Been a pleasure, Europe

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Surlethe
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Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Surlethe »

Buh-bye.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-run- ... ls-2011-11
Business Insider wrote:Until recently, the concern about Europe has been mostly theoretical--a potential train-wreck that would occur if/when the world's lenders decided that the continent's problems extended beyond the basket case known as Greece and cut lending to Europe's "core."
Well, that concern is no longer theoretical.

It's happening.

The world's lenders are increasingly deciding that it's better to be safe than sorry, and they're pulling their money out of Europe.
As a result, the borrowing costs of many European countries are rising fast. And so are inter-bank lending rates, because the second huge problem with the Euro-train-wreck is that Europe's banks have Euro debts coming out of their ears.
(When bond yields rise, the market value of existing bonds drops, so any bank that owns the debt of any European country is suffering huge embedded losses. The banks don't mark these losses to market, so you can't see them on the balance sheet, but they're there.)

Last week, Italian borrowing costs soared over 7%, which has been viewed as a sort of Rubicon level. Spanish yields hit nearly 7%. And French "spreads" over German bonds expanded sharply.

Nelson Schwartz in this weekend's New York Times has some other details:

The Royal Bank of Scotland and pension funds in the Netherlands have been heavy sellers of European sovereign debts in recent days.

Kokusai Asset Management in Japan unloaded nearly $1 billion in Italian debt this month.

Vanguard let a $300 million CD with Rabobank expire earlier this month and pulled the money out of Europe

European banks like SocGen and BNP Paribas cut exposure to Italy by 26 billion euros in Q3

American money-market funds have cut their exposure to European bank paper by 54% ($261 billion) since May

And so on.

The interbank-lending problems, by the way, are exactly what happened in the United States in 2007 and 2008.
If the run continues, for banks and countries and companies that live on borrowed money, the effect will be similar to the oxygen being sucked out of the room.

And because of the absurd opacity of bank balance sheets, there's no way to tell when or if some critical threshold will be breached and banks and insurance companies (think AIG) will suddenly have to start handing over tens of billions of dollars of "collateral" to counter-parties, blowing huge holes in their balance sheets.

Importantly, once runs like this get started, they can accelerate fast. Recall how quickly Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers went from angry denials and "exploring options" to bust. Recall how quickly, a month ago, MF Global went from confident to flailing to broke.

Check out these two charts of the "TED Spread," which shows the difference between LIBOR (London Interbank Offered Rate) and US T-bills.

The first shows the sharp rise in the TED since the summer. The second, which extends back 5 years, shows how quickly the spread exploded in 2007 and 2008. As the latter chart illustrates, you can go from "concern" to "crisis" overnight.

Right now, Europe's leaders are still denying that there's a problem, and market pundits are still talking about possible solutions.

But most of the possible solutions are still focused on the ultimate fate of the Euro--which, increasingly, is the least of the world's worries.

Whether the Euro survives, and how, is something that will likely take several years to work out.

The much more immediate crisis--and the way this week went, it may be a VERY immediate crisis--is whether the Eurozone can stave off a full-blown bank and sovereign debt panic.

The temporary solution that everyone is focused on is for the European Central Bank to step in and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of European sovereign debt to get rates down and keep them down.

Importantly, this solution it would not be easy or problem-free. It also wouldn't be permanent. It might not even be possible. The Germans, and the ECB, are adamant that this solution is not even a possibility. And even if the ECB could marshal the support to start buying, it would have to keep buying, day after day, month after month, and display total resolve in its public statements. It would have to keep buying until the Euro-zone's problems are sorted out, which could take years. It would have to figure out how to deal with the "moral hazard" of funding the deficits of most European countries and, therefore, removing any incentive for the countries to get their deficits under control. And, eventually, it would have to deal with the extreme inflation this "money printing" would likely produce.

In other words, if the situation continues to deteriorate--and barring some miracle, it will--the only way to stave off disaster looks less like an inevitable move and more like a Hail Mary pass.

The next few months, as the Chinese might say, are going to be interesting.
Don't take us with you, plea- what? The American shadow banking system is ... European banks, you say?
Krugman wrote:A nice phrase from my colleague Hyun Song Shin (pdf), describing what’s happening in Europe right now.

The paper covers much more ground than that, of course. This is the latest in a series of papers arguing that the U.S. shadow banking system consists in large part of … European banks. This suggests that the creation of the euro had large implications even in US capital markets; and of course it suggests that the financial fallout of the euromess could be very large here as well.

In short, the ECB could be in the process of destroying not just the euro, but the world.
Well, at least Europe has a central bank. They can print money, keep NGDP expectations up, not let the debt problem get too out of han- huh? Did you just say the ECB is committed to keeping inflation expectations down?
Krugman again, quoting Draghi wrote:I had some hopes for Mario Draghi; he has just done his best to kill those hopes. In his view, it’s all about credibility, defined thusly:
Credibility implies that our monetary policy is successful in anchoring inflation expectations over the medium and longer term. This is the major contribution we can make in support of sustainable growth, employment creation and financial stability. And we are making this contribution in full independence.
Unbelievable. Right now, the ECB has too much credibility on the inflation front; the spread between German nominal and real interest rates, which is an implicit forecast of the inflation rate, is pointing to disastrously low medium-term inflation.
Welp, looks like we have the world's largest economy, formed with an implicit statement that all euros everywhere were equal in value, with periphery countries literally unable to balance their books or raise enough revenue to meet their obligations and banks dangerously exposed to that sovereign debt (because, mind, regulators told them that all sovereign debt was perfectly equal) and tangled up in the world's second-biggest economy, and an insane central bank at the helm too busy fighting imaginary inflation to take notice of the crisis. Hellooo, 1932!
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Thanas »

Less hyperventilating and more calm, please.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

The problem with the current crisis is that any solution that might actually work is a solution that has no public mandate. If, for example, you let the European Central Bank print money to buy debt, you create massive moral hazard, as explained in the article. This can only be alleviated by granting further regulatory powers to the European Union, for which there is no democratic support. It is, by the way, illegal for the European Central Bank to buy bonds on the primary market; it might be legal on the secondary market, but the idea of printing money to subsidize governments is exactly what the treaties aimed to prevent - using a loophole like 'but we're not buying it from the governments directly' is just that: a loophole. In effect, in order to have any legitimacy at all, the reforms will need a treaty change - but there is widespread anger at the Union right now, and giving more power to it is very unpopular. There's a reason Dutch and French far right parties are suddenly arguing for abandoning the euro: it's an idea that's growing in popularity.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I am going to ask a question now, and it may well be either an obvious or a stupid one, but I ask it as an economic layman (I understand you should spend less than you earn and that's about it) so I seek to learn.

My question is:

What would happen if all the nations met and decided that as of that moment, no nation owed another any money? Wiped the slate and started fresh?
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I am going to ask a question now, and it may well be either an obvious or a stupid one, but I ask it as an economic layman (I understand you should spend less than you earn and that's about it) so I seek to learn.

My question is:

What would happen if all the nations met and decided that as of that moment, no nation owed another any money? Wiped the slate and started fresh?
because they owe banks money not each other.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

All right, what if the nations and the banks agreed to wipe out all the debt?
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:All right, what if the nations and the banks agreed to wipe out all the debt?
then things like pension funds and trusts that depend on the interest generated by the debts would suddenly not have any income. Old poor pension recipients would starve to death. Rich people would miss their Maybach payments etc.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

Governments sell bonds to raise capital for public expenditures. Private investors, banks and funds purchase these bonds so that they can earn money on them; in effect, they temporarily give money to the government in exchange for interest payments. However, governments aren't the only issuers of bonds; corporations and even individuals do the same thing. For a long time, what set government bonds apart from others is the fact that they were regarded as having a very low risk of default (i.e. the issuer of the bond not abiding by its commitments). They are now losing that status as markets are coming to believe that there is a risk of default with nation-states (as investors in Greek government paper are keenly aware of right now).

If nations suddenly get together and decide to no longer pay their debts, this will have a number of effects:
- banks will have to take massive losses to their balance sheets, with the likely result of bankruptcy (taking pension funds, deposits etc. with them)
- issuers of credit default swaps will have to take massive losses to their balance sheets, with the likely result of bankruptcy
- the investors that didn't go under due to these effects will tend to regard investing in government debt with suspicion (therefore limiting governmental ability to guarantee deposits, pay pensions, etc.)
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

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Zed wrote:Governments sell bonds to raise capital for public expenditures. Private investors, banks and funds purchase these bonds so that they can earn money on them; in effect, they temporarily give money to the government in exchange for interest payments. However, governments aren't the only issuers of bonds; corporations and even individuals do the same thing. For a long time, what set government bonds apart from others is the fact that they were regarded as having a very low risk of default (i.e. the issuer of the bond not abiding by its commitments). They are now losing that status as markets are coming to believe that there is a risk of default with nation-states (as investors in Greek government paper are keenly aware of right now).

If nations suddenly get together and decide to no longer pay their debts, this will have a number of effects:
- banks will have to take massive losses to their balance sheets, with the likely result of bankruptcy (taking pension funds, deposits etc. with them)
- issuers of credit default swaps will have to take massive losses to their balance sheets, with the likely result of bankruptcy
- the investors that didn't go under due to these effects will tend to regard investing in government debt with suspicion (therefore limiting governmental ability to guarantee deposits, pay pensions, etc.)
Furthermore this would destroy a government's bond rating and their ability to borrow in the future as a way to fund large public works projects... roadways, trains, schools etc.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

So it would be a bad idea. Fair enough.

This whole system seems convoluted and broken. Is there a solution at all? (I mean a possible, even theoretical, solution, not necessarily practical).
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:This whole system seems convoluted and broken. Is there a solution at all? (I mean a possible, even theoretical, solution, not necessarily practical).
I'd say that governments would be better off if they didn't have any debt to pay off in the first place, but then again, running austerity budgets tends to be bad for economic growth unless you have an export-based economy. Unfortunately, by definition, not every country can be a net exporter - so some countries aren't going to be as successful. Normally, these export-import problems are mitigated by currencies changing in value. For instance, it would be more expensive to buy German goods in Greece if these two countries still had resp. the mark and the drachma. It would also have been cheaper for Germans to buy Greek goods. Due to the fact that these countries have the same currency, the German economy effectively functions with an undervalued currency, while the Greek economy functions with an overvalued one. In general, when these situations occur, this is mitigated by financial transfer mechanisms. Unfortunately, there is no political will to support these transfer mechanisms, seeing as the European Union isn't a nation state.

In effect, the solutions are either to strengthen the Union (either introducing a manner of financial transfer or at the very least adapting stricter financial controls on governmental budgets, although it's probably too late for the latter to suffice), or to dissolve the Eurozone. Both of these come with all sorts of problems.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I think, Zed, you're confusing trade deficits with budget deficits. Ireland, for example, is a net exporter and yet has a budget deficit thanks to inadequate tax receipts. They're being hobbled by the Euro, yes, but they enjoyed it earlier before the recession when they had a surplus. So did Spain. Finland is the other way around; they have a trade surplus and a budget deficit.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

I'm not conflating the two. When a government runs an austerity budget, that tends to have a negative effect on economic growth (the Greek economy has shrunk rather significantly since it began cutting its budget, for example). If your economy shrinks, your tax revenues will shrink, thereby reducing your governmental revenues, diminishing the effects of your austerity budget. Seeing as the cost of living tends to rise during such times, internal consumption will be reduced. In such a case, in order to keep your economy growing, it's necessary to sell your production to other countries. In other words, your country's economic growth is reliant on another country's willingness to import - and, such as in the case of Germany and Greece, of the other country's willingness to get into debt to import your goods.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by J »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:This whole system seems convoluted and broken. Is there a solution at all? (I mean a possible, even theoretical, solution, not necessarily practical).
Sure, benevolent aliens zap our planet with a magic beamtm which fixes everything.

But in reality? No. All we can choose from now are less bad solutions, bad solutions, really bad solutions, and who bears the burden & pain from the attempted fixes. At best we can contain the banking & sovereign defaults to some extent and hope that it's enough to keep the entire system from collapsing like the house of cards it is. No matter what we do now, some countries will go bankrupt and default, same with banks, same with pensions, same with savings, the only questions are who, which ones, and how much.

Three years ago we had a chance to fix things while it was still a banking problem. We didn't. It's now a sovereign default problem on top of being a banking problem and infinitely harder to solve.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

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Thanas wrote:Less hyperventilating and more calm, please.
'Hyperventilating'? Seriously? Do you even admit that the end of the euro and mass sovereign default can be discussed without descending 'hysterical nonsense'? At what point in the process of driving a car off a cliff does it become reasonable to discuss that there might be a problem with your plan? You appear to consider it 'hyperventilating' right up until the car actually hits the water.

If that's how we're playing it then I will happily consider all Germans concerned about printing euros to be inflationary to be 'hyperventilating', as there is no real evidence (that meets my vaguely defined yet ludicrously high standards of proof) that printing money in a modern economy like the euro has ever caused inflation. Printing lots of euros is no big deal, so just stay calm.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by J »

Thanas wrote:Less hyperventilating and more calm, please.
Yes. Of course. Everything is under control. There are no problems with the Euro or the Eurozone.
Our currency and political union is stronger than ever.
Relax everyone, relax!

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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Ryan Thunder »

I have to admit that I just don't get it. This is all stuff that's going to happen because of numbers recorded somewhere--why are we paying them any attention again when there's nothing--and I hesitate to word it this way but it'll have to do--nothing real involved? If the economic system's a program why can't we just put it into debug mode and change the way a few variables are handled? If there are real physical material resources tied up in this crisis somehow then ship them around until things add up. If they don't add up then figure out why they don't and cheat a bit if you have to in order to fix it.

Why are we playing by the rules if they're inconvenient to everybody involved?
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

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Because those rules are the basis of the economy. And their consistency is what gives anyone the confidence to put their money into the system.

If politicians can break the rules and redistribute money however they like with the right excuse, that confidence is shot.

To put it in the terms of your analogy - because you don't have root access to the system this is running on. The system is people, and all the rules of the economy are designed to accommodate that simple fact.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

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Because the 'unreal' numbers are numbers of euros, and everyone in Europe is paying each other in euros. All their bank savings are in euros. Euros are the unit of value in European society, just as if they were tiny gold bricks.

If something goes wrong and suddenly there are twice as many euros, people will not simply accept the same number of euros in payment for goods or services. Things get more expensive. This is bad if you had a fixed number of euros saved up, or if someone owed you a fixed number of euros- because someone else gets all those extra euros that were printed, and you don't. In relative terms, you just lost half your life savings with the stroke of a pen. You may even lose more, if people decide that there's nothing stopping the government from printing three or four times more euros, and the expected value of euros declines.

Hence inflation. As for government debt:

Governments need money to pay for things. Governments can't just arbitrarily print money, because if they do no one will take it- it becomes the equivalent of a scribbled IOU from some dodgy guy you met behind the 7/11. So if they need more money than they have right now, or if they don't want to blow all the money stored in petty cash on a single big project, they borrow. Which means someone has to lend them money, reasonably confident they'll get the money back later (when tax receipts come in, usually).

If government says "nuh-uh, the money we borrowed is staying with us, fuck you!" then no one will lend them more money, and the entire mechanism of government falls apart unless the government literally tries to force everyone to do things at gunpoint- which doesn't work nearly as well as paying them real money.


What it comes down to, Ryan, is that we couldn't run our civilization at all without bookkeeping, paperwork, and "everyone agrees to believe in fairies" abstractions like fiat currency. These things have power, because we rely on them to organize ourselves and make sure things get done on a day to day basis. But now we've left that power in the hands of people who cook the books, play three-card monte with the paperwork, and ruthlessly exploit our belief in fairies.

What you want to do is, essentially, burn all the paperwork and start over. This would work if we didn't have so many institutions that run on paper. Who is responsible for making sure old people can get food? Right now, that responsibility is covered by pension funds, which are institutions that store up big piles of money, accumulate more money through taxation and investment, and dole out money to people who bought into the pension plan back in the day. If we abolish the paperwork (repudiate government bonds owned by the pension funds, damage the banks in which old people store their savings, and so on)... who feeds the old people? Society forgets to do it when there isn't a system of paperwork responsible for making it happen.

I understand the frustration, but realistically we have to dismantle the machines slowly, in a way that lets us rebuild them. Ignoring them just creates chaos.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Starglider »

Simon_Jester wrote:If something goes wrong and suddenly there are twice as many euros
Ridiculous. Stop being hysterical.
people will not simply accept the same number of euros in payment for goods or services
Prove it.
Things get more expensive.
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Seriously, changing prices is not trivial. It breaks customer expectations, screws up financial planning, contracts have to be renegotiated, things have to be relabeled etc. Not many prices are changed just because 'we heard the central bank is printing money' (only exchange-traded instruments are that liquid). Prices change due to supply-demand pressures. The impact of printing a lot of money depends on where that money goes, what its initial velocity is, how fast it trickles out into the economy etc. Buying first issue government debt with printed money has no direct effect on the amount of money the government will spend, unless things were so bad their bond auctions would fail. What it does do is release private capital that would have been spent on government bonds to go somewhere else, as does non-sterilised intervention in secondary bond markets. If that capital goes out of the country or sits in central bank reserve accounts indefinitely then the printing really is non-inflationary in the short term, although inevitably FX rates are affected and thus imports become more expensive. If it goes into mortgage backed securities then house prices are inflated, although this is relative to the baseline so in a housing it may merely prop up the existing prices. This is in fact exactly what we've seen in the US though QE1 and QE2.
This is bad if you had a fixed number of euros saved up, or if someone owed you a fixed number of euros- because someone else gets all those extra euros that were printed, and you don't.
This is inevitable in the long run unless the central bank withdraws the liquidity again before it hits the general economy. The Federal Reserve pinkie swear that they absolutely will do this if the massive amounts of money they've printed ever show up as a high inflation number (in the official manipulated stats, real inflation as measued by say the Million Prices Project is much higher). I am sure the ECB would say 'shadow banking collapse... liquidity crunch... low velocity of money... no chance of inflation... avoid deflation... absolutely necessary... short term measure... can reabsorb liquidity in 15 minutes if inflation spikes...' (insert eurowaffle to pad that out to 50 pages and 5 separate press releases). In reality the liquidity won't be withdrawn because we are at the end of a 20 year credit boom, experiencing record fund drawdawns due to demographics and absent of trickery there is just insufficient fresh investment to roll all the live debt, never mind fund deficits. So yes in reality prices will rise, probably led by oil prices (in euros); oil prices are closely tied to FX markets and have fast push through the economy. Beurecrats of the Thanasian tradition will deny deny deny the inflation as much and as long as possible though, and expect to see more statistical trickery out of Europe similar to the US 'chained CPI' shenanigans (they can put the Greek eurocrats to work devising these).
What you want to do is, essentially, burn all the paperwork and start over. This would work if we didn't have so many institutions that run on paper.
Netting things out would help significantly, but it would kill profits for a lot of market participants (mostly banks) who take a commission both ways when country A buys country B's debt just so that B can turn around and buy A's debt. This would be a good thing of course, but those entities own a lot of politicians.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Hillary »

I have to say this thread reminds me of the "bread queues before the year's out" one that appeared when the banking crisis first hit the US.

Yes, the shit has hit the fan and it isn't pretty, but this type of over-reaction is very premature.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Surlethe »

Look, printing lots of euros might under some circumstances be hyperinflationary. Those circumstances: full employment, no sovereign debt problems, financial system not about to implode. Maybe even in current circumstances, excessive printing of euros would be hyperinflationary, like increasing the money supply a million percent a year.

Any fears about hyperinflation are so completely unfounded, it's not even worth thinking about. The ECB is not flirting with printing too much money. The ECB is going to undershoot their inflation target this year (see the OP). That's not the sign of a central bank on the verge of causing a hyperinflation, that's the sign of a central bank that's about to let its economy plunge into a deflationary recession and let the financial system collapse because it's too worried about imaginary inflation. That's what the Fed did in 1930, that's what the Bank of Japan did in the '90s and early 2000s, that's what the Fed did in 2008, that's what the ECB is about to do now.
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Zed
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

Hillary wrote:I have to say this thread reminds me of the "bread queues before the year's out" one that appeared when the banking crisis first hit the US.

Yes, the shit has hit the fan and it isn't pretty, but this type of over-reaction is very premature.
It's not thát premature. Spain's latest T-bill auction had higher interest rates than Greece's. The contagion has gone pretty far.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Starglider »

Hillary wrote:I have to say this thread reminds me of the "bread queues before the year's out" one that appeared when the banking crisis first hit the US. Yes, the shit has hit the fan and it isn't pretty, but this type of over-reaction is very premature.
Queuing is caused by supply shortages. The US has the complete opposite; a demand shortage leaving massive surplus production capability. The result is people relying on hand-outs, which modern technology renders almost invisible (a SNAP card works just like a credit card);

Image

Are you saying that you're absolutely fine with your pension being cut in half and half the people you know being unemployed, because as long as there are no bread queues then nothing serious can be wrong? That's great, no need for troubling crisis talk or tedious political change then, go back to watching dancing with the stars.
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Re: Been a pleasure, Europe

Post by Zed »

Surlethe wrote:Look, printing lots of euros might under some circumstances be hyperinflationary. Those circumstances: full employment, no sovereign debt problems, financial system not about to implode. Maybe even in current circumstances, excessive printing of euros would be hyperinflationary, like increasing the money supply a million percent a year.

Any fears about hyperinflation are so completely unfounded, it's not even worth thinking about. The ECB is not flirting with printing too much money. The ECB is going to undershoot their inflation target this year (see the OP). That's not the sign of a central bank on the verge of causing a hyperinflation, that's the sign of a central bank that's about to let its economy plunge into a deflationary recession and let the financial system collapse because it's too worried about imaginary inflation. That's what the Fed did in 1930, that's what the Bank of Japan did in the '90s and early 2000s, that's what the Fed did in 2008, that's what the ECB is about to do now.
Good, you've convinced us. Now convince the Germans.
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