Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Link to WashPo
A modest proposal to the federal government: Let Utah do it

By Michael G. Waddoups and David Clark
Friday, February 19, 2010
We propose a modest experiment. As Utah state leaders, we are greatly concerned about the unprecedented expansion of the federal government over many years, and the enormous debt levels being left to our children and grandchildren.

We believe the federal government is attempting to do far more than it has the capacity to execute well. Congress has inserted itself into every aspect of our lives with laws and regulations that don't fit the widely divergent nature of the states and localities. The job descriptions assumed by President Obama and Congress have grown far larger than their ability to deliver.

We'd like to relieve some of their burden.

We don't believe that 535 members of Congress and the president can educate our children, provide health care, pave our roads and protect our environment as well as the nation's 8,000 state legislators and tens of thousands of local officials.

So please, let us help. Let's select a few programs -- say, education, transportation and Medicaid -- that are managed mostly by Utah's government, but with significant federal dollars and a plethora of onerous federal interventions and regulations.



Let Utah take over these programs entirely. But let us keep in our state the portion of federal taxes Utah residents pay for these programs. The amount would not be difficult to determine. Rather than send this money through the federal bureaucracy, we would retain it and would take full responsibility for education, transportation and Medicaid -- minus all federal oversight and regulation.

We recognize that, financially, this is not the best deal for Utah. We would not receive our share of debt revenue used in these programs, and Utah taxpayers would continue to pay our share of the interest on the national debt used for these programs in other states.

Even so, we believe we can operate these programs more efficiently and productively without federal strings and mandates.

Utah is a small state, and this experiment in the interest of balanced federalism would have little impact on the federal budget, on other programs or on other states.

If it works, perhaps other states would choose to opt out of federal programs and retain the federal tax dollars paying for them. This could eventually relieve Washington of massive obligations while also restoring a better balance in the federal system.

We suggest this experiment not from a partisan or ideological perspective but because this approach is the best governance model for the 21st century.

Thanks to enormous advances in networking and communications, the Founders' vision of balanced federalism can operate better than ever. We support a forward-looking, high-tech, progressive approach to governance that fosters innovation and empowerment.

We recognize the need for a strong federal government and fully support federal primacy in certain areas. We recognize that some federal standards must be established, with maximum state flexibility in meeting those standards.

But today the federal government operates like an old-fashioned mainframe computer, pushing one-size-fits-all mandates out to the states. We believe there is value in intelligent decentralization. In our complex society, commerce, environmental challenges and myriad other regulatory matters regularly cross state lines. States have the technological capabilities to collaborate on shared challenges, operating like powerful computers on the Internet, linked together to establish standards and adopting best practices and innovations that improve performance. We can have 8,000 state legislators and thousands more state and local government leaders addressing the nation's problems instead of 535 lawmakers worried more about reelection than about the nation's most daunting challenges.

Devolution is part of the solution to the seemingly intractable problems in our nation. Certainly, states face some serious budget problems and challenges. And some states won't perform as well as others. But states will learn from each other and voters will demand better performance from governments close to home than they expect from Washington.

It would be far better for a state or two to fail than for the entire country to be burdened to the point of economic disaster by a mountain of debt and federal irresponsibility.

Justice Louis Brandeis said that states were designed to be laboratories of democracy. So let's start with one state and a few programs and see what happens.

Michael G. Waddoups is president of the Utah Senate. David Clark is speaker of the Utah House of Representatives. Both are Republicans
So if I have this right. The State of Utah takes over:
Education.
Transportation and
Healthcare.

And then keeps all taxes to help pay for it all...

On the one hand you have to give them credit. They see a problem, and they propose a bold solution! In other places this works to a limited degree. Mass is doing quite nicely with its own health insurance. California for a while has done things against the Federal Government.

But on the other hand, just how FAST could you see this sliding into a Theocracy? which Utah is already barely a step away from ?
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Thanas »

If it helps you to learn the difference between secession and succession, I am all for it. :P
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Oh Gods dammit, can a Mod fix that?
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by RedImperator »

I wouldn't sweat the spelling when you obviously don't even know the definition.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Aaron »

This doesn't appear to have anything to do with leaving the Union but more to do with what we call "transfer payments" in Canada. The Feds give the Provinces money and they use it to run healthcare, education and a host of other things. It works here relatively well. I don't see why it wouldn't in the US.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Cpl Kendall wrote:This doesn't appear to have anything to do with leaving the Union but more to do with what we call "transfer payments" in Canada. The Feds give the Provinces money and they use it to run healthcare, education and a host of other things. It works here relatively well. I don't see why it wouldn't in the US.

Because then they would be free from any and all federal regulations on healthcare, education etc.

For example, sex ed would just be gone, and would instead be replaced with readings from the collective works of Joseph Smith.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Aaron »

Unless the Feds allow them to do so, then they wouldn't be, correct? It's not like BC has widely different teachings then Newfoundland. I get that Utah might (or would, I don't know much about the State) want to replace things wholesale with Mormanism but as long as the Feds lay down what they must cover.

I hope I got my point across, because I think I was just babbling.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Themightytom »

That would cause a cluster fuck in higher education. They'd have to meed national accreditation standards for their students to transfer in and out of other state's schools, so good luck evading THOSE regulations, but at the same time they'd need to manage their own student loan program.

How do they not pave their own roads? My understanding is that's a state or local responsibility, NH has tollbooths every thirty feet to pay for ongoing highway repairs.

Also how is Utah small???

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by SCRawl »

Themightytom wrote:Also how is Utah small???
It's small in terms of population -- fewer than 3 million people as of last year, the 34th most populous state.

Anyways, yeah, given the crazy shit I've seen coming out of their elected officials, giving Utah effective autonomy sounds like a really bad idea to me.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Unless the Feds allow them to do so, then they wouldn't be, correct? It's not like BC has widely different teachings then Newfoundland. I get that Utah might (or would, I don't know much about the State) want to replace things wholesale with Mormanism but as long as the Feds lay down what they must cover.

I hope I got my point across, because I think I was just babbling.
To a large degree, those things are predicated on accepting federal funds. If they are just keeping the money they would otherwise be paying in taxes, they are not subject to federal regulations that do not directly deal with interstate trade.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Aaron »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
To a large degree, those things are predicated on accepting federal funds. If they are just keeping the money they would otherwise be paying in taxes, they are not subject to federal regulations that do not directly deal with interstate trade.
Ahh, I understand now.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Phantasee »

Jesus Christ, what the hell is a state with 3 million people doing with 8 000 state legislators?
XXXI
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Liberty »

Phantasee wrote:Jesus Christ, what the hell is a state with 3 million people doing with 8 000 state legislators?
When they said 8,000, they meant in the whole country, not just Utah.
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Mayabird
Storytime!
Posts: 5970
Joined: 2003-11-26 04:31pm
Location: IA > GA

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Mayabird »

Ugh...things titled "A Modest Proposal" or variations thereof should be satires told with a straight face, possibly but not necessarily involving eating babies. Either my satire-detector has been broken for a while or people didn't get the point of anything Jonathan Swift wrote.

Anyway on the state funds thing, some states just forgo the federal funds so they can do whatever they want, like New Hampshire and its lack of seat belt laws (unless they changed that).
DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!

SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by eion »

Mayabird wrote:Either my satire-detector has been broken for a while or people didn't get the point of anything Jonathan Swift wrote.
You have to have read Jonathan Swift to actually get or not get the point of his writings. Absorbing the title through osmosis tells you nothing about the work's content.

Maybe I shouldn't assume that the brain-dead theocrats who wrote this even know who Jonathan Swift is?
User avatar
ShadowDragon8685
Village Idiot
Posts: 1183
Joined: 2010-02-17 12:44pm

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

I can't imagine any state south or west of of New York it pulling this off without it turning into a complete and total catastrofuck.

No, not even California.

But then, I'm also one of those people who fully believe that most states are deeply incompetant in the matters of managing themselves and I'm in favor of breaking much of the States' powers (not to mention the bullshit idea that an administrative district has 'rights' unto itself), so I'm hardly unbiased.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Dude...

Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
I am an artist, metaphorical mind-fucks are my medium.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Knife »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Unless the Feds allow them to do so, then they wouldn't be, correct? It's not like BC has widely different teachings then Newfoundland. I get that Utah might (or would, I don't know much about the State) want to replace things wholesale with Mormanism but as long as the Feds lay down what they must cover.

I hope I got my point across, because I think I was just babbling.
What you describe is how it works now. The fed gives grants to the states as long as they observe certain criteria. What Utah wants is to take the money with no strings attached, and it won't fly. Even if those corrupt fucks (ethical reform is always being pushed and never accepted in the Utah Leg) pass it, the Feds are under no obligations to accept it. Worst case is Utah just won't get the fed's funds and we're already in a shithole of deficit in our budgets. The Utah Legislative likes to say how well balanced our budget is, but it's because they keep cutting the budget. We've gotten to the point where people are actually screaming at the legislature to raise taxes; normal run of the mill people in the reddest state in the Union are screaming at the State Government to raise their taxes so that the schools can run, all the while a dipshit Senator wants to cut out 12th grade to save money and not raise taxes.

I think, at least locally, the Republicans main plank of cut taxes and spend less in Government has reached it's upper limit and people are beginning to see that.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Slacker
Jedi Knight
Posts: 807
Joined: 2003-01-16 03:14am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Slacker »

You know, from a Federal perspective, I really have a hard time not chortling with glee and telling them to go have fun...Utah, I'm sure, is one of those red states that has the unfortunate tendency of accepting more in Federal aid than it pays back in taxes. I'm fine with those chuckleheads all going their own way and allowing more of New York's money to be spent...in New York.
"I'm sorry, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that your inability to use the brain evolution granted you is any of my fucking concern."
"You. Stupid. Shit." Victor desperately wished he knew enough Japanese to curse properly. "Davions take alot of killing." -Grave Covenant
Founder of the Cult of Weber
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

We've gotten to the point where people are actually screaming at the legislature to raise taxes; normal run of the mill people in the reddest state in the Union are screaming at the State Government to raise their taxes so that the schools can run, all the while a dipshit Senator wants to cut out 12th grade to save money and not raise taxes.
You have a source for this? I am flabbergasted that someone would ever suggest that. Let me guess, he wants to stop paying graduate students to teach undergrads in the universities as well?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Knife »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
We've gotten to the point where people are actually screaming at the legislature to raise taxes; normal run of the mill people in the reddest state in the Union are screaming at the State Government to raise their taxes so that the schools can run, all the while a dipshit Senator wants to cut out 12th grade to save money and not raise taxes.
You have a source for this? I am flabbergasted that someone would ever suggest that. Let me guess, he wants to stop paying graduate students to teach undergrads in the universities as well?

The elimination of 12th grade? Sure,

KSL.com
KSL.com wrote:SALT LAKE CITY -- Utah Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan, is getting a lot of attention for his proposal to save the state money by getting rid of the 12th grade.

Appearing Tuesday morning on CNN, Buttars was asked about how he came up with the idea -- and why it will not hurt students who are already motivated in their education.

"And then you have two groups of kids in classes: those who are really motivated and already have one foot in college, and those who are just goofing off," Buttars said. "And if you talk to a hundred kids you'll hear over and over that, ‘I took three P.E. classes and two art classes.' That's not the way to spend the public's money."

The Utah State Commissioner of Higher Education William Sederburg says while he respects Buttars' view, graduation requirements should be made more stringent so students are required to take tougher classes in their senior year.

"We need a full four years of mathematics, four full years of English. We're just seeing too many students coming into college not prepared to be successful," Sederburg said.

Buttars says his bill would save the state $120 million a year. It is now being debated in the Senate.
As for the taxes,

Desert News
Deseret News wrote:SALT LAKE CITY — Utahns want lawmakers to balance a $700 million budget shortfall by both cutting state programs and raising taxes or fees, a new Deseret News/KSL-TV poll shows.

And Utahns greatly favor raising the tobacco and alcohol taxes, finds the survey conducted by Dan Jones & Associates.

Eighty percent of Utahns favor increasing both those taxes, Jones found.

House Majority Leader Kevin Garn, R-Layton, says "when the Senate is ready" he believes a bill now before the House that would increase tobacco taxes will be passed. He doesn't see any alcohol tax increase coming. An increase in state-controlled alcohol "is not in the mix" of revenue enhancements the majority Republicans are considering, he said.

Jones found that 57 percent of Utahns favor balancing the budget with a combination of tax/fee increases and program cuts. Twenty-four percent said just cut state budgets by an additional 5 percent or more. Twelve percent said only raise taxes, Jones found in a survey conducted last week.

Sen. Lyle Hillyard, R-Logan, the Senate budget chairman, said as senators see the serious impacts of only cutting budgets to balance the budget, there will be "both cuts and tax increases, although it will be more cuts than increases."
Keep in mind that while the alcohol tax and tobacco tax are what the legislature is looking at, the poll says the people are willing to raise taxes. 57% favor a combo of increased taxes and spending cuts and 12% more just want increased taxes. That's a lot of consensus for a Red state on increased taxes.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Nephtys »

There's your problem. Utah lets kids pick 2 art classes and 3 PE classes as their senior year. Either that, or Senator Moron (R-Utah) is just plain wrong. I wonder how much of this proposal is really due to the massive amount of homeschooling that goes on in Utah. Something which, as a tangent, I've never seen work out well. Those kids lose a damned lot.
User avatar
The Spartan
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4406
Joined: 2005-03-12 05:56pm
Location: Houston

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by The Spartan »

Nephtys wrote:Either that, or Senator Moron (R-Utah) is just plain wrong.
He might not be. My senior year of high school had one required course: Senior English. Every other course I was in was optional because all required courses were already taken care of. It turns out they were mostly useful courses, but optional nonetheless.

If you're curious I took Pre-Calculus, Drafting, Physics II, Computer Science (typing and MS Office, basically), English and Football.
The Gentleman from Texas abstains. Discourteously.
Image
PRFYNAFBTFC-Vice Admiral: MFS Masturbating Walrus :: Omine subtilite Odobenus rosmarus masturbari
Soy un perdedor.
"WHO POOPED IN A NORMAL ROOM?!"-Commander William T. Riker
User avatar
Dave
Jedi Knight
Posts: 901
Joined: 2004-02-06 11:55pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Utah discusses "A modest proposal" aka succession

Post by Dave »

The Spartan wrote:He might not be. My senior year of high school had one required course: Senior English. Every other course I was in was optional because all required courses were already taken care of. It turns out they were mostly useful courses, but optional nonetheless.
Same here. We were required 4 years of English, three of Math, three of Science, and a few others (3 semesters of PE, one of health, 2 years foreign language and so forth.)

If you went to summer school or shoehorned a debate class into an English credit or something it was pretty easy to get out in 3 years.
Post Reply