Political landslide in Belgian elections

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
wautd
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7595
Joined: 2004-02-11 10:11am
Location: Intensive care

Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by wautd »

BBC

While I don't agree with some of the analyses in the article, it's the first decent english link I could find.
Belgium's Flemish separatists make big election gains

Belgium's Flemish separatist party, the New Flemish Alliance (NVA), has emerged as the largest force in parliament, near-complete election results show.

The NVA took 27 seats in the 150-member assembly, bringing the country closer to a split.

The party, led by Bart De Wever, wants to more fully divide the country between Dutch-speaking Flanders and French-speaking Wallonia.

But the NVA would have to form a coalition with Wallonian parties.

Some analysts believe the next government will take in as many as eight parties, the BBC's Dominic Hughes in Brussels reports.

Such a coalition might force NVA Mr De Wever to tone down his Flemish nationalist rhetoric.

"The NVA has won the election today," he told his supporters after Sunday's poll, in which his party increased its representation in the lower house of parliament by 19 seats.

The French-speaking Socialists are expected to gain six seats for a total of 26.

The result would be a significant loss for Premier Yves Leterme's coalition of Christian Democrats, Liberals and Socialists.

His government collapsed in April over a long-standing dispute about voting rights for Dutch-speakers around Brussels and the election was brought forward by one year.

Separate lives

A split bringing an end to Belgium would not happen immediately.

Belgian governments are required to be made up of a bi-lingual coalition of at least four parties.

Much of public and political life in Belgium is dominated by bitter debates around language and the allocation of public resources.

Government aid to poorer Wallonia, home to four million French speakers, has caused resentment among Belgium's 6.5 million Flemish majority, correspondents say.

Until now separatist parties have been on the fringes of political debate.

But Mr De Wever, 39, has pushed his party into the mainstream over the last three years while the other parties have been locked in a political stalemate.

The country also faces economic problems, and some analysts say that Belgium can not afford a long period of uncertainty.

During the last three years the national debt has grown to unmanageable proportions.

The country's ratio of debt to gross domestic product is behind only Greece and Italy in the Eurozone, analysts say.

Belgium is also taking on the six-month presidency in the European Union in July.

Normally the EU presidency gives a country a higher international profile. But it may have come along at just the wrong time for Belgium if coalition talks drag on, our correspondent says.
Biggest losers were flemish christian democrats, extreme right and flemish/walloon liberals while there was a historic victory for flemish nationalists in the north and walloon socialists in the south. Lets hope that opposites attract because the flemish voter gave a strong signal that things need to change after 3 years of immobilism.
User avatar
wautd
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7595
Joined: 2004-02-11 10:11am
Location: Intensive care

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by wautd »

The Times words it a bit better
A separatist party was on course to win the most votes in Flanders last night for the first time in a Belgian general election, increasing the prospect that the country will split into the Flemish north and French-speaking south.

The New Flemish Alliance, led by Bart de Wever, 39, was heading for about 29 per cent of the votes in Flanders on a promise to break away from Wallonia and become an independent member of the European Union.

Mr de Wever’s success comes four days after Geert Wilders’s anti-Islamic Freedom Party claimed third place in next-door Netherlands on 15 per cent of the national vote as the economic crisis fuels nationalist fervour.

Both countries will now be plunged into weeks of difficult negotiations to form a workable government coalition from a fragmented patchwork of parties, with potentially disastrous implications for their economies.

The process is even more complex in Belgium, where there are no national parties, with the combined Wallonian and Flemish Socialists likely to be the biggest group. Mr de Wever has said that he would be content to see the Socialist Elio di Rupo become the first French-speaking Prime Minister since 1974, provided that the new government devolved more power to the regions. The Socialists are strongly against the break-up of Belgium.

Claiming victory last night, Mr de Wever told cheering supporters: “The N-VA has won the election. We stand before you with a party that has some 30 per cent (of the Flemish vote).”

Pierre Verjans, a University of Liège political scientist, said that he felt “a sense of mourning going on”. He added: “French-speakers now fear a Belgium without Dutch-speakers.”

Mr de Wever was a marginal figure at the 2007 Belgian election, but support grew for his separatist message out of frustration at the paralysed system of pan-Belgian politics when it took nine months to form a shaky five-party coalition.

Many Flemish voters are also increasingly frustrated at having to subsidise social security bills in the poorer, French-speaking south, where the collapse of traditional industry has led to much higher unemployment than in the north. The unhappy marriage of the parsimonious Germanic north and spendthrift Latin south is often cited as a microcosm for the centrifugal forces undermining the EU’s own response to the financial crisis.

Another nail was driven into the coffin of the political system when the last Government fell after failing to redraw Flemish and French-speaking electoral boundaries — an arcane row compared to the urgent need to address the burgeoning national debt.

Belgium was created in 1830 and is made up of 6.5 million Dutch speakers and 4 million French speakers. The two communities have become increasingly suspicious of each other, and each have their own political parties, television stations and newspapers.

Mr de Wever has made Flemish nationalism respectable by advocating a gradual process of independence for Flanders, rather than the revolution preached by the ultra-nationalist Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest), which gained about 12.5 per cent of the votes in Flanders, down 6.6 points on 2007. But he has also taken thousands of votes from the centre-right Flemish Christian Democrats, who led the last lacklustre administration.
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

That article contains numerous errors.

1) De Wever didn't get that percent of the vote on a promise to break away from Wallonia and become an independent member of the European Union - he promised a gradual evolution towards an independent Flanders in a united Europe. His immediate goal is a confederal Belgium, and it is this confederal Belgium that is appealing to a great many voters. When investigated, it's clear that most of the N-VA voters aren't separatists.

2) The comparison to Wilders is completely wild. Wilders is a far right politician. De Wever is a centrist separatist whose party is a member of a progressive party at the European level.

3) De Wever was not a 'marginal figure' in the 2007 elections.

4) The dispute concerning electoral boundaries renders yesterday's elections unconstitutional. I would argue that given that all federal elections being unconstitutional until this issue is resolved, this is not an 'arcane row'.
User avatar
Jeremy
Jedi Master
Posts: 1132
Joined: 2003-04-30 06:47pm
Location: Hyrule

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Jeremy »

Does the NVA favor a union with the Netherlands?

How did Vlaams Belang do? Are they supposed to be the far right party that you said lost out?
• Only the dead have seen the end of war.
• "The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell." ~ Ilya Muromets
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Wautd, can you explain to an American what a "Christian Democrat" is, since to us it is a bit of a contradiction? Also ""extreme right and flemish/walloon liberals"" Was that meant to be "Extreme right" and "flemish/walloon liberals" ?
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

Jeremy wrote:Does the NVA favor a union with the Netherlands?
In the N-VA's view, the only levels of government required (above local government) are Flanders and the European Union. It does not seek a union with the Netherlands.
How did Vlaams Belang do? Are they supposed to be the far right party that you said lost out?
Vlaams Belang lost 4 seats in the Chamber of Representatives and 2 seats in the Senate. It is down to respectively 12 and 3 seats there.
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Wautd, can you explain to an American what a "Christian Democrat" is, since to us it is a bit of a contradiction?
I haven't the faintest idea why it would form a contradiction. A Christian democrat is, in the Belgian context, an economic centrist and social conservative. From the American perspective, they are socially progressive and economically leftist.
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Wautd, can you explain to an American what a "Christian Democrat" is, since to us it is a bit of a contradiction?
It's a usual name for European parties which declare themselves as pursuing democratic and christian values to distinguish themselves from liberal/socialist parties which are usually openly atheistic. Since both Democrats and Republicans in US are big on christian values, prayer, God bless america and all that it would be superfluous to specifically declare themselves as "christian".
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

Even the Christian Democrats are generally secular. Religion doesn't play a big part in it - it's mostly about those traditional, Christian values like solidarity, marriage, support for life, et cetera. This means they're generally for a welfare state, oppose adoption by homosexuals, oppose euthanasia, et cetera.
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Crossroads Inc. wrote:Wautd, can you explain to an American what a "Christian Democrat" is, since to us it is a bit of a contradiction?
It's a usual name for European parties which declare themselves as pursuing democratic and christian values to distinguish themselves from liberal/socialist parties which are usually openly atheistic. Since both Democrats and Republicans in US are big on christian values, prayer, God bless america and all that it would be superfluous to specifically declare themselves as "christian".
Thank you, I didn't know there were actually political parties that are openly atheist. Something like that just seems so unthinkable in the states, but it does explain why a party would specify itself as 'Christian' however.

I guess it is one more example how someone that seems "liberal" to the US would still be tossed out in election for being too conservative in Europe.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

I don't think any parties in Belgium are openly atheist. I know of a couple of politicians who are openly atheist, but even those don't generally publicize it. One's religious affiliation, whether that is Christian Democrat, Socialist or Liberal, is perceived as utterly irrelevant to one's political position.
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Yeah that was bad wording on my part. I didn't mean that they actually declare themselves as atheistic as some sort of selling point in the elections, even Europe is not that liberal. But basically through their declared goals and policies they implicitly make it clear that "christian values" aren't an issue to them unless they are forced to make a deal with a coalition partner.
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Coyote »

It's something I always wondered as well, because despite how much we let religion interfere with decision-making, a party openly calling itself "the Christian Party" would be a non-starter except for a few whackos. (Give it time, maybe, there's still the teabaggers).

Europeans here have at times prided their systems of being less influenced by religion, but there are a lot of "Christian ---" parties over there, which I always found odd.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
wautd
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7595
Joined: 2004-02-11 10:11am
Location: Intensive care

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by wautd »

Zed wrote:That article contains numerous errors.

1) De Wever didn't get that percent of the vote on a promise to break away from Wallonia and become an independent member of the European Union - he promised a gradual evolution towards an independent Flanders in a united Europe. His immediate goal is a confederal Belgium, and it is this confederal Belgium that is appealing to a great many voters. When investigated, it's clear that most of the N-VA voters aren't separatists.

2) The comparison to Wilders is completely wild. Wilders is a far right politician. De Wever is a centrist separatist whose party is a member of a progressive party at the European level.

3) De Wever was not a 'marginal figure' in the 2007 elections.

4) The dispute concerning electoral boundaries renders yesterday's elections unconstitutional. I would argue that given that all federal elections being unconstitutional until this issue is resolved, this is not an 'arcane row'.
I agree completely with you.

and to add

5) NVA is a strong pro-european party. I guess the BBC didn't noticed those EU-flags on the background or in the public
Jeremy wrote:Does the NVA favor a union with the Netherlands?

How did Vlaams Belang do? Are they supposed to be the far right party that you said lost out?
Yup, they lost around 6-7%, hovering around 12% now. NVA sucked in a lot of moderate right voters who previously had to go to the VB by lack of an alternative.

Zed covered the christian democrats thing
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

wautd wrote:5) NVA is a strong pro-european party. I guess the BBC didn't noticed those EU-flags on the background or in the public
Yes - that was quite remarkable. Whereas in previous years, the New Flemish Alliance would have displayed multiple flags of the Flemish Lion, those were curiously absent (except for those carried by the militants). The only Flemish lion visible was one that had displaced a single star on a European flag.
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Coyote »

This brings up what seems to me to be an odd trend across Europe relatively recently.

Czechoslovakia broke into two different republics based on ethnicities; Yugoslavia did it as well albeit more violently. There's the push to devolve power in the UK, where Scotland has its own government now, Wales has "Home Rule" I think it is called and I guess Cornwall is pushing for the same. I've long heard of the Wallonian and Flemish situation, and we all know how the Basque have been...

What is the deal with Europe fracturing into smaller and smaller countries based on ethnic enclaves? It seems kind of like a throwback to tribal ways of thinking, to me at least. Aren't groups getting a better deal by staying together? Doesn't it make funding more expensive? It seems that a national health care or police or rail system with millions of people cashing into the pot will be cheaper than all the same things broken down into little statelets with a few hundred thousand people apiece.

It seems that at some point, Europe will have to have EU-wide public services just to get decent economies of scale. And what about power grids and other things that physically cross the lines of increasingly smaller states?

It doesn't make sense. The EU will have to federate or die, and that means picking a standing government and ministries and language.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

It actually makes quite a bit of sense, from the perspective of these nationalists: they believe that it is precisely a federalizing Europe which will allow them to function as an autonomous region without a need for entities that are larger than Flanders but smaller than the E.U. like 'Belgium'. This is also the vision of Barroso, by the way: a federal Europe of regions, where the current nation states effectively become meaningless. Large scale social and economic needs need to be handled on a European level, whereas nation states are too big to deal with the smaller economic needs.
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Phantasee »

What are the downsides to this way of doing things? It seems pretty win-win for the people of the small regions and for the EU as a whole.
XXXI
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

The downside is probably that not every country enjoys the prospects of a federal Europe. (Consider, for instance, the Brits.)
User avatar
Jeremy
Jedi Master
Posts: 1132
Joined: 2003-04-30 06:47pm
Location: Hyrule

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Jeremy »

This is less about tribal jingoism and more about self rule, and self preservation within the context of a peaceful world.

The last time I read about them I liked the Vlaams Belang platform but the diversity of right wing parties was badly needed. Britain doesn't seem to have a middle ground between the Conservatives and the BNP, if it did the BNP's shrinking numbers evaporate.

Imagine if the only option for American right wing politics were "Rockefeller Republicans" and the Constitution Party (think the Tea Party movement is bad?). The "coalition" or "big tent" of the Republican party leaves a lot of right wing people unsatisfied but in a powerful position. Fracture that and the various groups can be happy in their niches and most likely ineffectual for a few campaigns--until it re-consolidates.
• Only the dead have seen the end of war.
• "The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell." ~ Ilya Muromets
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

For the record, Vlaams Belang isn't a middle ground party. It is a crypto-fascist party. Its politicians are associated with violence, right wing militias, Blood and Honour, Léon Degrelle and other neo-nazi organizations. It is also a successor to a party that was actually condemned for racism by a federal court, with its politicians saying that the only thing that has changed is the party's name. Vlaams Belang is all about tribal jingoism.


The New Flemish Alliance, on the other hand, is about more than that, even though I don't support it entirely.
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Teebs »

Jeremy wrote:Britain doesn't seem to have a middle ground between the Conservatives and the BNP, if it did the BNP's shrinking numbers evaporate.
UKIP.
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Bounty »

NVA and Vlaams Belang are only comparable insofar as they are pro-Flanders. The former is economically conservative, socially fairly neutral, and runs on what is essentially a positive platform (the strengthening of Flemish-level government and a natural end to Belgium); the latter blames everything on foreigners and criminals and consists mainly of those who think it's a shame you can't shoot Moroccans in the street.

As for the elections, I'm pleased to see the socialists held on, and it's oddly sweet to see Groen celebrating their marginal voter increase especially after their president proved in the debates he couldn't convince an arsonist to strike a match*. De Wever, however, must know at this point that he can either go into the history books as the man who defined the future of the kingdom, or slip into infamy, and that the line between both will be razor-thin. I don't envy him at all.

On the upside, as much as I loathe separatists, De Wever himself is at least an intelligent, down-to-earth, classically read all-round decent guy. As a leader I think he is at the absolute peak of his generation's politicians and probably the best bet to get a real dialogue going with Wallonia. I'm also cautiously optimistic about Di Rupo, as he was fairly quick to say he got the message and was opening lines of communication.

My prognosis: NVA, SP.A, CD&V on the Flemish side and PS-CDH on the Walloon end form Di Rupo I; negotiations are started with a far more determined Flemish side, and after that... who knows. We live in a different country now.

Meanwhile, Alexander De Croo can come to terms with wrecking his dad's party but will somehow survive, Dedecker retires three years after his sell-by date, Dewinter takes back the reigns at Vlaams Belang (which is a shame since Valckeniers seems to be the only person there with an above-double-digit IQ), and sales of little yellow flags with lions on them will soar.
What are the downsides to this way of doing things? It seems pretty win-win for the people of the small regions and for the EU as a whole.
Breaking up countries is like a really messy divorce. It takes skill to avoid getting your clothes thrown onto the streets and nobody can figure out who bought which CD (and by "CD" I mean "government pension plan").
Europeans here have at times prided their systems of being less influenced by religion, but there are a lot of "Christian ---" parties over there, which I always found odd.
It's less odd when it's historic. The days of a Christian party being only open to Christians or identifying itself as such through anything but platitudes on the website are long gone. The current CD&V is open to all religions and their only 'christian' stand points are related to helping the poor.

---

* The leader of the green party lost a debate about green energy to Filip Dewinter, who doesn't even really have an energy policy. It was hilariously tragic.
Zed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-05-19 08:56pm

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Zed »

I found an interesting overview in English of the electoral results here: http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/t ... msg1613103
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Political landslide in Belgian elections

Post by Bounty »

I don't know why Groen even campaigns any more. They're always the inoffensive go-to party to glue a coalition together. It's not like those bleeding-heart hippies will ever vote for anyone else.
Post Reply