Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

Post by K. A. Pital »

Stuart wrote:...and the resulting downward delegation of power that jerked it out of that stagnation
I beg to differ. The last 20 years have been for the most part a colossal economic stagnation; political shenanigans between the oligarchy notwithstanding, there hasn't been much progress in politics either (if at all).

If anything, Russia is damn close to imploding in a few years from now (other, pauperized post-Soviet nations already are imploding, Kyrgizia an example). This is also why I fled to China. Literally.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by Stuart »

Stas Bush wrote:I beg to differ. The last 20 years have been for the most part a colossal economic stagnation; political shenanigans between the oligarchy notwithstanding, there hasn't been much progress in politics either (if at all). If anything, Russia is damn close to imploding in a few years from now (other, pauperized post-Soviet nations already are imploding, Kyrgizia an example). This is also why I fled to China. Literally.
I'd look at it a bit differently. Instead of being a smooth sequence of development with one phase moving into the next in an ordered manner, Russia has seen its evolution proceed in a series of jerks, each seperated by a period of chaos before the new level is acheived. Thus, following the collapse of the Tsarist regime, we have the civil war and the famines that were eventually succeeded by a new regime that matched its degree of devolution to the prevailing circumstances. That new balance held good until the 1950s when there was a new period of chaos (mercifully short) before Khruschev took over and modernized the regime to match it to a new era. That more or less collapsed in the 1980s and we're seeing the period of chaos now with another new regime slowly emerging.

If this interpretation is correct, (emphasizing the word 'if') we can see a few things in a pattern. One is that the cycle is speeding up and that matches the increasing rate of technological innovation. Another is that the longer an obsolescent model of power disposition remains in force (and is maintained by force), the more disastrous was the period of disruption when it finally fell. The long period of stagnation and decay under the Tsars and the maintenance of that status by brutal force for so many years resulted in the extreme violence and dislocation of its end. In contrast, the quick realization that the old Stalinist model had outlived its time and its prompt replacement kept the 1950s disruption to a minimum. Thus, it can be argued that the Brezhnevian stagnation and decay was the scene-setter for the economic melt-down that followed its collapse.

I'm more hopeful over the future of Russia than you are, simply out of respect for the demonstrated ability of the Russian people to bear hardship and adversity in the hope of something better. Looking at the numbers now, I think the worst of the transition is well over. Provided nobody screws it up of course.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by K. A. Pital »

Stuart wrote:That more or less collapsed in the 1980s and we're seeing the period of chaos now with another new regime slowly emerging.
Sort of... there's one problem - industrial production in Russia is decimated. The very highest-tech items were the first to bite the dust in the transition. Russia's economy today is much more resource-dependent than the Soviet one.
Stuart wrote:I'm more hopeful over the future of Russia than you are, simply out of respect for the demonstrated ability of the Russian people to bear hardship and adversity in the hope of something better. Looking at the numbers now, I think the worst of the transition is well over. Provided nobody screws it up of course.
As an economist who had to work inside Russian "enterprises" and deal with Russian "businessmen" first-hand, it's not the people I'm not hopeful about. It's the objective factors - industrial primitivization, a shortening pool of Russian exports, and finally, Russia's draining natural resources (oil is set for a decline from 2010 onwards even with megaprojects :( ).

So in my view, Russia's fall is objective. A nation with collapsing demography, education, healthcare and more and more primitive industry can't survive as a major power. Russia can linger as a resource neo-colony for a while... but that's it.

My cynism doesn't come from a belief in the collapse of Russia; I'd love to believe otherwise. It's more a consequence of the knowledge of Russia's situation. I think it's the most probable outcome.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

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Stas Bush wrote: Sort of... there's one problem - industrial production in Russia is decimated. The very highest-tech items were the first to bite the dust in the transition. Russia's economy today is much more resource-dependent than the Soviet one.
I would agree with that (sadly) although the Soviet 'very highest-tech items' were something of a potemkin village in that they weren't really up to much and had horrendous servicing and reliability problems. They were in the unfortunate gulf that sits between "high enough tech to cost a huge amount of money" and "high enough tech to be reliable". Losing that lot probably wasn't too bad a thing and the stuff that was good (mostly military) still sells well.
Stuart wrote: As an economist who had to work inside Russian "enterprises" and deal with Russian "businessmen" first-hand, it's not the people I'm not hopeful about. It's the objective factors - industrial primitivization, a shortening pool of Russian exports, and finally, Russia's draining natural resources (oil is set for a decline from 2010 onwards even with megaprojects.
I would describe it more as rationalization rather than primitivization. Getting rid of the things that have no real market. The shortening pool of exports I would define as part of that same problem. Both can be summarized as Russia coming out into the real trade world. That always is a brutal process and it's worse for having been delayed so long. China actually did the same thing a couple of decades back and went through much the same layers of grief. Russia has to totally restructure its industry if it's going to compete on the international market and one of the nasty bits about restructuring is that the dead wood has to die. The resource dependency is a way of financing that process. Anyway, the Emperor Field is still out there in Siberia somewhere (unless the Siberian Trappes ate it which is a theory gaining popularity.)
So in my view, Russia's fall is objective. A nation with collapsing demography, education, healthcare and more and more primitive industry can't survive as a major power. Russia can linger as a resource neo-colony for a while... but that's it. My cynism doesn't come from a belief in the collapse of Russia; I'd love to believe otherwise. It's more a consequence of the knowledge of Russia's situation. I think it's the most probable outcome.
You may well be right. A lot's going to depend on what happens over the next few years. Russia's days as a world power are definately over but the country still has the potential to be a reasonably capable regional power. The trouble is that Putin's reach exceeds his grasp and he's going to have to learn to change that.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

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Stuart wrote:Anyway, the Emperor Field is still out there in Siberia somewhere (unless the Siberian Trappes ate it which is a theory gaining popularity.)
What is the Emperor Field?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by xthetenth »

The Vortex Empire wrote:
Stuart wrote:Anyway, the Emperor Field is still out there in Siberia somewhere (unless the Siberian Trappes ate it which is a theory gaining popularity.)
What is the Emperor Field?
An ocean of oil basically, from what Stuart said earlier (and I hope he'll correct/expand on this), the various types of oil fields are ranked according to a medieval hierarchy, with each getting a bunch bigger. They all have distinct traits and occur in groups of all of them (not sure how the ratios of each type work out), and from that we know that we haven't found the emperor field that should be in Siberia.

He might have said that in the TBO thread, actually. My question is what the trappes are and how they might eat an oil field.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by starslayer »

The Siberian Traps are the lava fields left by an enormous mantle plume eruption that covered what is now Siberia about 250 million years ago, to the tune of several million square kilometers. They are several miles thick in places, IIRC, and also would have completely destroyed the the plant beds which were starting to be converted into oil. These bogs would have created an emperor field because of their sheer size; they covered most of Siberia during that time.
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Stuart wrote:Russia has to totally restructure its industry if it's going to compete on the international market and one of the nasty bits about restructuring is that the dead wood has to die.
Argentina has utterly collapsed while trying to "restructure" itself to fit the whims of the Washington Consensus. I'm not sure conforming to the brutal truth like 'we need only 50-60 million people of yours to pump out that oil and gas to make our cozy, warm First World homes have nice cheap blue flamies, and the rest can lay down and die, emigrate or do whatever they want' is what I can earnestly support as 'a required pain'. The international market may be objective in causing these calamities upon my nation - Russia's labour is expensive, the climate is cold, investment is complicated and industry is dead, so there's little left to modernize - but sure as hell that resource-hungry approach has shit to do with human welfare. It's unintentional brutality at best, economic terror at worst.

*laughs* The way America and the First World made other nations conform to their demands on the 'world market', regardless of whether it lifted their populations out of poverty or, in fact, did the exact opposite, is a very sad tale which yet has to be told in full.

You can't say paying $200 a month to teachers and doctors is part of 'the required transition to a modern economy', because no modern economy destroys its education and healthcare with such offensively low wages. Quite the opposite, in fact - even in China teachers get more than they get in Russia, despite China's GDP/capita being far lower. That's just awful no matter how you put it. Market, shmarket, 'invisible hand', 'rationalization'. If those hundreds of thousands of dead from privately produced bad alcohol, from inadequate care, from drug addiction are the 'price' of 'rationalization', maybe that's not good at all.

Pain should lead to progress, which is manifested in a widening assortment of more and better goods. So far it only led to a regress. Economic diversification is a key to success (China modernized it's old industries for a very wide range of products, not destroyed all of them overnight, and now they can make anything from clothes to heavy machinery and good weapons). Primitivization never works. You go from resources TO modern industry (like Sweden and Finland), not from a modern industry to a resource-export model.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by SilverHawk »

If your country lacks the ability to chart it's own path, other nations will do that for it. If it's of the best results to your countrymen is irrelevant to the discussion. You abdicate the future of your country when you lack the materials to do so on your own.

And that's the brutal truth.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by K. A. Pital »

SilverHawk wrote:If your country lacks the ability to chart it's own path, other nations will do that for it. If it's of the best results to your countrymen is irrelevant to the discussion. You abdicate the future of your country when you lack the materials to do so on your own.

And that's the brutal truth.
*nods* That's true. However, I'm only mildly irritated when people try to claim "it's for the best", which they sometimes do, and this discussion revolves around exactly that. Therefore, it is relevant to the discussion. Try paying attention, hao ma?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

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Stas Bush wrote: You go from resources TO modern industry (like Sweden and Finland), not from a modern industry to a resource-export model.
Unless you're Australia. :D
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by K. A. Pital »

Lonestar wrote:
Stas Bush wrote: You go from resources TO modern industry (like Sweden and Finland), not from a modern industry to a resource-export model.
Unless you're Australia. :D
Or Saudi Arabia, for that matter. Nations with miniscule populations can survive on a highly specialized trade. But even a cursory glance tells you that exports comprise about 16% of Australian GDP, which is 1 trillion for a nation of 22 million, whereas they also comprise 25% of Russia's similar 1 trillion GDP (for a nation of 140 million).

Australia's exports are 35% manufacturing, and 37% raw resource. Russia's exports are 65% raw resource, 14% manufacturing. So while Russia exports far more natural resources than Australia, it can't provide decent wages for it's population, neither a decent life standard.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

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Maybe perhaps it's the special situation of Russia? That being in an extremely cold part of the landmass with untapped wealth and a legendarily stubborn people? Also, people should be honest about their intentions, but that's just me.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:
SilverHawk wrote:If your country lacks the ability to chart it's own path, other nations will do that for it. If it's of the best results to your countrymen is irrelevant to the discussion. You abdicate the future of your country when you lack the materials to do so on your own.
And that's the brutal truth.
*nods* That's true. However, I'm only mildly irritated when people try to claim "it's for the best", which they sometimes do, and this discussion revolves around exactly that. Therefore, it is relevant to the discussion. Try paying attention, hao ma?
Seconded; I may think capitalism is (or has the potential to be) a really good system, but it's kind of disturbing when people get self-congratulatory about the tendency of international trade to suck nations dry by encouraging them to optimize towards unsustainable economic models that leave half their population in the gutter. That's not "for the best" by any reasonable standard.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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This had been in the TSW: Pantheocide thread. I thought it was worth keeping somewhere else so it wouldn't be lost among the pages, so I split it. Let me know if I missed any posts.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seventy Three Up

Post by Samuel »

SilverHawk wrote:Maybe perhaps it's the special situation of Russia? That being in an extremely cold part of the landmass with untapped wealth and a legendarily stubborn people? Also, people should be honest about their intentions, but that's just me.
While that is the optimium result for the market, that isn't for the population of Russia. Or central Asia. So basically 300 million people are geting screwed over so that... um... I don't think you guess are even a major trade market for us. I guess "concentrating wealth in the hands of oligarchs" is the result, which would be acceptable if they didn't take it all out of the country and leave the population in grinding poverty.
Seconded; I may think capitalism is (or has the potential to be) a really good system, but it's kind of disturbing when people get self-congratulatory about the tendency of international trade to suck nations dry by encouraging them to optimize towards unsustainable economic models that leave half their population in the gutter. That's not "for the best" by any reasonable standard.
The market eliminates profit opportunites and maximizes efficient allocation of resources (where efficiency is providing goods and services to where they would recieve the highest returns). It does not- cannot- maximize human welfare. That is only a side effect of growth that usually comes with the free market. The gulf between them is why their is a problem.
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Stas Bush wrote: Argentina has utterly collapsed while trying to "restructure" itself to fit the whims of the Washington Consensus. I'm not sure conforming to the brutal truth like 'we need only 50-60 million people of yours to pump out that oil and gas to make our cozy, warm First World homes have nice cheap blue flamies, and the rest can lay down and die, emigrate or do whatever they want' is what I can earnestly support as 'a required pain'. The international market may be objective in causing these calamities upon my nation - Russia's labour is expensive, the climate is cold, investment is complicated and industry is dead, so there's little left to modernize - but sure as hell that resource-hungry approach has shit to do with human welfare. It's unintentional brutality at best, economic terror at worst.
Argentina's problems can also be placed on a series of politicians who've set out country-immolating policies. Trying to tax your farmers into oblivion, essentially stealing billions from your pension funds, having almost a whimsical set of currency controls, the list goes on.
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Re: For merging

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Stas Bush wrote: Argentina has utterly collapsed while trying to "restructure" itself to fit the whims of the Washington Consensus.
That's not so. Argentina brought most of its problems on itself. That's a very sad story indeed; the country was once well-run, exceptionally prosperous and in a good position to become the leading regional power. That was before Peron and the Peronista's. The problems Argentina faces are entirely internally generated; they have only themselves to blame.
The international market may be objective in causing these calamities upon my nation - Russia's labour is expensive, the climate is cold, investment is complicated and industry is dead, so there's little left to modernize - but sure as hell that resource-hungry approach has shit to do with human welfare. It's unintentional brutality at best, economic terror at worst.
Firstly, it's important to differentiate between the phrases "it's all for the best" and "it'll all work out in the end". Secondly, nobody would argue that could not have been handled a lot better or that the execution of the transition from an attempt at a self-contained economic system to participation in the world economic system was anything other than monumentally botched. On the other hand, it had a massive leap to make and it's not surprising that the leap fell short.

The comments about the world economic system don't really hold water. One of the initial steps to recovering from the mess Russia is in now is absorbing the concept of realism; the world is as it is, not the way we would like it to be. The economic system is the way it is because that's how it shakes down. The US didn't create it; it existed long before the US existed and will exist when the US is a barely-remembered memory. Accepting that is the first step out of the economic swamp; failing to do so dooms those who fail to remain there. Put bluntly, a nation can't make other countries buy its products by putting a gun to their head. That ends up as counter-productive. Nations have to produce what the world wants otherwise the world won't buy it. They'll buy from people who do produce what they want. It doesn't count for beans to go around asking people to buy a product they don't want "because we're poor and need the money". That's called begging and beggars rarely are anything of any account. Realism again, it may not be how we like things to be but its the way things are.

Russia's problem boils down to the fact that they have very little for sale that people want to buy. Basically oil gas, vodka and caviar. The intent of transition is to use sales of what can be sold to develop industry that can produce good that people want to buy. The problem Russia had was that didn't happen. People sold the oil and gas (and the rest) and, instead of investing the proceeds, looted them and stashed them away in Switzerland. That's the key to the present problem and the one Putin is trying to sort out. Russia's current difficulties are just about as home-grown as those that destroyed Argentina. The world economic system is not to blame for them; to allocate blame, Russia should look in a mirror and accept what it sees.

Also, complaining about the elimination of Russia's "high-tech" doesn't hold water. The truth is, Russia never had a high-tech industry by world standards. It had an illusion of one, a potemkin village of high technology, but the truth of the matter was that it lagged about five to ten years behind the rest of the developed world. It produced kit that was a generation behind and most of its development was facilitated by technology stolen from elsewhere. Russian "high tech" will not sell on the international market because other countries produce better, more reliable equipment that is also less expensive. Take an electronics store, put a Russian computer beside a Japanese one and see which one people buy. That's the international market at work.

There are areas where Russian technology was competitive. The Su-27 for example or some SAMs. They've sold quite well. The problem is they have no civilian equivalents. There should be, but the money was looted during the 1990s. That's set recovery back by decades.
You can't say paying $200 a month to teachers and doctors is part of 'the required transition to a modern economy', because no modern economy destroys its education and healthcare with such offensively low wages. Quite the opposite, in fact - even in China teachers get more than they get in Russia, despite China's GDP/capita being far lower. That's just awful no matter how you put it. Market, shmarket, 'invisible hand', 'rationalization'. If those hundreds of thousands of dead from privately produced bad alcohol, from inadequate care, from drug addiction are the 'price' of 'rationalization', maybe that's not good at all.
No, it isn't good. You mentioned China. Go back forty years and China then was in as equally bad a situation as Russia is today. Some areas still are; Chinese economic development is very patchy. However, China did two things that Russia didn't. It recognized the problem very early and did something to correct it. In fact, they managed their correction problem very well and the results are what you describe. They played to their strengths, minimized their weaknesses and picked product areas that they could sell. Then they exploited those for all they are worth. The result is today's talk of "The China Model" and China's undoubted economic success. Say again, Russia's problems are self-inflicted. The Russian administration refused to recognize the problems while they were still soluble (they actually booted the last leader who did recognize those problems) and did nothing to correct them. By the time the problems were recognized, stagnation was so well-established that getting out of it would have been a major achievement for any nation. For one that was broke, stagnant and crippled by the remnants of 70 years under an idiotic system (and at least three centuries of an equally idiotic system before that) it needed a miracle. That's what Russia didn't get.
Pain should lead to progress, which is manifested in a widening assortment of more and better goods. So far it only led to a regress. Economic diversification is a key to success (China modernized it's old industries for a very wide range of products, not destroyed all of them overnight, and now they can make anything from clothes to heavy machinery and good weapons). Primitivization never works. You go from resources TO modern industry (like Sweden and Finland), not from a modern industry to a resource-export model.
The problem is that Russia never had a really modern industry. Nor did China (in fact China was in a much worse position back then than Russia is today). Chinese economic development was a good example of bootstrapping. They selected what they could make and sell on the international market and sold that. Then they used the proceeds to develop another sector. Then they used the proceeds from those sectors to develop two more. And so on. That's what didn't happen in Russia. The proceeds form the sectors that did work were looted. Again, the problem isn't with the world market, it was something you Russians did to yourselves. Sorry, the blame falls entirely upon you.

Having said that, how does Russia get out of its problems? The answer is to follow the Chinese Model. Select something that can be done and produce something the world wants to buy. Use oil and gas revenues to do it. Once that sector is established, use the revenues to develop another - and then two more. use the revenues from those four to develop another four. And so on. railing against teh world economic system is very satisfying but it really doesn't get anybody anywhere. It is what it is; it isn't going to change so learn to live with it and make it work for you, not against you. It's the refusal to do that simple act of realism that has condemned Russia to its present state.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Stuart wrote:That's not so. Argentina brought most of its problems on itself. That's a very sad story indeed; the country was once well-run, exceptionally prosperous and in a good position to become the leading regional power. That was before Peron and the Peronista's. The problems Argentina faces are entirely internally generated; they have only themselves to blame.
That's true, although Argentina also shows how difficult it can be to get away from a bad reputation. They actually did have a couple of good years in the 1990s when they clamped down on inflation, pegged their currency to the dollar, and privatized a bunch of state industries. Problem is, the economy slowed down in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and as soon as they weren't able to keep to that strict policy, most international investment bolted the country (not helped, of course, by a "debt moratorium").
Stuart wrote:Having said that, how does Russia get out of its problems? The answer is to follow the Chinese Model. Select something that can be done and produce something the world wants to buy.
The problem with the Chinese Model was that they got started by basically being a cheap-labor assembly point for international (and particularly American) businesses, with the factories being the product of foreign technology and foreign management. That's changed over the years as they've brought in more FDI, better technology, and improved the state-owned companies, but I'm not sure how well that's imitable in the case of Russia. Particularly since the existing heavy reliance on oil and gas exports means that Russia's always at the risk of catching Dutch Disease, and that's a killer for Export-Led Industrialization (the only kind that has worked very well in the long run for countries industrializing in the twentieth century).
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

Post by Stuart »

Guardsman Bass wrote: The problem with the Chinese Model was that they got started by basically being a cheap-labor assembly point for international (and particularly American) businesses, with the factories being the product of foreign technology and foreign management. That's changed over the years as they've brought in more FDI, better technology, and improved the state-owned companies, but I'm not sure how well that's imitable in the case of Russia. Particularly since the existing heavy reliance on oil and gas exports means that Russia's always at the risk of catching Dutch_Disease, and that's a killer for Export-Led Industrialization (the only kind that has worked very well in the long run for countries industrializing in the twentieth century).
I agree, although it could be argued that China didn't have Russia's reserves of gas and oil to kick-start its economic rebuild.. China also didn't have the residue of any industry worthy of the name. In 1969, literally the only thing Chinese that anybody wanted was the famous Little Red Book (I don't count Chinese foodsince I've eaten Chinese food and what one gets in the west isn't it. - Stu sighs happily at the memory of The Real Thing). I must admit that it is hard to think of an industry that could make a dent in the world market and be profitably run out of Russia, but I guess that goes to show if running countries was easy, everybody would be doing it. Putin seems to be looking for a bootstrap industry so it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with.

A good start might be to list the things Russia does have available and start from there.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Just to check on your comments about the Russians kicking out the last leader who recognized the problem of stagnation... do you mean Khrushchev?
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Indeed, Khruschev. He knew the system wasn't working and tried to put it right. Unfortunately he trod on so many toes, the old guard booted him out. It's interesting to speculate on an alternative history where Khruschev remained in power.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Stuart wrote:Indeed, Khruschev. He knew the system wasn't working and tried to put it right. Unfortunately he trod on so many toes, the old guard booted him out. It's interesting to speculate on an alternative history where Khruschev remained in power.
Kruschev definitely was in a position to potentially perform what Deng managed to pull off in the PRC, but he would have been better served playing more low-key rather than the overtly bombastic style that played into the hands of Brezhnev and Kosygin, unfortunately.

Wrt the boostrap approach, one thing about that reminds me off how the Iranians (both the Shah and the Islamic Republic) wanted to shift from being suppliers of unrefined petroleum to refined petroleum products to improve their economic productivity; revolution and war greatly disrupted those plans, but the idea was sound nonetheless.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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I feel there's a misunderstanding. First of all, nowhere did I say that the Argentine, or more to the point, Russian elites (including the 1980s CPSU and the current elite), Russian oligarchy and capitalists are somehow blameless in all this. In fact, the exact opposite - they are the chief perpetrators of all that has transpired. And even the common people of Russia take a part of the blame for letting it all happen, obviously.

However, what I maintain, is that all what has transpired was decided by purely rational market factors, all of which were purely objective.

Factor 1: Labour. China and Russia were not, in fact, similar. Let's put it as a theorem - with all other conditions being similar, the nation with cheaper labour will win against the nation with more expensive labour. Chinese was objectively cheap - climate, uneducated rural population which was just urbanizing, extremely bad living conditions compared to Russia. Russian labour was in the late 1980s, is and will remain objectively expensive - climate is cold, and Russia was an industrialized, urbanized nation by the late 1980s. Ergo, the conditions are not similar.

Factor 2: Goods. The above makes it simply so that only natural monopolies will survive in competition with foreign goods. Consumer items were created for the internal market and thus were sub-par (and even if they weren't, they were utterly destroyed by the sweeping economic collapse regardless if they even were competitive or had a potential). This makes it rational for the capitalist to only invest in selling rawest natural resource (oil, gas, timber). It is the fastest path to enrichment.

Thus, the actions of Russian capitalists and oligarchs were perfectly market-rational. There was no demand for locally produced goods neither exterally, nor internally; labour was expensive (trying to lower wages led to malnutrition and a fair amount of deaths, but didn't make Russian goods competitive, climate and urban-workforce constraints are objective). Thus the capitalists took the shortest paths to personal enrichment.

Liquidating a factory in the manufacturing sector, moving all assets abroad and your entire family abroad is also perfectly rational. First, the Russian capitalist enriches himself in a maximally fast way. Then he removes funds from an unstable nation whose government has just collapsed. Finally, he removes his family from Russia. Regardless of the misery he could force on entire towns, his economic goals are fully rational, and fully accomplished, I may add.

So, sadly, (1) Chinese model is not for Russia; in fact, Chinese labour wins over Russian labour 90% of the time, historically. Conditions are not similar. (2) The untold misery is a consequence of the laws of economics in action. The capitalists are callous fucking bastards, but they behave in a purely rational fashion, achieving the shortest possible enrichment regardless of conseqences and then saving their money abroad.

I never denied the sub-par quality of Second World consumer goods. However, that does not suddenly make the suffering less real. If your claim is a social-darwinist "if you can't produce something that can be sold on the world market, your people deserve the death", then sorry, I don't subscribe to social darwinism.

Putin is not trying to 'solve' anything; one group of oligarchs and capitalists has consolidated power and eliminated some rivals. That's all. One mafia thug got rid of some other thugs. Putin is the authoritarian Pinochet who exists to serve the oligarch's goals, to safeguard the riches they "privatized" during the greatest robbery of the last two decades.

And sorry, Stuart, but your idea that old industries need to die and can't be modernized is pure bullshit. Belorussia saved a huge amount of the Soviet industrial potential, then modernized it after the very worst had passed, and, unsurpirisngly, climbed out of the collapse faster than Russia, enjoyed on the average greater industrial growth and, you know, actually produces industrial goods as opposed to selling raw resources and weapons abroad.

I never said Russia or Russian elites are blameless. But they acted in a perfectly market-rational fashion. In fact, everything that transpired in Russia has been rational from a market POV.
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Re: Discussion of Russian economics (split from TSW)

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Having observed the functionality of biological systems, market rationalism is so dysfunctional in comparison that however difficult and agonizing it may be the ideological conceits behind such concepts will invariably be disposed of, especially considering how profitable business can be destroyed purely for the immediate gain of a few upon other things.
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