Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

Well if there's one thing I never expected them to actually discover any credible evidence for... it was Atlantis. There are over 93 related news articles out today at last count....Truth is stranger than fiction apparently:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20042489-71.html
Scientist: We've found Atlantis (maybe)
by Chris Matyszczyk Font sizePrintE-mailShare48 comments .Share 425 This is it. No, really. I know you might have been temporarily fooled two years ago when it seemed as if the Lost City of Atlantis had turned up on Google Earth.

But this time it's serious. Really serious. How do I know? Well, it's on the National Geographic Channel.

According to Reuters, tomorrow night the channel will reveal the work of Richard Freund, a professor at the University of Hartford, Conn., and his international team of Atlantis-seekers.

You will be wondering where Atlantis truly is. Throughout history there has been speculation that it was somewhere near Southern Spain. The Google Earth rumor placed it 600 miles west of the Canary Islands--off the west coast of Africa.

Using satellite photos, Professor Freunds and his freunds say they've found the remains of a city, just north of Cadiz in Spain. They say that it has the multiringed characteristics that many associate with the legendary Atlantis. And they say that it was wiped out by a tsunami.

(Credit: Screenshot: Chris Matyszczyk/CNET) The researchers spent two years using a variety of technological tools--deep-ground radar and digital mapping, for example--to locate their nirvana.

Freund told Reuters that, though he can't know for sure (yet) whether this is the lost city, there is some hope. "We found something that no one else has ever seen before, which gives it a layer of credibility, especially for archeology, that makes a lot more sense," he said.

Freund believes that the residents of Atlantis managed to escape the tsunami's worst and created more Atlantis-type settlements in the central regions of Spain. He bases this on his discovery of several more so-called memorial cities 150 miles inland from what he now believes might be the original Atlantis.

Of course, much of this research team's claim to fame will depend on whether it can match its discovery of these geological formations with descriptions that Plato left behind some 2,600 years ago.

Plato, you'll recall, described Atlantis as having been wiped out overnight. He also called it a naval power and "an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Hercules." These pillars are believed to have referred to the Straits of Gibraltar, a place where, these days, if you land by plane, it then has to cross a car-lined street before taking you to the gate.

Personally, I'm not sure how much we can trust Plato. We tend to glorify writers of the distant past. But these people were entertainers just as much as writers today. Who knows what traditions he was leaning on when writing his own literature?

Still, everyone wants legends to become realities, so that those realities can become even bigger legends.

And there's no reason that the channel which brings you beast hunters and shark stalkers shouldn't bring you the finders of the Lost City of Atlantis, is there?

.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20042 ... z1Ga4fjZ1U
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Really? This is legit.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

Really? This is legit.
Surprisingly...yes. :D

While it is NOT proof that it is Atlantis....it's the most credible evidence so far that it might be. The one thing Atlantis always had going for it compared to many other legendary places that were almost certainly mythical is that Plato discussed it in an oratory that seemed to be delivered in absolute seriousness. It's even in the exact location he said it was. It's baffled people for centuries...many just assumed he was making it up as a teaching allegory. Looks like he may have been telling the truth after all.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Or a greatly exaggerated version of the truth.

I think everyone should start off taking this with a grain of salt; Atlantis candidates have been named before. Aside from Plato, we really never had much in the way of evidence that Atlantis ever existed- and remember that a number of ancient Greek writers did outright make up things about foreign countries, like Herodotus. So while this sunken ruin might exist, we should wait for a lot more information on its age and whether anything about it fits other civilizations of the time before committing to a "Holy crap this was Atlantis!" line.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

I'm sure that anyone familiar with this board would find it redundant to say it needs to be taken with a grain of salt Simon_Jester. :wink:
We probably have one of the highest ratios of skeptics compared to most any other forum on the internet. I'm cautiously intrigued just because it's in the right location...it's been discovered by reputable science methodology and people who seem to be credible and not pseudoscience kooks. It's definitely SOMETHING of interest even if it's just an ancient city with no relation whatsoever to Atlantis.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Thanas »

Freund, Richard Ph.D., Jewish Theological Seminary. Director of the Maurice Greenberg Center for Judaic Studies. Related Research and Teaching Interests: The Archaeology of the Land of Israel, Biblical Studies, Jewish Ethics and Philosophy. Academic Discipline: History.

Really now? I believe it when real ancient historians agree on this. It is also telling that the findings are not published in peer reviewed journals at all, but instead on a channel that has no credibility at all in the relevant field. This guy has shown no knowledge of Atlantis, he is not a specialist in Plato, Greek archeology or the western mediterranean and the criteria he applies to Atlantis are the same dozen of other have used before.

My guess is that this is some already-discovered city that the public does not know about, but that is widely known in the relevant professional circles already.


Oh, btw, if you cannot understand the author is being sarcastic.....
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

Ah! That's an interesting new piece of information. I wasn't aware of his background. It just described him as a professor from a university in one article. However to be fair...he was also accompanied by others of note:

"An international team of researchers -including three Canadian scientists who specialize in imaging buried ruins -says it may have discovered the site of the fabled lost city of Atlantis in the remote marshlands of southwest Spain.

Alberta geophysicist Paul Bauman, along with two colleagues from Calgary-based WorleyParsons Canada, conducted various underground probes as part of a U.S.-led investigation aimed at solving one of the world's most enduring archeological mysteries.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Evidence+mo ... z1GaPWNTaF"

Also it's fair to point out that his religious beliefs are irrelevant to whether or not this discovery is Atlantis. In fact they are incongruous with Jewish religion in any way, so it's not like he has any motivational reason for Atlantis to be proved.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Justforfun000 wrote:Ah! That's an interesting new piece of information. I wasn't aware of his background. It just described him as a professor from a university in one article. However to be fair...he was also accompanied by others of note:

"An international team of researchers -including three Canadian scientists who specialize in imaging buried ruins -says it may have discovered the site of the fabled lost city of Atlantis in the remote marshlands of southwest Spain.

Alberta geophysicist Paul Bauman, along with two colleagues from Calgary-based WorleyParsons Canada, conducted various underground probes as part of a U.S.-led investigation aimed at solving one of the world's most enduring archeological mysteries.
These are not guys of note, they are mere technicians. Not historians, not archeologists, not having any degrees in the relevant fields either.
Also it's fair to point out that his religious beliefs are irrelevant to whether or not this discovery is Atlantis. In fact they are incongruous with Jewish religion in any way, so it's not like he has any motivational reason for Atlantis to be proved.
I made no point regards his beliefs, just his qualifications. There is nothing in his vita or professional occupation that makes him an authority on the subject. Has he done substantial research in the formation of cities in Spain? Has he done substantial research into Plato?

It would be one thing, if, for example, experts in the settlements of the Iberians, Phoenicians etc. or in prehistoric Spain would be part of this, and if the results are open for peer review. But there are none. This is a farce, and a bad one at that. We've got mere amateurs clumsily trying to fit evidence to a specific theory. It is just going to be another "look at me, I found atlantis" documentary which will cause headaches for the professionals and which will be ignored after one year or so.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Waitaminute.

Ruins near the mouth of the Guadalquivir River...

That's not Atlantis. That's Tartessos- another city referenced in ancient Greek records, but (as I understand it) the exact site of which was lost to archaeology thanks to the city having been built in a river delta and eventually buried in mud.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Jawawithagun »

But this time it's serious. Really serious. How do I know? Well, it's on the National Geographic Channel.
Every time I come across that channel there's some documentary about biblical history on. Excuse me if I don't take it all that seriously.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

Thanas Wrote:
It would be one thing, if, for example, experts in the settlements of the Iberians, Phoenicians etc. or in prehistoric Spain would be part of this, and if the results are open for peer review. But there are none. This is a farce, and a bad one at that. We've got mere amateurs clumsily trying to fit evidence to a specific theory. It is just going to be another "look at me, I found atlantis" documentary which will cause headaches for the professionals and which will be ignored after one year or so.
You may be right. It certainly isn't my field...but it'd be pretty cool if it turned out to be the case. :mrgreen:
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Justforfun000 wrote:You may be right. It certainly isn't my field...but it'd be pretty cool if it turned out to be the case. :mrgreen:
It would also be cool if I'd get a time machine. But that too is silly speculation.

Simon_Jester wrote:Waitaminute.

Ruins near the mouth of the Guadalquivir River...

That's not Atlantis. That's Tartessos- another city referenced in ancient Greek records, but (as I understand it) the exact site of which was lost to archaeology thanks to the city having been built in a river delta and eventually buried in mud.
Tartessos immediately came to my mind as well, but then I thought these guys wouldn't be that incompetent and brazen liars that they would try to market it as a new find or Atlantis. Maybe they are, but this would take some serious balls which, if true, should lead to Freund to lose his job if the university he serves has any integrity at all.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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EDIT: I also feel I should expand on "Atlantis" a bit. Ancient writers did not use Atlantis as a true story. It is a fable, certainly not history like Thukydikes etc. Nobody in Antiquity took it seriously, only the modern age does for some stupid reason.

I'd be like people searching for District 13 in 2000 years or so.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Thanas wrote:EDIT: I also feel I should expand on "Atlantis" a bit. Ancient writers did not use Atlantis as a true story. It is a fable, certainly not history like Thukydikes etc. Nobody in Antiquity took it seriously, only the modern age does for some stupid reason.

I'd be like people searching for District 13 in 2000 years or so.
I was going to say something similar, that Atlantis was never meant to be a real place. Saying you may have "discovered' Atlantis today is doubly doubious as most peoples conception of Atlantis is of a magiclly advanced place that may have been founded by aliens had nuclear power, robots, antigravity and other nonsense of the like. So saying that you 'found Atlantis' I am sure will have some yahoos going "Where are the flying saucers?"
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Thanas wrote:Tartessos immediately came to my mind as well, but then I thought these guys wouldn't be that incompetent and brazen liars that they would try to market it as a new find or Atlantis. Maybe they are, but this would take some serious balls which, if true, should lead to Freund to lose his job if the university he serves has any integrity at all.
Initially I was confused about the site. Once I spotted "Guadalquivir River," that rang my alarm bells since that's right where the much better documented Tartessian civilization (which we've already found plenty of artifacts from, along with literary references in the ancient world) was located.
Thanas wrote:EDIT: I also feel I should expand on "Atlantis" a bit. Ancient writers did not use Atlantis as a true story. It is a fable, certainly not history like Thukydikes etc. Nobody in Antiquity took it seriously, only the modern age does for some stupid reason.

I'd be like people searching for District 13 in 2000 years or so.
Yeah.

The closest that even I can imagine Atlantis being to 'true' is as a mythic version of stories which are themselves distortions of more conventional "city which sank into the waves" scenarios. The big name I've heard associated with that would be the eruption of Thera in the late Bronze Age. A big enough volcanic event along those lines could plausibly lead to tidal waves that would destroy coastal cities of the era. Combined with other factors preventing resettlement, it would be easy enough for that to give rise to "I heard a story of a city which sank into the sea one day because the inhabitants displeased the gods!" myths all over the Mediterranean.

There were certainly plenty of cases of ancient cities being destroyed after a natural disaster, invasion, or combination of the two, and they weren't always rebuilt on the same site. Given the unreliable transmission of information over long distances and timescales in the ancient world, it's no surprise that 'lost city' myths would end up circulating.

EDIT: It occurs to me that "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" was about as far as you could go from classical Greece while remaining within the bounds of the known world. Within the Mediterranean of that time there were fairly reliable trade networks running the entire length of the ocean, but much beyond that the land rapidly became terra incognita. Sure, you might occasionally find a person who'd gone farther than that, like Hanno and Himilco's voyages along the Atlantic coasts of Africa and Europe respectively, but knowledge of what one might find out there would get very vague, and you might well run into contradictory accounts or outright lies spread by sailors who claimed to have been there.

If you were going to create a legend of a sunken city that achieved amazing heights of advancement and then sank beneath the waves for displeasing the gods, you'd want to set it "long ago and far away." And "far away" would be "beyond the pillars of Hercules-" farther than anyone in your audience was ever likely to go or imagine going.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

While Thanas may be correct..I have to nitpick something he appears to be mistaken about.

Thanas Wrote:

"These are not guys of note, they are mere technicians. Not historians, not archeologists, not having any degrees in the relevant fields either."

Apparently there were others that were involved and by your own quote above, you would find them relevant?

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/13/has-l ... ish-marsh/
His team's search began in 2008 with a space satellite photograph showing what looked to be a submerged city in Spain's Dona Ana Park. In 2009 and 2010, Freund's researchers worked with Spanish archaeologists and geologists to explore beneath the mud flats using radar and imaging.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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I was going to say something similar, that Atlantis was never meant to be a real place. Saying you may have "discovered' Atlantis today is doubly doubious as most peoples conception of Atlantis is of a magiclly advanced place that may have been founded by aliens had nuclear power, robots, antigravity and other nonsense of the like. So saying that you 'found Atlantis' I am sure will have some yahoos going "Where are the flying saucers?"
Yes, this is the other side of the coin. Taken purely as a possible ancient city that was wiped out by a natural disaster, it's at least plausible...but Atlantis has been bastardized into a completely fantastical place by morons writing the most unbelievable claptrap imaginable over the last century in particular.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Justforfun000 wrote:Apparently there were others that were involved and by your own quote above, you would find them relevant?

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/13/has-l ... ish-marsh/
His team's search began in 2008 with a space satellite photograph showing what looked to be a submerged city in Spain's Dona Ana Park. In 2009 and 2010, Freund's researchers worked with Spanish archaeologists and geologists to explore beneath the mud flats using radar and imaging.
Not unless I know their qualifications and involvement. The legitimate spanish archeologist community is very tight-knit, so unless I know their names I cannot say I am overly impressed.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Simon_Jester »

In the case of Tartessos, there may well not have been a natural disaster that wiped out the city in any single decisive sense. It may have been something quite prosaic like the harbor silting up over a few generations and merchants getting tired of running aground in the mudbanks along the river. Eventually people might have just left, or became poor enough that they dispersed into the countryside to adopt a subsistence lifestyle, with the city site gradually sinking into the mud of the river delta over the next several centuries.

Then again, maybe there was a natural disaster- when a river shifts its course near a delta port city, you may get a lot more floods than you used to. Maybe what killed Tartessos was a series of major floods that rendered the city uninhabitable, or a freak storm that swamped the place a la Hurricane Katrina.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Excavations of Tartessos would still be of considerable value to our knowledge of the ancient world, to put it mildly. I immediately assumed Tartessos was what they had found when I heard the location, too.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Frank Hipper »

I missed the first half of the National Geographic documentary last night, but these guys are saying that Tarshish, Tartessos, and Atlantis are all one and the same...extraordinary claim without that ever-so-elusive extraordinary evidence.

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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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Frank Hipper wrote:I missed the first half of the National Geographic documentary last night, but these guys are saying that Tarshish, Tartessos, and Atlantis are all one and the same...extraordinary claim without that ever-so-elusive extraordinary evidence.
Yep. Called it. Hack idiocy from hacks. I wonder how this guy ever got a reputable degree.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Dalton »

Thanas wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I missed the first half of the National Geographic documentary last night, but these guys are saying that Tarshish, Tartessos, and Atlantis are all one and the same...extraordinary claim without that ever-so-elusive extraordinary evidence.
Yep. Called it. Hack idiocy from hacks. I wonder how this guy ever got a reputable degree.
He went to the Jewish Theological Seminary?
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Excavations of Tartessos would still be of considerable value to our knowledge of the ancient world, to put it mildly. I immediately assumed Tartessos was what they had found when I heard the location, too.
Same here.

Too bad these guys sound like hacks.
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Re: Atlantis - Maybe not a myth?

Post by Justforfun000 »

You know, it's a shame..because the news is so misleading. I even did a search to see if I could find any news articles on this with the words "skeptics", "debunkers", "unlikely"...and I forget what else...trying to find some balanced point of view..and every report including very well known, relatively reputable news sources like Reuters are just making it sound very authentic, believable...even PRESUMPTIOUS that this is a pretty valid claim.

I'm usually very cautious these days in what I read and it's one of the reasons I love posting on this site. I always know I'm going to hear a much more critical evaluation than anywhere else. Thanks guys for bringing it more into perspective...

Whether or not it's "Atlantis", or even some other ancient city, at least it's an exciting discovery. Always great to find brand new archeological discoveries. I'll be anxiously awaiting the story to come..
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
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