Militia shitbags plan terrorist bio-attack.

[The Romulan Republic]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/g ... ?hpt=hp_t2

Alleged militia members ask for court-appointed attorneys
By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 9:58 PM EST, Wed November 2, 2011


Men suspected in domestic terror plot
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Men ask for court-appointed attorneys
Public records show no criminal histories
The number of militia groups is up sharply since 2008, group says
Federal officials say the men planned to use explosives and ricin
Atlanta (CNN) -- Preliminary hearings were scheduled for next week after four Georgia men charged with plotting to attack government officials with explosives and a biotoxin asked Wednesday for court-appointed attorneys.
Clad in jail jumpsuits and wearing leg chains, Dan Roberts, 67, Frederick Thomas, 73, Samuel Crump, 68, and Ray Adams, 65, were advised of their rights during federal court hearings in Gainesville.
After the defendants submitted financial affidavits, U.S. Magistrate Judge Susan Cole found each qualified for a court-appointed attorney.
Cole set the preliminary and bond hearings for November 9.
Community shocked by militia arrests
Three of the four men cupped their ears at different times to hear Cole. The judge told Crump that it was important that he hear what she was saying and to raise his hand if he was not hearing her.
Federal officials say the men are part of a fringe militia group.
A government informant recorded the men discussing plans to manufacture ricin, a highly poisonous substance derived from castor beans, and attack Justice Department officials, federal judges and Internal Revenue Service agents, according to court papers released Tuesday afternoon.
Prosecutors said the public was never in imminent danger.
Neither attorney Jeffrey Ertl, who represented the four at the hearing, nor family members or friends had any comment.
According to arrest affidavits filed in the case, Roberts and Thomas agreed to buy a silencer, a bomb and parts to convert a semi-automatic rifle to a fully automatic machine gun from an undercover agent.
"When it comes time to saving the Constitution, that means some people gotta die," an arrest affidavit quotes Thomas, as saying during one recorded conversation.
Meanwhile, Adams and Crump worked to obtain castor beans and produce ricin, an FBI agent states in the documents.
"While many are focused on the threat posed by international violent extremists, this case demonstrates that we must also remain vigilant in protecting our country from citizens within our own borders who threaten our safety and security," U.S. Attorney Sally Quillian Yates said in a written statement announcing the arrests.
The affidavits don't identify the "known militia organization." But according to the documents, the men talked about spreading ricin across several cities at once, including Washington, Atlanta, New Orleans and Jacksonville, Florida. The fringe group called itself the "covert group," according to one affidavit.
The defendants have not responded publicly to the accusations. Roberts' wife declined comment when reached by CNN Wednesday.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization based in Montgomery, Alabama, that works against racism and intolerance, the number of patriot and militia groups has soared since 2008, when the economy took a sharp downturn.
Mark Potok, head of the group's Intelligence Project, told CNN Wednesday there's another factor.
"The appearance of Barack Obama on the scene ... for many of these people he really represents the changing racial demographics of the country," Potok said.
"At first you think it is another over-the-hill gang story," Potok said. "These old men sitting around ... making these plans. But according to authorities, they had taken a number of concrete steps to go ahead and actually make these things happen."
During an April meeting at his home, Thomas allegedly told participants he had a "bucket list" of politicians, government officials, corporate leaders and media figures he said should be targeted to "make the country right again."
"I could shoot ATF and IRS all day long. All the judges and the DOJ and the attorneys and prosecutors," the affidavit quotes Thomas as saying.
Crump allegedly said he wanted to make 10 pounds of ricin for distribution.
"Dump that little (unintelligible) that's all you gotta do is lay it in the damn road, the cars are gonna spread it," the affidavit quotes him as saying.
According to one of the affidavits, Crump formerly worked for a contractor doing "maintenance type services" at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.
Crump also spoke of an even deadlier substance, "worse than anthrax," but the group would need financial backing to produce it, according to the affidavit.
The document states a castor bean provided to the informant by Adams and Crump tested positive for ricin.
The U.S. Agriculture Department verified Adams formerly worked at the Agriculture Research Service as a lab technician, an affidavit says.
According to another affidavit, Thomas allegedly said the group was ready to move forward with obtaining silencers from an active-duty member of the U.S. Army. In a phone call, he also said the four began physical training to prepare for their plans, the affidavit states.
Yates told CNN Atlanta affiliate WXIA that the investigation began earlier this year when an informant talked with the FBI about conversations he had overheard. The informant taped conversations with the four suspects and an undercover agent began talking with them, Yates said.
"They had some of the (ricin) ingredients that were necessary but not all the ingredients," she said. "It's really important for the public to know and be assured that the FBI was on top of this and they were monitoring this every step of the way."
Discussions on how to spread the ricin included driving down an interstate highway and allowing it come out the window, Yates told WXIA.
According to one affidavit, the confidential informant is on bond for pending felony state charges. An FBI polygrapher determined the individual "gave less than truthful responses concerning the activities of the militia group."
But, the affidavit states, the credibility of the informant has been demonstrated by the source's accurate recounting of the conversations the source recorded during meetings, "when compared to the audio and video recordings of the meetings and physical surveillance of those meetings conducted by law enforcement agents."
Adams, Crump and Roberts are from Toccoa, about 90 miles northeast of Atlanta, while Thomas is from nearby Cleveland, Georgia, prosecutors said.
Public records show no criminal records for Roberts, Crump, and Adams, while Thomas has only driving-related offenses.
CNN's John Murgatroyd and George Howell contributed to this report.

[Simon_Jester]

Is a poison created from organic materials a bio-attack, or a chemical attack?

[The Romulan Republic]

Is a poison created from organic materials a bio-attack, or a chemical attack?

Not sure.

Either way, I hope these fellows receive life without possibility of parol.

[weemadando]

SEND THEM TO BAGRAM. IMMEDIATE DRONE STRIKES ON THEIR FAMILIES AND ACQUAINTANCES TO ENSURE WE AVOID A GENERATIONAL WAR. PUT EVERYONE WHP EVER WENT TO THEIR SCHOOLS ON THE NO FLY LIST!

Oh, they're white? Then it's just criminal, no terrorism here.

[mr friendly guy]

Just for the record, ricin is a poor chemical weapon to use for MASS attacks as it denatures in air, ie you can't use it as a gas like sarin (used to deadly effect by the Aum Supreme Truth sect in Japan). It however is deadly once injected, IIRC it works by inhibiting one of the ATPase enzymes required for cell metabolism.

There was actually a famous cold war assassination done via ricin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the treatment of terrorists is more an issue of religious rather than racial bigotry. I mean, there's been the odd white muslim who's had their rights violated, hasn't there?

Not that it is the least bit okay either way.

Though I'm glad if these men are getting a fair trial. That's what we should do every time. Give them a fair trial, and if convicted, give them life in prison.

[Bedlam]

Is a poison created from organic materials a bio-attack, or a chemical attack?

I dont know what the technicalm definition is but I'd think the use of an organic toxin would be a chemical weapon. To me to be a biological weapon it would need to involve a live reproducing biological organism.

[mr friendly guy]

Funny thing is, say with some bacteria like gram negative bacteria, the reasons they are devastating is because of their toxin. So one might imagine the line between chemical and biological weapon might become a bit blurred. I know this is getting side track, but if someone uses a snake toxin to poison its a chemical, but if someone uses the entire snake it bites the victim, is it now a biological weapon?

[someone_else]

Is a poison created from organic materials a bio-attack, or a chemical attack?

Given the current conventions, it would be both. (so yes, a snake's toxin would be both a chemical and a biologic attack, regardless of how reaches the victims)

A slightly more sane rule of thumb I've been told is: bio-attack implies that the payload is something that could be defined "alive".

So, according to this rule of thumb, an attack using a bacteria/insect/snakes is a bio-attack, an attack using toxic stuff produced from bacteria/snakes/anything else is a chemical attack.

The difference in practice is that the bio-attack agent can reproduce (it's alive duh!) and spread on its own, so it can be a royal pain in the ass to contain if chosen wisely, while even the best chemical won't reproduce (it's not alive duh!) so will eventually disperse/break down on its own.

The rule of thumb isn't exactly legal but it is aimed to avoid screwups on the field, since operation procedures differ.

[mr friendly guy]

Well if you go by that definition viruses aren't necessarily biological since its disputable whether they are alive, or rather just parcels of genetic information.

Also take prion diseases. They are essentially proteins which can alter similar proteins in the human it infects to the same structure. They aren't strictly alive but can reproduce as well via the above mechanism. Although its very hard to use this as a weapon, unless you contaminate food supplies.

[Mr Bean]

Bio-weapons by definition are self spreading anything that's organic but requires distrubtion and won't spread on it's own is just a bio-chemical weapon or chemical weapon.
As Stuart was key to point out the difference between a Chemical weapon and Bio-weapon was control methods. IE if you release Super Ebola into a subway car it's not just the subway car that's dangerous but every human who passes through that cloud and everywhere they go is a walking weapon spreading it to any humans they meet leaving little traces of it on everything they touch.

Bio-weapons are the ones that spread themselves.

[K. A. Pital]

No. Chemical weapons are inanimate chemicals. Bioweapons are any infection agents regardless of virulence. Anthrax does not spread "on it's own" and yet it is a bioweapon.

[Simon_Jester]

No. Chemical weapons are inanimate chemicals. Bioweapons are any infection agents regardless of virulence. Anthrax does not spread "on it's own" and yet it is a bioweapon.

Ricin, derived from a bean, is indeed inanimate. Ricin molecules don't breed, and don't match any definition of life that I know of. Anthrax does- but then, we classify it as 'alive' in large part because it reproduces. Anthrax doesn't spread on its own, but it reproduces on its own- which affects the lethal dose, among other things; one anthrax virus can kill you where one molecule of a toxin can't.

[mr friendly guy]

Dude. Anthrax isn't a virus. Its a bacteria. IIRC India still occasionally outbreaks of anthrax. Granted natural anthrax is not quite like biological weapons anthrax, and can be killed by common antibiotics, IIRC including penicillin.

[someone_else]

Well if you go by that definition viruses aren't necessarily biological since its disputable whether they are alive, or rather just parcels of genetic information

The definition of life that I've been told is: anything that can replicate itself under the right conditions is alive. Do they replicate themselves if in the right conditions? Hell yes, they do.
Besides, most well-known viruses have so complex behaviors during the infection that make even the worst bacteria look outright dumb. Like say herpes.

Also take prion diseases. They are essentially proteins which can alter similar proteins in the human it infects to the same structure.

Different mechanism same effect. Although most are way simpler than viruses.

Chemical weapons are inanimate chemicals. Bioweapons are any infection agents regardless of virulence.

True, but toxins with organic origin fall into both bio-weapon and chemical weapons, as of current treaties. So there is indeed some blur between the two.

But yes, how fast it spreads (or if it spreads at all) is not a factor in categorizing it as chemical or bioweapon.

Technically speaking, if you want a bioweapon to spread far and wide (which is the only good reason imho to use it instead of much stabler and reliable chemicals), you don't want it to be INSTANTLY LETHAL like say Ebola.
Very fast acting stuff tends to be self-contained (i.e. they kill every carrier well before it can spread the illness to really serious levels), and thus has a more similar effect to a long-lasting chemical weapon.

[mr friendly guy]

Well if you go by that definition viruses aren't necessarily biological since its disputable whether they are alive, or rather just parcels of genetic information

The definition of life that I've been told is: anything that can replicate itself under the right conditions is alive. Do they replicate themselves if in the right conditions? Hell yes, they do.
Besides, most well-known viruses have so complex behaviors during the infection that make even the worst bacteria look outright dumb. Like say herpes.

Ok, I don't know what they taught in your high school, but in mine we were taught about life having 7 processes. Here, just read the wiki summary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

Anything that replicates under right conditions is such a broad terminology, because frankly under the right conditions a lot of things will replicate. For example weather conditions like snow, will replicate, but I don't think any one would consider snow alive.

[Winston Blake]

How about this:

Forms of damage: chemical, infectious, thermal, mechanical. Thermal and mechanical means are conventional and will not be mentioned further.

• 1. Chemical weapon: substance which harms by primarily chemical means, i.e. a chemical reaction. This includes reactions specific to organisms, such as interference with the chemical reactions that form the nervous system. An example of reactions not specific to organisms would be those caused by corrosive substances.
  
  2. Bio-derived chemical weapon: substance which harms by primarily chemical means, but is derived from organisms, and so is manufactured using methods similar to those used for biological weapons and controlled by similar laws and enforcement methods.
  
  3. Biological weapon: substance which harms by primarily infectious means, i.e. causing damage as a result of microbial reproduction inside the host body, whether human, animal or plant. May or may not reproduce outside a host.

Further:

• 4. Macro-biological weapon?: an organism which harms an ecology as a result of its reproduction, but is not a microbe. E.g. insects used to destroy wheat, rabbits introduced as pests, or plants introduced as weeds.
  
  5. Minmay-biological weapon: an organism which defeats the enemy by primarily vocal means.

The confusion of terms exists because #2, #3 & #4 are called 'biological weapons', and #1 and #2 are called 'chemical weapons'. A better nomenclature would be:

Chemical weapon types: synthetic chemical weapon, bio-derived chemical weapon.
Biological weapon types: microbiological weapon, macrobiological weapon.

[Formless]

Bioweapons have been a curiosity of mine for a while, so here's my take.

The reason Ricin, Botox, and other organic toxins are considered biological weapons when their usage and means of operation would suggest that they are chemical weapons is that the US Army division that researched them was different from the one that researched synthetic toxins like sarin and agent orange. Seriously, that's the biggest reason. Presumably the reason they were researched by Fort Detrick and not somewhere else was that they are produced differently than a synthetic toxin is.

It should be noted that bioweapons in general more closely resemble chemical weapons in usage than most people realize. Also, in the US research program none of the agents that could be dispersed by air were viruses, despite what many people think. Most of them were actually entomological weapons (in other words they are spread by blood sucking insects; mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, etc.) that had to be dispersed by aircraft.

People have this image that bioweapons are supposed to be self spreading contagious angents, but in reality most of the classic bioweapons like anthrax and Tularemia just create an environmental hazard like a chemical weapon would. Most of them do not "turn every person who contracts them into a weapon". That's just what wankers like Stuart want people to believe because "lol, islamoterrorists". Think about it: there are as many potential bioweapons in existence as there are infectious diseases (if you ignore that most will not be practical as weapons), but not all infectious diseases are contagious from person to person!

They do behave differently than a toxin in that they have an incubation period and, in the case of incapacitating agents like Tularemia, they aren't necessarily intended to kill you as long as they leave you sick in the hospital where you can't participate in a theoretical war effort.
Granted, the Soviet Union had its own program that differed from the US one; they were the ones that researched smallpox as a weapon, and it most definitely is the kind of contagious virus that most people think of when they think of bioweapons. I don't know how it was supposed to work, the Russians haven't declassified as much about their program as the US has. However, from what I've gathered they researched a lot of the same diseases (i.e. good old anthrax).

Anyway, I hope that clarifies stuff for people. You can find a lot of this information on the web, even if you just skim wikipedia, because the US declassified so much about their program. Winston's classification system more accurately reflects reality than the simple labels "chemical weapons, biological weapons, nukes" convey. I would only add a few more distinctions (some of which have come up in the research I've done on the subject):

1) As I already mentioned, incapacitating agents. Think of these as the less-lethal category for bioweapons.

2) Anti-agriculture weapons. Not every weapon out there was or is intended to target humans, you know. These can further be subdivided by whether they are intended to infect crops or livestock.

3) Entomological weapons, as mentioned, are considered a distinct classification among bioweapons. They don't store very well, from what I've heard, because frankly insects don't live very long lives.

4) Environmental hazard weapons. I'd consider this a general class of WMD that people often ignore-- weapons that have a long lasting presence in the environment if not properly cleaned up. Many chemical weapons are like this, anthrax is like this if not cleaned thoroughly, and of course nukes leave fallout and nuclear winter/autumn effects. This I belive is one of the biggest actual reasons that they are considered hard to control, again rather than the "turns everyone into a weapon" bullshit that guys like Stuart like to peddle.

And of course remember that with the diversity of bioweapons some of them will fall under multiple classifications.