the officer adds. “So yeah, if we’re broadcasting in the electromagnetic spectrum and you’re underneath the footprint, you can receive it. Duh-uhhhh.”
"Duh" indeed. That's why you encrypt it.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Sarevok »

Sounds like the problem is not with US military technology. The problem is they underestimated their opponents. They thought everyone they fight would be barely literate thugs with guns. But the fact is insurgents have backing from people like Iranians who build their own guided missiles and drone aircraft. Their cadre includes technicians who construct sophisticated remote detonated weapons that work via infrared or radio link. So why should it be any surprise that the enemy does posses a practical understanding of 21st century electronics technology ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Insurgents Hack Predator Drone

Post by Simon_Jester »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Can't they have high-flying AWACS birds perform the same function as the satellite-uplinks, by having the Predators and other drones beam their transmissions to an aircraft instead of a satellite?
That wouldn't really solve the problem of beaming the data back to the ground (which is what's being intercepted here). Also, keeping AWACS planes in the air on a 24-hour basis costs money, and for all I know might actually be more expensive in the long run than satellites (which are expensive up front, but cost little or nothing to maintain once they're in orbit).
Sarevok wrote:Sounds like the problem is not with US military technology. The problem is they underestimated their opponents. They thought everyone they fight would be barely literate thugs with guns. But the fact is insurgents have backing from people like Iranians who build their own guided missiles and drone aircraft. Their cadre includes technicians who construct sophisticated remote detonated weapons that work via infrared or radio link. So why should it be any surprise that the enemy does posses a practical understanding of 21st century electronics technology ?
Maybe (tentatively) part of the problem is that while there are very skilled technicians in the cadre, the foot soldiers are semiliterate thugs with guns. The foot soldiers are the ones we actually see, with the technical cadre hanging back and not going out on suicide missions, this would tend to promote the kind of bias you're talking about.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Post Reply