60kt worth of Russian arms depot ablaze.

[weemadando]

...and the population of the surrounding area, some 28k are being evacuated.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 235182.htm

Posting from mobile so eff tags.

[PeZook]

What is it with fire and Russian arms depots?

[folti78]

What is it with fire and Russian arms depots?

Piss poor adherence to procedures by underpaid people, old infrastructure with poor maintenance.
Also some of those people sold off arms or ordenance illegally and this a way they try to cover it up.

[K. A. Pital]

What is it with fire and Russian arms depots?

Piss poor adherence to procedures by underpaid people, old infrastructure with poor maintenance.
Also some of those people sold off arms or ordenance illegally and this a way they try to cover it up.

The latter mostly. When they steal ordnance or sell it illegaly (which they do on an unimaginable scale now that the USSR is no more, "Lord of War" wasn't an exaggeration when the arms dealer kissed Gorby's birth mark, hahah). Then they set the place up on fire and everything explodes, making inventarization impossible. Voila, any and all accusations of illegal sales or stealing fall apart at the point of "lack of evidence".

If anyone wonders, yeah the KGB FSB keeps files on such events (or so their guy told me). However, since entire depots explode, it is impossible to pin up any of the suspected criminals.

[Zaune]

The latter mostly. When they steal ordnance or sell it illegaly (which they do on an unimaginable scale now that the USSR is no more, "Lord of War" wasn't an exaggeration when the arms dealer kissed Gorby's birth mark, hahah). Then they set the place up on fire and everything explodes, making inventarization impossible. Voila, any and all accusations of illegal sales or stealing fall apart at the point of "lack of evidence".

If anyone wonders, yeah the FSB keeps files on such events (or so their guy told me). However, since entire depots explode, it is impossible to pin up any of the suspected criminals.

Not for theft, perhaps, but is there any reason they couldn't bring charges of arson? You can't set off military ordnance with nothing but a carelessly discarded cigarette end.

[PeZook]

Not for theft, perhaps, but is there any reason they couldn't bring charges of arson? You can't set off military ordnance with nothing but a carelessly discarded cigarette end.

That depends on how lax security is. If people can indeed smuggle hardware out of these depots en masse, it should be a relatively trivial matter to start a fire without getting detected.

[Sidewinder]

What are the chances these illegal arms will be used against Russians, e.g., by Chechen seperatists? (I'm reminded of a scene in 9th Company, in which the protagonist receives a machine gun with a bent barrel, because the armorer was selling functional weapons to the Mujaheddin.)

[Zaune]

That depends on how lax security is. If people can indeed smuggle hardware out of these depots en masse, it should be a relatively trivial matter to start a fire without getting detected.

I was referring more to forensic examination of the wreckage in order to determine the cause of the fire. An accelerant would leave a residue, though with all the explosives cooking off it might be difficult to detect, and the automatic fire-suppression systems would have to be either neglected for a long period or outright sabotaged.

[Sea Skimmer]

Not for theft, perhaps, but is there any reason they couldn't bring charges of arson? You can't set off military ordnance with nothing but a carelessly discarded cigarette end.

Well keep in mind while sealed up metal encased stuff like artillery shells and small arms cartridges are somewhat fire resistant, bulk explosives, land mines charges, powder charges, fuses, detonators and that sort of thing you will find in a major ammo dump are far more sensitive, all the more so when the stuff is very old and the explosives may have begun to crystallize and normally is packed in wooden crates...... If you have an unfortified warehouse with say 100 tons of gunpowder in it that’s been poorly handled then just about anything can set it off in the end, a cigarette isn’t out of reason if powder has spilled on the floor from say, mice eating the powder bags, which I bet happens at these ill maintained dumps. A lot of Russian ammunition depots are based around warehouses separated by berms or nothing at all, rather then numerous earth covered concrete bunkers so any source of ignition can turn into a massive series of explosions that wipes out the entire site.

The theory of a deliberate blast to hide theft is pretty likely; but ammunition safety was never a high priority with Soviet weapons or storage. In the 1980s the Soviet Northern Fleet had its entire ammunition stocks including hundreds of heavy missiles totally destroyed by an accidental explosion for example, and that's with specialist high value ammunition! Stuff like this was pretty damn common in the west until after WW2 as well and downright awful in WW1. I can't find the current depot in google earth yet in ordered to examine the nature of the storage buildings.

[Zaune]

Well keep in mind while sealed up metal encased stuff like artillery shells and small arms cartridges are somewhat fire resistant, bulk explosives, land mines charges, powder charges, fuses, detonators and that sort of thing you will find in a major ammo dump are far more sensitive, all the more so when the stuff is very old and the explosives may have begun to crystallize and normally is packed in wooden crates...... If you have an unfortified warehouse with say 100 tons of gunpowder in it that’s been poorly handled then just about anything can set it off in the end, a cigarette isn’t out of reason if powder has spilled on the floor from say, mice eating the powder bags, which I bet happens at these ill maintained dumps. A lot of Russian ammunition depots are based around warehouses separated by berms or nothing at all, rather then numerous earth covered concrete bunkers so any source of ignition can turn into a massive series of explosions that wipes out the entire site.

Point taken. I'd been assuming that bulk explosives and fuses etc were stored with combat engineering equipment rather than general munitions, and that storage and handling of high explosives was rather better-organised than that even in Russia.

But surely the Russians wouldn't conscript anyone stupid enough to smoke in a warehouse full of gunpowder, would they? There must surely be some kind of intelligence requirement?

[folti78]

Well keep in mind while sealed up metal encased stuff like artillery shells and small arms cartridges are somewhat fire resistant, bulk explosives, land mines charges, powder charges, fuses, detonators and that sort of thing you will find in a major ammo dump are far more sensitive, all the more so when the stuff is very old and the explosives may have begun to crystallize and normally is packed in wooden crates...... If you have an unfortified warehouse with say 100 tons of gunpowder in it that’s been poorly handled then just about anything can set it off in the end, a cigarette isn’t out of reason if powder has spilled on the floor from say, mice eating the powder bags, which I bet happens at these ill maintained dumps. A lot of Russian ammunition depots are based around warehouses separated by berms or nothing at all, rather then numerous earth covered concrete bunkers so any source of ignition can turn into a massive series of explosions that wipes out the entire site.

Point taken. I'd been assuming that bulk explosives and fuses etc were stored with combat engineering equipment rather than general munitions, and that storage and handling of high explosives was rather better-organised than that even in Russia.

But surely the Russians wouldn't conscript anyone stupid enough to smoke in a warehouse full of gunpowder, would they? There must surely be some kind of intelligence requirement?

You'd be surprised how fast thing like these are shed by people after being put through a few months of conscript service. Especially when their non-conscript superiors are visibly not giving shit about it or worse doing the same safety violations.

[Sea Skimmer]

Point taken. I'd been assuming that bulk explosives and fuses etc were stored with combat engineering equipment rather than general munitions, and that storage and handling of high explosives was rather better-organised than that even in Russia.

Large ammunition depots segregate ammunition types within the depot; but they’ll have everything but nukes and chemical weapons somewhere on the site so that every depot can simultaneously issue needed types of ammo if need be. Otherwise you hit bottlenecks on how fast you can ship out the ammo from the depot sites. Non trivial problem. Also items like artillery shells are not necessarily stored physically loaded with explosives. They have better shelf lives if you store the metal shells separate with the bulk explosives wrapped up in crates and poured in on demand. This also means if the explosives get old you can dispose of the explosives (usually by exploding them, ammo dumps normally have pits somewhere for this purpose) while keeping the more expensive metal components for future use.

You don’t store anything right with vehicles or field forces in peacetime specifically to avoid the risk of accidental explosions wiping out your men and equipment. Normally field troops would only have basic small arms ammo handy, everything else is going to be in bunkers or other isolated depot buildings, even if a say battalion size tank base might only have a few.

But surely the Russians wouldn't conscript anyone stupid enough to smoke in a warehouse full of gunpowder, would they? There must surely be some kind of intelligence requirement?

With good officer supervision people wont smoke. Without good officers in charge I’d expect idiots to be idiots around ammunition in any military. Russia has conscripts and a military in generally poor shape. Anything could have happened.