US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

Post by Big Orange »

War does weird things to people but this is of course inexcusable:
US Troops Allegedly Took Afghan Fingers as Souvenirs

(Sept. 9) -- In one of the most grisly war crimes investigations to date, 12 American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly murdered Afghan civilians for sport and collected bits of their fingers as war souvenirs.

Five of the soldiers have been charged with killing three Afghan civilians in January, February and May of this year. Seven of their comrades are accused of helping them cover up the murders and beating up another U.S. soldier -- an alleged whistle-blower fresh out of basic training who reported his platoon mates for smoking hashish stolen from Afghans. All of the accused are based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington state, and served a year with a Stryker infantry brigade in southern Afghanistan. Their unit -- B Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry Regiment, 5th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division -- saw heavy combat in Afghanistan and suffered many casualties.

On Wednesday, The Seattle Times published excerpts of U.S. military documents outlining charges against the soldiers, and several other news agencies have reported on the case. The charges include premeditated murder, aggravated assault, obstructing justice and possessing human body parts, and carry penalties of up to life in prison or the death penalty.

The documents say that the most senior ranking defendant, Staff Sgt. Calvin Gibbs, 25, of Billings, Mont., was found in possession of "finger bones, leg bones and a tooth taken from Afghan corpses," according to Al-Jazeera. In the coming weeks, each accused soldier is expected to go before an Article 32 hearing -- the military's version of arraignment -- where authorities will review evidence and decide whether to go ahead with courts-martial.

According to previous court documents that detail investigators' interviews with the defendants' platoon mates, the idea of a "kill team" was first floated in December 2009 by Gibbs, who joked with his comrades about how easy it would be to "toss a grenade" at Afghan civilians and kill them. One soldier responded that it was a stupid idea, but another reportedly told investigators he thought Gibbs was "feeling out the platoon." Those documents were excerpted by The Guardian and The Associated Press.

Gibbs and most of his co-defendants have denied the charges against them.

But one of them, 22-year-old Spc. Jeremy Morlock of Wasilla, Alaska, reportedly admitted involvement in the January killing of Afghan civilian Gul Mudin. He told Army investigators that Gibbs handed him a grenade, which he then tossed over a low wall toward Mudin. Another soldier, Pvt. 1st Class Andrew Holmes, 19, of Boise, Idaho, also told investigators that Morlock ordered him to fire over the wall, but he was unsure whether he hit the Afghan man. Holmes said that Morlock threatened his life if he told anyone, the Times reported.

Morlock made extensive statements to investigators that his lawyer is now trying to get struck from the record, claiming that he was under the influence of prescription drugs taken for head injuries suffered in Afghanistan.
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The US Military seems to have a nasty underground culture of taking trophies, although sadly it's not unique, with the taking of Japanese skulls as trophies back in WWII quite shocking then, let alone now.

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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Just reinforces my earlier belief that given the right motivation/pressure, one can easily turn a bunch of trained soldiers into war criminals.

Who here thinks most of these guys will not get the death penalty? Or not even a particularly long sentence? Given the USA's past record on war crimes, I really doubt they will prosecute this vigorously. Most likely it will just be swept under the rug, to have idiots then go "There were no warcrimes in [Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan/insert future country of your choice]" and prolonging the myth of the American Soldier (tm).
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Haha, Morlock.

Thanas, I think most of these guys will not get the death penalty. Or not even a particularly long sentence. :P

You have to understand, Thanas. War is difficult and can subject soldiers to a lot of pressure and stressors. Regrettable incidents like this are bound to happen, just like helicopters shooting a bunch of journalists and civilians to pieces and then shooting a van full of people and kids trying to get these guys and bring them to help. This isn't an atrocity, the definition of atrocity is arguable, and besides it's not anywhere near the scale of "real" atrocities anyway. It is an unfortunate reality of war that we must bear. :)

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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Somehow the question that gets raised in my mind over this is "How can anyone still think we are perceived as having any moral authority in the Middle East?"

It's hypocritical for the Army to have the ability to apply the death penalty and not use it on these murderers. In fact, that's the only way I can think of to begin to mitigate the public relations damage.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Haha, Morlock.

Thanas, I think most of these guys will not get the death penalty. Or not even a particularly long sentence. :P

You have to understand, Thanas. War is difficult and can subject soldiers to a lot of pressure and stressors. Regrettable incidents like this are bound to happen, just like helicopters shooting a bunch of journalists and civilians to pieces and then shooting a van full of people and kids trying to get these guys and bring them to help. This isn't an atrocity, the definition of atrocity is arguable, and besides it's not anywhere near the scale of "real" atrocities anyway. It is an unfortunate reality of war that we must bear. :)

Etcetera.

I bet there are a few million civilians who feel comforted now that troops hooked on rage/steroids/racial hate shooting them was not an atrocity. Yeah, I know you were joking, but I really hate this line of arguing. Compared to armies of past ages, soldiers are ridiculously pampered these days, so if the stress excuse did not fly back then, it sure as heck is not going to fly now.

Basically it amounts to "Our soldiers are giant scaredy-cats, so do not punish them for flying off the handle". Really, what an asinine line of apologia. "Yes, your honor, I was really stressed, so I formed a kill squad and collected fingers to relax me."
Last edited by Thanas on 2010-09-10 09:09am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Anguirus wrote:Somehow the question that gets raised in my mind over this is "How can anyone still think we are perceived as having any moral authority in the Middle East?"
That does not matter, Anguirus. American foreign interests are the most important thing. It's for the good of our country, and if these people knew better, then they'd know that it's for the good of their country too. What's a few cut up fingers worth compared to that? You have to accept these realities. It's not pleasant, but that's just the way the world works. Besides, if not America, then who else? Would these hypothetical non-existent other powers be any better? I doubt it. America is the Middle East's only protection.

From what?

From themselves.
It's hypocritical for the Army to have the ability to apply the death penalty and not use it on these murderers. In fact, that's the only way I can think of to begin to mitigate the public relations damage.
Public relations damage with what? The Afghan public? Why would we care what the Afghan public thinks? I don't think the American public would like it much if we executed good American boys over some dead Afghans. The American public is more valuable and important than the Afghan public, or any other public for that matter.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Thanas wrote: Most likely it will just be swept under the rug, to have idiots then go "There were no warcrimes in [Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan/insert future country of your choice]" and prolonging the myth of the American Soldier (tm).
That sounds like a most probable outcome and speaking of 'Nam, Colin Powell was involved in trying to cover up the infamous My Lai massacre (and a fair few other dirty deeds).
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Explain to me why we don't publicly execute our war criminals in the country they commited the crime? Seems to me that would be a nice win-win; justice and an excellent PR statement to the locals on how we do not tolerate this sort of thing.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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@open_sketchbook: That's exactly what the British did in the early 1800s, whereas Napoleon preferred to grab his conquered subjects by the balls and hope their hearts and minds followed.
Oddly enough, we had a significantly less trouble with partisans.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Zaune wrote:@open_sketchbook: That's exactly what the British did in the early 1800s, whereas Napoleon preferred to grab his conquered subjects by the balls and hope their hearts and minds followed.
Oddly enough, we had a significantly less trouble with partisans.
That is a very naive viewpoint you have off the peninsular war there.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

Post by MKSheppard »

Wow; that is some serious breakdown in discipline and morale (the smoking hashhish from dead afghans is what stood out at me).
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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open_sketchbook wrote:Explain to me why we don't publicly execute our war criminals in the country they commited the crime? Seems to me that would be a nice win-win; justice and an excellent PR statement to the locals on how we do not tolerate this sort of thing.
Because their families would sue the shit out of the army???

Definitely need to rotate the troops and tighten up the recruitment standards, we got a little fast and loose there when we were short handed. Though suddenly I see the wisdom in rotating national Guard troops in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are a little more grounded in normalcy having jobs and families to go back to where as the army dudes who are doing what they do for years on end start to get a little psychotic.

Thanks Army for reawakening my ability to be appalled yet again.

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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

Post by Sarevok »

MKSheppard wrote:Wow; that is some serious breakdown in discipline and morale (the smoking hashhish from dead afghans is what stood out at me).
Is it possible that a militaries war fighting capability itself degrades the longer it is mired in insurgencies ?
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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Anguirus wrote:Somehow the question that gets raised in my mind over this is "How can anyone still think we are perceived as having any moral authority in the Middle East?"
Well, the usual suspect certainly still do; but than again, they think they have moral authority over everyone's lives.
Anguirus wrote:It's hypocritical for the Army to have the ability to apply the death penalty and not use it on these murderers. In fact, that's the only way I can think of to begin to mitigate the public relations damage.
Would you like to know more?

While it doesn't give a full accounting of the offenses of the 135 executed, the ones it does and the ones awaiting execution all seem to be standard domestic style robbery, rape, murder charges. The lone exception seems to be Hasan Akbar. If Calley didn't get it, I doubt these fucks will.
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Re: US Army Grunts Busted for Killing and Defiling Afghans.

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open_sketchbook wrote:Explain to me why we don't publicly execute our war criminals in the country they commited the crime? Seems to me that would be a nice win-win; justice and an excellent PR statement to the locals on how we do not tolerate this sort of thing.
Because we are seemingly incapable of rational self-governance, let alone rational other-governance.

We're willing to sacrifice the lives of soldiers who have done nothing wrong in combat in an attempt to establish a stable, respected government in Afghanistan, but we aren't willing to sacrifice the lives of soldiers who have done something wrong in order to achieve the same.
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