A hundred thousand white Israelis rally for segregation

[Einzige]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/10 ... l-1.296746

Dozens of ultra-Orthodox protesters awaited the fathers at the prison, held a prayer and sang songs while the bus entered the prison gates. This after 100,000 ultra-Orthodox demonstrators thronged the Jerusalem streets earlier in the day in support of the Ashkenazi parents' right to keep their children in classes segregated from their Sephardi peers, welcoming the parents as they arrived at the police headquarters. It was one of the largest ultra-Orthodox demonstrations in recent years.

Police commissioner David Cohen said at a police meeting aimed at evaluating the situation that "the ultra-Orthodox public and its leaders have proven, thus far, that it is possible to protest while abiding by the law. I hope that the restraint that we saw today will characterize all of the confrontations between the police and the haredi public, and other groups, of which we've had quite of few lately."

When the parents arrived at the Russian Compound earlier Thursday, one of the fathers said "I am going to jail with great excitement and joy over the support we've received,"

"We are making sure our children get the best education possible," he added.

If they really were "getting the best education possible", they wouldn't be Ultra-Orthodox Jews anymore.

[Spice Runner]

The article says that the Ashkenazi (Read: white European and Russian stock Jewish) parents want their daughters segregated in school from the girls from families of Sephardim or Mid-East and North African descent. In the same breath they claim they are not racists. Am I missing something here?

[General Mung Beans]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world ... ?ref=world

The ultra-Orthodox, who make up about 10 percent of the population, have eight to nine children per family and are growing at a faster rate than their secular counterparts. According to one recent study, 61 percent of Jewish first graders in Jerusalem are now Haredim.

This poses grave economic implications for Israel — most Haredi men prefer full-time Torah study to work — and for the state in its current form.

This trend is rather worrying-how can Israel and Palestine come to terms if there is a plurality of fanatics?

[Cecelia5578]

I've been under the impression that the differences vis a vis Oriental Jews in Israel had been smoothed over as of the last decade or so?
I guess what strikes me as ironic here is that Shas (the party for both Sephardim and Oriental Jewry in Israel) is hardly leftist or liberal.

[fgalkin]

The article says that the Ashkenazi (Read: white European and Russian stock Jewish) parents want their daughters segregated in school from the girls from families of Sephardim or Mid-East and North African descent. In the same breath they claim they are not racists. Am I missing something here?

Because the rest of the world has American-style batshit insane race relations and if it's about race in America, it must be about race everywhere else.

And, of course, because the Israelis are Evil Apartheid Racists.

BBC

The Ashkenazi parents, who are of European descent, want segregated classrooms because they say Sephardi families are not religious enough.

They have pulled their children out of Beit Yaakov girls' school in the West Bank settlement of Immanuel, and set up lessons elsewhere in the area.

The Slonim parents say their objections are based on differences in religious observance between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi traditions.

Yakov Litzman, an MP from the ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi party, United Torah Judaism (UTJ), told army radio there was "not a drop of racism" in the parents' decision.

"There is a set of rules [in the ultra-Orthodox community]. We don't want televisions in the home, there are rules of modesty, we are against the internet," Mr Litzman was quoted as saying by AFP news agency.

"I don't want my daughter to be educated with a girl who has a TV at home."

So, yes, they're utter gits, but not racist gits.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Illuminatus Primus]

Drivel. Ashkenazi and Sephardi are, strictly speaking, ethnic-origin distinctions, not religious ones. "Ashkenazi" and "Sephardi" originally referred to different Jewish rites associated with distinct groupings of Disapora Jews, namely those in Germany-Eastern Europe and Spain, respectively. Since the formation of Israel this has been somewhat simplified and bastardized into a de facto Ashkenazim of all Jews of Europe, and a de facto Sephardim of most of the Jews of Asia and Africa. This is a decidedly areligious and immodest Ashkenazi Jew and contrariwise, a Haredi (i.e., ultra-Orthodox) Sephardic rabbi. Clearly, despite the distinction alluded to in the article, Sephardi can belong to the same overall religious wing, the Haredim, as the Ashkenazim described in the article. Contrariwise, countless Ashkenazim are areligious or at least certainly not Haredim or religious by their standards. Either the article is being simplistic and confusing and is poorly written, or this is a semi-religious bigotry cover for at least partially-ethnic-based bigotry, since its apparently a universal convention that the former is a-okay and the latter is awful (probably due to the enormous cultural hegemony religious residue has in our society). And what is so much better about fanatic religious bigotry and separatism, and its attendant segregationism than it's ethnic counterpart**?

**[Note: I do think that racism/ethnic bigotry is more pernicious than religious bigotry in some sense, since one is typically irrevocably and superficially born and marked permanently and immutably with a racial or ethnic identity by virtue of existing culture and physical appearance. On the other hand, while one is still very quite likely to be born into a religious group and damned for it all the same, it is a much simpler matter to abandon one's religious identity and avoid the most vicious persecution. Still, I think the differences are one of degree, and not kind.]

[SirNitram]

Allow me to shorten this:

Angry White Jews: Throw the Semites out!

(What, you didn't think Semitic meant 'Jewish', did you? No. They just adopted AntiSemiticism as a word to throw.)

[Oskuro]

In the same breath they claim they are not racists. Am I missing something here?

Racism is the discrimination of other ethnicities for no good reason beyond them being different. Apparently these, like all racists, believe their particular reasons are good.

[CJvR]

In the same breath they claim they are not racists. Am I missing something here?

Racism is the discrimination of other ethnicities for no good reason beyond them being different. Apparently these, like all racists, believe their particular reasons are good.

Sounds more like religous friction between the true believers and the heretical scum.

[Oskuro]

It is really irrelevant, they will still claim that they do not discriminate based on religion. My point was that bigots convince themselves that they are not being irrational or unfair, but rather that their reasons for discriminating aganist any group are valid and reasonable, that's why you can get statements like those from them, from their point of view they are not irrational hatemongers.

[Darth Yan]

I think It's race related (there are ultra orthodox Sephardim as well, so the not religious enough is horseshit.) Either way the protesters are a bunch of pricks

[Spice Runner]

The article says that the Ashkenazi (Read: white European and Russian stock Jewish) parents want their daughters segregated in school from the girls from families of Sephardim or Mid-East and North African descent. In the same breath they claim they are not racists. Am I missing something here?

Because the rest of the world has American-style batshit insane race relations and if it's about race in America, it must be about race everywhere else.

And, of course, because the Israelis are Evil Apartheid Racists.

BBC

snip

-fgalkin

Take your sarcasm and and shove it up your ass. No I do not view the entire world through the American tinted view of race relations thank you very much.

I agree these people are utter gits. I admit I jumped to the conclusion that this was racially motivated. These protectors claim that their drive for segregation is purely religiously motivated but they do they single out Sephardic Jews specifically as not being religious enough. I have to ask why?

So doing a little more research it seems there quite some difference in religious, legal and political views between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Haredim. Sephardic Haredim have a long tradition dating back to the times of Islamic rule and thus having more of that influence in their customs and traditions whereas Ashkenazi Haredim did not as they migrated from Europe. In the area of politics the majority Sephardic branch are more moderate towards the concept of zionism whereas Ashkenazi are more supportive of zionism and both affiliate with different political parties as such though both branches are conservative.

There is a lot more which differentiates the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Haredim of course and the situation is more complicated than the article makes it appear to be. That said I still oppose religious segregation as much as I oppose ethnic and any other type of forced segregation.

[Spice Runner]

snip

Correction to the above. I meant to say Sephardic Jews traditions were influenced from their history under Islamic rule in the Iberian peninsula. And these are just a few of the differences between the two groups which include religious custom, language etc..

[Gil Hamilton]

Because the rest of the world has American-style batshit insane race relations and if it's about race in America, it must be about race everywhere else.

And, of course, because the Israelis are Evil Apartheid Racists.

BBC

snip

So, yes, they're utter gits, but not racist gits.

So, these people gather in huge numbers to protest students being in the same school with another racial group, you say they aren't racist because they tried to justify it by saying that that ethnic group as a whole doesn't share their values? Come on, racist bigots do that all the time. Few bigots go "we don't like black people because they are black, we don't like them because <insert some comment about values or an accusation that they are all criminal>". Values is the excuse, but they are saying they wanted to be separate from a group because of discrimination against an ethnic group. The "values" argument is WHY they are discriminating against that ethnic group, but it's racism nonetheless. It just has a relgious angle.

Incidentally. Israel's population is, what, 7.5 million people? If the article is correct that 100,000 people showed up to this thing, that's 1.333% of the total population of the country at that rally. That's like 3 MILLION PEOPLE in the US showing up to a pro-segregation rally, which would be huge. How does that not totally reflect on Israel that that much of the country will show up for a pro-segregation rally? If that percentage of the US showed up to keep black and white children in seperate schools at one rally, it would reflect poorly our country as a whole. Israel is no different.

Note: That population figure includes Israeli Arabs. If we just count Jewish inhabitants, it becomes 2%.

[Coyote]

Rally crowd numbers are always hyper-inflated, even here in the States. I'd take the 100,000 number with a grain of salt. There is, however, the possibility that other religious communities that support the gits were brought in to help inflate numbers; in a country the size of Israel is is easier to bus supports from everywhere since it's just a couple hours away (for the most part).

The religious practices do, in fact, tend to coincide with ethnic lines, so it is easy to see "only" the racial part as the primary motivating factor. Like in the USA, I've long felt that a lot of what we blame on racism is in fact classism because the races and classes frequently happen to be the same-- but that's my opinion.

And, somewhat like fgalkin said-- hoo, boy, it's some Israelis being assholes, so it's a veritable parade of bandwagons to jump on, because as we all know, racism is a purely Israeli phenomenon.

[Gil Hamilton]

Even if the 100,000 is inflated (it might, I don't deny, these tend to be), that's still a damn large amount of Israelis population to go to a pro-segregation rally. However, going "It's not racism, we just disagree with this race/ethnic groups VALUES and thus don't want to be around that ethnic group" is an age old excuse. People rarely say "well, I just don't like the color of his skin", they always try to justify it somehow. In this case, it's weaker than usually. "I don't want my daughter going to school with kids that have a TV!" I mean, really? I didn't know media cooties were airborne. That's more likely an excuse to justify their racism.

[Sarevok]

Israel survives by virtue of jews being some of the brighest and hard working people in the world. But if their own citizens started becoming a jewish version of taliban Israel would be in danger. Such a large number of technology and education shunning folks could be a greater mortal danger to Israels survival than outside enemies. Do these ultra religious people in Israel not realise that ?

[Pelranius]

Israel survives by virtue of jews being some of the brighest and hard working people in the world. But if their own citizens started becoming a jewish version of taliban Israel would be in danger. Such a large number of technology and education shunning folks could be a greater mortal danger to Israels survival than outside enemies. Do these ultra religious people in Israel not realise that ?

It could change if the Haredim decided that college degrees and modern education aren't incompatible with being Jewish. But I wouldn't get my hopes up since apparently the doctors they do use are largely Modern Orthodox, which suggests that Haredim as a whole today aren't interested in modern medicine, which is frightening when I'm pretty sure there are Wahhabi Muslim doctors out there but apparently no Haredim (or very few) doctors.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So, yes, they're utter gits, but not racist gits.

So because they SAY they aren't racist, they must NOT be. Because when in the history of human civilization have racists EVER lied about their motives ...

[Saurencaerthai]

This type bullshit from the Haredim is nothing new. I believe it was last year that they tried to keep several Jewish Ethiopian children out of their publicly funded school. It took the state threatening to pull all financial support to get them to acquiesce.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So what's the consensus from those in-the-know, are the Ashkenazi Haredim crypto-racist, aggressive sectors?

[fgalkin]

Drivel.

So, since there are Ashkenazi Haredim, and Sephardic Haredim, the Sephards in question must be Haredim, and thus the Ashkenazi Haredim are lying, or the article is wrong? Wow, that's quite an argument

So, these people gather in huge numbers to protest students being in the same school with another racial group, you say they aren't racist because they tried to justify it by saying that that ethnic group as a whole doesn't share their values? Come on, racist bigots do that all the time. Few bigots go "we don't like black people because they are black, we don't like them because <insert some comment about values or an accusation that they are all criminal>". Values is the excuse, but they are saying they wanted to be separate from a group because of discrimination against an ethnic group. The "values" argument is WHY they are discriminating against that ethnic group, but it's racism nonetheless. It just has a relgious angle.

You mean, one cannot discriminate purely on the basis of religion, and so it must be veiled racism?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[CJvR]

Israel survives by virtue of jews being some of the brighest and hard working people in the world. But if their own citizens started becoming a jewish version of taliban Israel would be in danger. Such a large number of technology and education shunning folks could be a greater mortal danger to Israels survival than outside enemies. Do these ultra religious people in Israel not realise that ?

Read the old testament, the fundies have always favored the "Howl and charge" method over common sence and reason. So, no, the fundies do not fear increased ignorance and loss of technological edge for GOD is with them and that is all they need. I wonder how long it will take for the more secular elements in Israel to wake up to the danger though. Currently it seems they are more intrested in buying votes from the fanatics than restraining them.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Why the fuck are we having a semantics battle over whether they're crypto-racists or just run of the mill fundamentalist zealots? They're BIGOTS either way, and fucking laughable ones whatever the basis for their reasoning.

[eyl]

Clearly, despite the distinction alluded to in the article, Sephardi can belong to the same overall religious wing, the Haredim, as the Ashkenazim described in the article. Contrariwise, countless Ashkenazim are areligious or at least certainly not Haredim or religious by their standards.

I think It's race related (there are ultra orthodox Sephardim as well, so the not religious enough is horseshit.) Either way the protesters are a bunch of pricks

Your problem is that you're considering the haredim as a single group. The haredim themselves are divided into several groups - the Ashkenazi-Sepharadi divide being the largest division, and some of those groups further are subdivided* - the hassidim, for example, are subdivided into various "courts", based on where that group was originally formed. And these courts can be quite different and even hostile to one another. Case in point - the group of parents in question belong to the Slonim hassidic court, and they're barely willing to associate with other courts. So haredim, they don't necessarily view each other as compatible.

Note that I'm not saying there isn't racism among haredim. In this case, however, it's not that simple - the Slonim are perfectly willing to accept Sepharadim (a number of the parents sent to jail in this case are Sepharadim) so long as they ditch the Sepharadi (and any non-Slonim, for that matter) religious customs.

*To add confusion, one of the more extreme subgroups is itself named Eda Haharedit - the haredi congregation.

What, you didn't think Semitic meant 'Jewish', did you? No. They just adopted AntiSemiticism as a word to throw.

"They"? The term "antisemitism" and it's meaning as "Jew-hatred" weren't coined by Jews in the first place.

It is really irrelevant, they will still claim that they do not discriminate based on religion

What are you talking about, they explicitly say that they discriminate on the basis of religion. Most Ashkenazim probably wouldn't be considered suitable either, for that matter.

Ashkenazi are more supportive of zionism

Actually, the ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi tend to be more anti-Zionist (e.g. the Satmar Hassidim or Neturei Karta)

Even if the 100,000 is inflated (it might, I don't deny, these tend to be), that's still a damn large amount of Israelis population to go to a pro-segregation rally.

Because for the haredim, its become more than just about the segregation in the school.

Many of the haredim have, at best, an uneasy relationship with secular rule, especially Jewish secular rule. In this case, you have someone not only taking the case to a secular court (the Shas party, which might otherwise be expected to support the ruling - indeed, the plaintiff's backer is the son of Ovadia Yosef, Shas' top rabbi - is claiming they object to it on the grounds that it should have been settled in a rabbanical court), but that court (and a religious judge, no less) openly decreed that obedience to secular law should override obedience to the rabbis. In addition, this is just the most recent of several recent Supreme Court rulings (and a few government actions) which they view as anti-haredi; for example, the recent ruling that the income benefits many haredi receive are unlawful, or a couple of recent decisions to allow construction (of an emergency room, in the more famous case, at Barzilai hospital) over haredi objections (they claimed that there were graves at the sites in question, and the objections reached the levels of violent protests) or a number of other affairs.

Which is they reason there's such widepsread haredi support for them - even those who don't care for the issue of the school themselves (or, like Shas, could be expected to support the ruling) object to the court's assertion of primacy.

I don't want my daughter going to school with kids that have a TV!" I mean, really? I didn't know media cooties were airborne. That's more likely an excuse to justify their racism

In these groups, you can get your entire family shunned for having an Internet connection at home.

Do these ultra religious people in Israel not realise that ?

God will provide, don't you know?

Seriously, as far as they're concerned God will take care of everything if they're properly religious (and if they're not, it obviously the fault of those licentious inhabitents of Tel Aviv) - one of their arguments in favor of their effective draft exemption is that it's their study which keeps Israel safe, not the IDF.

It could change if the Haredim decided that college degrees and modern education aren't incompatible with being Jewish. But I wouldn't get my hopes up since apparently the doctors they do use are largely Modern Orthodox, which suggests that Haredim as a whole today aren't interested in modern medicine, which is frightening when I'm pretty sure there are Wahhabi Muslim doctors out there but apparently no Haredim (or very few) doctors.

Well, it depends. As I said, the haredim aren't a homogenous group - some of them have a more modern outlook on life and on participation in the workforce. The problem is that there are a large number which don't want to participate and have ideological (well, religious, but it comes to the same thing) justification for that.

Actually, I find this particularly irritating because to the best of my understanding they're wrong,even under religious rules. Look at the great rabbis of the past, and you'll find that virtually all of them had some form of employment (and not necessarily what we'd call white-collar work, either), and there are a number of injunctions to the effect that study of the Torah should come after you have a livelyhood. This phenomenon of a large group dedicated to study instead of work is largely aproduct of the last couple of centuries, as I understand.