Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by UnderAGreySky »

As hurricane Irene tears through the US East Coast, Fox News runs (to quote the Guardian) "a splendidly mistimed – or very well timed, depending on your point of view – opinion piece" that says the National Weather Service should be scrapped.
As Hurricane Irene bears down on the East Coast, news stations bombard our televisions with constant updates from the National Hurricane Center.

While Americans ought to prepare for the coming storm, federal dollars need not subsidize their preparations. Although it might sound outrageous, the truth is that the National Hurricane Center and its parent agency, the National Weather Service, are relics from America’s past that have actually outlived their usefulness.

The National Weather Service (NWS) was founded in 1870. Originally, the NWS was not a public information agency. It was a national security agency and placed under the Department of War. The Service’s national security function has long since disappeared, but as agencies often do, however, it stuck around and managed to increase its budget.

Today the NWS justifies itself on public interest grounds. It issues severe weather advisories and hijacks local radio and television stations to get the message out. It presumes that citizens do not pay attention to the weather and so it must force important, perhaps lifesaving, information upon them. A few seconds’ thought reveals how silly this is. The weather might be the subject people care most about on a daily basis. There is a very successful private TV channel dedicated to it, 24 hours a day, as well as any number of phone and PC apps. Americans need not be forced to turn over part of their earnings to support weather reporting.

The NWS claims that it supports industries like aviation and shipping, but if they provide a valuable contribution to business, it stands to reason business would willingly support their services. If that is the case, the Service is just corporate welfare. If they would not, it is just a waste.

As for hurricanes, the insurance industry has a compelling interest in understanding them. In a world without a National Weather Service, the insurance industry would probably have sponsored something very like the National Hurricane Center at one or more universities. Those replacements would also not be exploited for political purposes.

As it stands today, the public is forced to pay more than $1 billion per year for the NWS. With the federal deficit exceeding a trillion dollars, the NWS is easily overlooked, but it shouldn’t be. It may actually be dangerous.

Relying on inaccurate government reports can endanger lives. Last year the Service failed to predict major flooding in Nashville because it miscalculated the rate at which water was releasing from dams there. The NWS continued to rely on bad information, even after forecasters knew the data were inaccurate. The flooding resulted in 22 deaths.

Private weather services do exist, and unsurprisingly, they are better than the NWS. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in 2005, the National Weather Service was twelve hours behind AccuWeather in predicting that New Orleans would be affected. Unlike the NWS, AccuWeather provides precise hour-by-hour storm predictions, one of the reasons private industry supports them.

It is not just random mistakes in crises either. Forecast Watch has found that the National Weather Service predictions of snow and rain have an error rate 20 percent higher than their private alternatives. “All private forecasting companies did much better than the National Weather Service,” their report concludes. In 2008, they found that the NWS’s temperature predictions were worse than every private-sector competitor including the Weather Channel, Intellicast, and Weather Underground. Even NWS’s online ZIP code search for weather reports is in some cases totally inaccurate, giving reports for areas hundreds of miles away.

NWS claims to spread information, but when the topic of budget cuts came up earlier this year, all they spread was fear. “There is a very heightened risk for loss of life if these cuts go through,” NWS forecasters said, “The inability for warnings to be disseminated to the public, whether due to staffing inadequacies, radar maintenance problems or weather radio transmitter difficulties, would be disastrous.”

Disastrous? The $126 million in cuts would still have left the Service with a larger budget than it had a decade ago. The massive bloat in government should not get a pass just because it’s wrapped in good-of-the-community clothing. NWS services can and are better provided by the private sector. Americans will invest in weather forecasting because if there is one thing we can be certain of, people will want to protect their property and their lives.

Iain Murray is Vice President at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and author of "Stealing You Blind: How Government Fatcats Are Getting Rich Off of You." David Bier is a Research Associate at CEI.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Patrick Degan »

Gee... I wonder if Messrs. Murray and Bier have any clue that AccuWeather actually gets its data from the NWS, as well as the EPA and international meteorological agencies? As do all those other paragons of private, market-based meteorology lolbertarians love to brag about?
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Terralthra »

I think the most hilarious bit is the "study" the editorial linked, on the accuracy of various private weather forecasting services vs. the accuracy of the NWS. It's here, in case you're interested.

First of all, when you examine the first results table, you quickly note that the NWS has significantly fewer forecasts "counted" for its score in accuracy and resolution. Why? Don't ask me, or the study; they don't tell us. They just inexplicably uncounted. The third column lists "the number of possible forecasts that could have been evaluated had every actual and forecast been collected and considered valid." Well, it actually lists a percentage, not a number, and that still doesn't in any way explain why this isn't 100%. What makes a forecast "invalid"? And why wouldn't it be counted?

The only explanation we're given is "The number used is less that the total collected because occasionally a weather observation station was down for maintenance or a weather forecast was invalidated because of errors (for example, rarely the National Weather Service reported precipitation probabilities greater than 100%)."

This study would have us believe that over 1 in 5 of the NWS's forecasts were out of range or offline? But it gets better, when you look at the winter-specific table, and suddenly the NWS has more forecasts collected, and an 85% "possible forecasts" in the third column. That's right, folks, somehow in the wintry months, when it's much harder to repair weather stations, and things are more liable to break, the NWS's availability rating suddenly jumped nearly 10 percentage points!

There's just the slightest hint of cherry-picking coming off of this study.

But wait, it gets better!

So they pull all these predictions from these four weather forecasting services. Then they compare those forecasts to the actual weather in those various areas, and compare resolution and accuracy via the Brier score. Where did they get this data on actual precipitation?
The actual study, I shit you not wrote: The forecasts were compared against precipitation measured by the National Weather Service...
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Sarevok »

From Wiki page on AccuWeather.
AccuWeather and other members of the Commercial Weather Services Association have from time to time criticized the NWS for what they have claimed is a lack of focus on this mission, often exemplified by NWS activities that are claimed to compete with the private weather companies.

On April 14, 2005 U.S. Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) introduced the "National Weather Service Duties Act of 2005" in the U.S. Senate. The legislation would have placed into federal law a definition of the duties of the NWS similar to its stated mission [15] and would have prohibited the NWS from providing products or services for free that the private sector is willing and able to provide (S. 786). The bill, which did not garner a single co-sponsor, did not come up for a vote.

AccuWeather received criticism for its support of the legislation.[16] Santorum received campaign contributions from AccuWeather's president, Joel Meyers, a frequent contributor to Republican candidates.
Sounds like this is not an issue of the moment but something that had been going on longer.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Broomstick »

As Hurricane Irene bears down on the East Coast, news stations bombard our televisions with constant updates from the National Hurricane Center.

While Americans ought to prepare for the coming storm, federal dollars need not subsidize their preparations.
They need not... but why not? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people? They act like there's a problem if the government provides anything, anything at all. Really, what they want is a total elimination of government but they haven't the cujones to say that. Maybe because then some of the Tea Party asshats would have to explain why they work for the government they want to destroy?
The National Weather Service (NWS) was founded in 1870. Originally, the NWS was not a public information agency. It was a national security agency and placed under the Department of War. The Service’s national security function has long since disappeared, but as agencies often do, however, it stuck around and managed to increase its budget.
Untrue - the military does still have a very real need to understand and deal with the weather. The air force probably more than anyone else, but also the navy (gotta get those aircraft carriers pointed into the wind for launch/landing!) and everyone else.

Also, I don't understand why these asshats can't see that defending citizens against natural disaster is every bit as important as defending against a human enemy.
Today the NWS justifies itself on public interest grounds. It issues severe weather advisories and hijacks local radio and television stations to get the message out.
Oh, heavens - a 30-60 second interruption of radio to say "severe weather - take cover". For TV they don't even interrupt anything any more, they just put a crawl on the screen and the let show keep on rolling. Oh, the HORROR of it all!

No, a "hijack" of a broadcast station is when someone blocks the standard programming for an extended period for personal or political gain, not when an alert to possible hazard blips on for a minute or less.
It presumes that citizens do not pay attention to the weather and so it must force important, perhaps lifesaving, information upon them. A few seconds’ thought reveals how silly this is. The weather might be the subject people care most about on a daily basis. There is a very successful private TV channel dedicated to it, 24 hours a day, as well as any number of phone and PC apps. Americans need not be forced to turn over part of their earnings to support weather reporting.
God, the stupidity, it burns.

First of all, that successful private TV channel is only to available to those ABLE to pay. So I guess poor people can just fuck off and die, right? Also, said private TV channel is NOT available to, say, airplane pilots. Or people on a construction site who need to know not only what it's doing right now but the forecast for the next 12 hours or tomorrow or whatever so they know whether or not to start painting something or if they need a tarp for a half-fixed roof or if the temperature will be OK for pouring concrete tomorrow or whatever.

Again, the phone apps are ONLY available to those able to pay - and not just for the services but for a phone able to receive them, plus the internet connection. Again, poor people can just fuck off and die, right? Ditto for computer access.

And really, I don't know anyone outside of anarchists whack jobs who feel the NWS is somehow a waste of tax money - maybe it's because it's a government service most of us use at one time or another. I can either pay a private company or the government for the service.... and I suspect the government service is cheaper in this case when you average the funding over the entire population of the country. Either way I'm paying, I don't see how the pain of paying would be any less if I sent the money to a private company rather than the government.
The NWS claims that it supports industries like aviation and shipping, but if they provide a valuable contribution to business, it stands to reason business would willingly support their services.
They DO - aviation and shipping pay taxes, too. Taxes that provide the funding money for the NWS. So... yeah, they DO pay for it already. Why change what's working?
As for hurricanes, the insurance industry has a compelling interest in understanding them. In a world without a National Weather Service, the insurance industry would probably have sponsored something very like the National Hurricane Center at one or more universities. Those replacements would also not be exploited for political purposes.
What fucking "political purpose" is the NHC being "exploited" for? Seriously?

And the insurance industry would only sponsor something like that STRICTLY in their own interests, no one else's. They certainly wouldn't be doing it for the public interest. Disaster insurance is basically an exercise in either how to profit from the misfortune of others, or from the FEAR of misfortune. It's not really for the benefit of the policy holders, though benefit for them is a nice side-effect when it occurs.
As it stands today, the public is forced to pay more than $1 billion per year for the NWS.
And it's money well spent!
With the federal deficit exceeding a trillion dollars, the NWS is easily overlooked, but it shouldn’t be. It may actually be dangerous.
:wtf:
NWS services can and are better provided by the private sector. Americans will invest in weather forecasting because if there is one thing we can be certain of, people will want to protect their property and their lives.
But only if they're wealthy enough to PAY for the services - those goddamned poor people can just go fuck themselves, if they don't have the money to pay private fees they don't deserve weather information.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I thought that the poor can just fuck off and die, and that serial killers and rapists are good people is the Ayn Rand philosphy broom?
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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As I have never read anything by Ayn Rand I will have to take your word for it.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Beowulf »

The USAF and the USN have their meterological personnel, and are not reliant on NWS forecasts for determining future conditions. However, that is not to say that NWS information is not still useful to military forecasters. Significant portions of the weather observations we rely on are conducted by observers at non-military aerodromes. Additionally, we are required to rely on the NHC forecast for position of tropical depressions, storms, and hurricanes.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by K. A. Pital »

Broomstick wrote:As I have never read anything by Ayn Rand I will have to take your word for it.
Bear's spoofing Rand's notorious defence of a rapist and murderer extraordinaire from "the collective opression by society". She's batshit crazy, yes.
Broomstick wrote:They act like there's a problem if the government provides anything, anything at all. Really, what they want is a total elimination of government but they haven't the cujones to say that. Maybe because then some of the Tea Party asshats would have to explain why they work for the government they want to destroy?
I must say that from what I gathered about American libertarians, they are anarcho-capitalists in all but name. They may be crypto-anarchists, in that they might say they're clinging to minarchism, but there isn't a single government service they won't attack as "not necessary", "wasteful" and so on. If they had their way, the government would basically abolish self in the favor of a cabal of corporations which are never criticized by American libertarians - instead, they are defended. American libertarianism is sick in the head.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I rely on the NWS to do my god damn research, as it is they who collate and make available for free the daily (and in fact, hourly) tables of temperatures, humidity etc that I need to do my motherfucking research. The private enterprises also would not exist without the NWS which provides most of the data their meteorologists use. If a private entity or set of private entities takes over, you know what will happen? Even if they keep operational expenditures the same (and they wont, they will cut corners on equipment maintenence just like BP does with oil rigs and rifineries) we will still pay more per capita, because they will make obscene profits from the service. No longer will I pay me $3.33 a year (less than that due to my income, but hey), I will have to pay for my data at something like 20 dollars a query--which could be partitioned by search, or even day of data I seek to download. Fuck this.
As it stands today, the public is forced to pay more than $1 billion per year for the NWS.
OH NO! A whole Three Dollars and Thirty Three Cents per capita! The horrors! The Horrors!
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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OH NO! A whole Three Dollars and Thirty Three Cents per capita! The horrors! The Horrors!
Sorry but you don't think paying $0.27 a month is a horrifying prospect?
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Serafina »

Article wrote:The NWS claims that it supports industries like aviation and shipping, but if they provide a valuable contribution to business, it stands to reason business would willingly support their services.
Oh, OF COURSE they would :roll: - if the world was working according to libertarian logic.
Unfortunately, it turns out that corporations will not fund a public service just because they happen to profit from it. Else we would not only see funding of the NWS by the shipping and aviation industry, but also by the insurance industry - which the author admits has a high interest in accurate forecasts and reports.

Broomstick wrote:What fucking "political purpose" is the NHC being "exploited" for? Seriously?
Global warming probably. Or maybe something with the tyrannical evacuation of people to save their lives.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Lord Zentei »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
As it stands today, the public is forced to pay more than $1 billion per year for the NWS.
OH NO! A whole Three Dollars and Thirty Three Cents per capita! The horrors! The Horrors!
Hey you know, a gallon of gas per year here, a gallon of gas per year there...

Seriously, idiots like these are the reason "libertarian" isn't a palatable label anymore. Why does American politics have to pander to the fringe nuts so fucking much these days? That said, the media seems more likely to quote the fringe nuts within each general political movement, they love controversy.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Broomstick »

Serafina wrote:
Broomstick wrote:What fucking "political purpose" is the NHC being "exploited" for? Seriously?
Global warming probably. Or maybe something with the tyrannical evacuation of people to save their lives.
The latter doesn't hold water - even a "mandatory" evacuation is not actually enforced in the US. No one goes door to door and forces people to leave. A mandatory evacuation is just a fancy way to say "if you call for help we won't be able to come until AFTER the storm". That's why we currently have thousands of idiots stranded on barrier islands off the east coast. The stupid ninnies wouldn't leave even when told to, they decided to stay on a glorified sand bar all of 15 cm above sea level.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:I rely on the NWS to do my god damn research, as it is they who collate and make available for free the daily (and in fact, hourly) tables of temperatures, humidity etc that I need to do my motherfucking research. The private enterprises also would not exist without the NWS which provides most of the data their meteorologists use. If a private entity or set of private entities takes over, you know what will happen? Even if they keep operational expenditures the same (and they wont, they will cut corners on equipment maintenence just like BP does with oil rigs and rifineries) we will still pay more per capita, because they will make obscene profits from the service. No longer will I pay me $3.33 a year (less than that due to my income, but hey), I will have to pay for my data at something like 20 dollars a query--which could be partitioned by search, or even day of data I seek to download. Fuck this.
Well, if the private industry is not willing to sponsor your research and you have to reply on government handouts to get your work done, obviously your research is not important. After all, anything important will have buyers in this world willing to pay money for it, it's obvious!
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Aufbruch »

As a Libertarian Socialist, part of me wishes our 'estranged' right wing/'American' brethren _would_ come to power.

Public Education, welfare, food stamps, social security(all that commie pinko crap) all taken away--honestly, how long would you give it 'till the guillotine would reaffirm its title as the 'World's Most Democratic Machine'? : )

The resultant backlash against anything even remotely right-of-center would last for decades.

Yeah, big guv'ment is scary, but it's still loads less scary than big business.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Aufbruch wrote:As a Libertarian Socialist, part of me wishes our 'estranged' right wing/'American' brethren _would_ come to power.

Public Education, welfare, food stamps, social security(all that commie pinko crap) all taken away--honestly, how long would you give it 'till the guillotine would reaffirm its title as the 'World's Most Democratic Machine'? : )

The resultant backlash against anything even remotely right-of-center would last for decades.

Yeah, big guv'ment is scary, but it's still loads less scary than big business.
I have to ask, what small-L libertarian running for office now is advocating chopping people off at the knees? Most that I know are more concerned about the 800lb gorilla in the room: the Warfare state. I might also add that its government that allows Big Business to begin with (Corporations are a legal shield granted by government).
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Vendetta »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote: I have to ask, what small-L libertarian running for office now is advocating chopping people off at the knees? Most that I know are more concerned about the 800lb gorilla in the room: the Warfare state. I might also add that its government that allows Big Business to begin with (Corporations are a legal shield granted by government).
However, removing government at this stage would remove the only mechanism that could be used to counter the corporations without an actual revolution (you know, the kind where investment bankers would be first against the wall).
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Simon_Jester »

The problem, Redleg, is that American libertarianism has been hijacked by corporatists. There's a veritable political industry of pundits advocating 'free enterprise' when they mean corporatism and 'market solutions' when they mean 'chop the poor off at the knees.'

So large numbers of Americans basically sympathetic to libertarianism wind up voting for wolves dressed in libertarian clothing, who then proceed to keep the American working class immiserized, beaten down, and distracted, with libertarian slogans on their lips to justify their actions.

You can argue that these people aren't real libertarians- if they were, they'd be against the Warfare State or the War on Drugs or would accept states' rights to marry homosexuals or... well, pick your own issues of choice.

But at some level it's stopped mattering to me. I for one would love to see libertarians reclaim their legacy and force the corporatists to show themselves for what they really are: hired shills of the malefactors of great wealth. But I don't expect it to happen, and as long as it doesn't happen the name of libertarianism in America, like the name of conservatism in America, will be endlessly shamed by the actions of these hired shills.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Vendetta wrote:However, removing government at this stage would remove the only mechanism that could be used to counter the corporations without an actual revolution (you know, the kind where investment bankers would be first against the wall).
Actually, removing Corporate Personhood would be a first step. Companies whose board members can be individually sued for the actions of their company MIGHT think twice about some of the stuff they do. As I've said in other threads, its not a simple 1-step and 'voila' you're done. Its not something that can be placed in a soundbyte because it requires nuance.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Remove corporate personhood? Sounds fun- tell me more.

You know something nasty's happening when the solution is something a self-proclaimed libertarian and I can agree on. Since this coming from someone who's beginning to find himself turning into a communist sympathizer, simply because he's so damn disgusted with the corrupt and feckless behavior of the global plutocracy during the current economic crisis.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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Simon_Jester wrote:The problem, Redleg, is that American libertarianism has been hijacked by corporatists. There's a veritable political industry of pundits advocating 'free enterprise' when they mean corporatism and 'market solutions' when they mean 'chop the poor off at the knees.'
Yes, I don't disagree. Alot of them are connected with the Kochtopus. As much as I applaud the CATO Institute for its stance on The (illegal) War on Drugs, its full of Corporatists (which is the problem with Beltway Libertarians). I've seen lots of them that invaded the Republican Party to the point that its a parody of itself.
So large numbers of Americans basically sympathetic to libertarianism wind up voting for wolves dressed in libertarian clothing, who then proceed to keep the American working class immiserized, beaten down, and distracted, with libertarian slogans on their lips to justify their actions.
Yes, just like people got snookered by Obama expecting him to actually do things he promised: close Gitmo, open the dialogue about marijuana prohibition et al. I got snookered by that douchebag Bush in 2000 when he ran on a humble foreign policy compared to Al Gore. Its easy to get hoodwinked. Its also why I left the Republican party in 2004.
You can argue that these people aren't real libertarians- if they were, they'd be against the Warfare State or the War on Drugs or would accept states' rights to marry homosexuals or... well, pick your own issues of choice.
Actually, there are some that are exactly against those things. It takes looking beyond what the talking heads say. It requires becoming engaged in the discussion. It requires something more than a soundbyte.
But at some level it's stopped mattering to me. I for one would love to see libertarians reclaim their legacy and force the corporatists to show themselves for what they really are: hired shills of the malefactors of great wealth. But I don't expect it to happen, and as long as it doesn't happen the name of libertarianism in America, like the name of conservatism in America, will be endlessly shamed by the actions of these hired shills.
All I can say is that there are those of us who are trying. I won't deny its discouraging and that I've faced a great deal of misunderstanding and outright hostility. The mainstream media is about as useful as tits on a bull for informing the public. As much as I think the founder is a douche, Facebook and other sites that help us become connected are proving that survival of the fittest works in the media world too.

I will make no bones about it: I'm a Voluntaryist/Free Market Anarchist. I know that its not popular around these parts. At least with me you know up front what you're getting. I will argue with you and disagree with you til the cows come home. However, I will fight for your right to hold your beliefs. I personally thought the protestors in Wisconsin earlier this year were the equivalent of a pack of braying hyenas, but I was appalled (and not terribly shocked, sad to say) when dipstick Governor Walker said he was going to call out the National Guard to go after the protesters.

Right now I'm worried about our imminent financial collapse due to the extreme devaluation of our currency. Every other problem we have will pale by comparison if we have hyperinflation. Every time I hear someone give me some idiotic spiel about how there is nothing wrong with printing our way out of debt, I have to remember that this person is imply ill-informed. Enough people though are waking up to the criminals in our Banking industry and it may reach the critical mass necessary (I believe one recent study said 10% of a population is needed to affect change).
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BrooklynRedLeg
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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Simon_Jester wrote:Remove corporate personhood? Sounds fun- tell me more.

You know something nasty's happening when the solution is something a self-proclaimed libertarian and I can agree on. Since this coming from someone who's beginning to find himself turning into a communist sympathizer, simply because he's so damn disgusted with the corrupt and feckless behavior of the global plutocracy during the current economic crisis.
Would probably require amending the 14th Amendment to read: "Only natural born persons...." or words to that effect. People scream about Ron Paul being against the 14th Amendment, but a large part of it is because it was a ruling on the 14th that gave rise to Corporate Personhood. I think Vermont(?) recently passed a law denying Corporate Personhood within their state.

Edit - Found a link for it:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/01/25-4
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

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I don't think I want to say "natural born" because I don't want constitutional language that can be construed to deny the humanity of a hypothetical test tube baby (artificial womb, et cetera, et cetera).

But something like that- I'm not averse to amending the constitution to remove corporate personhood, if it makes malefactors of great wealth more responsible for their actions. At least, not at the moment- I wouldn't be surprised if there's a catch I hadn't thought of. Sigh.
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Re: Topical Libertarian Idea: Scrap the NWS!

Post by Dave »

Simon: What about the value that corporate personhood holds for the small business; the protection from personal liability, so that people can't sue an LLC's owner for their personal wealth?
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