Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

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Liberty
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Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Liberty »

And I thought my parents were prolific!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/nyregion/21yitta.html
February 18, 2010
New York Times
God Said Multiply, and Did She Ever
By JOSEPH BERGER
WHEN Yitta Schwartz died last month at 93, she left behind 15 children, more than 200 grandchildren and so many great- and great-great-grandchildren that, by her family’s count, she could claim perhaps 2,000 living descendants.

Mrs. Schwartz was a member of the Satmar Hasidic sect, whose couples have nine children on average and whose ranks of descendants can multiply exponentially. But even among Satmars, the size of Mrs. Schwartz’s family is astonishing. A round-faced woman with a high-voltage smile, she may have generated one of the largest clans of any survivor of the Holocaust — a thumb in the eye of the Nazis.

Her descendants range in age from a 75-year-old daughter named Shaindel to a great-great-granddaughter born Feb. 10 named Yitta in honor of Mrs. Schwartz and a great-great-grandson born Feb. 15 who will be named at a bris on Monday. Their numbers include rabbis, teachers, merchants, plumbers and truck drivers. But these many apples have not fallen far from the tree: With a few exceptions, like one grandson who lives in England, they mostly live in local Satmar communities, like Williamsburg in Brooklyn and Kiryas Joel, near Monroe, N.Y., where Mrs. Schwartz lived for the last 30 years of her life.

Mrs. Schwartz had a zest for life and a devotion to Hasidic rituals, faithfully attending the circumcisions, first haircuts, bar mitzvahs, engagements and weddings of her descendants. With 2,000 people in the family, such events occupied much of the year.

Whatever the occasion, she would pack a small suitcase and thumb a ride from her apartment in Kiryas Joel to Williamsburg or elsewhere.

“She would appear like the Prophet Elijah,” said one of her daughters, Nechuma Mayer, who at 64 is her sixth-oldest living child, and who has 16 children and more than 100 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. “Everybody was fighting over her!”

There were so many occasions that, to avoid scheduling conflicts, one of her sons was assigned to keep a family calendar. But her family insists that Mrs. Schwartz had no trouble remembering everyone’s name and face.

Like many Hasidim, Mrs. Schwartz considered bearing children as her tribute to God. A son-in-law, Rabbi Menashe Mayer, a lushly bearded scholar, said she took literally the scriptural command that “You should not forget what you saw and heard at Mount Sinai and tell it to your grandchildren.”

“And she wanted to do that,” he said, without needing to add her belief that the more grandchildren, the more the commandment is fulfilled. Mrs. Schwartz gave birth 18 times, but lost two children in the Holocaust and one in a summer camp accident here.

She was born in 1916 into a family of seven children in the Hungarian village of Kalev, revered as the hometown of a founder of Hungarian Hasidism. During World War II, the Nazis sent Mrs. Schwartz, her husband, Joseph, and the six children they had at the time to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

At the shiva last month, another Bergen-Belsen survivor recalled her own mother dying at the camp; Mrs. Schwartz took it upon herself to prepare the body according to Jewish ritual, dig a grave and bury the woman.

“For her it was a matter of necessity,” Nechuma Mayer said of her mother’s actions.

When the war ended, the family made its way to Antwerp, Belgium. There, Mrs. Schwartz put up refugees in makeshift beds in her own bombed-out apartment.

In 1953, the Schwartzes migrated to the United States, settling into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. She arrived with 11 children — Shaindel, Chana, Dinah, Yitschok, Shamshon, Nechuma, Nachum, Nechemia, Hadassah, Mindel and Bella — and proceeded to have five more: Israel, Joel, Aron, Sarah and Chaim Shloime, who died in summer camp at age 8. Sarah came along after Mrs. Schwartz had already married off two other daughters.

While her husband sold furniture on Lee Avenue, Williamsburg’s commercial spine, Mrs. Schwartz, who never learned English well, tended the family. She sewed her daughters’ jumpers with mother-of-pearl buttons and splurged for pink-and-white blouses — 20 for 99 cents each — at that late lamented discount emporium on Union Square, S. Klein.

With so many children, Mrs. Schwartz had to make six loaves of challah for every Sabbath, using 12 pounds of dough — in later years, she was aided by Kitchenaid or Hobart appliances. (Mrs. Mayer said her mother had weaknesses for modern conveniences, and for elegant head scarves.) For her children’s weddings, Mrs. Schwartz starched the tablecloths and baked the chocolate babkas and napoleons.

After her husband died 34 years ago, relatives said, Mrs. Schwartz never burdened others with her new solitude.

“We didn’t feel even one minute that she was a widow,” Mrs. Mayer said. “She used to say, ‘When there are so many problems in life, I should put myself on the scale?’ ”

Mrs. Schwartz did not want her children to collect photographs of her and, given that modesty, her family was reluctant to provide more than one to accompany this article. “Just keep me in your heart,” she used to say. “If you leave a child or grandchild, you live forever.”
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Darth Wong »

Fucking fundies and their cockroach-breeding policies ... their pride makes me sick. They don't realize that future generations will suffer for being so large.

Look, it's great that she survived the Holocaust, and I get the whole "thumb in the eye of the Nazis" thing, but the human race can't keep exploding in size like this. It's insanity.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by spaceviking »

While clearly it would be sustainable for every family to be as prolific as hers… She lives in a country where the birth rate is at or below replacement level. The U.S is not the best example for the west (with their relatively high birth rate for an industrialized country), but in the first world we need more babies not less.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by eion »

spaceviking wrote:While clearly it would be sustainable for every family to be as prolific as hers… She lives in a country where the birth rate is at or below replacement level. The U.S is not the best example for the west (with their relatively high birth rate for an industrialized country), but in the first world we need more babies not less.
Doesn't mean we have to actually have them though to increase our infant population.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Jesus, someone tell the women of this family that a vagina is not a fucking clown car.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by ZGundam »

You mean the one that has her own show and wants to have #20 soon?
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Phantasee »

ZGundam wrote:You mean the one that has her own show and wants to have #20 soon?
I don't think the Duggars are related to this woman.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Liberty »

Phantasee wrote:
ZGundam wrote:You mean the one that has her own show and wants to have #20 soon?
I don't think the Duggars are related to this woman.
Right. This woman was a Hasidic Jew living in the United States. Hasidic Jews, I am told, believe that when women have children it is a form of worship of God, their duty to him.

The Duggars are Christians living in Arkansas. They are fundamentalists and are part of the quiverfull movement. They believe that all birth control is wrong, including natural family planning. In other words, once you're married, you should just have sex as you please and then raise the children God gives you. Even if there are a fucking lot of them. And actually, she just had baby number 19. Quiverfull families aren't usually that big, the more often are in the eight to fourteen range. And they specifically say they are trying to raise up an army for God and outpopulate the Muslims.

My parents had twelve for similar reasons, but they weren't officially part of the quiverfull movement. And actually, they used birth control. I shudder to think how many siblings I would have if they hadn't!
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by General Zod »

Liberty Ferall wrote:[ Quiverfull families aren't usually that big, the more often are in the eight to fourteen range.
:wtf: Eight to fourteen kids isn't big by . . . what standards again?
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Liberty »

General Zod wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:[ Quiverfull families aren't usually that big, the more often are in the eight to fourteen range.
:wtf: Eight to fourteen kids isn't big by . . . what standards again?
Haha, I sometimes forget that emphasis doesn't always come across in internet posts. :oops: I meant that they aren't usually as big as the Duggars - 19 kids and counting - not that they aren't big. Make sense? Sorry about that. I should be more careful. :lol:
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

My parents only had 5 children (of which I am the eldest), and people looked at us like we were crazy. I couldn't even imagine a family of 21. lol

However, if these people want to have a lot of children, I don't really see a problem with it. Its hardly like the US or Europe are massively overpopulated. After all, someone's got to keep the lazy and decadent Western world competitive with the unrestrained hordes of the China and India, right? :lol:
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Samuel »

Or you could just let foreigners immigrate to your country. I don't see why a drop in birth rates is considered bad- as long as you can assimilate them fast enough there shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I don't think someone should ever have more than one child under the age of 15 - 17 per adult at a time (or, two in a normal nonpolyfidelitous family). That means starting fairly early like Liberty, you could probably have four children within a woman's reasonable period of fertility. It's just too much to raise healthy, well-adjusted children when they outnumber you at an age where they're still children. By the time they reach 15, they should be clearly adjusted enough that the majority of attention can be focused on more children, but that would need to be a careful decision in the context of reproductive health and finances and life expectancies. If everyone followed that principle, we'd certainly be very close to replacement rate without, I think, being an unreasonable restriction on the number of children one has. And it's a lot harder to raise children these days than when we were just worried about making them farm workers. An enormous amount of effort has to go into nurturing them into being healthy in modern society, which requires a vastly larger amount of education to be successful in.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Balrog »

Samuel wrote:Or you could just let foreigners immigrate to your country. I don't see why a drop in birth rates is considered bad- as long as you can assimilate them fast enough there shouldn't be a problem.
But Samuel, you would be letting in brown people foreigners into the country! We can't be having that now can we?

On a more serious note, is it really that bad for her to have had that many descendants, in terms of fundamentalist values passing on? After all, it seems to be Christians and Muslims who are more militant in imposing their beliefs on others, I don't recall any big Jewish movements to make gay marriage or abortions illegal.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

Or you could just let foreigners immigrate to your country. I don't see why a drop in birth rates is considered bad- as long as you can assimilate them fast enough there shouldn't be a problem.
I'd be careful with that mentality. If you let too many immigrants in and you don't produce enough of your own to compensate, the foreigners might very well end up assimilating you.

If you don't care, that's fine. However, if that is the case, you have kind of forfeited your right to bitch about things like the "Islamization" of Europe. I've noticed that a lot of people tend to want to "have their cake and eat it to" where such matters are concerned. :roll:
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Starglider »

The main reason for not having double-digit numbers of children is not population growth, as others have pointed out this is not an issue in first-world nations, it is that the parents can't possibly give all the children the time and attention they deserve.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by ray245 »

PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:
Or you could just let foreigners immigrate to your country. I don't see why a drop in birth rates is considered bad- as long as you can assimilate them fast enough there shouldn't be a problem.
I'd be careful with that mentality. If you let too many immigrants in and you don't produce enough of your own to compensate, the foreigners might very well end up assimilating you.
I don't think that this necessarily a bad thing.
If you don't care, that's fine. However, if that is the case, you have kind of forfeited your right to bitch about things like the "Islamization" of Europe. I've noticed that a lot of people tend to want to "have their cake and eat it to" where such matters are concerned. :roll:
I think that has more to do the conservative nature of Islam than anything else. If modern Islam is not that conservative, and its followers are less strict about the rules they have to follow, I don't think that Europeans will say anything about the islamization of Europe. We don't see anyone bitching about buddishim in Europe.

Additionally, I don't think anyone is forgetting the fact that there is a need to assimilate the migrants.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

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Them ultra-orthodox Jews breed like rabbits (rabbis?).
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by hongi »

Balrog wrote: On a more serious note, is it really that bad for her to have had that many descendants, in terms of fundamentalist values passing on? After all, it seems to be Christians and Muslims who are more militant in imposing their beliefs on others, I don't recall any big Jewish movements to make gay marriage or abortions illegal.
They're devoutly opposed to gay marriage, let alone gay rights in general. They're not anti-abortion because Judaism isn't as anti-abortion as Christianity. Jewish fundementalists get lesser notice because they're extremely segregated and insular, to the extent that people who try to leave that community have massive difficulty functioning in the wider world.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I have to admit, concerns about loving all my kids aside there's a part of this that I admire. Dying of old age, at the end of a long life, in my own bed and surrounded by hundreds (or thousands) of my descendants.

It seems kinda nice. Then reality fucks it up, unfortunately.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

When my mother's side of the family has the big five-year family reunions, the people number in the hundreds - I think around 350-400 people. But this including all of the siblings of my grandmother and all of THEIR descendants.

To imagine that an individual could claim so many descendants before their death is all the more mind-boggling to someone like me who considers their extended family to be crazy-big, because now I see what crazy-big really is like.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Hillary »

PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:
I'd be careful with that mentality. If you let too many immigrants in and you don't produce enough of your own to compensate, the foreigners might very well end up assimilating you.

If you don't care, that's fine. However, if that is the case, you have kind of forfeited your right to bitch about things like the "Islamization" of Europe. I've noticed that a lot of people tend to want to "have their cake and eat it to" where such matters are concerned. :roll:
I have yet to meet anyone who holds both these viewpoints. Anti-immigration and Islamophobia tend to go hand in hand and are opinions usually held by ignorant, right-wing morons. Your use of the term "assimilating" (hint, foreigners are not the fucking Borg) suggests you may number amongst that particular group of fucknuggets.

I have always been amused by Europeans bitching about this apparent take-over attempt by Islamists. It's not like Europeans have ever tried to force their culture on to anyone else, is it. :roll:
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by UnderAGreySky »

The better life becomes, the less they breed - or so I thought. It certainly bears out for my family (all from India):

Paternal grandmother: one of two (mother died early)
Paternal grandfather: one of eight (four boys, four girls)
Maternal grandmother: one of seven (one girl, six boys)
Maternal grandfather: one of thirteen (three boys, TEN girls - four of whom never married, three of whom never had kids... funny family)

Mom: One of three (eldest with two brothers)
Dad: One of two (with an elder sister)

Me: one of three.

None of my uncles and aunts have more than three kids now, with two as the norm. Both of my sisters have had one kid each, both want a second child but are planning to adopt instead of have their own.

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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by Liberty »

UnderAGreySky wrote:The better life becomes, the less they breed - or so I thought. It certainly bears out for my family (all from India):

Paternal grandmother: one of two (mother died early)
Paternal grandfather: one of eight (four boys, four girls)
Maternal grandmother: one of seven (one girl, six boys)
Maternal grandfather: one of thirteen (three boys, TEN girls - four of whom never married, three of whom never had kids... funny family)

Mom: One of three (eldest with two brothers)
Dad: One of two (with an elder sister)

Me: one of three.

None of my uncles and aunts have more than three kids now, with two as the norm. Both of my sisters have had one kid each, both want a second child but are planning to adopt instead of have their own.

The times, they are a-changing. Both back home, and out there...
You know, I've heard a lot of people say things like, "well, my grandparents had ten kids, but none of those kids have had more than three." I think you're right that the trend is to have less kids when you come to a first world country, but I think that in this case this was offset by fundamentalist beliefs. That woman had 15 kids and 200 grandkids, meaning her kids had over ten kids on average.
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Re: Hasidic Jew has over 2000 descendants at her death

Post by UnderAGreySky »

That's what I meant by my last line... When you go from low to high class (for want of a better word) the outlook on children and such changes. On the other hand, this does not apply to fundies, because the very idea of moving up the ladder the hard way indicates some rationality in life.
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