Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by mr friendly guy »

linky
Bolt found guilty of breaching discrimination act

Updated September 28, 2011 11:40:45

Journalist and political commentator Andrew Bolt has been found guilty of breaching the Racial Discrimination Act over two articles he wrote in 2009.

Bolt was being sued in the Federal Court by nine Aboriginal people including former ATSIC chairman Geoff Clark, academic Professor Larissa Behrendt, activist Pat Eatock, photographer Bindi Cole, author Anita Heiss, health worker Leeanne Enoch, native title expert Graham Atkinson, academic Wayne Atkinson, and lawyer Mark McMillan.

They alleged two articles written by Bolt for his employer, the Herald and Weekly Times, implied light-skinned people who identified as Aboriginal did so for personal gain.

The articles were headlined "It's so hip to be black" and "White fellas in the black".

Bolt's lawyer, Neil Young, had argued the articles represented his client's genuinely held views on matters of public interest.

Bolt argued his articles were fair and were within the laws of free speech provisions.

But barrister Ron Merkel SC, appearing for the applicants, said the articles took a "eugenics approach" that was frozen in history.

Today Federal Court Justice Mordecai Bromberg found Bolt had breached the act because the articles were not written in good faith and contained factual errors.

He said the articles would have offended a reasonable member of the Aboriginal community.

After the verdict, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott warned against restricting "the sacred principle of free speech".

"Free speech means the right of people to say what you don't like, not just the right of people to say what you do like," he said.


More to come.
Well I will be damned. We actually punish bullshitters for writing crap. Naturally Abbott wanks off to free speechTM. One can say what you like, however if its false there are consequences. For example I bet Abbott would be foathing at the mouth if someone wrote an article that he was a closet paedophile and then tried to hide behind free speechTM.

Bolt made some claims, that people of mixed heritage claimed to be Aboriginal because of $$$$ which is offensive if its not true. He was called on his bullshit and found wanting.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Stark »

Since the standard is so low (ie 'identifies with the culture of' or 1/8th descent) it's clearly an attack on the welfare provisions even if it isn't racist, so its no surprise Abbott supports it. Gotta get those lying old/disabled/veterans/etc off welfare, after all!
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by weemadando »

Bolt might be a repugnant cunt but I can see why people would be concerned about the implications of the ruling.

That said, everyone but the most deadshit of racists knows that you just say boat person or asylum seekers instead of RAGHEADS! and no one will ever call you on it.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by weemadando »

Stark wrote:Since the standard is so low (ie 'identifies with the culture of' or 1/8th descent) it's clearly an attack on the welfare provisions even if it isn't racist, so its no surprise Abbott supports it. Gotta get those lying old/disabled/veterans/etc off welfare, after all!
Plus there have apparently been cases where because the "identifies with the culture/community" thing is determined by peers, people who should be eligible have been locked out due to grudges etc.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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weemadando wrote:Bolt might be a repugnant cunt but I can see why people would be concerned about the implications of the ruling.

That said, everyone but the most deadshit of racists knows that you just say boat person or asylum seekers instead of RAGHEADS! and no one will ever call you on it.
Oh I can see why people are concerned, but in a slippery slope type of way.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Korto »

Couldn't happen to a nicer arsehole, although I think Bolt is pushing the definition of "Journalist" a bit.
Bolt had breached the act because the articles were not written in good faith and contained factual errors.
"Good Faith" is always uncomfortable; while I can see a need for the law to try and decide it, I'm glad I don't have to do the deciding, but I don't see any reason why "Free Speech" should have to protect factual errors.
Then again, if Bolt wasn't allowed to write factual error, what would he have left?
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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ABC now has a summary of the court findings. I have tried formatting it as best as I can.
1 In accordance with the practice of the Federal Court in some cases of publicinterest, importance or complexity, the following summary has been prepared to
accompany the publication of the Court‟s reasons for judgment. This summary is intended to assist in understanding the outcome of this proceeding and is not a
complete statement of the conclusions reached by the Court. The only authoritativestatement of the Court's reasons is that contained in the published reasons for judgment which will be available on the internet at http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/
together with this summary.

2 Ms Eatock has brought this proceeding on her own behalf and on behalf of people like her who have a fairer, rather than darker skin, and who by a combination
of descent, self-identification and communal recognition are, and are recognised as, Aboriginal persons. I will refer to this group of people as “fair-skinned Aboriginal people”.

3 Ms Eatock complains about two newspaper articles written by Mr Andrew Bolt and published by the Second Respondent (“the Herald & Weekly Times”) in the
Herald Sun newspaper and on that paper‟s online site. She also complains about two blog articles written by Mr Bolt and published by the Herald &Weekly Times on the Herald Sun website.

4 Broadly speaking, the nature of her complaint is that the articles conveyedoffensive messages about fair-skinned Aboriginal people, by saying that they were not genuinely Aboriginal and were pretending to be Aboriginal so they could access benefits that are available to Aboriginal people. Ms Eatock wants the law to address this conduct. She wants declarations and injunctions and an apology from the Herald & Weekly Times. She calls in aid Part IIA of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) (“the Racial Discrimination Act”) which includes sections 18C and 18D. She claims that by their conduct, Mr Bolt and the Herald & Weekly Times have contravened section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

5 In order to succeed in her claim, Ms Eatock needed to establish that:

It was reasonably likely that fair-skinned Aboriginal people (or some of them) were offended, insulted, humiliated or intimidated by the conduct; and
That the conduct was done by Mr Bolt and the Herald &Weekly Times, including because of the race, colour or ethnic origin of fair-skinned Aboriginal people.

6 Mr Bolt and the Herald &Weekly Times dispute that the messages that Ms Eatock claims were conveyed by the articles, were in fact conveyed. They deny that any offence was reasonably likely to be caused and also that race, colour or ethnic origin had anything to do with Mr Bolt writing the articles or the Herald & Weekly Times publishing them. They also say that - if Ms Eatock should establish those elements which she needs to satisfy the Court about - their conduct should not be rendered unlawful, because it should be exempted or excused. For that purpose, they rely on section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act.

7 Section 18D exempts from being unlawful, conduct which has been done reasonably and in good faith for particular specified purposes, including the making
of a fair comment in a newspaper. It is a provision which, broadly speaking, seeks to balance the objectives of section 18C with the need to protect justifiable freedom of expression.

8 All of that raises interesting, difficult and important questions which needed to be resolved in order for Ms Eatock‟s claim to be determined.

9 The newspaper articles the subject of Ms Eatock‟s claim, describe what in this case has been referred to as a „trend‟. The „trend‟ and the people who constitute it are the subject of criticism by Mr Bolt. Each article refers to a number of named individuals who are said to have chosen to identify as Aboriginal, as examples of the people in the wider „trend‟.

10 Collectively, eighteen individuals are named in the articles. Nine of those individuals gave evidence in this case. Each of them genuinely identifies as an
Aboriginal person and has done so since their childhood. Each was raised to identify as an Aboriginal person and was enculturated as an Aboriginal person. None of them„chose‟ to be Aboriginal. Nor have they used their Aboriginal identity inappropriately to advance their careers. Each is entitled to regard themselves and be regarded by others as an Aboriginal person within the conventional understanding of that description.

11 Part IIA was inserted into the Racial Discrimination Act in 1995. A number of issues were raised in the case about what the provisions of Part IIA mean and how those provisions should be applied.

12 Mr Bolt and the Herald & Weekly Times relied upon the heading of Part IIA to contend that the operation of Part IIA is restricted to racist behaviour based upon racial hatred. I disagree. The legislative history of Part IIA and the words utilised in Part IIA show that contention to be incorrect. No decision of this Court has interpreted Part IIA to be limited to the incitement of racial hatred.

13 Part IIA has a broader field of operation. Infused by the values of human dignity and equality, the objectives of Part IIA extend to promoting racial tolerance
and protecting against the dissemination of racial prejudice.

14 Part IIA is also concerned to protect the fundamental right of freedom of expression. Freedom of expression is an essential component of a tolerant and
pluralistic democracy. Section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act exempts from being unlawful, offensive conduct based on race, where that conduct meets the
requirements of section 18D and may therefore be regarded as a justifiable exercise of freedom of expression. In that way, Part IIA seeks to find a balance between freedom of expression and freedom from racial prejudice and intolerance based on race.

15 Whether conduct is reasonably likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate a group of people calls for an objective assessment of the likely reaction of those people. I have concluded that the assessment is to be made by reference to an ordinary and reasonable member of the group of people concerned and the values and circumstances of those people. General community standards are relevant but only to an extent. Tolerance of the views of others may be expected in a multicultural society, including from those persons who are the subject of racially based conduct.

16 I have concluded that from the perspective of fair-skinned Aboriginal people, the messages (or what lawyers call “the imputations”) conveyed by the newspaper articles which Mr Bolt wrote, included that: There are fair-skinned people in Australia with essentially European ancestry
but with some Aboriginal descent, of which the individuals identified in the articles are examples, who are not genuinely Aboriginal persons but who,
motivated by career opportunities available to Aboriginal people or by political activism, have chosen to falsely identify as Aboriginal; and Fair skin colour indicates a person who is not sufficiently Aboriginal to be genuinely identifying as an Aboriginal person.

17 I am satisfied that fair-skinned Aboriginal people (or some of them) were reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to have been offended, insulted, humiliated or intimidated by the imputations conveyed by the newspaper articles.

18 A causal nexus is required to be demonstrated between the act reasonably likely to offend and the racial or other characteristics or attributes of the persons
reasonably likely to have been offended. A test for that causal nexus has been expressed in different ways including whether the act was “plainly calculated to
convey a message about” the racial group?

19 I have concluded that, for the purpose of section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, Aboriginal people are a race and have common ethnic origin.

20 The imputations which I have found were conveyed by the newspaper articles were plainly calculated to convey a message about the race, ethnicity or colour of fairskinned Aboriginal people, including whether those people are sufficiently of Aboriginal race, colour or ethnicity to be identifying as Aboriginal. I am satisfied that Mr Bolt both understood and intended that imputations of that kind were conveyed by the newspaper articles he wrote. I have therefore found that in writing those parts of the newspaper articles which conveyed the imputations, Mr Bolt did so including because of the race, ethnic origin or colour of fair-skinned Aboriginal people.

21 I am also satisfied that the causal nexus has been established in relation to the publication of the newspaper articles by the Herald & Weekly Times.

22 In reaching those conclusions, I have observed that in seeking to promote tolerance and protect against intolerance in a multicultural society, the Racial
Discrimination Act must be taken to include in its objectives tolerance for and acceptance of racial and ethnic diversity. At the core of multiculturalism is the idea that people may identify with and express their racial or ethnic heritage free from pressure not to do so. People should be free to fully identify with their race without fear of public disdain or loss of esteem for so identifying. Disparagement directed at the legitimacy of the racial identification of a group of people is likely to be destructive of racial tolerance, just as disparagement directed at the real or imagined practices or traits of those people is also destructive of racial tolerance.

23 I have not been satisfied that the offensive conduct that I have found occurred, is exempted from unlawfulness by section 18D. The reasons for that conclusion have to do with the manner in which the articles were written, including that they contained errors of fact, distortions of the truth and inflammatory and provocative language.

24 In coming to that view, I have taken into account the possible degree of harm that I regard the conduct involved may have caused. Beyond the hurt and insult involved, I have also found that the conduct was reasonably likely to have an intimidatory effect on some fair-skinned Aboriginal people and in particular young Aboriginal persons or others with vulnerability in relation to their identity.

25 I have taken into account that the articles may have been read by some people susceptible to racial stereotyping and the formation of racially prejudicial views and that, as a result, racially prejudiced views have been reinforced, encouraged or emboldened. In the balancing process, I have also taken into account the silencing consequences upon freedom of expression involved in the Court making a finding of contravention.

26 I have concluded that the conduct of Mr Bolt and the Herald & Weekly Times is not exempted by section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act from being unlawful because:
(i) it was not done reasonably and in good faith in the making or publishing of a fair comment, within the requirements of section 18D(c)(ii) of the Racial
Discrimination Act; or

(ii) done reasonably and in good faith in the course of any statement, publication or discussion, made or held for a genuine purpose in the public interest, within
the requirements of section 18D(b) of the Racial Discrimination Act.

27 On the basis of my findings, I am satisfied that each of Mr Bolt and the Herald & Weekly Times engaged in conduct which contravened section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

28 I have made no findings of contravention in relation to the two blog articles. Those articles were relied upon for additional claims which were raised by Ms Eatock very late in the trial of the proceeding. It would have been procedurally unfair to Mr Bolt and the Herald &Weekly Times to have permitted Ms Eatock to pursue those additional claims.

29 As to the relief which should be granted by the Court, I intend to direct the parties to confer with a view to agreeing on orders to give affect to the Court‟s
reasons for judgment. I have indicated that the Court will make a declaration that Mr Bolt and the Herald &Weekly Times have contravened section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. I have also indicated that I will make orders prohibiting the republication of the newspaper articles. In the absence of the publication of an apology, I will consider making an order for the publication in the Herald Sun of a corrective notice.

30 Finally, in dealing with the formulation of the orders to be made by the Court, I have observed that it is important that nothing in the orders I make should suggest that it is unlawful for a publication to deal with racial identification, including by challenging the genuineness of the identification of a group of people. I have not found Mr Bolt and the Herald & Weekly Times to have contravened section 18C, simply because the newspaper articles dealt with subject matter of that kind. I have found a contravention of the Racial Discrimination Act because of the manner in which that subject matter was dealt with.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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Speaking outside court, Bolt described the verdict as "a terrible day for free speech in this country".
Typically free speech wankers (as opposed to free speech defenders) bemoan the lack of protection for their lies as against freedom of speech.

But look at the comments on ABC.
So, freedom of speech, so long as it agrees with *your* prejudices?
Here is a tip. Those who use this line usually are the first to fall on their sword when their pseudo logic is used against them. The problem lies in what they interpret as freedom of speech, ie can say anything they want even if untrue. The usual way is just to have somehow hypothetically accuse them of <insert perjorative her> from terrorist (I hear from a certain ex cameraman from channel 9 that works against Muslims real well) to paedophile, and see if they don't go apeshit. If they do it shows how weak their position is and their hypocrisy, if they say "you can call me whatever you want its a free world," it invites unlimited ridicule on them, and also shows how stupid their position is, because most people would not take kindly to being defamed.
Yes because it's more than ok to openly vilify upper-middle class white people like the Greens do, but woe-be-tide if you do it to a person with slightly browned skin. They might get hurt feelings!

Do you really believe your own tripe?
No wonder these guys wank to freedom of speech. It allows them to lie and lie and lie some more. :D The Greens might "villify" people based on the fact they are bigots or polluters, not because they are "upper middle class white people". Bolt however in his article villified people because of their ethnicity. But I guess these people are too god damn stupid to tell the difference.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

Australia is easily one of the most authoritarian of the functioning democracies, though it's disappointing that even on a rationalist, scientific board like this free speech isn't getting much love. Yes, it lets people who want to say things you disagree with say them anyway. Just be thankful that when the people in government and in the majority disagree with you, you're still allowed to say what you think is right, which in America at least is placed above the whims of the political system.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Stark »

I notice you do a good job regulating your media and ensuring political discourse isn't totally highjacked.

Wait... :lol:

PS people express views just like this all the time. It should inform you that his lawyers defence isn't anything more complex than 'yeah it's totally untrue but it's personal opinion'. His breach is that he is obviously shitstirring, and not expressing his good faith opinion (as assloads of amazingly ignorant, bigoted radio morons do every day).

Don't let any of this bother you. :lol:
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

I'm British (you might guess from the name/avatar, but then I suppose an American might also be an RN fan...).

I don't believe it should be illegal to say things that are untrue or to 'shitstir', or that media should be "regulated". If you do, you do not believe in freedom of speech. I realise that these days admitting it plainly is a bit like coming out of the closet in the 17th century Papal State, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of others like you around. Many of them, clearly, are in the government of Australia.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Stark »

Sigh. Your crybaby bullshit aside, I'm just going to point out that his defence is that they are his genuine attitudes. Do you not understand what that means?

And sorry, lying isn't protected speech, whether in advertising, business or politics. If that offends you, I don't give a fuck. If you believed in freedom of speech like a cretinous child, fraud would be fine. Oops!
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

I don't care what his defence is, because it doesn't matter to me what he said or why. It's outrageous that even has to submit a "defence". Until and unless he physically assaults someone or breaks a prior consensual agreement he has done nothing wrong (fraud is in the latter category - it occurs when someone has prior agreed to do a certain thing, and then doesn't; merely writing the document or making a promise doesn't constitute the wrongdoing). This is the distinction between believing in a general principle of freedom of speech and believing in a finite number of specified classes of protected speech as determined by the state.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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Your general principle of free speech is a bit fuzzy though. Where do you draw the line?
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Stark »

Yeah, it's the difference between being a simpleminded moron and understanding the tradeoffs in society.

It's hilarious to me that you think lying to profit requires no defence because FREEDOM. :lol: Every time people defend hate speech it is a giant lol.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

If you draw a line you don't believe in free speech, you believe in some other thing. People need to get out of this recent idea that all rights are just vague trade-offs between competing interest groups.

EDIT: That was to Thanas.

Stark: It's really just insults now. If you have a substantive argument to make, feel free to come back.
Last edited by HMS Conqueror on 2011-09-28 07:46am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Alkaloid »

So, just to be clear Conqueror, if I were to take out a full page add in the paper tomorrow declaring you, by name, to be a pedophile, with an account of the number and names of children you assaulted, even though it was untrue and I had no evidence at all to support my claims, that would be fine as I am exercising my right to freedom of speech, and there should be no repercussions for me at all?
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by mr friendly guy »

HMS Conqueror wrote:Australia is easily one of the most authoritarian of the functioning democracies, though it's disappointing that even on a rationalist, scientific board like this free speech isn't getting much love.
Wah wah wah.
Yes, it lets people who want to say things you disagree with say them anyway.
.
Really. Thanks Captain Obvious.
Just be thankful that when the people in government and in the majority disagree with you, you're still allowed to say what you think is right, which in America at least is placed above the whims of the political system.
Hey, I haven't see this red herring before.
I don't believe it should be illegal to say things that are untrue or to 'shitstir', or that media should be "regulated".
Ok, lets hold you to that. Keevan Colton once used this type of tactic against Glocksman to illustrate the stupidity of American libel laws, however the same principle works here.

Someone accuses you with zero evidence of being a paedophile and engaging in bestiality. Should this hypothetical person be allowed to say it ad nauseum even if its untrue with the purpose of "shit stirring"?

A yes or no answer without chicken shit evasions would be fine thanks.
If you do, you do not believe in freedom of speech.
I know accusing someone of being against freedom of speech seems to be INSTANT WIN button with some people, namely right wing retards, but since you have come on to a board which is "rationalist, scientific board" you might need a bit of justification. It might help to start with your definition of freedom of speech because its quite clear to anyone who isn't an idiot that its different from other posters (as opposed to the other posters simply opposing freedom of speech, but hey lets stick with black and white thinking, its so much easier to comprehend).
I realise that these days admitting it plainly is a bit like coming out of the closet in the 17th century Papal State, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of others like you around. Many of them, clearly, are in the government of Australia.
So for people who have such a broad definition of freedom of speech, please justify why existing defamation and libel laws are wrong.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

1. Libel is a civil matter, not a criminal one. You can't be prosecuted (in the UK) for calling me a paedophile with no evidence; I could only sue you for it. The analogy therefore breaks down in its own right.

2. I don't agree with libels laws either. You want to believe tabloid mudslinging? Caveat emptor. In simple terms, the answer to your question is yes.

3. Not believing in freedom of speech is not, of course, an automatic loss. There are sensible arguments that can be advanced for government control of speech - albeit not ones I agree with. However, people in this thread seemed to be advocating government control of speech while claiming to still support free speech. This is dishonest and logically incoherent.

4. I expect rational people who view the world via the scientific method to support freedom of speech, cet. par., because the way the scientific method works is to compare all of the competing hypotheses in a free discourse to search for the one that best fits the evidence. In value-judgement issues that often come up in politics there isn't an objectively correct answer, so it becomes even more important - even in principle the Vatican Censor (or whoever in the state gets to decide truth) cannot be correct as such.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

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Australia is easily one of the most authoritarian of the functioning democracies, though it's disappointing that even on a rationalist, scientific board like this free speech isn't getting much love.
Please backup this claim with some evidence or shut the fuck up.

For the rest of you, here's part of the judgement.
7. Section 18D exempts from being unlawful, conduct which has been done reasonably and in good faith for particular specified purposes, including the making of a fair comment in a newspaper. It is a provision which, broadly speaking, seeks to balance the objectives of section 18C with the need to protect justifiable freedom of expression.

23. I have not been satisfied that the offensive conduct that I have found occurred, is exempted from unlawfulness by section 18D. The reasons for that conclusion have to do with the manner in which the articles were written, including that they contained errors of fact, distortions of the truth and inflammatory and provocative language.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by HMS Conqueror »

Which claim, specifically?

Freedom of speech doesn't require assertions to be true, let alone to not be in "inflammatory and provactive language" (wouldn't the world be a poorer place where "or shut the fuck up." can't be used as a debate opener?) in order to be permissible. The whole point is a state committee doesn't get to determine truth.
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by bobalot »

HMS Conqueror wrote:Which claim, specifically?
Are you retarded? I quoted it above. Provide evidence that Australia is the "most authoritarian of the functioning democracies".

EDIT: I like how Supreme Court Judges whose job it is in many court cases (if not all) is to determine the truth = "State Committee" that shouldn't determine the truth.
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bobalot
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by bobalot »

Hilariously, if Andrew Bolt hadn't blatantly lied, section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act of 1975 would have applied and his columns would have been covered by free speech.

He just had to go one step further and use his column in a national newspaper read by millions to blatantly lie about a small group of Aborigines, who (if they hand't used the courts) would have no practical platform rebut his lies.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

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Alkaloid
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Re: Aussie journalist guilty of breaching discrimination act

Post by Alkaloid »

4. I expect rational people who view the world via the scientific method to support freedom of speech, cet. par., because the way the scientific method works is to compare all of the competing hypotheses in a free discourse to search for the one that best fits the evidence. In value-judgement issues that often come up in politics there isn't an objectively correct answer, so it becomes even more important - even in principle the Vatican Censor (or whoever in the state gets to decide truth) cannot be correct as such.
You do realise that the scientific method requires you to back up claims you make with proof, and expects you to be called out for spouting whatever bullshit you make up as fact?
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