Recent mob violence/riots

[Broomstick]

In addition to the recent London rioting, there have been additional incidents of mob violence over here in the states.

- This weekend a crowd of what was described as "hundreds" of youth rampaged outside the Wisconsin State Fair, beating random victims. The attackers were uniformly black and shouting racial insults at the victims, who were all white.

- A similar mob scene occurred over July 4 in Milwaukee, but apparently escaped major news reporting.

- This weekend Chicago also had a mob attacking victims near Watertower Place despite local police presence. There have been several so-called "flash mobs" attacking people in Chicago over the summer.

- while researching this phenomena I also turned up that it was happening in Greensboro, North Carolina and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I have found references to similar occurrences in Missouri, Massachusetts, and New Jersey though I have not found details.

I note several features about these incidents:

- Although the major media outlets have avoided talking about it, the perpetrators are young black men. The victims are almost always white, and if not white, they aren't black either.

- Not brought up, but something easily found with a little digging, is that young black men are hardest hit in this economy. The exact number varies depending on who you ask, but a frequent number is 33% unemployed. In some urban neighborhoods rates are being reported as over 50%.

- Idle young men, of whatever ethnicity, are a recipe for unrest. Large groups of idle young men are a potential riot (though of course, not all such groups erupt into violence).

- Personally, I don't find it too perplexing that idle young men who can't find work and are discriminated against on various levels would lash out at the perceived "oppressor" - that is, black youths attacking white people - but, of course, these mobs are not able to reach the real movers and shakers. They're attacking random victims who have little to no power in the greater scheme of things, and who may be just as downtrodden. Of course, that in no way excuses any of it, just explains the form in which it plays out.

Now, I find a lot of this disturbing (and not just because I'm a white person in one of those areas where young black men have a 50%+ unemployment rate). No one wants to talk about the racial element here. No one wants to discuss the problem of idle young men - and while the black men suffer worst, the unemployment rate among young white men isn't much better, as some of our SD.net members can attest. I have dreadful images of a mob of angry young black men running into a mob of angry young white men with incendiary results. Add in a mob or two of other groups - unemployed young Latinos, for example - and things could get very ugly indeed.

The thing is, the economy is one of the sparks in these fires. The racial discrimination and prejudice is nothing new, but it didn't manifest in this manner 5 years ago. It's beginning ignored, just like the problem of un- and underemployment is being ignored. Then when the fires break out everyone stands around looking surprised. No, actually, it's not surprising at all when you really look at the situation. People are desperate, angry, and stuck. Eventually, patience wears out, and the young are less patient than their elders.

So, I guess one of my questions is ... is this happening anywhere else? Not necessarily with a racial component, but mobs of angry young men engaging in random violence? Doesn't have to be a full scale riot (though if this keeps up I think those are just around the corner). Is it happening in other countries but just not reach international reporting, or is largely confined to the US?

I don't think I want to include the "Arab Spring" uprisings in this - while there is unquestionably an economic component at work there as well I think the main impetus behind those situations is different - although if anyone disagrees feel free to give your reasoning.

So... do not be surprised if full-scale riots start occurring in the US.

I also wonder how many of the same factors are at play in the recent London riot. I did read the thread on it, but I though this was enough of a tangent to have it's own thread as it's not just about London, it's about unrest in the US and anywhere else it may be occurring.

[Simon_Jester]

How does this compare to the '60s race riots? How much was the economy a factor then?

People looking back on it as a period in history tend to think of the entire period of the '50s and '60s as a single block of uninterrupted good economic times; I'm pretty sure that wasn't so.

[Big Orange]

The poorer parts of London exploding with street violence has happened for similar reasons. Also in London (and other inner city areas) there's been many years of tension between Afro-Caribbean blacks who are more assimilated into Britain and black immigrants from Africa (with the latest wave coming from Somalia).

[whackadoodle]

A list can be found here.

Nearly 100 in 2011 alone.

Not brought up, but something easily found with a little digging, is that young black men are hardest hit in this economy. The exact number varies depending on who you ask, but a frequent number is 33% unemployed. In some urban neighborhoods rates are being reported as over 50%.

Perhaps, but in most of these events, the age range of most of the participants range from junior high to high school age. What seems to be a much larger factor in this is the availability of cheap cell phones. These are mostly flash mob events, organized via text/twitter. Everyone descends on the event/store/defenseless whatever, carry out the plan (anything from using the mob to loot a store to "rhino hunting"). Someone or someones will be recording the event, and then post it to various social media sites, especially hip-hop themed ones, in the hopes of getting a lot of views and comments. this then eggs on other people to try and top all of the others. Long story short, the majority of the participants (not rioters, as there is no protest) are students, and are largely not affected by the unemployment rate.

In other words, it's a meme, just like suburban kids doing "Jackass" type videos. If you look at the list of events in the aforementioned link, dates go back to 2002, but they really explode in 2010. As these flash mobs get more MSM exposure, more kids learn about it, and more kids do it. I expect that it will play out in a couple of years, as it becomes increasingly common, and therefore increasingly lame.

[Broomstick]

How does this compare to the '60s race riots? How much was the economy a factor then?

People looking back on it as a period in history tend to think of the entire period of the '50s and '60s as a single block of uninterrupted good economic times; I'm pretty sure that wasn't so.

In the 1950's and 60's it was still entirely legal to pay blacks, women, Asians – basically, anyone who wasn't a white male – less money for the same work. This was done openly and routinely, as a matter of course. So, of course, the economic situation played into it. Not only did people who weren't white males have a harder time finding any work, they were paid less and in some cases systematically excluded from consideration. For example, it was legal for trade unions to exclude blacks. There were no women in the police world. And so on.

Even with a much lower unemployment rate, the actual fiscal situation of those on the lower strata of society was sufficient to add impetus to the rioting. The economic times were “good” in comparison to, say the Great Depression era, but were actually only good for those on the top of society: white, married Christian men.

However, during the late 60's we had the Viet Nam war going on, where kids who were too young to vote were being sent overseas by the government and were dying by the dozens and hundreds every week, and on top of that, there was the draft so a lot of those kids were being coerced to go, they were anything but volunteers.

And, of course, minorities were getting fed up with their second class (and sometimes worse) status being built into the very framework of society and law. We no longer have a war with disenfranchised draftees dying every day, and we have made some significant progress on the discrimination issues (thought obviously there's still a lot of work to do). I think the economics is a greater portion of today's problems than in the 1960's.

I should also point out that the violence of the late 1960's was much more frequent and intense - there were over 150 full blown urban riots in just 1967 alone. Not groups of 3-4 teens, but days-long uprisings involving hundreds, if not thousands, of adults burning, beating, looting, and so forth. We also had quite a few actual assassinations on top of all that.

The poorer parts of London exploding with street violence has happened for similar reasons. Also in London (and other inner city areas) there's been many years of tension between Afro-Caribbean blacks who are more assimilated into Britain and black immigrants from Africa (with the latest wave coming from Somalia).

So, would it be fair to say there is a split along ethnic lines as well as economics in London? A different split than in the US, which shouldn't surprise anyone, and of course it's not the whole of the story.

A list can be found here.

Nearly 100 in 2011 alone.

Wow. That site is both interesting and quite disturbing. That's far more incidents that I was aware of, and some of them composed of quite large groups.

Perhaps, but in most of these events, the age range of most of the participants range from junior high to high school age.

I question that. While some of the incidents clearly indicate the participants are “teens” quite a few do not. I also question if labeling some of those groups as groups of teens is inaccurate – for example, while the most recent Chicago incident says “teens”, and it's true that the first culprit apprended was, indeed, a teen, it is believed other participants were in their 20's.

What seems to be a much larger factor in this is the availability of cheap cell phones.

I also wonder if budget-cutting for community programs – everything from scouting to after-school activities to local parks and basketball courts – is also leading to young folks with little to do.

These are mostly flash mob events, organized via text/twitter. Everyone descends on the event/store/defenseless whatever, carry out the plan (anything from using the mob to loot a store to "rhino hunting").

“Rhino hunting”? That's a new one for me, what's that?

(not rioters, as there is no protest)

Is it really necessary to have something to protest for mob violence to be considered a riot?

A brief google indicates that there does not seem to be one definition of “riot” anywhere, and that a protest is not required for a mob action to be called a riot.

In other words, it's a meme, just like suburban kids doing "Jackass" type videos.

Of course, a major difference is that when a dozen kids decide to do dumb-ass Jackass type home videos the only people likely to get hurt are them. When a dozen kids decide to go out in public and punch random strangers unconcious they're involving innocent bystanders and people who did not consent to such treatment.

[Big Orange]

The poorer parts of London exploding with street violence has happened for similar reasons. Also in London (and other inner city areas) there's been many years of tension between Afro-Caribbean blacks who are more assimilated into Britain and black immigrants from Africa (with the latest wave coming from Somalia).

So, would it be fair to say there is a split along ethnic lines as well as economics in London? A different split than in the US, which shouldn't surprise anyone, and of course it's not the whole of the story.

And I've heard about some of the predominantly Afro-Caribbean British youths attacking certain shops and then getting beaten away by Turkish owners (somewhat analogeous to Chinese/Korean Americans bunkering down in their shops in the LA riots). And employment prospects for indigenous people in the London private sector are shitty when big construction projects like London Olympic facilities are mainly drafting in workers from overseas (analogeous to US foreign workers from south of the border and in both cases, IMHO, they short-circuited the economy).

[Chirios]

The poorer parts of London exploding with street violence has happened for similar reasons. Also in London (and other inner city areas) there's been many years of tension between Afro-Caribbean blacks who are more assimilated into Britain and black immigrants from Africa (with the latest wave coming from Somalia).

So, would it be fair to say there is a split along ethnic lines as well as economics in London? A different split than in the US, which shouldn't surprise anyone, and of course it's not the whole of the story.

Not really. Youth gangs especially in London are a lot more about where you live than what ethnicity you are. The main tensions seem to be between Blacks, Turks and Eastern Europeans.

[Broomstick]

OK... I'm just a little confused. I understand that young people of different nationalities may feel they have something in common, perhaps sufficiently to band together in groups based on age rather than ancestry... but then then you talk about tension between Turks, Blacks, and Eastern Europeans. Aren't those latter ethnic distinctions? Or are you saying both age/location and ethnicity is at work here?

[weemadando]

2nd and 3rd gen folks are more likely to fall into the disaffected colours of Benetton riot crews.

The 1st gen are generally more likely to still have the stronger ethnic ties.

[whackadoodle]

“Rhino hunting”? That's a new one for me, what's that?

Sorry, got that one wrong. It's actually "polar bear hunting".

[Broomstick]

Oh, that - I've heard it referred to as "the knock-out game". I suppose it doesn't matter what it's actually called, it's still despicable.

[Kodiak]

Link to Article

Curfew is taking on a whole new -- that is, more official -- meaning for teenagers and pre-teens in Philadelphia, where the mayor is combating marauding mobs of kids known as "flash mobs" by ordering anyone under 18 to be off the streets by 9 p.m. on Friday and Saturday nights in problem-plagued areas of the city.

Blaming recent violence on a "relatively small number of complete knuckleheads," Mayor Michael Nutter told a news conference Monday that increased police patrols will round up minors caught outside after the curfew hours, and that parents will be called to pick up their kids. Parents could face fines of $500 if their children are picked up, or charges of child neglect if they don't fetch their children.

The 9 p.m. curfew affects Philadelphia's Center City and University City neighborhoods, which on recent weekends have been plagued by swarms of kids -- some as young as 11 -- responding to Twitter and text messages calling for mobs to converge. The resulting crowds often wreak havoc.

On Sunday, Nutter delivered an angry lecture from a church pulpit that hinted at the crackdown, which represents a step up from the city's existing curfew for minors. "If you want to act like an idiot -- move," Nutter said, directing his comments at troublemakers as well as parents who he said aren't keeping tabs on their youngsters.

He followed up Monday by announcing the stringent new measures, which come two weeks after a recent flash-mob rampage by more than two dozen youths left one man hospitalized with a broken jaw. It's already illegal in Philadelphia for those 13 and under to be on the streets after 10 p.m. on Friday and Saturday. The curfew is midnight for those age 13 to 18. Nutter said those rules will be more strictly enforced, along with the enhanced curfews covering Center City and University City.

While Philadelphia has had more than its share of flash-mob troubles lately, it's not the only city dealing with the phenomenon sparked by the social media frenzy. A man was shot during a flash-mob flare-up in Venice last April. Not all flash mobs end badly, as passengers on a Hawaiian Airlines flight discovered in July when hula dancers began singing and dancing at 38,000 feet.

It looks like while not widespread this phenomenon IS beginning to be reported in the press.

and a link to another article HERE

[FSTargetDrone]

To add to the above, here is the article I had linked to in the London thread with some more information concerning the new curfew in Philadelphia:

Posted on Tue, Aug. 9, 2011

Nutter tightens weekend curfew on Center City

By Troy Graham

Inquirer Staff Writer

The economic and social core of the city will be off-limits to minors after 9 p.m. on weekends after Mayor Nutter announced Monday that he was expanding the city's curfew in response to "flash mobs" of marauding teenagers.

The early curfew will apply to anyone under 18 in Center City and University City, where police officers on foot, bike, and horseback will continue to be deployed in force.

Nutter also said 20 of the city's largest recreation centers would be open until 10 Friday and Saturday nights as the city searches for more "long-term, sustainable . . . safe spaces for our young people."

The mayor called the moves part of a "holistic response" to the flash mob phenomenon that has plagued the city the last two summers.

In the most recent incident, on July 29, teens beat random strangers in Center City. Among the four young males arrested in those attacks was an 11-year-old boy.

"We are not joking around. This not a game. This is not fun," Nutter said. "It is no one's idea of how to spend time in any part of the city."

The mayor attempted to balance his anger at what he called "erratic, senseless attacks" with a focus on "positive options for our young people."

"When we ignore our young people's needs, when we don't offer job opportunities, when we don't invest in their education or in their future, all of us have failed them," he said.

The announcements came a day after Nutter delivered an impassioned and personal speech from the pulpit of Mount Carmel Baptist, his church of 25 years. The mayor blistered absent fathers and neglectful parents in the black community and told troublemaking teens: "You have damaged your own race."

"I said what needed to be said, at a time that it needed to be said. And I think, quite honestly, people were ready to hear it," Nutter said Monday.

The mayor was backed at Monday's news conference by a huge contingent of city officials and leaders from the black community, including J. Whyatt Mondesire, the leader of the Philadelphia NAACP.

Mondesire said the mayor's Mount Carmel speech "took courage" to deliver, and said he supported Nutter's efforts to rein in the flash mobs.

"These are mostly African American youths, and they need to be called on it," he said. "Right now, our overwhelming concern is the safety of all Philadelphians."

The curfew will be enforced in neighborhoods where the mob attacks have occurred or where large groups of teens gather.

The boundaries where the curfew will apply in Center City are Vine Street to Bainbridge Street and the Delaware River to the Schuylkill.

In University City, the curfew will apply from Market Street to Baltimore Avenue and 38th to 43d Streets.

"If we have problems come up in other parts of the city, we'll move the grid," Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey said. "But right now, these are the areas . . . where we think we can have the greatest impact."

The previous curfew for minors between 13 and 17 had been 10:30 p.m. during the week and midnight Friday and Saturday. This past weekend, police cited a dozen teens for violating that curfew, Nutter said.

Teens can be fined up to $300 and parents can face fines of up to $500 after a child violates curfew for a second time. Nutter said he would work with City Council in the fall to write a comprehensive curfew law.

Nutter said the early curfew does not mean police will arrest any teen out after those hours.

"But if you are out wreaking havoc, if you are out causing problems, if you are out doing things you shouldn't be doing, we're going to get you off the streets," he said.

City officials promised to continue seeking harsh punishment for teens involved in the assaults and vandalism.

"When all else fails and people give up all the norms of society, they're going to deal with us," District Attorney Seth Williams said. "There will be no diversionary programs, no community service, for people who commit random acts of violence."

Nutter repeated another refrain - that flash mobs are not "just a policing problem. This is challenge for all of us as community members."

He called for community leaders and volunteers to step up to help youths, but he also issued another scolding to parents.

"It is your responsibility to know where your kids are, what they are doing, and who they are with," he said. "They are your children. You need to raise them."

The city is going to continue reaching out to teens through youth-friendly media, and a number of other initiatives are under consideration, said Jordan Harris, executive director of the city's Youth Commission.

"If we're going to tell them what they can't do, we have to tell them what they can do," he said.

Radio personalities, and North Philadelphia natives, Izzo and DJ Damage also plan to discuss flash mobs and encourage positive outlets for teens on their shows on FM 100.3 The Beat.

DJ Damage said he planned to speak to students at 15 high schools this school year.

"That's really the pledge I'm taking for the city," he said. "I support the mayor 100 percent."

Nutter said the stakes were high - flash mobs bruise the reputation and vitality of the city - and he made no apologies for saying that black teens who participate in them are harming their race.

"When [people] see that kind of behavior and activity, it is in fact damaging to all African Americans and all Philadelphians," Nutter said. "That's why I said what I said."

Also, mounted police was mentioned in the other thread. Philadelphia finally has its mounted unit now in the process of being restored:

Restored Phila. mounted police unit gets back in the saddle
August 02, 2011|By Alia Conley, Inquirer Staff Writer

Underneath the stable roof at Willow Lake Farm in Ambler, Chanthavy Hearn readies her horse, Pat, for the morning training. The newcomer to the Philadelphia Mounted Police Unit listens to veteran Dave Toth explain how to adjust the stirrups.

"When you get out in the ring, you'll have to sit on him and move them up or down," Toth says as he hooks the silver stirrup under a leather strap.

Toth knows what he's talking about. He was a member of Philadelphia's mounted police for five years before it was disbanded in 2004 because of budget cuts. Now reinstated, the unit must rebuild from scratch, gathering equipment and horses while looking for a permanent home within the city limits.

The process, including training horses and officers, takes patience and perseverance.

At the peak of the unit's 32-year tenure, it had 190 horses, but shrank as technology improved and police on bicycles replaced police on horses, says Lt. Dan McCann, the unit's commanding officer. At the time of its demise in 2004, the force had 19 horses and 17 officers. By the end of 2011, McCann hopes to have 12 horses, and in the future, 25.

An officer on a horse is worth 10 on the ground, according to Marquise Robinson, an assistant trainer. Police on horses control crowds, but also patrol parks and streets. The new unit made its debut on July Fourth with four officers on horseback on the Benjamin Franklin Parkway. The unit also patrolled South Street in July after the Greek Picnic.

Toth, 45, says he was depressed when the unit was cut. He was assigned to the airport, but is happy to be back with horses.

"Nobody ever stops learning," he says. "If you spend five years with one horse, then you work with a different horse, it's back to Square One."

Hearn, 30, is one of 13 in the mounted unit. She and five others started their 16-week training last week.

Officers need not have riding experience, though Hearn took lessons for a few months as a hobby.

"I just can't believe I'm getting paid. It's like putting together two things that I like to do together," she says. "It was always a dream of mine."

The force has seven donated horses - four from the Newark, N.J., mounted police and three from a rescue ranch in Quakertown. The Police Department has purchased four trained horses from a farm in Maryland.

After riders are able to control a horse, they can practice keeping it calm around trucks, buses, and people.

During training on this Thursday morning, Hearn enters the ring, a basketball court-size area with black gravel and dirt. Amid hens clucking and roosters crowing, four officers on horses patrol the perimeter.

The riders practice trotting without their feet in the stirrups, so they can learn to feel comfortable in the saddle, Robinson explains. While the other horses walk, Hearn and Pat trot around the ring until they reach the end of the line.

The path to build back the mounted police has been anything but smooth. When McCann got the Newark horses, he scrambled to house them.

The force first used White Pine Farm in Bucks County in March, and moved to the Ambler farm in May. Both are outside the city limits, and the drive to the Police Academy, where the unit members first report, was far.

This week, the force will move to a stable near Pennypack Park, a 15-minute commute compared with nearly an hour to Ambler.

Police and city officials have visited seven sites for a possible permanent location near Center City, West Philadelphia and lower North Philadelphia - spots where mounted police will patrol. The plan is to either renovate a stable or build one that would house 42 horses, according to Everett Gillison, deputy mayor for public safety.

The mounted police received a $350,000 federal grant from the Bureau of Justice Assistance in 2010 to cover first-year operational costs - saddles, feed, uniforms, and maintenance.

For its second year, the unit received a $100,000 state grant. The mounted police will use grants and donations for the first two years, then be included in the 2013 city budget, chief administrative officer Nola Joyce said.

Donations are welcome; on Thursday, Jimmy Binns, founder of CopWheels Inc., donated two trailers so the unit can transport six horses.

"Whenever you auction off all your stuff, you're starting from scratch," Robinson says. "Whatever people give you, you're willing to accept it."

Hearn says she is excited to go out on the streets once she finishes her training.

For now, she rides. Saddle time is the only way they can get better, she says. Even when that means failing.

She leads Pat around the ring. But Pat goes a bit fast, Hearn can't stay balanced, and as they turn the corner, she thumps to the ground and lands on her back, unhurt.

It has happened before, she says. But she has the tenacity the mounted police force has showed in its struggle to return.

"You're going to get bumped, scraped," she says. "You just have to get back on there."

Not a moment too soon and they will be used for patrol during curfew and other times.

[Big Orange]

The recent explosion of violence across England in recent days seems to have been motivated more by Class than Race, since the Midland mobs emptying the shops have mainly been uniformally white.

[Hillary]

OK... I'm just a little confused. I understand that young people of different nationalities may feel they have something in common, perhaps sufficiently to band together in groups based on age rather than ancestry... but then then you talk about tension between Turks, Blacks, and Eastern Europeans. Aren't those latter ethnic distinctions? Or are you saying both age/location and ethnicity is at work here?

I think, Broomie, it depends on the area. The original Tottenham riots appear to have been largely caused by a feeling that that black youths get a pretty raw deal from the police/government/society in general. There doesn't appear to be much politics involved in the rest of the riots - I guess you could say it's a mixture of general, unfocussed anger mixed with a very healthy dose of general vandalism and looting. The Turkish shopkeepers in Dalston were simply protecting their shops from the looters - race didn't really come into it at the time. In Ealing (my neck of the woods) it was simply a bunch of vandals who travelled here to smash up stuff (they looted a charity shop, but it was more about destruction than gain) and they are condemned by everyone of every colour and nationality.

I am sure that there are other parts of the country where race did play a part though - but you can't generalise.

[Big Orange]

The malcontent raiders in many of the inner city London areas being disproportionately non-white is because they've been disproportionately economically marginalised for generations, creating a vicious cycle of socially accepted criminality and moulding punks. That criminal getting shot was a pretext and the problems in London were underlining (and in the Paris riots from a fair few years ago, wasn't one of the major disturbances sparked when a kid got killed while being chased by the Gendarme?).

I'm quite sure those shops gettings smashed or burned were the work places and even homes of Londerners of Afro-Caribbean heritage, but sad to say the BNP and EDL must think Christmas has come early to them, even though it was the dizzying economic inbalances in the patchwork of shaply divided urban areas that really made London combust: according to a oldish Daily Mail article from last year, the current disparity between the London rich and poor is the most extreme since 18th century slavery (something must be going wrong when even the Daily Mail thinks the wide wealth gap is wrong).

[Broomstick]

I note there is some coverage in the BBC of PM Cameron's remarks this morning, with the link here. I'll be adding my own comments and opinions, and as they are opinions, others are welcome to agree or disagree:

The police admitted they got their riot tactics wrong, the prime minister has said, as he announced measures to help homeowners and businesses.

I think the UK also needs to take some measure to help those who own neither so they have less incentive to riot. This will most likely have to be a different sort of help than one would give a homeowner or businessman, of course, but you want to do more than just repairs, you want to do some prevention work.

Also - what about people who were renters and were burned out of their homes? Will there be help for them who lost everything they own, but did not own the roof over their head?

David Cameron told MPs the riots in cities across England were "criminality pure and simple", but there were "far too few police" on the streets.

He announced a crackdown on facemasks and a review of curfews during an emergency recall of Parliament.

More than 1,300 arrests have been made since the unrest began on Saturday.

Sounds like the threat to identify and arrest those participating is being made good.

The prime minister earlier chaired a meeting of the government's emergency committee Cobra to discuss the violence with cabinet ministers.

Mr Cameron told MPs that it had become clear that there had been problems in the initial police response to the disorder.

"There were simply far too few police deployed on to our streets and the tactics they were using weren't working," he told MPs

"Police chiefs have been frank with me about why this happened.

"Initially the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue - rather than essentially one of crime.

Good - it's important to find and discuss frankly what was not done well and properly so as to avoid the same mistakes next time.

"The truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge with different people doing the same thing - basically looting - in different places all at the same time."

The prime minister promised he would do "whatever it takes" to restore order to the streets as he set out a range of measures aimed at helping businesses and homeowners affected by the riots.

They included:

To look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via social media when "we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality"
Plans to look at whether wider powers of curfew and dispersal orders were needed
New powers for police to order people to remove facemasks where criminality is suspected
Courts could be given tougher sentencing powers

What, exactly, does that mean? Longer sentences as a matter of routine? That will increase Britain's prison population, which will cost money. Isn't the UK in a cost-cutting mode right now? What are the budget implications of such a measure?

Landlords could be given more power to evict criminals from social housing

While I certainly understand the motivation to evict criminals, where are they expecting these people to go? They have to sleep somewhere.

Plans to extend the system of gang injunctions across the country and build on anti-gang programmes, similar to those in the US

I'll tell you something the US has learned - you have to keep the young men busy. Young men (15-25) are the most energetic part of society, and some of them are aggressive as all hell. You have to keep the young men busy. A key component of the anti-gang measures for young men is somewhere to go and something to do. It often takes the form of sports facilities where they can work off some of that physical energy and aggression in a socially acceptable form, though it's certainly not the only form it takes. Did or did not the UK recently cut back on such facilities and funding recently? Is it possible that was a mistake? Is it possible for the UK government to admit it might have been a mistake?

As I said, in the US there are youth sports facilities, but there are also programs to try to get young people work in the summer (unfortunately, cut back recently but the protests against that in the inner cities have emphasized the "young people need something to do" argument extensively). When people have a purpose they are less inclined to trouble. The downside, right now, is that these programs have to be paid for somehow, by somebody.

There is also the fact that young people tend to be hard on the landscape - upkeep on these facilities tends to be higher than facilities used by older members of society because, well, kids aren't as responsible as older adults.

He said the government would meet the cost of "legitimate" compensation claims and the time limit for applying would increase from 14 to 42 days
A £10m Recovery Scheme to provide additional support to councils in making areas "safe, clean and clear"
A new £20m high street support scheme to help affected businesses get back up and running quickly
Plans for the government to meet the immediate costs of emergency accommodation for families made homeless

Those all sound good, the devil is in the details of how they will be implemented.

He said: "This is a time for our country to pull together.

"To the law abiding people who play by the rules, and who are the overwhelming majority in our country, I say: the fightback has begun, we will protect you, if you've had your livelihood and property damaged, we will compensate you. We are on your side.

"And to the lawless minority, the criminals who have taken what they can get, I say this: We will track you down, we will find you, we will charge you, we will punish you. You will pay for what you have done."

Meanwhile, Keith Vaz, chairman of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has told the BBC its members have voted unanimously to hold an inquiry into the causes of the riots.

That could be a very good step on the road to avoiding future unrest of this sort.

It will also look at the role of social networking, the police response and police resources.

On Wednesday, Mr Cameron said the "fightback" was under way and said every action would be taken to restore order, with contingency plans for water cannon to be available at 24 hours' notice.

It is the second time in less than a month that MPs have been recalled for an emergency session - the first was for the phone-hacking scandal at the News of the World newspaper.

In other developments:

More than 90,000 people have signed an online petition calling for anyone convicted of taking part in the riots to lose any benefits they receive

While I understand the "get tough" sentiment to that, I think there are two flaws in that thinking:
1) Not everyone who participated was on the dole. Some of the people arrested have been employed members of the community. I can only assume they are less moral than average and thought they could get away with it, the sort who can only be trusted to behave when they are being watched. If they're watched all the time they seem ethical, but when they think they're unobserved they are revealed to be amoral.

2) If you do take the dole away from people dependent on it how are they going to live? Take away all benefits and they have nowhere to sleep and nothing to eat. What do you think they're going to do? That could well drive people from occasional petty theft (which is not OK, of course) to a life as a career criminal. Give them no choice but to steal to survive and what do you think will happen?

Up to 250 officers were sent from Scotland to help police in the Midlands and North of England deal with rioting and disorder
The Met says 16,000 officers will be available in London for the next 24 hours and this will be reviewed on Friday
Police in London say they have more than 100 arrest warrants to work through "in the coming hours and days"
The government launches a website with advice to the public on how to cope with the unrest
Saturday's Premier League match between Tottenham and Everton at White Hart Lane has been postponed

Meanwhile, the Met Police have made a total of 888 arrests and charged 371 people in connection with violence, disorder and looting in the capital since Saturday night.

More than 330 people have been arrested in the West Midlands and a further 140 people have been arrested so far over the trouble in Manchester and Salford.

For David Cameron the riots were a moment of maximum crisis - and yet there are those around him who hope he may yet emerge strengthened.

The looting and violence, they argue, actually plays to one of Mr Cameron's long standing narratives about the Broken Society.

The response of ordinary people in coming together and cleaning up their local communities also chimes with his belief in the Big Society.

Many traditional Tories, they say, will also have been delighted by his clear and uncompromising stance on law and order, with his promise of more arrests, more prison places and his dismissal of "phoney concerns about human rights".

Er... that last bit does make me uncomfortable. While I understand we don't want to tie the hands of authority, human rights are rather important and governments really aren't in the habit of erring too much on the "human rights" side but rather the opposite.

But their biggest hope is that though Mr Cameron appeared to stumble at the start of these riots with his belated return from holiday, he has since got a grip and shown leadership.

You don't want just leadership, you want good leadership.

In short the hope is the riots need not prove the potential political catastrophe for his premiership that many had predicted.

Courts sat through the night in London, Manchester and Solihull in the West Midlands to deal with people arrested during the four nights of disturbances, with those appearing in court mainly facing disorder and burglary charges.

Mr Cameron said anyone convicted of violent disorder would be sent to prison.

But Met Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh said some officers who had been on the streets had voiced disappointment at the sentences handed out so far.

Mr Kavanagh added that there had since been "constructive conversations" between the home secretary, the Met commissioner and the courts.

"We're very keen to make sure that communities within our cities feel confident in the policing and that we can then get back to some sense of normality," he told BBC News.

London Mayor Boris Johnson praised the police, and insisted the authorities were not "complacent" despite the violence subsiding.

"Nobody should be in any doubt that the problem is over or that we are remotely complacent about this," he told reporters after the Cobra meeting.

Met Acting Commissioner Tim Godwin paid tribute to his officers after the meeting.

"We faced unprecedented violence and damage and criminality and looting, and they were so brave," he said.

"Any suggestion the officers stood back is wrong."

Police cuts

A deputation of Labour MPs from London went to the Home Office on Wednesday to demand a "moratorium" on plans to reduce numbers in the Metropolitan Police.

Labour shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said: "It is staggering and utterly shameful if it has taken these appalling events for ministers to start waking up to what everyone else has known all along," she said.

"Cutting 16,000 officers - the equivalent of every officer on the streets of London last night - at a time like this is deeply irresponsible."

But Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said it was "simply ridiculous" to link the disorder to government policies or police cuts which had not been implemented yet.

Even if the cuts haven't been implemented yet, such disorder may well be an indication that cuts should not be implemented at all, and there might even be a need to expand the current force.

He said the government believed the cuts were "entirely manageable - and will allow the police in the future, just as they have today, to deploy large numbers into areas where that is needed".

London's Conservative mayor Boris Johnson is standing by his call for a rethink on police funding but senior government sources say the Treasury will not reopen negotiations on the spending review.

Home Secretary Theresa May has repeated her belief that police budgets can be reduced without damaging their ability to do their jobs.

At some point if you keep cutting you'll have less police, who will not be able to police as effectively. Raising the question of whether scheduled cuts should occur is entirely appropriate and laudable, and the issue should be discussed thoroughly and not simply dismissed.

A candle-lit vigil has been held for Haroon Jahan, 21, Shahzad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31, who died when they were hit by a car in Birmingham on Tuesday night.

Police have been given more time to question a 32-year-old man on suspicion of murder.

Mr Cameron said the deaths were "truly dreadful" and offered his condolences to the men's families.

The riots first flared on Saturday after a peaceful protest in Tottenham over the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan, 29, by police.

While it is laudable that the UK police avoided killing anyone, and laudable the UK government seems willing to discuss and investigate the matter, at some people there needs to be a realization that you can not simply keep on cutting cutting cutting and not expect effects. If you cut social programs back to nothing you will have many bored, irritated, and idle poor people to deal with. If you cut police it will be harder to maintain law and order. At some point the prophets of austerity will have to realize that yes, you DO need to pay for things in sufficient quantity to make the system work.

I'll just mention that anti-gang and youth programs in the US are expensive. They cost real money, even thought they also involve a lot of people volunteering their time. There is a certain level of resentment about paying for them. On the other hand, paying to rebuild substantial parts of a city isn't cheap, either. One way or another the citizens do pay, it's up to them to decide if they want to spend it on prevention or rebuilding.

[Zaune]

What, exactly, does that mean? Longer sentences as a matter of routine? That will increase Britain's prison population, which will cost money. Isn't the UK in a cost-cutting mode right now? What are the budget implications of such a measure?

Fortunately for the Conservatives, we don't have anything remnotely equivalent to the 5th Amendment to which our politicians are obliged to at least pay lip service. Stuffing three or four prisoners in a cell built for two isn't going to create any insurmountable legal problems, and the majority of the British public isn't going to give a damn either. I would also not be surprised if prison was cheaper, per year, than the kind of anti-gang social programmes you mention.

If you do take the dole away from people dependent on it how are they going to live? Take away all benefits and they have nowhere to sleep and nothing to eat. What do you think they're going to do? That could well drive people from occasional petty theft (which is not OK, of course) to a life as a career criminal. Give them no choice but to steal to survive and what do you think will happen?

See above.

[Broomstick]

Fortunately for the Conservatives, we don't have anything remnotely equivalent to the 5th Amendment to which our politicians are obliged to at least pay lip service. Stuffing three or four prisoners in a cell built for two isn't going to create any insurmountable legal problems, and the majority of the British public isn't going to give a damn either. I would also not be surprised if prison was cheaper, per year, than the kind of anti-gang social programmes you mention.

It's actually the 8th amendment that's against "cruel and unusual punishment", the 5th avoids self-incrimination, just for the record. But it's a good point - the constitutional mandate that boils down to, among other things, limiting overcrowding would avoid stacking people like cordwood in the jails to save money.

The answer to "how much does it cost to keep a prisoner for a year" varies across the US, but the figure usually given is between $30,000-45,000 a year (obviously, some types of facilities, such as maximum security, cost more than a minimum security prison where you can expect better behavior from the inmates). That is considerably more than the most expensive anti-gang program, but if you can warehouse prisoners for significantly cheaper that may not be the case in the UK.

[Starglider]

I think the UK also needs to take some measure to help those who own neither so they have less incentive to riot.

Such as?

What, exactly, does that mean? Longer sentences as a matter of routine? That will increase Britain's prison population, which will cost money. Isn't the UK in a cost-cutting mode right now? What are the budget implications of such a measure?

Both Labour and the Conservatives have been saying 'tougher sentences for everything' for at least 20 years. It's the simple easy populist one-liner to keep the voters happy. That's a major reason why the UK prison population has been steadily expanding. Budget freezes have caused prison overcrowding, and if and when we have overall national budget cuts (as opposed to just local ones) prison conditions will further deteriorate and there will be an uptick in prison riots. That said the budget for law and order is likely to be prioritised over everything else; if I was inclined towards Stas style paranoia and believed the police deliberately provoked this, protecting their budgets is a much more credible motivation than trying to 'flush out ringleaders'. The US is running ahead of the UK in all this of course.

Young men (15-25) are the most energetic part of society, and some of them are aggressive as all hell. You have to keep the young men busy. A key component of the anti-gang measures for young men is somewhere to go and something to do. It often takes the form of sports facilities where they can work off some of that physical energy and aggression in a socially acceptable form, though it's certainly not the only form it takes.

The US Civil Conservation Corps was a much more effective way of doing this, but currently the idea of mass government hiring programs is out of fashion - setting up work camps would be unthinkable in the UK. This is one place where I do agree with Robert Reich. Alas I'm sure the left wing consider making people work for benefits to be a terrible infringement of human rights, while on the other side there is much more lobbyist support for spending that (borrowed) money bailing out too-big-to-fail corporations.

Did or did not the UK recently cut back on such facilities and funding recently? Is it possible that was a mistake? Is it possible for the UK government to admit it might have been a mistake?

What would you cut instead? Cutting back on public services or even civil service bloat causes endless union whining, protests and people voting Labour. Cutting back on youth programs has little visible effect and few politically articulate objections until suddenly things explode like this.

Many traditional Tories, they say, will also have been delighted by his clear and uncompromising stance on law and order, with his promise of more arrests, more prison places and his dismissal of "phoney concerns about human rights".

Er... that last bit does make me uncomfortable. While I understand we don't want to tie the hands of authority, human rights are rather important and governments really aren't in the habit of erring too much on the "human rights" side but rather the opposite.

An increasing fraction of spending going on law and order, with a bigger focus on suppressing unrest at the expense of normal crime, is inevitable as the world economy continues to decline. Having more police is good when they are defending the people, not so good if they become a defence for a corrupt state and its approved elites. The UK is less likely to go there than most countries, but still, it's hard to dismiss that concern (the anarchist far left think we're already there of course).

at some people there needs to be a realization that you can not simply keep on cutting cutting cutting and not expect effects. If you cut social programs back to nothing you will have many bored, irritated, and idle poor people to deal with. If you cut police it will be harder to maintain law and order. At some point the prophets of austerity will have to realize that yes, you DO need to pay for things in sufficient quantity to make the system work.

Voluntary cuts now postpone and maybe even avoid (although I am not optimistic about that) the much more painful involuntary cuts that occur when the sovereign insolvency looms.

On the other hand, paying to rebuild substantial parts of a city isn't cheap, either. One way or another the citizens do pay, it's up to them to decide if they want to spend it on prevention or rebuilding.

There is a third possibility; most of the law-abiding taxpaying citizens flee to other cities or gated communities, and the area turns into a gang-infested derelict wasteland. The US has seen plenty of this already, and I expect to see quite a bit more.

[Broomstick]

I think the UK also needs to take some measure to help those who own neither so they have less incentive to riot.

Such as?

How about assistance in finding new housing, purchasing new clothing, and so forth until they can get back on their feet? If the government can help restore a business or compensate someone for losing a home why can't they assist in replacing the bare minimum of possessions to those who have lost everything?

Did or did not the UK recently cut back on such facilities and funding recently? Is it possible that was a mistake? Is it possible for the UK government to admit it might have been a mistake?

What would you cut instead?

Banker and CEO salaries? (Yes, I realize that's a pipe dream)

On the other hand, paying to rebuild substantial parts of a city isn't cheap, either. One way or another the citizens do pay, it's up to them to decide if they want to spend it on prevention or rebuilding.

There is a third possibility; most of the law-abiding taxpaying citizens flee to other cities or gated communities, and the area turns into a gang-infested derelict wasteland. The US has seen plenty of this already, and I expect to see quite a bit more.

The US has a lot more empty space to flee to than the UK does.

[Starglider]

How about assistance in finding new housing, purchasing new clothing, and so forth until they can get back on their feet?

Do you mean more benefit money or vouchers? The UK has favoured the former because apparently it's wrong (violation of human dignity blah blah blah) to try and force people to spend child benefit on children rather than booze.

The problems with this are the usual problems with transfer payments, there is no money to pay for it (not without cutting public services that are defended by legions of wailing unionists) and 'getting back on their feet' is not a realistic prospect for long-term unemployed in a bad and still declining economy.

Banker and CEO salaries? (Yes, I realize that's a pipe dream)

The UK already has a 10% higher income tax than the US and a windfall tax on bank profits. The problem here is that while the Laffer curve argument has historically been abused in the US (by Republicans claiming an excessively low inflection point), the basic effect is very real. Both corporate and personal tax avoidance schemes are massively more sophisticated and effective than they used to be, so the inflection point on the top tax bracket really has moved down significantly.*

The US has a lot more empty space to flee to than the UK does.

White flight to new-built suburbs is more of a historical phenomenon, now people seem to go to other, more prosperous cities or just gated communities in the same city, even in the US.

---

* As an aside while I generally deplore avoidance of reasonable taxes, I do take a certain vicious pleasure in watching the 'paid with a Zimbabwean loan' tax avoidance strategy in action (which some traders use). No tax is due on this because being able to repay a loan for a pittance is not counted as a capital gain; first-world governments seem find it hard to object because pointing out that Zimbabwean currency is worthless as a store of value is an implicit admission that their own toxic fiat money is ultimately going to fall to zero.

[Broomstick]

How about assistance in finding new housing, purchasing new clothing, and so forth until they can get back on their feet?

Do you mean more benefit money or vouchers? The UK has favoured the former because apparently it's wrong (violation of human dignity blah blah blah) to try and force people to spend child benefit on children rather than booze.

Um... why do you assume renters are unemployed or drunks or child abusers? Are you telling me there there are no middle class people renting flats in London, they're all home owners?

When we had a tornado go through town a few years ago, where peoples homes were completely destroyed along with all their belongings, they were provided with one month temporary shelter and yes, a voucher with which to purpose some basic clothing a toiletries. This was done because, even though they were employed middle class people they had lost everything and it can take a few days to get restored ID and get access to bank accounts when you've lost all your records, meanwhile, they needed more than pajamas to wear and something to eat would be nice as well. That's in the big, bad US where we have no safety net.

Likewise - clearly, there were people in flats above some of the shops that burned, we've seen rather dramatic pictures of people leaping from burning buildings to get to safety, and so forth. Clearly, someone in that situation loses everything, maybe even literally the clothes off their back. If they were renters as opposed to business owners or home owners do they still not need some assistance of some sort? Does it matter if they're employed or not in those circumstances? If you lost everything do you have enough cash on hand to replace your clothes, your toiletries, your kitchen, your bedding and towels? How long would it take?

Or is it somehow OK to abandon people in such dire straits simply because they're renters and not owners?

The problems with this are the usual problems with transfer payments, there is no money to pay for it (not without cutting public services that are defended by legions of wailing unionists) and 'getting back on their feet' is not a realistic prospect for long-term unemployed in a bad and still declining economy.

So, if you're a renter you can just stand naked on the street, then? No bias there!

[Starglider]

Are you telling me there there are no middle class people renting flats in London, they're all home owners?

You appeared to be talking about the rioters ('incentive not to riot'), but now you are talking about the victims. People who lost homes and posessions due to the riot will certainly get compensation from both the government (under existing laws) and private charities. They are a small enough group (a few hundred people) that this is not a fiscal issue, and there are already donnation drives in papers, on websites etc to help the victims.

This is a completely different proposition from trying to prevent people from rioting in the first place by improving conditions in blighted areas as a whole, which involves hundreds of thousands of people.

[Big Orange]

Sadly the riots were not free from ethnic tensions when tensions in Birmingham had to be successfully diffused by a peace rally, following three young men getting fatally run down by a looter's car in the early hours of the Wednesday before:

UK riots: thousands attend Birmingham peace rally
The father of one of the men killed during the Birmingham riots said the support of local people brought "strength in my heart" yesterday, as thousands of people attended a peace rally in the city.


Leaders from several faiths gathered in Winson Green under the slogan of “One City, one voice for peace” to honour the three men. Haroon Jahan, 21, and brothers Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31, died on Wednesday when they were hit by a car as they protected businesses from looters. Police estimated up to 5,000 people attended the two-hour rally in Summerfield Park. Tariq Jahan, father of Haroon, said that that seeing so many different members of the community together gave him "strength in my heart". The 46-year-old's moving appeal for calm and restraint on the day after the deaths last week was widely credited with discouraging revenge attacks.

Mr Jahan, wearing a T-shirt with the names of Haroon, Shazad and Abdul on it, yesterday said: "To me it's the month of Ramadan, as a Muslim I believe that this is a very special month. "For us Muslims we believe the gates of heaven are open and the gates of hell are shut this month, so that gives me the strength to believe that the three boys did not die in vain, they died for this community and I hope that this community will remember them." Abdul Qudoos, the elder brother of Shazad and Musavir, broke down as he addressed the crowd and asked them for unity. He finished by making a plea to the gathered audience, saying: "Please do not divide, be together, be at unity. Let people know that we are all good ... Let's just unite." Chris Sims, the chief constable of West Midlands Police, told the crowd he was confident correct policing operations had been put in place during an "incredibly long and difficult week" in which a city came under attack from riots and looters. A message was read from the grandmother of Isaiah Youngsam, a black 23 year-old student who was murdered during the 2005 Lozells race riots. Addressed to the three dead Asian men, the message read: "I am praying for you and your family and praying that God gives you strength, grace and peace.

"I hope your actions will only serve to further unite our communities." There was dissent from some members of the crowd, with some complaining that the music being played at the event was disrespectful to the Islamic faith. One man, dressed in traditional Islamic dress and wearing a steward's vest, was seen approaching others and telling them that the event was not true to Islam. That led to Mr Jahan returning to the stage to plead for calm. Earlier in the day a 26-year-old man and a teenager were remanded in custody after appearing in court charged with the murders of the three men. Joshua Donald, 26, from Kelsall Croft, Ladywood, appeared before Birmingham magistrates charged with three counts of murder. In a separate hearing shortly afterwards, a 17-year-old man remanded in custody to appear at the crown court today. A spokeswoman for West Midlands Police confirmed that a 16-year-old boy arrested on suspicion on murder had been bailed pending further inquiries, and a 32-year-old man who was arrested on Wednesday on suspicion of murder was also bailed. Two further men, aged 23 and 27, were arrested late on Saturday night. West Midlands Police also announced they had recovered a third vehicle which they believe was involved in the crash. An black Audi A3 is undergoing forensic tests, a spokeswoman said.

The Telegraph

And while going off on a tangent a bit, we're going to have more tragic and horrific family mass killings like this happening in Jersey the other day as a by-product of a failing economy destroying people running fragile financial adventures. Not the first nor last time that this happened (over a couple of years ago a minor millionaire in England who lived beyond his means lost his estate flipped out and then massacred his family, his pets, and then burned his estate to the ground).