Gold Bubble Bursts

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Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by bobalot »

Gold bubble bursts

September 24, 2011 - 10:00AM

Gold crashed more than $US100 on Friday as a slide turned into a free fall, with weeks of volatility, renewed strength in the US dollar and talk of hedge fund liquidation wrecking its safe-haven status.

The slide made the two-day plunge for the yellow metal the deepest since 1983. Silver fared just as badly with futures posting their worst day since 1987.

More than $US3.4 trillion has been erased from equity values this week, sending a global measure of shares into a bear market, on concern that governments are running out of tools to avert a recession. The Standard & Poor’s GSCI Index of 24 commodities fell to a nine-month low today.

Gold has dropped 15 per cent since reaching a record $US1,923.70 an ounce on September 6.

The gold sell-off came even after relative calm was restored to the stock and oil markets following Thursday's losses. Bonds also dived with gold and silver as investors took profit on a near week-long rally in US Treasuries.

Widespread talk of possible selling by big hedge funds covering losses in other markets set off one of the biggest routs on record in the precious metals group.

The CME Group, which oversees trading in US gold and silver futures, responded by raising margins, or deposits, required on trades of the two precious metals as well as copper. The move would further squeeze the most optimistic investors in gold, who are trying to hold onto long positions or bets on higher prices.

"We're making new lows and the bull case for gold is on pause for the near term," said Adam Klopfenstein, senior market strategist for precious metals at MF Global in Chicago.

"In the near term, the flight-to-quality interest in owning gold is also out of the window as people are not interested in buying it even in the face of fears in the economy. Until it stabilises, I'm staying out of this market."

Mounting fears this week of a global recession and a deepening Greek debt crisis made investors treat precious metals like any commodity, ignoring the safe-haven appeal that had made them a must-have in times of trouble.

The spot price of gold, which tracks trades in bullion, saw its biggest plunge since the financial crisis in 2008. The plunge took out several key technical supports, including the 100-day moving average for the first time since February.

By late Friday afternoon in New York, spot gold was down about 5 per cent, after falling more than 6 per cent earlier to touch lows from early August.

Spot gold is down nearly 8 per cent over the last two days, while silver futures have lost nearly 25 per cent.

Since hitting record highs above $US1,900 in August, gold has seen extraordinary price swings as some investors, who piled into bullion, began to have second thoughts about it staying as a haven from the euro zone turmoil and potential recession.

The risk-off trade that had benefited gold abruptly disappeared over the past two weeks. The precious metal has begun trading inversely to a newly resilient dollar, as some investors bet the bullion had become overly inflated.

In Friday's session, gold ignored even a dip in the US dollar index as the selling accelerated.

"Gold's fall is a bit surprising. The fact that it has been so volatile lately is perhaps discouraging people from even buying the dips," said Peter Buchanan, senior economist at CIBC World Markets.

Panic selling

By 5:00 p.m. EDT (7am AEST), bullion's spot price was down 5 per cent at around $US1,643 an ounce, after trading between a session peak of $US1,754.71 and low of $US1,628.69. At $US126 an ounce, the intraday move was the biggest on record in dollar terms. It was also more than 5 standard deviations beyond the normal one-day change. On a weekly basis, spot gold fell 9 per cent, its biggest weekly drop since 1980.

US gold futures' benchmark December contract on COMEX settled down 6 per cent, or more than $US101, at under $US1,640 an ounce.

Spot silver was down 14 per cent at a seven-month low below $US31 an ounce. Benchmark silver futures closed down nearly $US6.50 at around $US30.10 an ounce.

Despite those steep losses, spot gold remained up 16 per cent year-to-date due in part to big gains in August. Silver futures, however, turned negative, posting a slight loss.

A New York Times story about hedge funds likely liquidating some of their gold holdings after a year-long rally appeared to spur speculation that one specific manager had been selling, although there was no evidence to bear that out. The story did not name or cite any specific funds as behind the selling.

"I'm sure talk of hedge fund liquidation is helping to pressure things, though there's no confirmation of any single fund selling," said Jonathan Jossen, an independent COMEX trader.

While gold has fallen sharply this week, trading volumes have been strong but not yet near the record levels of August.

By late in the session on Friday, COMEX futures volume of 323,000 lots was 25 per cent above the one-month average, but about a quarter less than recent peaks.

"There are a lot of people saying it's margin calls on other assets, but I think more so it's that there's panic around and people getting out of positions they think are over leveraged and risky," said Matthew Turner, precious metals strategist at Mitsubishi Corp in London.

In April, silver surged to $49.845, a 31-year high. The price has climbed 42 percent in the past 12 months as Europe’s debt crisis boosted the appeal of silver and gold as havens.

Reuters, with Bloomberg
Source

I must admit I'm having a bit of a laugh at lolbertarians and goldbugs losing their money. I can only hope it crashes further.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by SirNitram »

SUCK IT GLENN BECK FANBOYS!

Alright, I'm done with that. This doesn't surprise. Goldbugs were fueling a wild bubble, and all bubbles burst.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Flagg »

Shocked. Shocked I say. No one could have seen this coming!
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Flagg »

Stark wrote:A lot of people still made assloads over the last ten years.
Yeap and unfortunately the gullible, greedy, and elderly bastards who they sold it all to are fucked.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Stark »

Depends on timing. Unless they just bought it, or if they weren't paying attention, they could well still avoid a loss. Of course, if you'd signed up to the Evil Financier Newsletter you'd have known this was coming and dumped with the rest of them. :lol:
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Count Chocula »

Meh. I bought my gold and silver ounces years ago at $350 and $8 an ounce. I'm still waaayyyy ahead. We'll have to see if this is a blip or a trend. The decline appears to be mirroring the stock market, which could presage a deflationary trend across the markets.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by His Divine Shadow »

OK so soon is the time to buy gold, then?
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Todeswind »

I'd give it a year.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Lord Zentei »

If the currency were really based on gold, then this would be a good thing for the average person. Deflation is a horrible bitch, and a gold currency would have been deflating a hell of a lot over the past few years.

As for what to do if you have gold: the rule of thumb if something you have bought falls 5%-10% or so is to cut your losses and get rid of that shit, especially if you're still ahead. Buy something cheap which looks like it might be the next big thing, or at least something stable until you get your bearings.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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Stark wrote:A lot of people still made assloads over the last ten years.
Yep.

We acquired (purchase, gift, inherit) gold about 20 years ago. Cashed it in. Got about a 5:1 return on the price paid.

Used it to get the hardware for a business we're trying to get off the ground. Which might, at this point, turn out to be worth more than the gold in the long run.

But yes, any small investor buying into gold the last six months or so is probably screwed if the price is in freefall.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by LaCroix »

I knew ths was going to happen soon - my bank wanted me to invest in gold at the start of September...
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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Thank God the survival seed markets remain strong.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Bursting be damned, gold is still really fucking expensive. Anyone who was buying gold recently is just dumb in every way, buy at record high prices.. yeah that makes sense. All the people Beck already convinced to buy gold years ago could still make a fortune selling now or even after a much larger fall.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Sriad »

What's shocking is that global economic troubles helped it last this LONG. I was considering gold to be in a bubble back in 2006 when it crossed above $1000/ounce and it's roughly doubled since then.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think gold just kept going up because people never really became convinced, in their guts, that 'the nightmare was over' for other forms of investment. I know I've never been convinced- nothing I've seen during any period since 2008 or so made me all that confident that the stock market would be looking good in six or twelve months' time, even though for much of that period I would have been right to think so.

As long as people remain paranoid, gold prices will stay inflated relative to their 'actual worth.' At least, as long as the price doesn't reach such utterly ludicrous levels that people forget the original reason they bought the gold and start selling it off to make a quick buck, unable to resist the appeal... as is happening now. Heh.


Another thought. If people are buying up gold and hoarding it, prices may well trend upward simply because normal gold production is low on a per-ton basis: industrial users can afford to watch the prices go very high because they use small quantities, so when a million retail bidders join the dance, they have to bid the price up equally high in order to have a chance of buying any.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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I guess I never understood the menality of people investing in GOLLLLLD as some sort of "safety net" in case the economy collapsed. Of course ignoring the fact that aside from some industrial applications, gold only has value because people with currency backed by the economy say it does. It really isn't useful for much else. You can't eat it. You can't fuel your car up with it. You can't use it to make weapons. And if the economy ever really "collapsed" those would your primary concerns.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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That old argument again? Gold is a valuable (ha!) and scarce ressource that never needs any kind of special attention to keep it's value, indeed it can be turned into jewelry or any solid form the owner wants it to be. So, why should it not be a good long-term storage of wealth? Even if civilization breaks down, I am still better of having a bar of gold than treasury bonds - because gold is shiny.
So yeah, there is value in gold and there ever will be, as long as there are humans and we haven't figured out how to synthesize it.

edit/ Also, people think that way because it has been the intelligent thing to think for thousands of years. Ask the people living during the Weimar Republic. Ask the people of East Germany when the wall fell and their currency turned into worthless pieces of paper. (Yes, I am oversimplifying this, but thats not relevant to the argument I am making.) Ask the people who had all their money in the stock market in 1929. Ask the banks who lend to american homeowners or the Greek state. Pieces of paper are no infalible way to park your wealth, so people turn to less volatile things.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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Skgoa wrote:That old argument again? Gold is a valuable (ha!) and scarce ressource that never needs any kind of special attention to keep it's value, indeed it can be turned into jewelry or any solid form the owner wants it to be. So, why should it not be a good long-term storage of wealth? Even if civilization breaks down, I am still better of having a bar of gold than treasury bonds - because gold is shiny.
So yeah, there is value in gold and there ever will be, as long as there are humans and we haven't figured out how to synthesize it.
Yes you can make it into jewelry. Which will do you a lot of good when roving bands of thugs come looking for food in the post-apocolypse :). At least I could set the treasury bills on fire to keep myself warm on a cold night lol.

The main point I was making is that if the economy went belly up we're all pretty well fucked anyway. So the smarter play is investing with the idea that the economy doesn't go into the toilet. If you really are concerned about surving in a world where things truly went bad, you'd be better off investing in a secret shelter somwhere and stocking it with canned food than expecting your gold stockpile to save you.
edit/ Also, people think that way because it has been the intelligent thing to think for thousands of years. Ask the people living during the Weimar Republic. Ask the people of East Germany when the wall fell and their currency turned into worthless pieces of paper. (Yes, I am oversimplifying this, but thats not relevant to the argument I am making.) Ask the people who had all their money in the stock market in 1929. Ask the banks who lend to american homeowners or the Greek state. Pieces of paper are no infalible way to park your wealth, so people turn to less volatile things.
No one is arguing that gold is more tangible asset than paper money. But the modern economy is also no longer backed by the gold standard. It is now essentially a luxury item that you need to exchange for paper money before you can make much use of it. As long as the economy is sound it will hold value, the same as fine champagne, caviar, and Ferraris. But if the economy were to suddenly collapse, the price of gold would collapse right with it. It is not the "safety net" that Gold-Line and similar ilk would have you believe.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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Skgoa wrote:So yeah, there is value in gold and there ever will be, as long as there are humans and we haven't figured out how to synthesize it.
[Nitpick] Actually we do know how to "synthesize" gold, or if you prefer, transmute it from other elements, but the process is so expensive (requiring a particle accelerator or similar heavy equipment) and has so little output that there's no way we could make gold as cheaply as we dig it out of the earth and refine it [/nitpick]
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by bobalot »

You have to love these gold companies who are pushing gold claiming that currencies are going to lose a lot of value......then why is it that these people are selling gold to people? Why are they exchanging soon to be near worthless currency for something that supposedly going to sky rocket in value?

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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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TheHammer wrote:But if the economy were to suddenly collapse, the price of gold would collapse right with it.
That's not true. Money is simply a medium of exchange, to be sure. If the US economy collapsed tomorrow, certainly something else (probably not gold) would replace it: bullets/beans/bandages being the likely candidates out of the starting gates. You cannot eat a Ferrari (nor a bar of gold). However, gold and silver would still likely find places where they would be used. Wanna buy that new George Lucas shocking "Tell All" book on Amazon? Maybe a Krugerrand or 2 will get it for ya? As time wears on, they would likely gain greater acceptance as more and more wealth was generated.

Anyway, a commodities-backed currency is far more stable than a fiat one when compared over the long term. The average lifespan for a fiat currency as I understand it is 27 years. They tend to implode spectacularly as well. The US Federal Reserve Note has lost somewhere over 98% of its purchasing power since its inception in 1913.

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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

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TheHammer wrote:I guess I never understood the menality of people investing in GOLLLLLD as some sort of "safety net" in case the economy collapsed. Of course ignoring the fact that aside from some industrial applications, gold only has value because people with currency backed by the economy say it does. It really isn't useful for much else. You can't eat it. You can't fuel your car up with it. You can't use it to make weapons. And if the economy ever really "collapsed" those would your primary concerns.
Basically, gold has been used as a stand-in for economic value across pretty much the entire world for all of human history, as opposed to being a new stand-in we just invented within the past century or two. If the currency is totally revaluated and 'old money' becomes worthless (Weimar), if the land is collectivized and your title deeds to a bunch of real estate become worthless, et cetera... well, unless someone confiscates all the gold (which, of course, they might) gold retains value.

The value of gold has survived many social upheavals- even if the amount of bread or fuel or land it can buy isn't constant, at least it never goes to zero; it remains a way to transfer wealth from the 'old conditions' to the 'new conditions.' And, again, gold is durable: you can bury it in a pit and come back in five years and even if everything else has changed, it's still there.

Now, if civilization were to totally collapse, the value of gold would collapse too, because you can't eat it. But in conditions of 'partial collapse,' of extreme crisis where the basic infrastructure still works but doesn't work very well, and where the political environment is in upheaval... then gold is probably going to retain value. It can be traded for currencies used in other parts of the world that aren't so fucked up, it can be used as a medium of exchange in a semi-barter economy, and so on.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by TheHammer »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote:
TheHammer wrote:But if the economy were to suddenly collapse, the price of gold would collapse right with it.
That's not true. Money is simply a medium of exchange, to be sure. If the US economy collapsed tomorrow, certainly something else (probably not gold) would replace it: bullets/beans/bandages being the likely candidates out of the starting gates. You cannot eat a Ferrari (nor a bar of gold). However, gold and silver would still likely find places where they would be used. Wanna buy that new George Lucas shocking "Tell All" book on Amazon? Maybe a Krugerrand or 2 will get it for ya? As time wears on, they would likely gain greater acceptance as more and more wealth was generated.
That's kind of my point. If the U.S. economy collapsed to the point of being worthless you have an economic apocalypse not just for the U.S., but the world. IT would take some time for it to get fixed, during which time your most valuable commodities are going to be fuel and food. And while a new economic system would likely be established at some later date, there is no reason to think it would be backed by gold. It would of course retain some value, again as a luxury item, but I highly doubt you'd see it used as a currency exchange.
Anyway, a commodities-backed currency is far more stable than a fiat one when compared over the long term. The average lifespan for a fiat currency as I understand it is 27 years. They tend to implode spectacularly as well. The US Federal Reserve Note has lost somewhere over 98% of its purchasing power since its inception in 1913.
You may have more stability with a commodities backed economy, however you lose a lot in terms of the ability to grow the economy. Obviously there are differing schools of thought and different advantages/disadvantages to both systems.
Simon_Jester wrote:
TheHammer wrote: The value of gold has survived many social upheavals- even if the amount of bread or fuel or land it can buy isn't constant, at least it never goes to zero; it remains a way to transfer wealth from the 'old conditions' to the 'new conditions.' And, again, gold is durable: you can bury it in a pit and come back in five years and even if everything else has changed, it's still there.

Now, if civilization were to totally collapse, the value of gold would collapse too, because you can't eat it. But in conditions of 'partial collapse,' of extreme crisis where the basic infrastructure still works but doesn't work very well, and where the political environment is in upheaval... then gold is probably going to retain value. It can be traded for currencies used in other parts of the world that aren't so fucked up, it can be used as a medium of exchange in a semi-barter economy, and so on.
As I said, Gold would always have value as a durable luxury item and worth investing in, with the notion that the economy does not collapse. Honestly, I'm doubtful you could have a "partial collapse" to the point where people with Gold being ok vs people without gold, without the entire system coming down.

But I was talking more a full economic collapse either way. I seem to recall among the scare monering ads for buying gold i've seen was the notion that if the economic apocalypse did happen that people should have FOOD, GUNS, and GOLLLLLD stockpiled somewhere. I find the idea of the third amongst the first two rather laughable.
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Re: Gold Bubble Bursts

Post by Jaepheth »

In the case of a total global economic meltdown, no; gold won't have much value in the anarchy immediately following the collapse. But it likely will have more value than dollars in whatever economy rises from the ashes.

Also, if just the US economy collapses, it would easier to take your gold and emigrate to Germany, Canada, or Brazil than it would be to take your US dollars and do the same.

That being said; if I were the worrying wealthy type, I would still rather invest in land and manual farm equipment or herds of something out of personal preference.
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