Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Broomstick »

I knew it had to happen eventually: Plot to bomb US Capitol and Pentagon using remote controlled model airplanes "stuffed" with explosives
A 26-year-old Massachusetts man with a physics degree was arrested and charged Wednesday with plotting an attack on the Pentagon and the U.S. Capitol with a remote-controlled model aircraft, authorities said.

Rezwan Ferdaus, a U.S. citizen from Ashland, Massachusetts, planned to use model aircraft filled with C-4 plastic explosives, authorities said.

As a result of an undercover FBI investigation, Ferdaus, who has a physics degree from Northeastern University in Boston, was charged with attempting to provide material support and resources to al Qaeda for attacks on U.S. soldiers overseas, authorities said.

His federal public defender couldn't be reached immediately for comment.

A law enforcement official said Ferdaus posed no immediate danger to the public because undercover operatives kept in close contact with him.

"There is no information to indicate he was connected to a foreign terrorist organization. It appears he was radicalized watching videos on the internet. He was given the opportunity to back down, but he never wavered" from his intention to carry out the attacks, the source said.

The investigation also involved a cooperating witness, and authorities began recording conversations between that witness and Ferdaus in January, authorities said.

Ferdaus began planning a violent "jihad" against America in early 2010, authorities said, and he began supplying the FBI undercover agents with cell phones rigged to act as electric switches for improved explosive devices, intended to be used to kill U.S. soldiers overseas.

Undercover federal agents also gave Ferdaus 25 pounds of fake C-4 explosives. Only a very small amount of it was the real thing, the source said.

The FBI agents also gave Ferdaus six AK-47 assault rifles and three grenades, but they weren't functional, the source said.

Between May and this month, Ferdaus also ordered and acquired a $6,500 remote-controlled aircraft, an F-86 Sabre, that he kept in a rented storage facility in Framingham, Massachusetts, that he maintained under a false name, authorities said.

Despite coming into possession of the plane, another law enforcement official said, "The person was never really a threat."

Ferdaus is unmarried with no children, authorities said.

A federal magistrate in Worcester, Massachusetts, on Wednesday ordered Ferdaus to be held until Monday, when a detention hearing is scheduled, authorities said.
While the person in question might have a degree in physics I'm not too sure about his knowledge of aviation. Also, I question just how much damage such flying bomblets would actually do - and maybe he did, too, hence the plan to shoot people evacuating buildings.

This also pisses me off, as RC flying is the only sort I have access to these days and this is just going to make for more trouble for the law-abiding, peace-loving genuine hobbyists.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by erik_t »

What a goddamned idiot. It'd be more productive to crash into a [redacted] with a beat-up old pickup.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by weemadando »

Yeah, I doubt the payload of an RC plane, even a large jet one is particularly worrisome.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Zaune »

Broomstick wrote:While the person in question might have a degree in physics I'm not too sure about his knowledge of aviation. Also, I question just how much damage such flying bomblets would actually do - and maybe he did, too, hence the plan to shoot people evacuating buildings.
If he'd managed to get hold of some professional-grade explosives and used a model of RC aircraft that was solid and heavy enough to punch through the toughened glass I sincerely hope the US government is smart enough to install in all their key administrative buildings, you really wouldn't want to be within five metres of where it went off. I can however think of several ways he could got rather a lot more bang for his six and a half thousand bucks.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Ryan Thunder »

I imagine that if he figured out a way to set off a hand grenade attached to one the results would be pretty terrifying.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Count Chocula »

Aannnddd another "brilliant" Muslim plot is foiled! I suppose this could be cause for concern, since estimates of the Muslim population in the US range from 1.3 to 7 million; if, say, 1% are radical, then we have potentially 12,000 to 70,000 underwear/shoe/Fort Hood/RC plane murderers running loose. Me, I'm not that concerned. A Muslim accountant or physicist or computer programmer would have about as much ability as me to cause mass casualties, that is, not much. A radical Muslim farmer or miner, weellll...that could make me nervous.

And no, RC planes even in a mass "swarm o' doom" wouldn't do jack to damage buildings or kill people. They just don't have the payload capability, and shit even if one could carry a frag grenade and drop it, good fucking luck with the accuracy. We had a dumbass in a Cessna 172 crash his plane into a 30-story building here in Tampa a few years ago, and it did very little damage. IIRC, people across the floor or above and below the hit didn't even notice it.

No, an ag plane loaded with VX or anthrax would be the smallest effective platform, and flights of those suckers have been VERY closely monitored over the last ten years.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Broomstick »

weemadando wrote:Yeah, I doubt the payload of an RC plane, even a large jet one is particularly worrisome.
Quite.

The main danger would be people panicking, not the possible payload of such an airplane. Now, frightening people into a herd of panicked animals is a form of terrorism, and making plans to shoot people leaving a building is also terrorism. That's where the main danger lies, how people would react.

Or, if you had an actual jet powered RC model (which do exist) the temperature of the exhaust is sufficient to be a hazard but those cost more than $6,500 last I checked The ones pictured look more like gas or electric powered models. Sure, those could potentially start a fire, too, but so can a book of matches.
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Broomstick wrote:While the person in question might have a degree in physics I'm not too sure about his knowledge of aviation. Also, I question just how much damage such flying bomblets would actually do - and maybe he did, too, hence the plan to shoot people evacuating buildings.
If he'd managed to get hold of some professional-grade explosives and used a model of RC aircraft that was solid and heavy enough to punch through the toughened glass I sincerely hope the US government is smart enough to install in all their key administrative buildings, you really wouldn't want to be within five metres of where it went off. I can however think of several ways he could got rather a lot more bang for his six and a half thousand bucks.
Zaune, most model RC aircraft are styrofoam and balsa wood. Some are molded plastic. The only way you're going to get one "solid and heavy enough to punch through toughened glass" would be to design and fabricate one from the ground up. I wish I had the make and model of the two airplanes he supposedly had acquired, that would tell me considerably more about the situation and how plausible his plan might have been, but I don't.

Now, yes, there are GPS guidance systems for such small aircraft, and you could program them on a flight path. The size of airplane he was using could carry some weight, although the balancing of the load can be quite tricky. Forgive me if I don't want to speculate in further detail about how to cause mayhem with a model airplane on a public forum.

But keep in mind that the Pentagon has been renovated to "blast-harden" it. A fully fueled 757 crashed into the thing and, while the damage was significant, it was FAR from knocking over the building. There is absolutely NO way an RC model has the payload to cause any sort of significant damage to the Pentagon. Well, maybe it you had a payload of anti-matter but you know that ain't happening, either. At most you might be able to break a window and cause some localized damage.

As I said, the real damage in that plot would be to shoot people evacuating from a building.

Are RC aircraft totally harmless? No - people do get injured or even killed by them. It's possible to break a window, injure someone with a prop, even start a fire with them (the fuel being flammable and all). But they aren't weapons of mass destruction, and they aren't suited to being modified in that direction. I could see ignorant people whipped to a frenzy by the media and politicians being injured in a panic caused by one, but not directly by one.
Count Chocula wrote:And no, RC planes even in a mass "swarm o' doom" wouldn't do jack to damage buildings or kill people. They just don't have the payload capability, and shit even if one could carry a frag grenade and drop it, good fucking luck with the accuracy.
Actually, there are GPS units small enough these days to allow remarkable accuracy with the flightpath of an RC model, or alternatively the pilot could use an on-board video camera and monitor to see what the airplane "sees".
We had a dumbass in a Cessna 172 crash his plane into a 30-story building here in Tampa a few years ago, and it did very little damage. IIRC, people across the floor or above and below the hit didn't even notice it.
Correct. And a C-172 is MUCH larger and heavier than the models the guy was planning to use. (Model airplanes are as fast as small prop planes, in some instances even faster, but they have much less mass).
No, an ag plane loaded with VX or anthrax would be the smallest effective platform, and flights of those suckers have been VERY closely monitored over the last ten years.
^ This.

An airplane capable of spraying a toxin or infectious agent is a more realistic threat. A highjacked airline or similar sized airplane is a credible threat. While an RC model might in theory take out a single-person target standing in the open, or possibly start a fire, it's not in the same league as a larger airplane. Even hypothetically loaded with explosives, well, it's essentially a flying hand grenade. Yes, it can cause some localized damage and you wouldn't want to be next to one going boom, but the idea it could seriously threaten the Pentagon is ludicrous.

The main problem here is that you have someone intending to cause harm who apparently was serious about finding a way to do it. If, hypothetically his plan didn't cause as much damage as he anticipated he might have tried to "improve" on it. Of course, we are already having people make accusations that the FBI set him up and entrapped him.

The only thing I now for sure is that we don't have all the details. We never have all the details.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Hawkwings »

*raises hand* I'll take that $6,500 F-86 model off him, free of charge.

Anyways, looks like he planned to spend a lot of money to accomplish not that much. If you want to actually lift cargo and whatnot, you don't buy those kinds of models. Seems like the plan was actually to cause some damage with the planes, have the buildings evacuated, then his associates would gun down people as they were leaving.

Model RC aircraft are a terrible delivery system in any case. They're relatively slow, hard to control, fragile, and very visible. And audible too, if this was a real miniature jet.

Edit; damn, ninja'd by Broomstick. I'll just add that jet-powered RC models are very finicky and hard to operate. And the jet turbines themselves cost $3000 and up.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Count Chocula »

For the same price as that R/C jet you could get your pilot's license from zero hours, rent a Cessna 172, pack it full of gas and igniters (road flares or other pyro) at o-dark-thirty, take off at first light, fly around for an hour or so, then aim the plane at a crowded freeway, trim for descent and wrap the yoke with a seat belt, bail out with a 'chute, then set off the "bomb" with a FRS radio or cell phone detonator. Hell, you might even survive the landing and escape! Just sayin'. This guy has "dumbass" written all over him. More proof that science ain't the same thing as engineering.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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Hawkwings wrote:*raises hand* I'll take that $6,500 F-86 model off him, free of charge.
I wish I knew more specifically which models he intended to use. It's not like there's just one company making one model of those jets.
Edit; damn, ninja'd by Broomstick. I'll just add that jet-powered RC models are very finicky and hard to operate. And the jet turbines themselves cost $3000 and up.
The pictures shown aren't perfect in detail, but assuming they are accurate reflections of the models he intended to use, I don't think either uses a model turbine engine. Such models, powered by actual jets, have to have the exhaust emerging from the rearmost part of the airplane in order for the exhaust cone to not set the model on fire. I can't see that configuration in either image. This makes me suspect they were either gas powered or ducted fan motors. While it is theoretically possible to use lithium batteries to power such a model you'd need a relatively large battery and the range/endurance would be extremely limited.

ETA: I'll also add that RC model turbines run on actual jet fuel because they're, you know, real jet turbines. Just really small jet turbines. I'm sure a middle-eastern looking man with a Muslim name showing up to an airport to ask for a liter or two of Jet A to go will attract no attention whatsoever...
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Zaune »

Broomstick wrote:Zaune, most model RC aircraft are styrofoam and balsa wood. Some are molded plastic. The only way you're going to get one "solid and heavy enough to punch through toughened glass" would be to design and fabricate one from the ground up. I wish I had the make and model of the two airplanes he supposedly had acquired, that would tell me considerably more about the situation and how plausible his plan might have been, but I don't.
Point taken, but I seem to recall hearing of a few really up-market RC aircraft being made out of aluminium. That would probably do the job.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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Zaune: That would still barely break a window, to say nothing of actual walls. Airplanes need to be light in order to fly, and to be honest, aluminum is really damn heavy for an airplane of this scale. Fiberglass, carbon fiber, foam, balsa, paper, plastic wrap, those are the types of materials you're looking at for something like this. And if you want to carry a payload? Well first of all, good luck with a warbird jet model, they are notoriously finicky about weight and balance. You'd be better of scratch designing and building your own heavy lifter design.

Broomstick: yeah, it is unlikely that one is an actual jet turbine. All the RC jets I've seen powered by actual turbines are like you describe - exhaust straight out the back. Last year I saw a guy at the field with a gorgeous F-16 model, he said that almost everything was custom built and he spent about $10k in just materials. Gas ducted fan sounds plausible, though I've never seen one. Gas engine gets you constant power on a prop plane? Or something like that, it's fundamentally different than an electric powered motor. Electric ducted fan is also possible, but unlikely on a model that size. Unless there are truly monstrous battery packs and fans. Lipos that size...

Heck, with lipos that size you wouldn't need an explosive payload. Just overcharge them, then when they're unstable, stick them in your plane and crash it into something. If all the horror stories are correct (which they aren't, but meh), the lipos will explode or burst into flame and produce a fire that is quite hard to put out.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure that common RC jet turbines run off kerosene. Can you even get Jet A outside of an airport or aviation gas station?
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by LaCroix »

Model jet engines run with regular diesel and kerosene. Vendors of model engines (~3000$ per piece, so I do believe this model was jet-powered, the price is in the ballpark) usually sell themselves, or can point you to vendors. It's not so uncommon, no one would bat an eye if they get small orders from someone claiming to have a model jet. But this is only done by purists, since diesel is just as good and MUCH cheaper.

The problem is that he would not have more than 1 or maybe 2 pounds of payload, which would (in the best case) be ignited on impact on the wall. No chance whatsoever to really damage the building. I would even doubt the probability of taking a window out, as it would be hard to hit one (and I do believe the Pentagon has bulletproof windows).

As stated, the only danger this poses were if he used this at a time a lot of people enter/leave, and aims at the crowd.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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Hawkwings wrote:Broomstick: yeah, it is unlikely that one is an actual jet turbine. All the RC jets I've seen powered by actual turbines are like you describe - exhaust straight out the back. Last year I saw a guy at the field with a gorgeous F-16 model, he said that almost everything was custom built and he spent about $10k in just materials. Gas ducted fan sounds plausible, though I've never seen one.
I have, but it was a custom built model. I don't know if anyone is offering them pre-built these days or not.
Gas engine gets you constant power on a prop plane? Or something like that, it's fundamentally different than an electric powered motor. Electric ducted fan is also possible, but unlikely on a model that size. Unless there are truly monstrous battery packs and fans. Lipos that size...
The available electric motors are getting bigger and more efficient, as are the batteries. Even so, the only electric power models in that size range (around 1.1 to 1.5 meters in length, going by media statements these are 1/10 the size of the full-scale F16 and F86) are very lightweight foam designs. That makes it most likely they're wood, carbon, and plastic, and probably gas powered props that may or may not be ducted fan.

If they are electric powered foam models they payload capabilities would be very small indeed.
Heck, with lipos that size you wouldn't need an explosive payload. Just overcharge them, then when they're unstable, stick them in your plane and crash it into something. If all the horror stories are correct (which they aren't, but meh), the lipos will explode or burst into flame and produce a fire that is quite hard to put out.
Puncturing lipos can be a bad thing as well, and once they start to burn it's a very hot fire that, as you point out, it hard to put out. Then again, I've seen a lot of lipo-powered airplanes crash and have yet to see one burst into flame from the impact. It's not an impossible outcome, or even a probable one in most circumstances. I'm sure you could do something to ensure a fire, but again, I don't care to delve into that in public.

Just hitting the side of a building though, particularly one made of stone like the Pentagon, isn't going to do much other than cause discoloration as it's not going to set rock on fire.
Oh, and I'm fairly sure that common RC jet turbines run off kerosene. Can you even get Jet A outside of an airport or aviation gas station?
No, and you are all quite correct, but I wouldn't put it past the guy to use authentic Jet A.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Starglider »

My guess would be that the FBI agents suggested a deliberately impractical plan so that (a) if they lost control of the operation the attack wouldn't do significant damage and (b) other budding terrorists might copcat this ineffective plan rather than do something more effective. In the early 90s London received several demonstrations from the IRA of how to attack buildings too well secured to simply park a car bomb next to; home made mortars. In 1994 they quite effectively shelled the Heathrow runway and central terminal buildings with time-fused mortar tubes hidden in a small parked car. The IRA devices were quite small - they deliberately aimed for property damage and news headlines rather than mass casualties - but you can imagine the results of scaling it up to a battery of tubes in a large van or semi trailer.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Feil »

Northeastern University must have one trashy physics department. Can't he build his rocket himself, like any good self-respecting terrorist? It's not like there's any use in a guided missile when you're close enough to point and shoot in the first place.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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The Associated Free Press is now claiming that This was the plane in question.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Simon_Jester »

Feil wrote:Northeastern University must have one trashy physics department. Can't he build his rocket himself, like any good self-respecting terrorist? It's not like there's any use in a guided missile when you're close enough to point and shoot in the first place.
A bachelor's in physics does not necessarily qualify you to build an accurate rocket. You might learn enough to do it, or you might not. You probably wouldn't unless you put a lot of effort into learning things like machining and rocket engineering during those four years- in which case an engineering degree would probably be a better choice.

Now, maybe this guy could eventually get round to building an accurate rocket after a long period of experimentation... but such experimentation would itself draw a lot of attention and possibly legal problems, and it would take years, in all likelihood.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Colonel Olrik »

Feil wrote:Northeastern University must have one trashy physics department. Can't he build his rocket himself, like any good self-respecting terrorist? It's not like there's any use in a guided missile when you're close enough to point and shoot in the first place.
A rocket would not make a better delivery system, and he could buy model rockets anyway. But really he's an idiot, if you want to make a point with a small payload you put it in a room with closed windows and packed with people, that has a much bigger effect that flying it into a wall with a toy plane of DOOM.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

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Zaune wrote:The Associated Free Press is now claiming that This was the plane in question.
Yes, that's one of the pictures I've been seeing, but it really doesn't tell me much. It's definitely not turbine powered because as it is currently structured the exhaust would set the tailplane on fire if it was. So, either gas or electric powered. I can't see a prop, so probably a ducted fan motor and those are usually electric but I just can't be sure. I doubt it's scratch-built, first time scratch-build doesn't look that good or have that good of purely cosmetic detail. It looks like a kit, either a "ready-to-fly" (RTF) or "almost-ready-to-fly" (ARF). Yes, model aircraft that size can cost thousands of dollars, particularly once you add in engines, radios, and accessories like GPS. I've seen RC airplanes that cost $10 and even $20k (the latter being genuine turbine powered). Given the wing area compared to the overall size, it's going to be fast but also "twitchy" - you'd need an experienced RC pilot to keep from crashing this thing.

I can't look at this and determine if the construction is mainly foam, or plywood, or plastic. A foam plane would be relatively lightweight and not so bad for control, but heavy plastic/plywood/even metal would make for a heavier plane, lower payload, and more control difficulty. In theory you could hollow out the fuslage and wings and pack the space with explodium, but in practice you'll wind up with weight-and-balance issues that will take some time to work out so you can maintain control over the thing. The amount of payload you can impose and still have a controllable aircraft will be less than you'd think just calculating how much the engine+wing can lift due to weight and balance issues with the design.

It's not a great platform for any payload, really. Whether model size or full scale, this sort of airframe isn't intended for cargo, it's intended for speed and maneuverability. If it's payload you want you'd be better off with a model of a C-5 galaxy or cargo type 747, because those are shaped for payloads.

And that's why I think the idiot in question was an ignoramus when it comes to aviation. He made choices that don't make sense to anyone with a real basis and/or experience in aviation.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Sir Sirius »

The Guardian wrote:FBI faces entrapment questions over Rezwan Ferdaus bomb plot arrest

Sting operation to arrest physics graduate, 26, raises concerns that US Muslims might be targeted using entrapment techniques

Paul Harris
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 29 September 2011 20.34 BST


The dramatic arrest of a man in Massachusetts accused of plotting to crash explosive-filled miniature airplanes into the US Capitol and the Pentagon has sparked fresh concerns that the FBI might be using entrapment techniques aimed at Muslims in America.

Rezwan Ferdaus, a 26-year-old US citizen and physics graduate who lived at home with his parents in Ashland, near Boston, was the target of an FBI sting in which he bought a miniature aircraft that he planned to outfit as a flying bomb.

Ferdaus, who is being held without bail, was indicted by a federal grand jury in Boston on Thursday. The six-count indictment – which also covered his alleged efforts to provide support and resources for al-Qaida groups attacking US troops abroad – said he "planned to commit acts of violence against the United States" with the goal of "decapitating" the nation's military center "and killing as many 'kafirs' [non-believers] as possible." A detention hearing has been set for October 3.

However, some legal organisations and Muslim groups have questioned whether Ferdaus, whose activities were carried out with two undercover FBI agents posing as terrorists, would have been able to carry out such a sophisticated plot if left to his own devices. In numerous previous cases in the US, the FBI has been accused of over-zealousness in its investigations and of entrapping people into terror plots who might otherwise not have carried out an attack.

"It deeply concerns us. It is another in a pattern of high-profile cases. Would this person have conceived or executed this plot without the influence of the FBI?" said Heidi Boghosian, president of the National Lawyers Guild.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations also expressed its concern and wondered if more details would later emerge at trial that showed the full scale of the FBI involvement in setting up the sting. "There is a big, big difference between a plot initiated by the FBI and a plot initiated by a suspect, and it seems this might have been initiated by the FBI," said Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR's director of communications.

The lengthy affidavit filed by prosecutors against Ferdaus details an elaborate plot in which he repeatedly expressed his desire to kill Americans and his support for Islamic jihad. The affidavit showed he came up with a detailed plan of attack and even scouted his targets in Washington in person. He also built mobile phone "detonators" that he supplied to undercover FBI agents posing as al-Qaida terrorists and expressed his pleasure when told him they had been used to kill American soldiers in Iraq.

However, the affidavit also raises several questions. Few details are given as to how Ferdaus came to the attention of the FBI. Mention is only made of a co-operating witness, known as CW, who met Ferdaus in December 2010 and soon began recording his conversations.

No details are given as to CW's identity, but it is mentioned that he or she has a criminal record and has served time in prison. That raises the possibility that the CW may have had some ulterior motive to bring an alleged terror suspect to the attention of the FBI or could be an unreliable witness.

Another potential area of concern is a meeting on 19 April 2011, when the undercover agents met with Ferdaus and questioned the "feasibility" of his plan. That raises the prospect that the FBI agents were somehow goading Ferdaus into more action. "Ferdaus responded in a defensive manner that he had made progress," the affidavit stated.

At the same meeting the undercover agents also gave financial assistance for Ferdaus to travel to Washington on a scouting trip: a fact that raises the question of whether he would have made the trip without that financial help. The undercover agents also supplied thousands of dollars in cash for Ferdaus to buy the F-86 Sabre miniature plane to be used in an attack.

Another portion of the affidavit also details Ferdaus's enthusiasm for making mobile phone detonation devices that he believed were being sent to Iraq and used by terrorists. Ferdaus suggested sending a box of 50 mobile phones to war zones where terrorists were in need of them. He even wanted to set up a sort of workshop to produce up to 30 of the devices a week.

"Ferdaus indicated that he could write instructions or make a video on how to construct the cell phone detonation devices," the affidavit said. Such an apparently outlandish idea that hinges on the idea that Islamic terrorists are desperately short of cheap mobile phones might suggest Ferdaus was, to some extent, a fantasist rather than a genuine threat.

However, some legal experts said that the case against Ferdaus appeared compelling, especially as he frequently and repeatedly indicated his desire and willingness to carry out terrorist attacks against Americans. In trying to mount a successful defence of entrapment it is vital to prove that a suspect has no pre-disposition to the crime they are accused of doing. In the Ferdaus case that would seem to be difficult, lawyers said.

"He took the weaponry and agreed to do it. That demonstrates a propensity and willingness to do it," said Anthony Barkow, a former terrorism prosecutor and executive director of the Center on the Administration of Criminal Law at New York University.

Barkow defended the FBI investigation and said that the US authorities took careful steps to avoid the issue of entrapment. "The Justice Department is very aware of this issue," he said.

Certainly the affidavit against Ferdaus paints a compelling picture of a man hellbent on waging jihad in America and eager to take the guns and explosives eventually supplied to him by the undercover FBI agents. He repeatedly states in recorded conversations that he is happy for Americans to die and that the idea for the attack was his own. "That's excellent," Ferdaus said when told one of his phone detonators had been used overseas and had killed Americans.

The prosecution case also reveals how Ferdaus ordered the plane and rented a storage facility in which to keep it and then took delivery from the FBI agents of 25 pounds of C-4 explosives, three grenades and six AK-47 rifles. It also shows Ferdaus explaining how he had become convinced that he needed to attack America after viewing jihadist websites online. "I just can't stop; there is no other choice for me," he said of his decision to launch the attacks.

Prosecutors have staunchly defended the FBI operation. "Our top priority is to protect our nation from terrorism and national security threats," said US attorney Carmen Ortiz.

FBI officials have also said the investigation was carried out responsibly and to head off a real threat. "We have an obligation to take action to protect the public whenever an individual expresses a desire to commit violence. A committed individual, even one with no direct connections to, or formal training from, an international terrorist organization, can pose a serious danger to the community," said Richard DesLauriers, Special Agent in Charge of the FBI's Boston Division.
While this guy seems like a seriously shady character it does sounds like he, while certainly an eager "jihadi", was actually being offered encouragement by the FBI agents who claimed to have sent the cellphone trigger devices he had made to terrorists. As well as, seemingly at least, weapons and explosive to aid him in his terrorist plot. I do wonder how far he would have gone with out the FBIs involvement.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Broomstick »

On a related note, there is some concern among the RC flying community that there are people in Washington wanting to restrict or outlaw many of the new technologies being used by the RC folks and this is a set up to accomplish that as well as entrapment of a Muslim.

Granted, most people probably don't give a fig about RC flight, but with several members of Congress having spoken of them in the past as a "threat" and something to be regulated, or even taken out of the hands of civilians, those who do care have some concerns.
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Vympel »

Glenn Greenwald covered this today:-

The FBI again thwarts its own terror plot
None of these cases entail the FBI’s learning of an actual plot and then infiltrating it to stop it. They all involve the FBI’s purposely seeking out Muslims (typically young and impressionable ones) whom they think harbor animosity toward the U.S. and who therefore can be induced to launch an attack despite having never taken even a single step toward doing so before the FBI targeted them. Each time the FBI announces it has disrupted its own plot, press coverage is predictably hysterical (new Homegrown Terrorist caught!), fear levels predictably rise, and new security measures are often implemented in response (the FBI’s Terror plot aimed at the D.C. Metro, for instance, led to the Metro Police announcing a new policy of random searches of passengers’ bags).
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Anecdotal to be sure, but I do remember reading some comments online that said the only ones advocating violence in the militia movement in the 90s were government plants. Anyone else get the feeling that these newfangled 'terrorists' the FBI keeps apprehending are sort of the political world's version of the guys entrapped by Chris Hansen and To Catch a Predator?
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Re: Plot to Use RC Model Planes as Missiles/Bombs

Post by Flagg »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote:Anecdotal to be sure, but I do remember reading some comments online that said the only ones advocating violence in the militia movement in the 90s were government plants. Anyone else get the feeling that these newfangled 'terrorists' the FBI keeps apprehending are sort of the political world's version of the guys entrapped by Chris Hansen and To Catch a Predator?
They kind of are. Alot of the "plots" were clueless dumbshit anti-American angry young Muslims spurred on by the FBI into developing rudimentary plans until they got to the point where a crime was committed. Still rather have them off the street.
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