Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by MKSheppard »

Why who could have predicted this when Obama announced that he was closing Gitmo?

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Under Obama, more targeted killings than captures in counterterrorism efforts

By Karen DeYoung and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 14, 2010; A01



When a window of opportunity opened to strike the leader of al-Qaeda in East Africa last September, U.S. Special Operations forces prepared several options. They could obliterate his vehicle with an airstrike as he drove through southern Somalia. Or they could fire from helicopters that could land at the scene to confirm the kill. Or they could try to take him alive.

The White House authorized the second option. On the morning of Sept. 14, helicopters flying from a U.S. ship off the Somali coast blew up a car carrying Saleh Ali Nabhan. While several hovered overhead, one set down long enough for troops to scoop up enough of the remains for DNA verification. Moments later, the helicopters were headed back to the ship.

The strike was considered a major success, according to senior administration and military officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the classified operation and other sensitive matters. But the opportunity to interrogate one of the most wanted U.S. terrorism targets was gone forever.

The Nabhan decision was one of a number of similar choices the administration has faced over the past year as President Obama has escalated U.S. attacks on the leadership of al-Qaeda and its allies around the globe. The result has been dozens of targeted killings and no reports of high-value detentions.

Although senior administration officials say that no policy determination has been made to emphasize kills over captures, several factors appear to have tipped the balance in that direction. The Obama administration has authorized such attacks more frequently than the George W. Bush administration did in its final years, including in countries where U.S. ground operations are officially unwelcome or especially dangerous. Improvements in electronic surveillance and precision targeting have made killing from a distance much more of a sure thing. At the same time, options for where to keep U.S. captives have dwindled.

Republican critics, already scornful of limits placed on interrogation of the suspect in the Christmas Day bombing attempt, charge that the administration has been too reluctant to risk an international incident or a domestic lawsuit to capture senior terrorism figures alive and imprison them.

"Over a year after taking office, the administration has still failed to answer the hard questions about what to do if we have the opportunity to capture and detain a terrorist overseas, which has made our terror-fighters reluctant to capture and left our allies confused," Sen. Christopher S. Bond (Mo.), the ranking Republican on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, said Friday. "If given a choice between killing or capturing, we would probably kill."

Some military and intelligence officials, citing what they see as a new bias toward kills, questioned whether valuable intelligence is being lost in the process. "We wanted to take a prisoner," a senior military officer said of the Nabhan operation. "It was not a decision that we made."

Even during the Bush administration, "there was an inclination to 'just shoot the bastard,' " said a former intelligence official briefed on current operations. "But now there's an even greater proclivity for doing it that way. . . . We need to have the capability to snatch when the situation calls for it."

Lack of detention policy

One problem identified by those within and outside the government is the question of where to take captives apprehended outside established war zones and cooperating countries. "We've been trying to decide this for over a year," the senior military officer said. "When you don't have a detention policy or a set of facilities," he said, operational decisions become more difficult.

The administration has pledged to close the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; Congress has resisted moving any of the about 190 detainees remaining there, let alone terrorism suspects who have been recently captured, to this country. All of the CIA's former "black site" prisons have been shut down, and a U.S. official involved in operations planning confirmed that the agency has no terrorism suspects in its custody. Although the CIA retains the right to briefly retain terrorism suspects, any detainees would be quickly transferred to a military prison or an allied government with jurisdiction over the case, the official said.

Military officials emphasized that terrorism suspects continue to be captured in Iraq and Afghanistan. But in Iraq, where counterterrorism operations must be approved in advance by its government and conducted with Iraqi forces in the lead, all prisoners must be turned over to Baghdad.

In Afghanistan, the massive U.S.-run prison at the Bagram air base is scheduled to be relinquished to the Afghan government by the end of the year. Its 750 prisoners include about 30 foreigners, some of them captured in other countries and brought there. But recent legal decisions, and Afghan government restrictions, have largely eliminated that option.

"In some cases," the senior military official said, captives in Afghanistan have been taken to "other facilities" maintained by Special Operations forces. Such detentions, even on a temporary basis, have become more difficult because of legal and human rights concerns, he said.

Cooperation overseas

Outside the established war zones, senior administration and military officials said, how an operation is conducted and whether its goal is killing or capturing depend on where it is taking place and which U.S. agency is involved. American personnel have worked closely on counterterrorism missions with local forces in Indonesia, the Philippines and elsewhere, with those countries in the lead.

Al-Qaeda and Taliban havens in Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas along the border are considered part of the Afghanistan war theater. The Pakistani government tacitly permits CIA-operated unmanned aircraft to target terrorist sites and militants up to 50 miles inside the country. Under an executive order first signed by Bush and continued in force under Obama, the CIA does not have to seek higher administration authority before striking.

But while U.S. Special Forces work closely with the CIA on the Afghan side of the border, any ground operation in Pakistan would require specific White House approval, which so far has not been granted. In addition to the difficulty such a mission would pose amid a hostile population in rugged terrain, the Pakistani government has drawn a red line against allowing U.S. boots on the ground, and the risk of sparking an anti-American backlash is seen as too great.

Beyond Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, potentially lethal operations must be approved by Obama or his designee, which can include the CIA director and the defense secretary. In Yemen, stepped-up military and intelligence cooperation with the country's government, including the use of U.S. aircraft and munitions for raids against a list of targets suspected of involvement with terrorist groups, was approved by Obama late last year, and at least two lethal attacks have taken place in coordination with Yemeni ground forces. Any captives belong to Yemen.

The Somalia calculus

Somalia poses unique problems. In the vast majority of the country, there is no functioning government to approve or coordinate operations, or to take custody of captives. Under the Bush administration, the military conducted several White House-approved air operations against alleged senior terrorist figures fleeing south after the 2006 U.S.-backed ouster of the Islamic government there. But while military teams made quick forays over the border to the targeted sites, finding and identifying bodies proved difficult.

Nabhan, a 30-year-old Kenyan, had long been a prime U.S. target. A senior official in the al-Shabab militia fighting to overthrow the U.S.-supported transition government in Somalia and impose strict Islamic law, he was said to be the chief link between the main al-Qaeda organization and its East African allies. Wanted by the FBI in connection with the 1998 attacks on U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, he was also accused in the 2002 bombing of an Israeli-owned resort in Kenya and an attempt to shoot down an Israeli airliner that year.

After tracking him for a while, the Special Operations Command thought it had established a sufficient pattern of activity to target him and had the time to plan for it. Several alternatives, including capture, were developed and assessed under military procedures for missions outside recognized war theaters.

Planners were asked for more details on the proposed force to be used, intelligence proving the target's location and the level of verification, and operational details -- including, in the case of capture, where Nabhan would be taken. Planned under U.S. Central Command, the operation was turned over to the U.S. Africa Command for implementation.

On the political side, the National Security Council received detailed versions of each proposed course of action. At that level, the senior administration official said, "there is an evaluation making sure you are able to prosecute the mission successfully . . . and minimize the dangers and risks."

The Somalia calculus, several officials said, included weighing the likelihood that U.S. troops on the ground for any amount of time in the militia-controlled south would be particularly vulnerable to attack. Looming large, they said, was the memory of the last time a U.S. combat helicopter was on the ground in lawless Somalia, the 1993 Black Hawk debacle that resulted in the deaths of 18 soldiers.

"There are certain upsides and certain downsides to certain paths," the administration official said. "The safety and security of U.S. military personnel is always something the president keeps at the highest level of his calculus."
I really don't mind this, as long as we can maintain security over the killzone long enough to loot the corpses p-p-p-powerbooks for intelligence, and anything else that isn't nailed down, and occasionally nab a live one or two to back up the intelligence we get from the various electronic devices, papers, books, that inevitably follow terrorists around -- they are some of the world's biggest packrats concerning data relating to their operations.

But exit question. Which is more humane? Extrajudicical executions via hellfire, or indefinite detention at Bagram or Gitmo? Hmmm.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Questor »

MKSheppard wrote:Why who could have predicted this when Obama announced that he was closing Gitmo?
I can't prove it, but I said something exactly like this to my father after the announcement. I said something to the effect of "well, if you don't take any prisoners, you don't need Gitmo."
I really don't mind this, as long as we can maintain security over the killzone long enough to loot the corpses p-p-p-powerbooks for intelligence, and anything else that isn't nailed down, and occasionally nab a live one or two to back up the intelligence we get from the various electronic devices, papers, books, that inevitably follow terrorists around -- they are some of the world's biggest packrats concerning data relating to their operations.
I'd imagine that kind of intel is preferred anyway.
But exit question. Which is more humane? Extrajudicical executions via hellfire, or indefinite detention at Bagram or Gitmo? Hmmm.
I know which I'd prefer, but then I also know which my sister would argue.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Count Chocula »

Sabhan's killing was a COVERUP, I tell you! See, Sabhan could prove Barack Obama, I mean Barry Soetoro, was born in Kenya and therefore an IMPOSTOR PRESIDENT!1!1! He had to be killed because he always carried the evidence of Obama's non-Americanship in a special capsule in his colon. So it's only logical that he be Hellfired to protect The American Way.

Seriously, while I don't disagree with the results, this is an unintended consequence of limiting our options for handling these militant rhinoheads. If you take away the pliers (Guantanamo) and all you have left is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail. The biggest loss from just killing these people is the lack of information on other cells or operations that we could get from them if they were captured.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Feil »

What is your issue, here, Shep? If someone is not yet in custody, you can't execute them. Do you seriously intend to bitch about people killing the enemy in a war? Or are you just dishonestly twisting the language to give a false impression?
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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Feil wrote:What is your issue, here, Shep? If someone is not yet in custody, you can't execute them.
A lot of people who lean left like to couch the drone campaign as being extrajudical executions.
Do you seriously intend to bitch about people killing the enemy in a war?
Well, since people bitched about us taking the enemy prisoner, obviously the safer alternative politically is now to just kill them. Which is what a lot of people predicted a while ago, RE: Obama Administration and Gitmo Closure.

But even that is fraught with problems from the international press and those who lean left.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by K. A. Pital »

MKSheppard wrote:A lot of people who lean left like to couch the drone campaign as being extrajudical executions.
There is no trial; it's a war. That's strange how one can even begin to describe it as "executions".
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

just so long as we don't accidentally kill some waiter because he has the same last name as someone. (sorry Isreali intelegence joke)
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

MKSheppard wrote:Well, since people bitched about us taking the enemy prisoner, obviously the safer alternative politically is now to just kill them
Nobody ever bitched about taking prisoners; people bitched about the systematic torture of these prisoners. Is that distinction really too complicated for you to understand?
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

MKSheppard wrote:Why who could have predicted this when Obama announced that he was closing Gitmo?
Well, considering that he's a Democrat, and they have more of a history of actually going after terrorists than using them as bogeymen*, there's not much surprise for me.
MKSheppard wrote:But exit question. Which is more humane? Extrajudicical executions via hellfire, or indefinite detention at Bagram or Gitmo? Hmmm.
They aren't extrajudicial executions. And being blown apart by a missile is far more moral than what we did at Gitmo and so forth. For that matter, even blowing apart random innocent people for the fun of it would be less evil than what we did there; we tortured innocents too, you know; quite possibly mostly innocents.

* Not an exaggeration; consider that Clinton's people caught and imprisoned the terrorists who attacked the WTC on his watch. And as I recall, the CIA at one point estimated that Osama was releasing his messages timed according to when Bush's popularity flagged, to help whip up right wing fervor in America. Republicans talk big, but they don't actually care about terrorism except as a bloody shirt to wave to push their agenda.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Well, since people bitched about us taking the enemy prisoner, obviously the safer alternative politically is now to just kill them
Nobody ever bitched about taking prisoners; people bitched about the systematic torture of these prisoners. Is that distinction really too complicated for you to understand?
Don't forget holding those prisoners indefinitely without trial.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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The US could not figure out how many innocent people mistaken as islamic militants were languishing in American captivity. What gurantee is there the same mistake will not be made when executing people by drone strikes ? Wrongfully imprisoned people can be released but the dead can not be brought back. And how is US intelligence going to find the right people to kill ? They could not even accurately find out whether people they had fucking imprisoned and interrogated for years in a confined enviroment were terrorist or not. Somehow i feel safe knowing that they can vaporize one guy out of millions without mistake when they had put wrong people behind bars at gitmo for years and were adament they were 100 percent correct.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah. Trials are important.

In a normal war, you do not need to hold a trial of enemy POWs, because you know they were part of the enemy army, on account of wearing a uniform and so forth. In a War on Terrorism... it's easier to make mistakes. People get grabbed on raids in the confusion, whether they deserve to or not. People get mistaken for known individuals and targeted for that reason. People get identified as terrorists by a neighbor with a grudge. And so on.

That makes it unusually important to double-check, to make sure we aren't just grabbing people at random and asserting that we have captured "terrorists," and then putting them through years of interrogation for information they don't have. Even if we don't torture them, it's still wrong to do that, and even if it weren't wrong, it would still be a waste of resources and a terrible PR blunder.

On the other hand, most of these targeted assassinations are carefully prepared over days or weeks to go after a specific person, with multiple double-checks on their identity. They are probably more reliable than the process normally used to capture the Guantanamo inmates, I'd expect.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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I am not comfortable with the "this is WAR!" angle. If this was a war then what are the victory conditions ? How many cities to capture before the enemy surrenders ? Terrorism is a complex issue and trying to justice extreme measures is a dangerous slippery slope. As far as we know terrorism will exist in one form or another for a long time. Why sacrifice principles fighting a war that has no end or can not be won ever ? Far too many injustices have been done in the name of America being at war. As far as I can tell after nine years and many dead people America is no more closer to declaring victory over terrorists.

I do not think vaporize people with missiles can be dealt with in same way as a normal war here. There has to be some middle ground between processes a state goes through before hanging a normal criminal given death penalty and casually destroying enemy soldiers alongside their tanks and planes during a war.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Julhelm »

If you assassinate an innocent, there is zero chance he'll turn into a terrorist down the road compared to if you torture him and then release him after a few years.

Not to mention whatever intel the corpse has on him is infinitely more trustworthy than what you get from torturing someone.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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Can't you apply the same logic to civilian law enforcement ? Allow police to shoot whomever they like under the presumption they will never go bad and kill someone ?
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by K. A. Pital »

Sarevok wrote:Allow police to shoot whomever they like under the presumption they will never go bad and kill someone ?
Well, actually the police has the right to shoot those who resist with arms. Presumably, the identity of the human can be checked reasonably, and if he did take up arms, then his liquidation is warranted. This is a little more complex than police operation against an armed person, but then again, it's closer to war than to a police operation - the territory is not fully controlled and it's not just a matter of law enforcement.

The Gitmo solution certainly does not look superior to assassinations of armed resistance members, anyway.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Sarevok »

The Gitmo solution certainly does not look superior to assassinations of armed resistance members, anyway.
I would disagree. Imagine what would happen if the only solution was to execute someone and let them walk away. The gitmo solution was awful but not as bad as being stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of flexibility.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Sarevok wrote:Can't you apply the same logic to civilian law enforcement ? Allow police to shoot whomever they like under the presumption they will never go bad and kill someone ?
That analogy doesn't necessarily work. One can think that killing innocent people is better morally and practically than torturing them, and still not approve of either. Julhelm didn't say he actually approved; just that it was better.
Sarevok wrote:
The Gitmo solution certainly does not look superior to assassinations of armed resistance members, anyway.
I would disagree. Imagine what would happen if the only solution was to execute someone and let them walk away.
Um, what? The Zombie Resistance Front?
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Sarevok »

Damn typos !

Should have been 'and' not 'or'.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Julhelm »

The thing is the level of suspicion will probably be higher if your only option is assassinating someone. Assassination is a more complex and expensive operation compared to locking up whatever random dude the local militias hand you for reward money. So the innocent guys would be less likely to be hit.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

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Assassination is also easier to deal with than locking these people up too -- after all if you kill them right off the bat you don't have to face the reality that your justice system is utterly incapable of dealing with suspected terrorists. Whatever happened to trying to charge these guys with something first?

As an aside, the fact that the Republicans still "charge that the administration has been too reluctant to risk an international incident" after the Obama administration greenlighted the machinegunning by a Navy helicopter of a foreign national on foreign soil is pretty illustrative of their attitude toward, well, everybody who isn't the USA.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by General Brock »

Since neither solution is particularly humane, there is no answer.

Thank you Obama, Neocon Uncle Tom.
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by hongi »

General Brock wrote:Since neither solution is particularly humane, there is no answer.

Thank you Obama, Neocon Uncle Tom.
Lolwut? Of course war isn't humane. Just how do you think we should go about killing terrorists if not with their blood and guts staining the ground? You do want us to kill terrorists, don't you?
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by Stark »

Are you serious?

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THEY ARE BOTH NEGATIVE THERE IS NO ANSWER! :roll: :roll:

It's pretty sad that Shep honestly thinks it's a conundrum if 'being killed instantly' is somehow worse or comparable to 'be confined and tortured for years without trial by the home of democracy and freedom'. :lol:
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Re: Extrajudicial Executions Continue Apace Under Obama

Post by General Brock »

hongi wrote:
General Brock wrote:Since neither solution is particularly humane, there is no answer.

Thank you Obama, Neocon Uncle Tom.
Lolwut? Of course war isn't humane. Just how do you think we should go about killing terrorists if not with their blood and guts staining the ground? You do want us to kill terrorists, don't you?
You know, it would be much easier to address the grievances of 'medieval' minded terrorist types and the perpetrators themselves were it not for the idiots stuck in the darkest days of the bronze age Old Testament guiding Western policy.

A combination of good intel and police work, resulting in arrests and humane public trials that demonstrated the inhumanity of terrorism and the inexcusable inhumanity of those who would sponsor and enact it would be a whole lot more effective in defeating that idiotology than trying to match it eye for eye, tooth for tooth, let alone trying to exceed it in antihumanitarian accomplishment.

Unless, of course, the objective was to have antihumanitarian sentiment prevail as the dominant ideological spirit of the West, with right and wrong redefined by politics over objective reality.
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