Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

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Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by ray245 »

On Thanksgiving, Americans sit down to watch football, prepare for Black Friday and pay homage to the hardy band of settlers that fled the Old World and its stifling orthodoxies, pinched vistas and penury.

Ever since the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts in the 17th century, millions of people have fled the tyrannies of the European landmass (the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire, in the case of my forebears) for the relative freedom and abundance of America.

The difference between the Old World and New World remains on stark display this week. It might not be Morning in America, but the U.S. economy is waking up from the long national nightmare of a deep recession and expensive, traumatic bailouts. Outside of housing, the data flow is generally positive. The economy is now in the sixth quarter of growth -- not rapid enough to bring unemployment down rapidly enough -- but moving in the right direction.

Significant issues remain. The U.S. has plenty of troubled banks, and states and the federal government face large deficits. The U.S. bailouts came at an extremely high cost to politicians, a very high cost to our self-esteem, a high indirect cost to savers and a less-high direct cost to taxpayers. But with the General Motors IPO, the continued sales of Citigroup stock and AIG's successful transaction, an end to most of the 2008-vintage bailouts is in sight. The U.S. economy is much better off than it was in the fall of 2008.

In Europe, where policy makers, politicians and economists smugly tut-tutted at America's subprime problems in 2007 and 2008, it's another story. The bailouts are just beginning, and the entire system seems to be falling apart. This headline says it all: "Gloom, anger spreads as European economies teeter."

How is it that in November 2010, Europe is where the U.S. was in September 2008? The travails of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, the U.K. -- ok, ok, all of Europe -- have the same root as the debacle in the U.S.: arrogant, reckless private and public bankers and the policymakers, politicians and investors that enabled their behavior. But in Europe, the agony is being compounded by the persistence of an Old World idea. The tyranny afflicting Ireland today isn't political, it's intellectual.

What we're witnessing in Europe, above all, is a failure of austerity as a means of combating deficits and bond market anxiety. From the outset, European countries, led by Germany, believed that problems in the government bond markets -- even those problems precipitated by problems in the banking sectors -- could be averted through aggressive fiscal contraction. Forget Keynes. Ignore the fact that growth is the only known miracle deficit cure. Slash spending and raise taxes, and bond markets will be less freaked out about the possibility of a government defaulting on its debt. Oh, and the banks in Germany and France that hold the debt of Greece, Spain and Ireland can avoid the pain of having to mark down the value of the bonds they hold.

What could go wrong? Everything. When a country slashes spending and raises taxes at a time of already-weak growth, it tends to reduce domestic demand. Austerity programs are prodding Greek, Irish and Spanish citizens to spend and invest less. That leads to fewer tax collections and more problem loans. Worse, the austerity-enacting European countries lack the ability to reduce the value of their common currency. The upshot: foreign demand for Greek, Irish and Spanish goods and services won't rise sharply because the Euro hasn't weakened significantly. (Greece didn't get any cheaper for U.S. tourists last summer because the Euro remained buoyant against the dollar). Austerity without a flexible currency and a stimulative monetary policy is a recipe for contraction.

This is not a trick question: Ireland and Greece's policy of huge wage cuts, public layoffs and tax increases will make it: (a) more likely that Irish and Greek mortgage holders will stay current; or (b) less likely that Irish and Greek mortgage holders will stay current? The answer, of course, is (b). And when defaults rise, lenders start to freak out, interest rates rise and the powers that be call for another round of austerity. Wash, rinse, repeat. Which is why Ireland on Wednesday unveiled another austerity plan and an expensive bailout -- just months after stress tests gave many large Irish banks a clean bill of health.

Bold prediction: this round of austerity measures will work about as well as the prior rounds did. Meanwhile, the austerity meme is spreading to Portugal and Spain, who, like Ireland and Greece, are tethered to the tough-to-devalue Euro. And it's spreading to the U.K., which is trying to get ahead of bond market problems by enacting its own austerity program.

With apologies to South Park, it's like the underpants gnome theory of economic growth:

Phase 1: Big budget cuts/tax increases.

Phase 2: ?

Phase 3: Economic growth.

In the U.S., thankfully, politicians and central bankers (and consumers) give only lip service to austerity. Yes, states and cities are slashing spending and raising some fees. But the stimulus package, the Federal Reserve's extraordinary efforts, and the likelihood of a deal that will avert tax increases on most taxpayers all show a huge bias against austerity measures. After saving and cutting back spending for two years, those who can afford to are spending again -- buying cars, appliances and holiday gifts. As the economy grinds its way out from the deep recession of 2008-2009, we can start to see the beginnings of a virtuous circle. Higher employment and economic growth support more spending, saving and investing, which produce more tax revenues and help banks repair their balance sheets. (Federal tax collections for October and November 2010 are running about 7 percent higher than for the same period in 2009).

The U.S., its policymakers and its bankers are far from perfect -- especially its bankers. And it's very easy to find fault with the choices made surrounding fiscal and monetary policy in recent years. But this Thanksgiving, I'm grateful that the New World's economic thinking isn't subject to the doctrines that are causing so much angst in the Old World.
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Wasn't the United Kingdom the one that started to bail their banks before the US?
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by TC27 »

Hmm two points come to mind:

1. The US has a ability to borrow money that European economies dont due to it being the biggest and the status of the Dollar as a reserve currency....European goverments could not keep borrowing to the same extent the US has and keep their credit ratings.

2. The Euro was introduced despite the fact that many of the poorer EU nations were not really in a position to join - the chickens have come home to roost! Ireland is an exceptional case as it has being forced to nationalise banks whose liabilities seriously stretch and exceed tha ability of the state to fund.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by J »

The writer is a moron. It's the debt, stupid. Europe has more and their banks are even more highly leveraged than those in the US.

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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by D.Turtle »

A few things: The US rebounding? LMAO.
In addition, Germany is doing quite well (the best economic situation since reunification IIRC).

The big problem is that there are several countries that are extremely indebted - which makes it that much harder to recover. In addition, a lot of private debt was switched over to government debt by the bank bailouts, thereby making it harder to reduce the overall debt load through (private) bankruptcies.

Austerity measures aren't the problem. Bailing out the banks at the expense of the taxpayer is.

Oh and lastly, I love this part: "Outside of housing, the data flow is generally positive."

Yes, housing is such a tiny part of the US economic picture, that it can be ignored...
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by J »

D.Turtle wrote:A few things: The US rebounding? LMAO.
In addition, Germany is doing quite well (the best economic situation since reunification IIRC).
Indeed.
The big problem is that there are several countries that are extremely indebted - which makes it that much harder to recover. In addition, a lot of private debt was switched over to government debt by the bank bailouts, thereby making it harder to reduce the overall debt load through (private) bankruptcies.

Austerity measures aren't the problem. Bailing out the banks at the expense of the taxpayer is.
Right again.
Oh and lastly, I love this part: "Outside of housing, the data flow is generally positive."

Yes, housing is such a tiny part of the US economic picture, that it can be ignored...
And the funny part is it's not even true, the data flow is NOT generally positive unless the company in question is a bank. Consumer spending is up because gas & food are more expensive. GDP is claimed to be up since the government is borrowing and spending 12% of GDP every year, and that spending is counted as part of the GDP. This is like claiming I'm richer & earning more because I'm using my credit card and not paying it off. Then there's the really fun stuff, such as companies increasing production while the inventory of unsold goods is increasing, this will come back to bankrupt them sometime next year.

As for housing, around 10% of all mortgages are either overdue by 90 days or more or in foreclosure. It's effectively impossible to catch up on a mortgage schedule after it's fallen behind by 3 months. So that's 10% of mortgages, or around $1.4 trillion, or 10% of GDP, gone. Likely a lot more since most of those mortgages are in the bubble areas so the size of the mortgage would be higher than average.

The writer of this article has about as much credibility as Jim Cramer, which is to say none. It's a propaganda piece, and a very poor one at that.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by someone_else »

Oh. Turtle and J said everything I wanted to say. I'll throw my support for them, then. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by FTeik »

With the American government bonds being bought by the Federal Reserve (you know, the institution that is printing the money) the explosion of the next bubble is only a question of time. Billions of dollars are overflowing the markets with no real values as counter-balance.

Yeah, great growth.

What we need is a real depression for five or ten years, so we get rid of all the baggage of people, whose only occupation is to shift money from one place to the other.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Bakustra »

FTeik wrote:With the American government bonds being bought by the Federal Reserve (you know, the institution that is printing the money) the explosion of the next bubble is only a question of time. Billions of dollars are overflowing the markets with no real values as counter-balance.

Yeah, great growth.

What we need is a real depression for five or ten years, so we get rid of all the baggage of people, whose only occupation is to shift money from one place to the other.
The Federal Reserve does not print money. Also, thinking that a lengthy depression will somehow cripple the financial industry long-term is faulty.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Essence »

[quote=J] GDP is claimed to be up since the government is borrowing and spending 12% of GDP every year, and that spending is counted as part of the GDP.[/quote]


Source?
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Beowulf »

Bakustra wrote:The Federal Reserve does not print money.
Technically, the Fed doesn't print money. Practically, it creates or destroys money. In so creating the money, it can be said to be "printing" it, in a non-literal way. Stop being a semantic nitpicker, asshole.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

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Beowulf wrote:
Bakustra wrote:The Federal Reserve does not print money.
Technically, the Fed doesn't print money. Practically, it creates or destroys money. In so creating the money, it can be said to be "printing" it, in a non-literal way. Stop being a semantic nitpicker, asshole.
Yes, because this is not a common misconception, that many non-Americans and Americans seize upon as a talking point, and which they expound upon as though it were a literal statement of fact. And that was also the sum total of my post, too, which you cleverly seized upon to decry me in such a polite, convincing way.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Tribun »

The guy who wrote the original piece must be quite a moron. After all, the US seems to be hardly on the way to recovery with their economy still struggling and their unemployment remaining on a high.

I bet he wouldn't recognise that there are big differences in Europe. Germany's economy is in high-gear (we have the highest growth rates since re-unification) and France has pulled intself out of the hole, while others like Spain are down to tears. As it comes down, four countries, which right now are ruining the reputation, have each made their own errors:
* Ireland first created a huge housing bubble, and when it bursted, had the genius idea to pay for all the debt of the banks, which ruined the government.
* Spain also had a housing bubble, which in this case was fired by the completely one-sided support for the construction industry. When the bubble bursted...
* Portugal is a more classical case, in that their economy simply can't be competetive anymore, but they are strictly against changes.
* Greece... Well, they cheated to get into the Euro-club, that should say everything.

Btw., the reason I didn't mention the UK is, that their economy is such a hge clusterfuck, that it isn't funny any longer.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

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I believe the author has a point that austerity will not automatically lead to growth and will in all likelihood hinder it (See Ireland vs Iceland).

The response to the banking crisis should have been how the Swedish responded to their banking crisis in the early nineties, seeing how it actually worked. But that would have meant punishing greedy asshole bankers for their stupidity, and bought and paid politicians would never allow that.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Simon_Jester »

Bakustra wrote:Yes, because this is not a common misconception, that many non-Americans and Americans seize upon as a talking point, and which they expound upon as though it were a literal statement of fact. And that was also the sum total of my post, too, which you cleverly seized upon to decry me in such a polite, convincing way.
How is it a misconception, anyway? The Fed not owning a printing press is totally irrelevant in an era when the vast majority of all money is a number on a computer that doesn't exist as a physical dollar bill anywhere.

Your original statement was true only in the misleadingly literal sense of "they do not own a printing press, someone else prints dollar bills." Only in that sense can we say that the Federal Reserve doesn't have what, in a blunter era, would be called "a license to print money." They can will money into existence and drop it into banks' reserves- the fact that no dollar bills are created is entirely beside the point, because the sum total of dollars in the economy still increases.

Your other point, of course, is valid: a major depression won't kill the US's outsized financial industry, or at least won't kill it faster than it kills everything else in the economy.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by D.Turtle »

The thing is, I don't think it comes down to the difference between austerity or stimulus spending.

Instead, I think it depends on what is done with the banks and all the debt.

Get rid of large parts of the debt at the cost of the bank, and you have a short and (very) sharp downturn after which the economy can start off again. Keep the debt, and you have a much harder job of restarting the economy - not impossible, but harder.

Stimulus spending or austerity measures can both work. Its just a question of what they are aimed at and what is done with all the debt in the system.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Bernkastel »

Well, I should have pulled the page down properly before I started reading Tribun's post. Before I saw the last part, I was amazed that the UK was not on the list. Then I saw the last sentence.

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As for the OP, I'd seen J put that chart up before and I was aware of how well Germany was doing before the OP was posted. I was also aware of the unemployment situation in America. Given that I'm not that bright when it comes to economic matters, it is pretty bad when I can look at a piece and say that it's incorrect.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

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D.Turtle wrote:The thing is, I don't think it comes down to the difference between austerity or stimulus spending.

Instead, I think it depends on what is done with the banks and all the debt.

Get rid of large parts of the debt at the cost of the bank, and you have a short and (very) sharp downturn after which the economy can start off again. Keep the debt, and you have a much harder job of restarting the economy - not impossible, but harder.

Stimulus spending or austerity measures can both work. Its just a question of what they are aimed at and what is done with all the debt in the system.
When has austerity worked? The only examples people can cite usually have a trade partner whose economy is booming.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Bakustra »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Bakustra wrote:Yes, because this is not a common misconception, that many non-Americans and Americans seize upon as a talking point, and which they expound upon as though it were a literal statement of fact. And that was also the sum total of my post, too, which you cleverly seized upon to decry me in such a polite, convincing way.
How is it a misconception, anyway? The Fed not owning a printing press is totally irrelevant in an era when the vast majority of all money is a number on a computer that doesn't exist as a physical dollar bill anywhere.

Your original statement was true only in the misleadingly literal sense of "they do not own a printing press, someone else prints dollar bills." Only in that sense can we say that the Federal Reserve doesn't have what, in a blunter era, would be called "a license to print money." They can will money into existence and drop it into banks' reserves- the fact that no dollar bills are created is entirely beside the point, because the sum total of dollars in the economy still increases.

Your other point, of course, is valid: a major depression won't kill the US's outsized financial industry, or at least won't kill it faster than it kills everything else in the economy.
It's misleading because they "create" money by buying and selling securities. But they don't issue government securities, which until recently was their primary control over the economy. So they generally only create money in conjunction with the Treasury who sells the securities and the investors who sell to them. The supply is such that they could almost certainly inject massive amounts of money, but they cannot just wave a magic wand and make money appear either.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Eleas »

My thoughts.
  1. The notion of "Europe" as some sort of homogenous counterpart to the US is beyond ridiculous. But it's useful and comforting to people so divorced from reality that they view world-spanning catastrophes as games of one-upmanship.
  2. The US is doing better... exactly how? From where I'm standing, it sounds as if America as a whole is bleeding out. The US citizens I hear from (including the good people on this board) certainly don't seem to be rejoicing when compared to the Europeans. But I can certainly buy the idea that a certain segment of American population - those allowed to speak as full Americans in the media, without recrimination or disdain - are comparatively well off. The ones still holding jobs. The ones with families that they can support and still have time to plan their next vacation to Hawaii. The ones... who still count themselves amongst the dwindling ranks of Successful People.
  3. Thanksgiving simply isn't the symbol of robust health that the article's author so clearly wants it to be. It's symptomatic of the opposite; it's what happens when you cut people off from ridiculous levels of affluence before telling them it's Christmastime. So people go on insane spending sprees because they strive to somehow recapture the sensation of being able to gorge without restraint, and because it's a good way of keeping up with the Joneses. Not rocket science, this - any more obvious, and we'd have the gift wars of the Polynesian tribes.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by TC27 »

Btw., the reason I didn't mention the UK is, that their economy is such a hge clusterfuck, that it isn't funny any longer.
The UK economy is flawed no doubt but doesnt belong on that list because it is not in danger at the momnent of being downgraded or defaulting.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Starglider »

TC27 wrote:The UK economy is flawed no doubt but doesnt belong on that list because it is not in danger at the momnent of being downgraded or defaulting.
The UK has a relatively favorable debt maturity schedule. Frankly if and when we get to the point of a UK forced debt restructuring and/or hyperinflationary monetisation, it will be a sideshow as the entire world economy will be in the process of collapsing.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Andrew J. »

What would be the consequences of one or more of the PIGS defaulting on its debt? The only country I know of that defaulted in the relatively recent past is Argentina, which seemed to come out of it OK, but obviously in this situation there would be wider implications for the Eurozone.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Thanas »

Depends on who it is. Basically, everything can get written off except in the case of Spain. If Spain goes under, that is a real problem.

Note that this is a huge "IF".
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by J »

As mentioned above if Spain goes it's big trouble. With the other countries it depends on who owns all the debts & derivatives products and how those debts & derivatives are handled in the event of a default. It is possible in theory to contain the problem if all the correct measures are taken promptly and decisively. Banks which are rendered insolvent by the sovereign default will have to be resolved with cramdowns & debt to equity conversions and nationalized if needed as a last resort, derivatives contracts will have to be netted out and/or voided which may result in further insolvent banks requiring resolution. A temporary banking system closure may be required if enough financials are bankrupted by the default.

Unfortunately I do not believe the political will to carry out these actions exists and we will instead see further bailouts. The problem with bailouts is they do not address the underlying problems to any real extent, at the same time it allows speculators (George Soros, Goldman-Sachs, sovereign wealth funds, etc.) to further destabilize the PIGS for their own profit.
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Re: Why Europe struggles as U.S. rebounds

Post by Thanas »

The EU is actually working on a model of state insolvency and putting the banks to task, the problem is that due to current treaties it cannot be implemented before 2013.
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