Bill Maher responds to Stewartcon/Colbertcon

[TithonusSyndrome]

I really didn't know where was best to put this and I'm crunched for time, so if a mod has some bright ideas go ahead and boot it.

[Thanas]

And there you go. Moved.

[Slacker]

I think Maher sort of misses the point-Stewart's point was, if the crazies are filtered out, objective reason wins out and the liberal agenda triumphs. He just couldn't out and out say it. There was subtext. I mean, he's not really wrong, but if the price for muzzling Fox News and the rest of the pro-Conservative media is Keith Olberman, then that's a price worth paying.

[CaptJodan]

I think Maher sort of misses the point-Stewart's point was, if the crazies are filtered out, objective reason wins out and the liberal agenda triumphs. He just couldn't out and out say it. There was subtext. I mean, he's not really wrong, but if the price for muzzling Fox News and the rest of the pro-Conservative media is Keith Olberman, then that's a price worth paying.

But that's not the price. Get rid of Olberman, Maddow, and anyone else you think is extreme on the left, and you're only going to go more right, which was also his point. Honestly, the way things are going, you almost need an extreme right movement to shift the center back from "center"-right. FOX is doing a booming business. They're not going to stop if you start whispering sweet nothings to them and pandering to them, which is what we've seen happen to no effect.

[Slacker]

I don't think the Rally was anything about that, though. It wasn't about 'If we just can talk some sense into Glen Beck, then we'd be fine!'. It was about 'Ignore these clownshoes, because they're hurting America'. Someone who is intellectually honest enough to do that would obviously have far more to discount on the right than the left.

The issue I have with liberals nowadays is 'why the fuck is Jon Stewart the only one with testicles enough to stand up and try and make a difference'. Especially when those same liberals are criticizing Stewart's efforts. At least he did something.

[Flagg]

I loved how bad of a metaphor Stewart used with the traffic nonsense. Yeah, it all works great when everyone is moving in the same direction, now try it when half the cars are driving right into oncoming traffic and see what happens.

[Alphawolf55]

I loved how bad of a metaphor Stewart used with the traffic nonsense. Yeah, it all works great when everyone is moving in the same direction, now try it when half the cars are driving right into oncoming traffic and see what happens.

Except his point was, wasn't that everyone's able to work things out all the time. He was talking about how that tunnel shows that even though we're on days when we could nearly snap, we still find the sanit to be organized and civil even though everyone wants to get home the soonest.

I was at the Rally and it seemed to me, the message wasn't "Lets go for the middle", it was more "It's alright to have opinions and to be strongminded about them, but don't go for exagerrations or outright lies" He's saying it's alright to be against Scot Brown, but you don't need to call him a racist homophobe who hates women, it's alright to think socialized medicine is a bad idea just don't talk about death panels, it's okay to think the Republicans have a horrible healthcare plan but sayingthey should want everyone to drop dead isn't helpful.

He's saying that if the American people are given the straight up facts without any lies, we'd probably be able to find some solutions if slightly imperfect, but when the news media and politicians use fear mongering to mobilize you, it's impossible to even budget. And at the end of the day, a message like that helps liberals far more then conservatives.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Lots of Republicans are demonstratively racist homophobes who hate women by any commonplace, every-day, plain-English-dictionary definition of the words. For fuck's sake, should I kiss their ass too?

Stewart is wrong; the problem with our communities and cultures is there IS NO political discussion or passion, so the vacuum of real world discussion and participation on a face-to-face level is just filled by whatever Bubba is fed via the tube everyday after work he's still being paid (adjusted for inflation) the same as his dad in 1973, and its totally manufactured hysteria.

There is no serious or systematic hysteria industry on the left. There most definitely is on the right. False equivalency is bullshit.

[Patrick Degan]

I loved how bad of a metaphor Stewart used with the traffic nonsense. Yeah, it all works great when everyone is moving in the same direction, now try it when half the cars are driving right into oncoming traffic and see what happens.

Except his point was, wasn't that everyone's able to work things out all the time. He was talking about how that tunnel shows that even though we're on days when we could nearly snap, we still find the sanit to be organized and civil even though everyone wants to get home the soonest.

The metaphor doesn't work, though, because the rightards are actively trying to unravel sanity, civility, and even organised society itself. They're not driving cars into oncoming traffic, they're driving Mack trucks into it.

I was at the Rally and it seemed to me, the message wasn't "Lets go for the middle", it was more "It's alright to have opinions and to be strongminded about them, but don't go for exagerrations or outright lies" He's saying it's alright to be against Scot Brown, but you don't need to call him a racist homophobe who hates women, it's alright to think socialized medicine is a bad idea just don't talk about death panels, it's okay to think the Republicans have a horrible healthcare plan but saying they should want everyone to drop dead isn't helpful.

Given that dropping dead (after your family have been driven into bankruptcy) is the logical outcome to Republican free-market healthcare "policy", stating so just happens to be the ugly truth of the matter.

He's saying that if the American people are given the straight up facts without any lies, we'd probably be able to find some solutions if slightly imperfect, but when the news media and politicians use fear mongering to mobilize you, it's impossible to even budget. And at the end of the day, a message like that helps liberals far more then conservatives.

Jon Stewart is an idealist, maybe. But unfortunately he's talking to a situation which doesn't currently exist in our political landscape.

[Andrew J.]

The metaphor doesn't work, though, because the rightards are actively trying to unravel sanity, civility, and even organised society itself. They're not driving cars into oncoming traffic, they're driving Mack trucks into it.

That's taking it a little far, don't you think? I'd say that doesn't even come close to being true for the vast majority of conservative Americans.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think the Rally was anything about that, though. It wasn't about 'If we just can talk some sense into Glen Beck, then we'd be fine!'. It was about 'Ignore these clownshoes, because they're hurting America'. Someone who is intellectually honest enough to do that would obviously have far more to discount on the right than the left.

I agree with this. Again, look at the signs the crowd was carrying. You find a lot of the joke-signs, the "You are probably not Hitler" signs. Look past those, and you see left wing signs almost exclusively.

So "nonpartisan" Stewart gets up and issues a plea for not making up random fears, with Comedy Central's favorite fake Republican Stephen Colbert up there as a foil for him... I think anyone here who doesn't get the message and thinks that this wasn't a rally with a slant, that its criticism for making up fears wasn't directed more at the side that actually does it... well, they're missing the point.

Read between the lines, and I think it's obvious enough.

The metaphor doesn't work, though, because the rightards are actively trying to unravel sanity, civility, and even organised society itself. They're not driving cars into oncoming traffic, they're driving Mack trucks into it.

That's taking it a little far, don't you think? I'd say that doesn't even come close to being true for the vast majority of conservative Americans.

This is where that "I disagree with you but you're probably not Hitler" thing comes in. I can tell the difference between someone I disagree with (even if I think they're pushing colossally bad ideas) and Hitler (someone who can reasonably be presented as a movie-grade villain).

There are people on the right who really do need to have their policy goals blocked for the sake of the public interest, in my opinion. But saying "Conservatives are trying to destroy civilization!" is neither an accurate statement of their objectives nor a useful one. Not unless all you want to do about it is sit at a computer terminal and try to one-up your peers by saying how bad they are.

[Channel72]

But saying "Conservatives are trying to destroy civilization!" is neither an accurate statement of their objectives nor a useful one.

Except it's much closer to the truth than saying the same about liberals.

Look, this is pretty simple. Liberal nutjobs who think that 9-11 was a conspiracy certainly exist, and they even make documentaries. But they're not even close to being mainstream voices, let alone electable to any public office. There are no would-be Senators running on a "9-11 was a conspiracy" platform. There are also some liberal nutjobs who probably think the United States should be converted into a communist regime. Again, these people are neither mainstream nor even remotely electable.

Unfortunately, the recent string of Tea Party victories demonstrates that the same cannot be said about the right. I mean, Michelle Bachmann is a member of Congress, and she blatantly denies climate science, holds outspokenly homophobic opinions, and voted against allowing abortion even for cases of rape. There simply isn't anyone on the Left that comes even close to this magnitude of extremism and insanity that has a chance in hell of getting elected anywhere.

So yes, there are extreme nuts on both sides. But the extreme nuts on the right are much more numerous and they actually have power, and no amount of reconciliatory speeches about "toning down the rhetoric" is going to change that. That was Maher's point.

[Patrick Degan]

The metaphor doesn't work, though, because the rightards are actively trying to unravel sanity, civility, and even organised society itself. They're not driving cars into oncoming traffic, they're driving Mack trucks into it.

That's taking it a little far, don't you think? I'd say that doesn't even come close to being true for the vast majority of conservative Americans.

Then why does this "vast majority" either vote for these nutjobs or sit by and allow them to be elected? And when you've got candidates for public office openly babbling about applying "Second Amendment solutions" if the ballot goes against them and Teabagger whackaloons who not only handwave away climate change evidence but also move right on to kill things in their states like high-speed rail projects (Ohio and Wisconsin), and a national political party which is openly embracing a media apparatus with creatures who fantasise about Barack Obama being beheaded in India and/or lying about his trip there costing $200 million per day, the charge is a valid one.

[Simon_Jester]

But saying "Conservatives are trying to destroy civilization!" is neither an accurate statement of their objectives nor a useful one.

Except it's much closer to the truth than saying the same about liberals.

"Less untrue" is not the same as "accurate or useful."

Unfortunately, the recent string of Tea Party victories demonstrates that the same cannot be said about the right. I mean, Michelle Bachmann is a member of Congress, and she blatantly denies climate science, holds outspokenly homophobic opinions, and voted against allowing abortion even for cases of rape. There simply isn't anyone on the Left that comes even close to this magnitude of extremism and insanity that has a chance in hell of getting elected anywhere.

So yes, there are extreme nuts on both sides. But the extreme nuts on the right are much more numerous and they actually have power, and no amount of reconciliatory speeches about "toning down the rhetoric" is going to change that. That was Maher's point.

And I think everyone physically present at the Stewart rally, everyone who actually got the message even if they weren't present, understood this.

Both the Tea Party and the demonstrators understood that the rally was in a very real sense a counter-demonstration against the Great Lunacy Movement on the right. It wasn't brightly labeled as such, I'll grant, but that is what it was.

The message was written neutrally, but everything from the choice of imagery and colors used in the rally to the choice of speakers made it blatantly obvious which side the rally was on: the one that makes up and actively pushes for less craziness.

[Patrick Degan]

Then why does this "vast majority" either vote for these nutjobs or sit by and allow them to be elected?

They don't.

But maybe you live in a country where President Palin won in a landslide, Governor Paladino didn't get crushed and tea party candidates won the majority of their races. Tell Senator O'Donnell I said "hi!"

Thank you for your trolling. Come back when you've got something like an actual rebuttal.

[Samuel]

Destructionator he was refering to the majority of rightwingers. You can still have their canidates lose and a majority of right wingers be stir crazy.

Here 1/3 left 1/3 swing 1/3 right. Even if all the right vote for tea party as long as the left+swing go non-tea party the sane canidate wins.

The closest I can thing for vote or sit by and allow them to be elected would be 2008 presidental campaign. Palin was just a single stroke from America's red button. And the McCain-Palin ticket got 45.7% Of course, that depends on how far right you consider the campaign. In all fairness the 2008 platform doesn't sound too crazy. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545
The worst I can find are (I'm including "volunary prayer" because students are already allowed to do that):

• Government waste must be taken off autopilot. We call for a one-year pause in nondefense, non-veterans discretionary spending to force a critical, cost-benefit review of all current programs.
• Because the problem is too much spending, not too few taxes, we support a supermajority requirement in both the House and Senate to guard against tax hikes.
• New authorizations should be offset by reducing another program, and no appropriation should be permitted without a current authorization.
• We will insist that the budget reasonably plan for the long-term costs of pension and health care programs and urge the conversion of such programs to defined contribution programs.

deplore the Court's arbitrary extension of Americans' habeas corpus rights to enemy combatants held abroad.
We lament that judges have denied the people their right to set abortion policies in the states and are undermining traditional marriage laws from coast to coast.

• For the sake of family farms and small businesses, we will continue our fight against the federal death tax.

The health care section is pure insanity

We will energetically assert the right of students to engage in voluntary prayer in schools and to have equal access to school facilities for religious purposes. We renew our call for replacing "family planning" programs for teens with increased funding for abstinence education, which teaches abstinence until marriage as the responsible and expected standard of behavior.

Millions of Americans suffer from problem or pathological gambling that can destroy families. We support the law prohibiting gambling over the Internet.

We condemn decisions by activist judges to deny children the opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance in public school.

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity and dignity of innocent human life.

Because our children's future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it. In the absence of a national amendment, we support the right of the people of the various states to affirm traditional marriage through state initiatives.

The balance between those two ideals has been distorted by judicial rulings which attempt to drive faith out of the public arena. The public display of the Ten Commandments does not violate the U.S. Constitution and accurately reflects the Judeo-Christian heritage of our country. We support the right of students to engage in student-initiated, student-led prayer in public schools, athletic events, and graduation ceremonies, when done in conformity with constitutional standards.

We affirm every citizen's right to apply religious values to public policy and the right of faith-based organizations to participate fully in public programs without renouncing their beliefs, removing religious objects or symbols, or becoming subject to government-imposed hiring practices. Forcing religious groups to abandon their beliefs as applied to their hiring practices is religious discrimination. We support the First Amendment right of freedom of association of the Boy Scouts of America and other service organizations whose values are under assault, and we call upon the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to reverse its policy of blacklisting religious groups which decline to arrange adoptions by same-sex couples. Respectful of our nation's diversity in faith, we urge reasonable accommodation of religious beliefs in the private workplace.

[Darth Fanboy]

Thank you for your trolling. Come back when you've got something like an actual rebuttal.

I didn't realize that you could just handwave away someone's argument by accusing them of trolling, awesome! I wonder where that is at in the board rules?

[Patrick Degan]

How fucking stupid are you, shithead? The majority of Tea Party candidates lost their elections.

Either provide evidence that "Then why does this "vast majority" either vote for these nutjobs or sit by and allow them to be elected?" or get your dumb ass the fuck out of this thread.

So, I suppose the House of Representatives is not, by your "logic", now controlled by hard-right wingers? Rand Paul wasn't elected to the Senate? Or Dan Coates? Jan Brewer wasn't reelected governor in Arizona? Or Rick Perry, who BTW is now babbling about states opting out of Social Security and Medicaid? Ohio didn't put John Kasich —who declared that high-speed passenger rail "is not in Ohio's future"— into the governor's mansion in Akron? To name but a few examples from the bi-election.

No, Destructionator, it is you who's going to get your dumb ass out of this thread —unless you can demonstrate that there actually is some "vast majority" of "true conservatives" who are so appalled at the radicalisation of the Republican Party that they're doing something to purge the whackaloons and krypto-fascists and return the GOP to a saner political orientation and that therefore my charge isn't a valid one. Otherwise, go fuck yourself.

I didn't realize that you could just handwave away someone's argument by accusing them of trolling, awesome! I wonder where that is at in the board rules?

And what "argument" would that have been, exactly? Destructionator's pathetic bit of snark which actually argued nothing?

[TimothyC]

Ohio didn't put John Kasich —who declared that high-speed passenger rail "is not in Ohio's future"— into the governor's mansion in Akron? To name but a few examples from the bi-election.

I have many issues with Kasich, and voted for Strickland, but wow, just wow Patrick.

The Capital of Ohio is Columbus. Where the heck did you get Akron?

[Samuel]

But if you use a more useful definition of conservative Americans, like those who identify themselves as either Republican or those who lean Republican in elections, a much different picture comes out.

That was what I was refering to. So 22/59... 37.3% of conservatives are tea party supporters?

[Thirdfain]

There is no serious or systematic hysteria industry on the left. There most definitely is on the right. False equivalency is bullshit.

The laughable words of a fanatic, sir. And definitely untrue. The left has a massive hysteria machine, just like the right. Remember when we lost the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act turned the US into a police state? Wait, neither of those things happened, regardless of what I heard from commentators, politicians, and the media.

If you think that the Democratic Party, one of the largest and most powerful organizations on the planet, doesn't use media manipulation and it's own brand of manufactured hysteria, you're just fooling yourself. Actually, it's that kind of political blindness- where you're always right and the other side is just stupid or mislead- which is REALLY fucking up this country. No Republicans can admit that their politicians are often corrupt and incompetent, and no Democrats can admit the same about their own party. That's the reason the systemic inefficiency in modern US politics isn't getting addressed, that's the reason our financial plan is to spend more money than we have pretty much forever- because it's always "their" fault.

I was at the Rally and it seemed to me, the message wasn't "Lets go for the middle", it was more "It's alright to have opinions and to be strongminded about them, but don't go for exagerrations or outright lies" He's saying it's alright to be against Scot Brown, but you don't need to call him a racist homophobe who hates women, it's alright to think socialized medicine is a bad idea just don't talk about death panels, it's okay to think the Republicans have a horrible healthcare plan but sayingthey should want everyone to drop dead isn't helpful.

That's what it seemed like to me, too- and it's a vital fucking message too many people are willing to ignore. Everyone on both sides of the aisle is too busy frantically masturbating to their own side's targeted propaganda to make any useful changes.

[MKSheppard]

Ohio didn't put John Kasich —who declared that high-speed passenger rail "is not in Ohio's future

And it isn't in any other state's future. There's only one place suitable in the US for High Speed Passenger rail -- the NEC between Washington and Boston; due to Amtrak owning the entire stretch.

Elsewhere; Amtrak has to deal with freight railroads who own the track. The best you'll get out of that is a more consistent 75 MPH by better scheduling so the track is open more of the time; and less time spent waiting on sidings for freights to pass by Amtrak.

[Bakustra]

Ohio didn't put John Kasich —who declared that high-speed passenger rail "is not in Ohio's future

And it isn't in any other state's future. There's only one place suitable in the US for High Speed Passenger rail -- the NEC between Washington and Boston; due to Amtrak owning the entire stretch.

Elsewhere; Amtrak has to deal with freight railroads who own the track. The best you'll get out of that is a more consistent 75 MPH by better scheduling so the track is open more of the time; and less time spent waiting on sidings for freights to pass by Amtrak.

Shep, there is no such thing as a Principle of Conservation of Track. You could always build more for high-speed passenger rail, and would have to for maglev trains or other new developments. But that's impossible, right?

There is no serious or systematic hysteria industry on the left. There most definitely is on the right. False equivalency is bullshit.

The laughable words of a fanatic, sir. And definitely untrue. The left has a massive hysteria machine, just like the right. Remember when we lost the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act turned the US into a police state? Wait, neither of those things happened, regardless of what I heard from commentators, politicians, and the media.

If you think that the Democratic Party, one of the largest and most powerful organizations on the planet, doesn't use media manipulation and it's own brand of manufactured hysteria, you're just fooling yourself. Actually, it's that kind of political blindness- where you're always right and the other side is just stupid or mislead- which is REALLY fucking up this country. No Republicans can admit that their politicians are often corrupt and incompetent, and no Democrats can admit the same about their own party. That's the reason the systemic inefficiency in modern US politics isn't getting addressed, that's the reason our financial plan is to spend more money than we have pretty much forever- because it's always "their" fault.

You can't really say that the Democratic Party are all that leftist, frankly, and you sure as hell can't say that there's a significant anarchist, socialist, or green voice in our media. What's present for the genuine left is a handful of magazines and newspapers, with slightly more bloggers. Hardly a hysteria machine except for the carefully sheltered. Of course, I still agree with the overall message, but distorting the American political landscape fast approaches dirty pool.

[Thirdfain]

You can't really say that the Democratic Party are all that leftist, frankly, and you sure as hell can't say that there's a significant anarchist, socialist, or green voice in our media.

Or in our whole country, really- The Democratic Party is certainly leftist for American politics, which I hardly need to tell you lean towards what Europeans would consider the right. There isn't a significant anarchist, socialist, or green voice in our media because there aren't significant numbers of anarchists, socialists, or greens in the United States.

If a real socialist party ever became large and powerful enough to have any chance of taking power or seriously influencing the government, it would be just as happy to manipulate the media and produce propaganda as any other major political party. As evinced by the actions of extant European socialist or social-democrat parties, who get their hands just as dirty as everyone else.

What's present for the genuine left is a handful of magazines and newspapers, with slightly more bloggers. Hardly a hysteria machine except for the carefully sheltered. Of course, I still agree with the overall message, but distorting the American political landscape fast approaches dirty pool.

I don't know; I have a number of friends who are socialists or anarchists, and they DO read and produce propaganda, and it is often pretty hysterical. They just don't have enough money to buy ramen, much less a TV station.

[Bakustra]

I wouldn't really say that they are. The majority of Americans support universal health care, and the idea of welfare (though the term itself is too loaded). But prominent Democrats are far more lukewarm on those matters. No matter. Centrist or leftist, the idea of reasoned politics, as an ideal or a practice, is still a good one.