Cassis Belli (warning:graphic)

[Col. Crackpot]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 07,00.html

i'm farmilliar with the piece of equipment described in the article due to my experience in the plastics industry, and i can't imagine a more horrible way to die....

[Darth Wong]

Of course the current Iraq regime is evil. No one has disputed that. The cynicism comes from the fact that so many evil regimes seem to be either ignored or even supported by the US while this one (which just happens to have strategic usefulness) is not.

[Col. Crackpot]

If we sat around saying that, then we'd never accomplish much of anything would we? You have to pick your battles and set an example.

[Nathan F]

Don't guess you have heard of hydrochloric acid torture device, have you? He takes a person, strips them down, and tosses them in a small room that has pipes that randomly drop droplets of HCl onto the victim, making it where you cannot stand in one place for more than a second. You are left in there until you finally cannot move anymore and are slowly killed by the acid.

[Stormbringer]

Of course the current Iraq regime is evil. No one has disputed that. The cynicism comes from the fact that so many evil regimes seem to be either ignored or even supported by the US while this one (which just happens to have strategic usefulness) is not.

A lot of evil regimes have existed and a lot have been supported by more powerful (and sometimes equally evil) countries. The US is hardly alone in that regard and the fact is we're cleaning up the mess we helped make. So why is it people have a problem with that?

[Col. Crackpot]

Don't guess you have heard of hydrochloric acid torture device, have you? He takes a person, strips them down, and tosses them in a small room that has pipes that randomly drop droplets of HCl onto the victim, making it where you cannot stand in one place for more than a second. You are left in there until you finally cannot move anymore and are slowly killed by the acid.

the machine from the article, a granulator/grinder is a nasty piece of equipment. we use them to grind scrap plastic to be reblended with virgin material and recycled. Most consist of a neck that leads to a three or 4 blade rotary head spinning upwards of a thousand rpm. Plastic is fed through the neck and and is cut and gradually falls through a metal screen that looks like a cheese grater. You have to limit the flow of plastic into the rotary head as not to jam the machine. I would imagine the same is true for a human being, so it would be a brutally slow way to die as your feet and legs are gradually chopped away and you are rendered into a liquis with fine grain sized bits. here are some pictures i grabbed from a supplier's website:

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

A lot of evil regimes have existed and a lot have been supported by more powerful (and sometimes equally evil) countries. The US is hardly alone in that regard and the fact is we're cleaning up the mess we helped make. So why is it people have a problem with that?

If our goal was to clean up the mess we made, I'd be in the cheering section. But that's not the goal at all. The goal is to help Shrub's ass-buddies build a bigger empire atop a mound of bodies, many of those belonging to our sons and daughters. People like to say you don't support our troops if you're against the war. I think it's just the opposite. If you're for the war (and you haven't bought the ridiculous Iraq = Al-Qaeda bullshit) then you consider our economic interests to be more important than the lives of our soldiers. And you call that supporting them?

EDIT: I should also point out our country's absolutely abysmal track record in "country building". It's possible Iraq might be better off after we leave it, it's just as possible it will be worse off, but either way, the cost in human life will be high.

[Col. Crackpot]

If our goal was to clean up the mess we made, I'd be in the cheering section. But that's not the goal at all. The goal is to help Shrub's ass-buddies build a bigger empire atop a mound of bodies, many of those belonging to our sons and daughters. People like to say you don't support our troops if you're against the war. I think it's just the opposite. If you're for the war (and you haven't bought the ridiculous Iraq = Al-Qaeda bullshit) then you consider our economic interests to be more important than the lives of our soldiers. And you call that supporting them?

do you listen to the rancid feces that is spouting from your mouth? look at the things this lunatic Hussein does! How can you in any way insinuate that Bush is what you say? Do you have any shred of fucking proof to back anything you say? Did Bush try and assinate the Pope, or a sitting head of state? Did Bush launch a nerve gas attack against citizens of his own country? Does Bush stick his political opponets in industrial grinding equipment? But you don't give a fuck. you know what, go to the peace march with the rest of the lemmings and try to solve the worlds problems with rhetorical slogans and bong hits, that's about all you are good for.

[Hamel]

But you don't give a fuck. you know what, go to the peace march with the rest of the lemmings and try to solve the worlds problems with rhetorical slogans and bong hits, that's about all you are good for.

Then why don't you sign up at your local recruitment station and get your pimply ass to Bahgdad ASAP! Move it soldier! MOVE MOVE MOVE!

[Col. Crackpot]

But you don't give a fuck. you know what, go to the peace march with the rest of the lemmings and try to solve the worlds problems with rhetorical slogans and bong hits, that's about all you are good for.

Then why don't you sign up at your local recruitment station and get your pimply ass to Bahgdad ASAP! Move it soldier! MOVE MOVE MOVE!

if you only knew.

[Hamel]

if you only knew.

Just don't act like you give a fuck about the Iraqi people. We know better.

[theski]

Hameru, you still have 31hrs to become a human shield...

[Col. Crackpot]

if you only knew.

Just don't act like you give a fuck about the Iraqi people. We know better.

I resent that. just because i am of a rightward leaning political persuasion and i support the actions of my government in wartime you think you can prejudge me? Fuck that! You know, i do care about these people. you and i just disagree with which way is the best way to sole a problem, lets agree to disagree there. But you have no right to go around making prejudicial statements about me.

[Hamel]

Hameru, you still have 31hrs to become a human shield...

to teh recue!!!!

[Hamel]

I resent that. just because i am of a rightward leaning political persuasion and i support the actions of my government in wartime you think you can prejudge me? Fuck that! You know, i do care about these people. you and i just disagree with which way is the best way to sole a problem, lets agree to disagree there. But you have no right to go around making prejudicial statements about me.

Uh oh

You kinda judged the shit out of Tux

[Stormbringer]

If our goal was to clean up the mess we made, I'd be in the cheering section. But that's not the goal at all. The goal is to help Shrub's ass-buddies build a bigger empire atop a mound of bodies, many of those belonging to our sons and daughters.

Oh of course it must be about oil? Yeah, sure. How's the weather up your own ass?

You know what this war comes down to? Saddam. He's a marginally sane dictator with WMD, a grudge against us, and no scruples at all. I don't think he's in bed with Bin Laden but he is a dangerous loon in a region where there's a surplus of dangerous loons.

Not to mentions he's violated the UN resolution and the cease fire agreements for better than a decade and only namby pamby foriegn policy prevented us from doing any thing.

If you're for the war (and you haven't bought the ridiculous Iraq = Al-Qaeda bullshit) then you consider our economic interests to be more important than the lives of our soldiers. And you call that supporting them?

Listen you hippy prick, those troopers (including some people I consider friends) are willing to give their lives to take out a dangerous madman. I believe in this for moral reasons and I would if it were a dirt poor country as well.

[Col. Crackpot]

I resent that. just because i am of a rightward leaning political persuasion and i support the actions of my government in wartime you think you can prejudge me? Fuck that! You know, i do care about these people. you and i just disagree with which way is the best way to sole a problem, lets agree to disagree there. But you have no right to go around making prejudicial statements about me.

Uh oh

You kinda judged the shit out of Tux

i judged his statement, and i called him on it. i also reccomended a course of action that is compatable with the statement.

[The Yosemite Bear]

No what they are saying is Look at what China does to the Tibetiens, Look at what Chile, Paraguy, etc did. Look at what the Shaw did to Iran before Komenhi replaced him. Look at what the pro-US/Anti-communist forces in Cambodia did before they were replaced by the even more brutal Pol Pot dictatorship, Look at what ADI AMIN did to his fellows in Africa. All of the above have committed crimes worthy of a Geneva tribunal, and are either ignored or supported by the United States.

[The Dark]

Don't guess you have heard of hydrochloric acid torture device, have you? He takes a person, strips them down, and tosses them in a small room that has pipes that randomly drop droplets of HCl onto the victim, making it where you cannot stand in one place for more than a second. You are left in there until you finally cannot move anymore and are slowly killed by the acid.

Read up on some of the Kempeitai's methods. One was to shove a hose down your throat into your stomach, then turn the water on until you swelled. Then someone would jump on your stomach, rupturing internal organs. Most had ruptured stomachs, livers, or intestines. The American spy High Pockets had the first half of this torture done twice, but they never finished her off. It's a fairly nasty torture method, since the person can potentially survive a few days, slowly internally bleeding to death. Most were fortunate enough to die in just a few hours.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

do you listen to the rancid feces that is spouting from your mouth? look at the things this lunatic Hussein does! How can you in any way insinuate that Bush is what you say? Do you have any shred of fucking proof to back anything you say?

Aww, did someone get their feathers ruffled by little ole' me? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you were too busy cleaning the spittle off your screen to notice that I never said Hussein was a nice guy. As for Bush, perhaps you've forgotten where his family got its money and who funded his campaign? I'll give you a hint. It starts with o and rhymes with foil.

Did Bush try and assinate the Pope, or a sitting head of state? Did Bush launch a nerve gas attack against citizens of his own country? Does Bush stick his political opponets in industrial grinding equipment?

Nice plumage on that red herring of yours. Did I compare Bush to Hussein?

But you don't give a fuck. you know what, go to the peace march with the rest of the lemmings and try to solve the worlds problems with rhetorical slogans and bong hits, that's about all you are good for.

Ahh, I see. You're the one who's adopted the party line as your own personal truth, and I'm the lemming. That makes sense.

Basically what we have here is this:

1. We both agree that Hussein is a tyrant and an asshole.

2. You think he's a danger to the U.S. I don't, I won't go into the reasons why not as it would bloat this post and Darth Wong has already gone into that, saying it much more eloquently than me.

3. You think Iraq will be better off when we leave it. While I think Iraq has better chances than say, Afghanistan, because 1) we have business interests there and 2) the continued support of many of our allies may hinge on it, the U.S. has a long and bloody history of coupling promises to rebuild and democratize countries with its aggression, and then not following through, leaving the country in as bad or worse a state then when we went in, plus causing huge loss of life.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

If our goal was to clean up the mess we made, I'd be in the cheering section. But that's not the goal at all. The goal is to help Shrub's ass-buddies build a bigger empire atop a mound of bodies, many of those belonging to our sons and daughters.

Oh of course it must be about oil? Yeah, sure. How's the weather up your own ass?

Shitty

You know what this war comes down to? Saddam. He's a marginally sane dictator with WMD, a grudge against us, and no scruples at all. I don't think he's in bed with Bin Laden but he is a dangerous loon in a region where there's a surplus of dangerous loons.

Well, as Darth Wong has said, Saddam may very well have WMD and he certainly has a hell of a grudge, but he ain't stupid, and his only real priorities for the last 12 years have been 1) stay alive and 2) stay in power. Contrast him to Kim Jong'il, and you have to ask yourself why we aren't in North Korea. Iraq probably has WMD, but we know Korea has nukes. Saddam has made a lot of big-man talk, but he has neither the capability nor the incentive to be any significant threat, while Jong'il has threatened to nuke our fucking country.

You need to ask yourself 2 things: If the reason we're in Iraq is Saddam, then why aren't we in North Korea instead? And is it just a coincidence that the people who funded Bush's campaign stand to benefit the most from successful war with Iraq?

Not to mentions he's violated the UN resolution and the cease fire agreements for better than a decade and only namby pamby foriegn policy prevented us from doing any thing.

Israel's violated more UN resolutions than Iraq, but I don't hear you clamoring for war with them. Besides, that would make it a UN issue, not a US one.

If you're for the war (and you haven't bought the ridiculous Iraq = Al-Qaeda bullshit) then you consider our economic interests to be more important than the lives of our soldiers. And you call that supporting them?

Listen you hippy prick, those troopers (including some people I consider friends) are willing to give their lives to take out a dangerous madman. I believe in this for moral reasons and I would if it were a dirt poor country as well.

The great tragedy here is that these people (I have soldier friends too, btw) believe they are fighting for freedom and democracy but are in fact being used by this administrations for its own ends and for the sake of Realpolitik. That makes me sick.

[Coyote]

Lemme ask this: even if the war is about nothing but oil,oil,oil, who gives a fuck? The end result will still be the removal of a guy that is evil. And that guy would use oil money for what? Libraries and hospitals?

*Bzzzzt!*

Nosiree, he'll use that there oil money for bombs, gas, nukes, and more war! Yessir, he's attacked no less than three of his neighbors and been pretty damn cruel to his own ethnic minorities! He's got a pretty crappy track record, and I find it odd the so-called "liberals" who are concerned about the "welfare" of the Iraqi people are bending over backwards to apply spin control and excuses for a dictator who is a proven:

Racist
Genocide advocate
Nuclear Proliferator
Gasses minorities

Yessir, this is exactly the kind of guy that left-wing liberals stand for! This guy makes Pat Buchanan look like a big huggy teddy bear and YOU lefties, while you say you dislike him, sure are doing everything you can to keep him around!

You bet, think of all the millions he'll kill if left unmolested-- according to some records, he's only killed 1.2 million, maybe he needs another 11.8 or so to make people care! But wait-- we went into Yugoslavia and the lefties LOVED that war! Uh-huh, Milosivec was BAD, bad, bad, but he only killed a few thousand and when we went in, we had NO UN MANDATE! Oh, my goodness!

What was different... lessee...

The left is still pissed about the goddamn election. They hate Bush, that's it, and there is no other reason. So I don't care if Bush says that we should go to war for oil or whatever, the end result will be the same: no more Saddam.

[Joe]

Well, as Darth Wong has said, Saddam may very well have WMD and he certainly has a hell of a grudge, but he ain't stupid, and his only real priorities for the last 12 years have been 1) stay alive and 2) stay in power. Contrast him to Kim Jong'il, and you have to ask yourself why we aren't in North Korea. Iraq probably has WMD, but we know Korea has nukes. Saddam has made a lot of big-man talk, but he has neither the capability nor the incentive to be any significant threat, while Jong'il has threatened to nuke our fucking country.

Apples and oranges. Each threat requires a different kind of response. Furthermore, there is no need to deal with N. Korea unilaterally; it appears that the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula are going to be much more willing to assist us in dealing with the threat than the countries of the world have been in dealing with Iraq. We've tried to diplomatically deal with Iraq to Kingdom Come; for Korea, however, a diplomatic solution is still a possibility.

You need to ask yourself 2 things: If the reason we're in Iraq is Saddam, then why aren't we in North Korea instead? And is it just a coincidence that the people who funded Bush's campaign stand to benefit the most from successful war with Iraq?

For your first question, I can assure you that going into N. Korea with guns blazing is not going to be a wise move, and the Bush administration is not advocating it. As for your second question; it is still questionable how exactly Bush's oil buddies are going to benefit from the war; the Bush administration has repeatedly stated that the oil reserves will be transferred to the Iraqi government, not American energy corporations. Furthermore, how exactly are the lower oil prices that are going to inevitably result from the release of Iraqi oil to the global market going to help American oil companies who benefit from keeping the oil supply restricted and highly-priced?

[The Dark]

Furthermore, how exactly are the lower oil prices that are going to inevitably result from the release of Iraqi oil to the global market going to help American oil companies who benefit from keeping the oil supply restricted and highly-priced?

This I can answer. Ratchet affect. During the war, the oil companies will raise prices on refined oil, since large amounts are being consumed by the military, and the price for crude will go up as demand goes up (it's already happening now, and it's a simple examination of the supply/demand curve). Once the Iraqi oil is available and prices to the oil companies decrease, they'll maintain most if not all of the price increase, pocketing the difference as pure profit. They've done it before; they'll do it again.

[Joe]

Furthermore, how exactly are the lower oil prices that are going to inevitably result from the release of Iraqi oil to the global market going to help American oil companies who benefit from keeping the oil supply restricted and highly-priced?

This I can answer. Ratchet affect. During the war, the oil companies will raise prices on refined oil, since large amounts are being consumed by the military, and the price for crude will go up as demand goes up (it's already happening now, and it's a simple examination of the supply/demand curve). Once the Iraqi oil is available and prices to the oil companies decrease, they'll maintain most if not all of the price increase, pocketing the difference as pure profit. They've done it before; they'll do it again.

In the short run, perhaps; in the long run, however, the prices will drop.