Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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http://news.yahoo.com/herman-cains-sudd ... 40597.html

ATLANTA (AP) — If there's a policy star in the Republican presidential primary it may be Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax overhaul plan.

It has helped fuel the Georgia businessman's sudden surge in the GOP race. But behind the catchy slogan is a reality: Experts say it will raise taxes on some Americans.

"The 9-9-9 plan that I have proposed is simple, transparent, efficient, fair and neutral," Cain, the former Godfather's Pizza chief executive, declared at Tuesday night's Republican presidential debate in New Hampshire, where his newfound higher status in the Republican primary race was on full display

Better-known Republicans seeking the White House relentlessly assailed both Cain and the centerpiece of his unlikely presidential bid, mocking it as simplistic and politically unworkable.

"I thought it was the price of a pizza when I first heard about it," joked former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman.

Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann dismissed it as a jobs plan, not a tax plan.

"When you take the 9-9-9 plan and turn it upside down, I think the devil's in the details," she quipped.

Still, 9-9-9 has placed the charismatic Cain in the thick of the primary battle. Now the trick will be staying there. On Wednesday, Cain pledged to ramp up his ground game in the early primary states of New Hampshire and Iowa, an effort to capitalize on his momentum.

The plan would scrap the current tax code and replace it with a 9 percent tax on personal income and corporations as well as a new 9 percent national sales tax.

Cain argues the 9-9-9 proposal would expand the tax base so more Americans are contributing to government coffers while at the same time getting government out of the business of picking winners and losers through the tax code.

The final phase of Cain's plan would move to a so-called fair tax, eliminating the income and corporate income taxes in favor of a national sales tax.

"It's bold," Jeanne Seaver, co-founder of the Savannah, Ga., tea party. "I like that you know where you stand with his plan."

But while some are swayed by the plan's simplicity — it can fit on a bumper sticker compared with Mitt Romney's 160-page plan — critics on the left say it would place a greater tax burden on middle- and low-income Americans by stripping away deductions that currently complicate the federal tax code.

Most low-income families currently pay less than 9 percent of their income in federal taxes. Nearly half of all U.S. households — mostly low-and middle-income families — pay no federal income taxes, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

Roberton Williams, senior fellow at the nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, said under Cain's plan taxes would rise on the elderly and the poorest Americans who earn less than $20,000 a year.

"The top end earners would see a big tax cut and the bottom end would see a big tax increase," Williams said. "Where in the middle it would break even we don't know because we don't have the details of the plan."

The proposal would eliminate the capital gains as well as payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare. Corporations wouldn't pay a tax on dividends and the 9-9-9 plan would lower the corporate income tax from 35 percent to 9 percent.

Cain argued Tuesday night that low-income workers would pay less because he would eliminate payroll taxes, which total 15.3 percent of wages.

Kevin Hassett, an economist and senior fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, praised Cain's plan as moving toward a flat tax.

"If someone's going to attack the 9-9-9 plan I would say they should be careful because you are talking about the Republican holy grail," Hassett said,

The plan, Hassett said, hews to the conservative orthodoxy of "taxing consumption rather than success."

But conservative economists are not unanimous in their support.

But some say they're troubled by the creation of a national sales tax that would give politicians in Washington a new stream of money to meddle with.

"It's very good in theory but very troubling in practice," said Daniel Mitchell, an economist and senior fellow at the Cato Institute. "I don't trust politicians with a new source of revenue."

Still, politically, Cain seems to have struck gold.

The 9-9-9 plan is seemingly easy to understand, with a memorable slogan. It reinforces his image as a political outsider willing to brush aside the Washington bureaucracy and start fresh. And its red meat to the anti-tax tea party crowd where Cain has drawn strong support.

"The best politicians are those that are able to discuss complex policy matters in fairly direct terms," said former Republican strategist Dan Schnur, who now runs a political think tank at the University of Southern California.

In the past, the 65-year-old Cain has compared the tax code to the "21st century version of slavery," a particularly powerful analogy from the lone African-American in the Republican contest.

Still, there are also political trouble spots.

Cain has been fixated on the 9-9-9 plan and to be a viable contender for the GOP nomination he must show a mastery of other issues.

The plan would also implement a new national sales tax, which draws little enthusiasm among the GOP's conservative base.

Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum scored points at Wednesday's debate when he noted that the proposal would raise the cost of many things citizens purchase every day.

"How many people here are for a sales tax in New Hampshire?" Santorum asked the audience.

Receiving almost no response he turned back to Cain, "there you go, Herman. That's how many votes you'll get in New Hampshire."

Maybe a few more than that. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll of Republican primary voters released Wednesday found Romney and Cain in a dead heat, while Perry dropped to 16 percent. Cain was the first choice of 27 percent of those surveyed, while Romney held firm at 23 percent. The poll, which was taken Oct. 6-10, had a margin of error of 5.35 percent.

____

Steve Peoples contributed to this report from Concord, N.H.

___

Online:

Herman Cain for President: www.hermancain.com

___

Follow Shannon McCaffrey on Twitter at http://twitter.com/smccaffrey13
Thoughts on the feasability of this plan, or lack thereof.


Weather this plan works or not aside, it's telling that stuff like this is what's being discussed rather than and of Obama's proposals. Obama can campaign and stump for his jobs bill or other proposals but it seems like the American people have long since clocked out on anything Obama has to say. The conversation seems to be whether Romney or Cain would be the better choice to get our economy on its feet. People's attitude toward Obama being "Dude, you had 3 years to get the economy together, and you couldn't get us anywhere, why should I waste time even listening to you much less vote for you." It's as if the whatever happens, Obama wont be president after 2012.

I haven't been pleased with Obama at all, but as someone who voted for him, if he goes down like that, it will be disappointing.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Lord MJ wrote:
Thoughts on the feasability of this plan, or lack thereof.


Weather this plan works or not aside, it's telling that stuff like this is what's being discussed rather than and of Obama's proposals. Obama can campaign and stump for his jobs bill or other proposals but it seems like the American people have long since clocked out on anything Obama has to say. The conversation seems to be whether Romney or Cain would be the better choice to get our economy on its feet. People's attitude toward Obama being "Dude, you had 3 years to get the economy together, and you couldn't get us anywhere, why should I waste time even listening to you much less vote for you." It's as if the whatever happens, Obama wont be president after 2012.

I haven't been pleased with Obama at all, but as someone who voted for him, if he goes down like that, it will be disappointing.
It's a shame really. In America you vote for a Republican or a Republican in all but name. Although Obama's administration can certainly be held culpable for a number of stuff that's detestable, it's a sign that a lot of people still can't get it into their heads that the Republicans have Obama bound and gagged on a lot of stuff and otherwise destroyed much of his potential. The system churns out its sick brew of candidates every year. This is insane. :x
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by Mr Bean »

The long and the short of the Herman Cain 9-9-9 plan from those I trust?
It would decrease raw US tax revenue by 60% that falls almost totally on the low and middle classes with mostly regressive tax rates.

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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Sales tax is a horrible idea. The richer you are the less you spend on consumable goods in relation to your income. It isn't even remotely fair because the rich will pay a lower proportion and put a heavier burden on everyone else. National sales tax would do just that.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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I don't think he's automatically going to lose on that count- but I do think that people have mostly stopped listening to him, and that his biggest talking point is that his opponent is a crazy person.

Obama talks a lot bigger than he acts- this has been true pretty much since inauguration, and the American people know it.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Where did he come up with the 9%? How did he figure that would be enough revenue for the country?
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Knife wrote:Where did he come up with the 9%? How did he figure that would be enough revenue for the country?
It's literally based on the Bible because God takes the 10th in tribute IE 10% and 9% should be good enough for human governments.

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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Mr Bean wrote:
Knife wrote:Where did he come up with the 9%? How did he figure that would be enough revenue for the country?
It's literally based on the Bible because God takes the 10th in tribute IE 10% and 9% should be good enough for human governments.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Believing in stone age tribes economics. So THAT'S where they get their advice. And no wonder it doesn't work.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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To note here is the quote
ABC wrote:Cain’s 9-9-9 video concludes with text saying, “If 10% is good enough for God, then 9% should be just fine for the Federal Government.”

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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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The idea people have about Obama not being a "Real American" has hamstrung his ability to act also. For instance Herman Cain has proposed completely eliminating the tax code and replacing it with something else. Now I don't think 9-9-9 is a good plan at all. But the idea of completely scrapping the tax code and replacing it with something else may very well be something we should do.

But Obama would never be allowed either by congress of the American public to make such large scale changes to the status quo. In fact if Obama deviates from the norm in any significant degree he is attacked. Essentially people (not his hardcore supporters ie the democratic base) but people in general (no affiliation or republicans) have put him in a box labeled "America." That box being the traditions and norms and status quo about how America operates.

This is America do not step outside of this box, and if he steps out of the box people become downright suspicious about what this man is up to.

Now Cain, even though he is black, he's close enough to being a good old boy that he can propose radical shifts to "Change" "America" without the right leaning folks foaming at the mouth. Herman Cain was raised an American, did an "American" thing: building a corporation and making millions of dollars. "We can trust him. He's an American."
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Wait a second...

9-9-9... upside down... is 666! 666, the Devil's number! The Mark of The Beast! The Anti-Christ!

HOLY SHIT! IT ALL MAKES SENSE! HERMAN CAIN IS THE ANTI CHRIST! OMG! OMG! :lol: :mrgreen: THE END OF THE WORLD IS UPON US! :lol:

He's gonna pull a Will Smith and flip-turn America upside down!!! :lol:
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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I think the only people who think that way, MJ, are already on the right.

If Obama had proposed major changes in 2009, I'm more sure he could have gotten away with it, or at least had it accepted by the bulk of the populace.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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CrateriaA wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
Knife wrote:Where did he come up with the 9%? How did he figure that would be enough revenue for the country?
It's literally based on the Bible because God takes the 10th in tribute IE 10% and 9% should be good enough for human governments.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Believing in stone age tribes economics. So THAT'S where they get their advice. And no wonder it doesn't work.
Not only that, but it's based on a common misconception about tithing, but a misconception nontheless.

From a biblical standpoint ALL wealth in the world belongs to God. And individuals are granted stewardship of that wealth. 10% is required to be given back to God. That much has to be tithed no matter what. But that doesn't mean the other 90% is individuals to do with what they please. At times the need of the kingdom (the church more or less) will require more depending on what initiatives it is undertaken at that point and time. And in the case that the church doesn't need that money directly, the rest of that wealth needs to be used to do good works or otherwise be stewarded responsibly.

If we were to take that analogy to the government and taxes, it would essentially mean that up to 100% of someones wealth exists for the benefit of society. And if society requires something (like say a universal health plan) then the wealth held by members of society exists for that purpose. And when society doesn't have a specific need for the wealth, then it is up to the steward of that wealth to make use of it to the betterment of the world, or otherwise engage in good stewardship of the wealth so that it be plentiful when society has a need of it.

In short, it's a worldview that is totally contrary to modern American conservative thought.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Simon_Jester wrote:I think the only people who think that way, MJ, are already on the right.

If Obama had proposed major changes in 2009, I'm more sure he could have gotten away with it, or at least had it accepted by the bulk of the populace.
I believe that even in 2009 he would require more than just his base, or the "Obama, Obama" people. To accomplish radical change he would require the support of people that are not quite loyal to him (some on the right, conservative democrats, and the many independents that supported him.)

Something like "Totally scrap the tax code" or even "All national security laws enacted by the Bush admin be repealed and replaced with a whole new set of policies" are things that people would not be inclined to trust Obama to do, but may be willing to trust if an "American" president proposed such radical shifts.

On the other hand if Obama had at least proposed such radical shifts and tried his damdest to make it happen, I would be willing to be his base would be a lot more energized in support of him than they are now.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by Patrick Degan »

Herman Cain's may be a media darling now. But the more people look even sideways at the idiocy of his Bankruptcy Express 999 plan, he'll crash about as fast as Michelle Bachmann did. It doesn't help that he's spewing typical right wing goofy-talk about the unemployed being to blame for their own troubles. In the face of the ever-growing Occupation movement, it shows remarkable tone-deafness to the growing current of anger against a manifestly unequal financial and economic system which is ass-raping the common people every day and has been for the last three decades.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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In the long run, I'm more worried about Romney as I think he will be the winner. I already had a friend of mine tell me after hearing about Romney's activities at Bain Capital that he might be the one to turn the economy around. I pointed out to her that if Romney tried to do what he did at Bain Capital through the Federal Government, it would be anathema to the current political philosophy of the American right.

In fact, right after Obama got elected it is something I proposed Obama should do in a blog posting, and the comments I got from conservative leaning folks was not positive.

But I think people will become enamored with him because of such activities as his stint at Bain Capital and not be knowledgeable enough to realize it will mean jack shit as far as government economic policy is concerned.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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The only Republican candidate who seems to have his head screwed on straight is Buddy Roemer. Who hasn't exactly been invited to any debates or been given exposure in the mainstream press because he has a quite radically different position that the other Republicans.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

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Romney may well be the most likely guy, but so much depends on the primaries, and those aren't anywhere near done with. Republican primaries distort the field pretty sharply.
Lord MJ wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I think the only people who think that way, MJ, are already on the right.

If Obama had proposed major changes in 2009, I'm more sure he could have gotten away with it, or at least had it accepted by the bulk of the populace.
I believe that even in 2009 he would require more than just his base, or the "Obama, Obama" people. To accomplish radical change he would require the support of people that are not quite loyal to him (some on the right, conservative democrats, and the many independents that supported him.) Something like "Totally scrap the tax code" or even "All national security laws enacted by the Bush admin be repealed and replaced with a whole new set of policies" are things that people would not be inclined to trust Obama to do, but may be willing to trust if an "American" president proposed such radical shifts.

On the other hand if Obama had at least proposed such radical shifts and tried his damdest to make it happen, I would be willing to be his base would be a lot more energized in support of him than they are now.
I was there at his inauguration- I believe it.

In 2009, there were a lot of people willing to support Obama to the hilt. The people who would scream "SOCIALIST EVIL!" at him were the same ones who did so anyway. That's critical: 30-35% of the population was going to distrust Obama no matter what he did. All center or left change has to be passed over the objections of that third of the population, with the support and on the behalf of the other two thirds. Obama was elected by the two thirds (approximately; I'm not talking exact vote totals here), and there were a lot of them who were pretty damned enthusiastic about him at the time, plus a lot more who were... call it 'willing to go along.' People who accepted that they'd voted for change, who did (and do) want to see reform, and saw no reason why Obama didn't do it.

Trying to keep quiet to mollify that residual third is a waste of time, and always was, and now it's too late for Obama to change tactics effectively because he's been doing it for so long.

The ones who don't think Obama is a 'real enough' American to be allowed to change things never voted for him, never would, and shouldn't be factored in- Obama was not elected to maintain the status quo.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by Aleria »

Is anyone else depressed this guy is taken seriously a potential presidential nominee for one of the two major parties?

Cain's plan is both idiotic and regressive. Yet people are willing to vote for him.

No wonder people mock my countrymen for being idiots. :/
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by mr friendly guy »

When Australian introduced a goods and services tax to widen the tax base, it was with a proviso that income tax be subsequently decrease as well. Our income tax system however was still a progressive tax system, rather than a proportional one as Cain proposes. It appears from the article this would have an effect of widening the tax base, but also putting more pressure on the poorest of Americans.

Now I want to know is, does it tax more on the richest of Americans, or less than current income tax for corporations and individuals. Then maybe it can at least claim to also improve the country's bottom line.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by TimothyC »

While I don't support the plan (I'm half tempted to write in Ryan Crierie on the Ohio Republican Primary if Romney has it wrapped up by the time Ohio votes), he is calling for the removal of the FICA taxes. These taxes (which fund Social Security and Medicare) nominally take 15.3% of wages (half from the employer before the employee sees the wages and half on the paycheck). These taxes are capped at just over the first $100k of income. Cain's plan removes these taxes and the regular income tax with his 9% flat income tax*. The big catch is how many employers would increase the employee's wages rather than pocked the 7.65% of the FICA taxes that they now don't have to pay.

*This is why while his 9% flat income tax is regressive, he argues that it is less regressive than current taxes, and people in the lowest income bracket would pay less in income taxes under his plan. See the catch above for why that wouldn't hold up in the real world.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Alyeska wrote:Sales tax is a horrible idea. The richer you are the less you spend on consumable goods in relation to your income. It isn't even remotely fair because the rich will pay a lower proportion and put a heavier burden on everyone else. National sales tax would do just that.
I never got Americans opposition to a national sales tax, Europe which I think we can agree is for the most part has more progressive economies yet has a value added tax which is basically a sales tax.

Personally I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to get rid of the bottom bracket for income tax and replace it with a sales tax while increasing aid to the poor.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by Starglider »

This is a great plan. As well as cutting the effective post-deduction income taxes paid by our Successful Job Creators (tm) from 45% ish to 5% ish, Successful Job Creators will also be able to expense a large amount of their purchases as corporate assets to avoid at least half of the 9% sales tax. I'm unclear if this plan also abolishes inheritence tax; one can only hope that it does, strengthening the next generation of Successful Job Creators. The 60% revenue drop claimed by the communoid demorats is surely a ridiculous exageration showing complete ignorance of the Laffer Curve, but even if this claim has substance it can easily be covered by halving federal worker salaries and/or headcount (an economic boon of course : government workers can by definition never produce anything of value) and printing up more dollars to cover any shortfall. The resulting savage biflation will only be a problem for Unproductive Parasites, our Successful Job Creators will benefit from rising nominal asset prices and cheaper labour.
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by PeZook »

You know, it's kind of funny how a lot of right-wing guys seem to think the Laffer Curve is defined as y=1/x :D
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Re: Herman Cains 9-9-9 Tax Plan

Post by PeZook »

Alphawolf55 wrote: I never got Americans opposition to a national sales tax, Europe which I think we can agree is for the most part has more progressive economies yet has a value added tax which is basically a sales tax.

Personally I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to get rid of the bottom bracket for income tax and replace it with a sales tax while increasing aid to the poor.
Actually Alyeska is completely right.Sales taxes are usually regressive: a less affluent person will be hurt more by a global tax, because they will spend much more of their income on short-term consumption.

That's why some (though by no means many) European countries vary the rates, reducing sales tax on certain goods. Poland, for example,has a 23% sales tax on most goods, but also two lower rates, 5% and 8% on some products (mostly food, books,etc.)
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- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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