The Continuing Saga Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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The Continuing Saga Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... te-120215/
After years of trying, the Conservatives have finally won approval from the House of Commons to scrap Canada's contentious long-gun registry.

Following a lengthy debate Wednesday, MPs voted 159-130 in favour of passing Bill C-19, which will end the registry and allow the government to destroy records pertaining to non-restricted firearms.

Two New Democrats, John Rafferty and Bruce Hyer, broke from their party and voted with the Tories. All other NDP, Liberal and Green MPs opposed the bill.

The bill still needs final approval from the Senate, but since the Conservatives hold a majority in the upper chamber as well, the law is sure to pass. The Liberals said they won't try to delay or filibuster the bill.

The Long Gun Registry Act, first introduced last October, eliminates the requirement for gun owners to register their long guns and other unrestricted or non-prohibited weapons. It also relaxes the rules for the transfer and sale of non-restricted guns.

Data in the Canadian Firearms Registry related to restricted and prohibited firearms such as handguns will be maintained, however.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been trying to kill the long-gun registry since he took office in 2006, but it wasn't until the Conservatives secured a majority government in last year's election that his goal became attainable.

While the government has long held that the registry is ineffective and a waste of taxpayers' money, its proponents argued it provides police with an important enforcement tool.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police said cops consult the registry more than 10,000 times a day, on average. If officers are responding to a domestic violence call, or some other kind of trouble, it's imperative that they know if there is a shotgun or rifle in a home, the association said.

The Coalition for Gun Control warned that getting rid of the registry will make it very difficult for police to trace firearms used in crimes.

But Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said the long-gun registry "does nothing to help put an end to gun crimes nor has it saved one Canadian life."

Instead, it criminalizes millions of "honest and law-abiding" hunters and farmers, said Toews, who began his campaign against the registry 15 years ago as the attorney general of Manitoba.

NDP interim leader Nycole Turmel told reporters earlier Wednesday that the "government is out of touch with Canadians."

"This is a sad day for victims of violence," she said.

Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae accused the Tories of "triumphalism" – they planned to celebrate Wednesday's vote at a reception on Parliament Hill -- and said they continue to distance themselves "from where most Canadians are on this question."

Bill C-19 drew praise from Canada's National Firearms Association, which issued a statement calling the vote "a truly historic beginning for Canada."

"We are beginning to see the government honour its commitments to repeal bad firearms laws," association president Sheldon Clare said in a news release.

Clare went further, calling on the government to scrap the current gun licensing requirements in favour of "a simpler program in which prospective firearm purchasers were simply checked for a record of violence, or behaviour that would preclude legal access to firearms."

Among the provinces, Quebec has been the most vocal opponent of scrapping the long-gun registry.

The province has said it's ready to go to court to block the federal government from destroying registry records once the legislation becomes law.

The leader of the separatist Parti Quebecois, Pauline Marois, began question period in the national assembly by reading off the names of the 14 women gunned down at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique on Dec. 6, 1989. The long-gun registry was created by Jean Chretien's Liberal government in response to the tragedy.

"After creating an online countdown clock announcing the end of the registry, we hear Conservative MPs will celebrate their victory tonight like it was a hockey match," said Marois. "It's shameful, disgusting and revolting."

In an interview from Ottawa Wednesday, Liberal Senate Leader James Cowan reiterated his party's line that scrapping the registry is "nonsensical."

"The legislation which they're bringing in flies in the face of the facts, and I think it's wrong-headed, it's expensive and more importantly it doesn't achieve what it purports to do," Cowan told CTV News Channel.

"We've been opposed to this from the beginning and we'll continue our opposition."

Cowan expects the bill to makes its way to the committee on legal and constitutional affairs by March.

The federal government said provinces can start their own gun registries if they want, but won't be getting any funding from Ottawa.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... z1nuHDlmLj
So after years of trying, the most visible but probably the least onerous of the firearms acts provisions will soon be gone. What does this mean?

All non-restricted firearms will no longer be required to be registered to the government and the current records will be destroyed. Everything else will pretty much stay the same, you'll still need a PAL to purchase or transfer and nothing changes re; prohibited or restricted.

Personally I anticipate alot of bull fuckery from the police, mostly because their pretty clueless as it is regarding classifications, even with the little certificate you have to produce but it'll sort out over time. Going to keep mine, just in case.
Last edited by SCRawl on 2012-03-03 06:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed spelling of thread title - SCRawl
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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What are their arguments for scrapping this gun registration?
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Depends who you ask. If you ask the CPC it's that their keeping an election promise. If you ask the average gun owner its because it was a massive boondoggle, 2 billion dollars in fact. And apparently it's been absolutely useless in solving any crimes, as most gun crime is committed using unregistered and illegal handguns. Usually smuggled over the border.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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ooops, as a side note all handguns are class as either "restricted" or "prohibited"

So this doesn't affect those.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Chirios wrote:What are their arguments for scrapping this gun registration?
"the big bad guberment might someday use it to take our guns"

So they decided that firearm ownership is more important than the functioning of government and decided to pre-emptively obstruct the carrying out of legislation that doesn't even exist.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Actually the Firearms Act does have a provision to confiscate all guns within 30 days, obviously it's never been enacted.

Owners are pretty paranoid because there has been a consistent push for tighter regulation by groups like the Coalition for Gun Control and since this legislation came up they've been pushing to have things like the Mini 14 and that Steyr .50cal reclassified. So even though there hasn't been much on the confiscation front, AP80 and the Type 97 are all that comes to mind, the thought is always present.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Aaron MkII wrote:Actually the Firearms Act does have a provision to confiscate all guns within 30 days, obviously it's never been enacted.

Owners are pretty paranoid because there has been a consistent push for tighter regulation by groups like the Coalition for Gun Control and since this legislation came up they've been pushing to have things like the Mini 14 and that Steyr .50cal reclassified. So even though there hasn't been much on the confiscation front, AP80 and the Type 97 are all that comes to mind, the thought is always present.

Do you know offhand which gun it was they reclassified and confiscated I believe it was days after this scrapping was announced?
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

Post by Aaron MkII »

I think it was the AP80, a .22lr semi-auto that had been in Canada almost 30 years but was "improperly classified" because the RCMP lab was apparently to clueless to realize it was the exact same as another gun with a different name, that was already prohib.

Yup, Armi Jager Ap80

Confiscated without compensation, thats what pisses me right off.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Aaron MkII wrote:Actually the Firearms Act does have a provision to confiscate all guns within 30 days, obviously it's never been enacted.
Then that's what they should be pushing against if they're so intent on keeping their weapons.

If it's been legitimately that decided that certain things should be confiscated then it will be confiscated and trying to oppose it by making it harder to carry out is nearly as bad as admitting that you're going to evade the ban if/when it comes.
Owners are pretty paranoid because there has been a consistent push for tighter regulation by groups like the Coalition for Gun Control and since this legislation came up they've been pushing to have things like the Mini 14 and that Steyr .50cal reclassified. So even though there hasn't been much on the confiscation front, AP80 and the Type 97 are all that comes to mind, the thought is always present.
I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of silly things about the way our bans and weapon controls are done here (really, guys, a knife is a knife, and banning things by name is just dumb), but the important word in that first sentence is 'paranoid'.

And for the record, I'm against a ban.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

Post by MKSheppard »

Ryan Thunder wrote:"the big bad guberment might someday use it to take our guns"

So they decided that firearm ownership is more important than the functioning of government and decided to pre-emptively obstruct the carrying out of legislation that doesn't even exist.
You know, if you weren't so stupid; you would have realized that this is what exactly happened in New York City.

NYC enacted a long gun registration law in 1967; and despite them swearing up and down left and right that it would never be used for confiscation, that's exactly what happened in 1991 when a law was passed banning certain guns -- the 1967 registration law was used to generate a list of people who owned weapons which fell under the new 1991 law due to the need to register said guns under the 1967 law.

EDIT: And like Aaron Mk II pointed out; it's how Canada confiscated the Ap80/AP80s out there in Canadian private hands, when they belatedly realized it was evil.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Ryan Thunder wrote: Then that's what they should be pushing against if they're so intent on keeping their weapons.

If it's been legitimately that decided that certain things should be confiscated then it will be confiscated and trying to oppose it by making it harder to carry out is nearly as bad as admitting that you're going to evade the ban if/when it comes.
Oh I agree, and I've informed my MP of my views. As I said above the LGR is the least onerous of the legislation but I think it's been targeted because it's the easiest to get rid of. Automatic granting of warrants because your a licensed owner and criminal penalties for forgetting to renew your license are far, far worse.
I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of silly things about the way our bans and weapon controls are done here (really, guys, a knife is a knife, and banning things by name is just dumb), but the important word in that first sentence is 'paranoid'.

And for the record, I'm against a ban.
Again I agree, I'm certainly suspicious but we've been effectively stagnant on that front for decades, so it doesn't cross over to full blown paranoia for me.
You know, if you weren't so stupid; you would have realized that this is what exactly happened in New York City.

NYC enacted a long gun registration law in 1967; and despite them swearing up and down left and right that it would never be used for confiscation, that's exactly what happened in 1991 when a law was passed banning certain guns -- the 1967 registration law was used to generate a list of people who owned weapons which fell under the new 1991 law due to the need to register said guns under the 1967 law.
It doesn't work like that here. In order for something to be confiscated then it would have to be classed "prohibited" and there are certain standards for it, set in law and once it's classed it's hard to reclass unless you find a loophole like the AP80 which was improperly classed because the lab was dumb.

The only way to broadly confiscate things here to is to have the Public Safety Minister confiscate everything. Something which simply wouldn't be tolerated, we're barely at 50% compliance as it is.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

Post by Aaron MkII »

In addition, firearms and the laws surrounding them are purely the responsibility of the federal government. Our Provinces have no power to make them a criminal matter.

So Shep, I'd appreciate you keeping out of this unless you learn how our laws work.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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MKSheppard wrote:You know, if you weren't so stupid; you would have realized that this is what exactly happened in New York City.
Amusingly, I'm well aware of this, and it doesn't change a goddamned thing. Anywhere.

The whole notion of creating a registry for anything on the condition that it won't be used for confiscation strikes me as fucking retarded anyway.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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MKSheppard wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:"the big bad guberment might someday use it to take our guns"

So they decided that firearm ownership is more important than the functioning of government and decided to pre-emptively obstruct the carrying out of legislation that doesn't even exist.
You know, if you weren't so stupid; you would have realized that this is what exactly happened in New York City.

NYC enacted a long gun registration law in 1967; and despite them swearing up and down left and right that it would never be used for confiscation, that's exactly what happened in 1991 when a law was passed banning certain guns -- the 1967 registration law was used to generate a list of people who owned weapons which fell under the new 1991 law due to the need to register said guns under the 1967 law.

EDIT: And like Aaron Mk II pointed out; it's how Canada confiscated the Ap80/AP80s out there in Canadian private hands, when they belatedly realized it was evil.
Ryan already knows this. In the last Gun Control thread this very bit of history was brought up as a reminder as to why gun owners will never trust gun control again. The well was deliberately poisoned. And Ryan thinks that was a good thing. He admitted that he thought lying to get the support of gun owners to trick them into eventual disarmament was justified.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:You know, if you weren't so stupid; you would have realized that this is what exactly happened in New York City.
Amusingly, I'm well aware of this, and it doesn't change a goddamned thing. Anywhere.

The whole notion of creating a registry for anything on the condition that it won't be used for confiscation strikes me as fucking retarded anyway.
And this is why gun owners will never support a registry.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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As Alyeska says, the well has been thoroughly poisoned.

Here we've been painted at various times as mass murders, perpetrators of domestic violence and some other bizarre things. People have been claiming that once the LGR goes that we will willingly sell our guns to criminals. So yeah, there's no love between the pro crowd and owners.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Alyeska wrote:And this is why gun owners will never support a registry.
You guys are hilarious. Do you also oppose license plates on cars on the grounds that they might be used to confiscate vehicles?
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Alyeska wrote:And this is why gun owners will never support a registry.
You guys are hilarious. Do you also oppose license plates on cars on the grounds that they might be used to confiscate vehicles?
Hilarious? A gun law was proposed with the promise it would never be used towards confiscation. Why was this promised? Because the people who wanted to pass the law did not have sufficient votes to get through. So they needed support from the gun owners.

And then after the law is passed, the list is used in direct opposition to what was promised and is used to confiscate weapons from the very people they relied on to get the law passed.

Are you a fucking retard or something? Asking someone for assistance and then spitting in their face. And then you mock them for being angry. That is exactly what you are advocating.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Dude, don't go there. The MTO doesn't have the power to seize your car if your license expires, search your home based simply on the fact that you own a car, nor do you have to provide references, go through a background check and obtain souses consent to own a car.

In principle I support certain measure of "gun control" but comparing it to cars is stupid.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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But Aaron! There might one day be new legislation that makes that the case! :lol:

Look, we all know its ridiculous. If you're opposed to a ban, oppose whatever bans are proposed. Opposing a registry on the grounds that it makes a ban easier to implement is silly.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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so, what's the point of a registry? No registry has solved a significant number of crimes. Certainly not compared to just using the money to hire more officers would have.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Beowulf wrote:so, what's the point of a registry? No registry has solved a significant number of crimes. Certainly not compared to just using the money to hire more officers would have.
Canada has a history of kneejerk laws in regards to firearms, the present system could be more accurately called "The Marc Lepine Memorial" as it came about from his massacre of a number of woman, he was a legal owner, so I suppose watching us makes some kind of twisted sense.

Ontario requires stores to record ammunition sales because some guy shot a cop in 94.

The original handgun registry is said to be a result of the government being scared of WWI vets who were unionizing in the 30's.

Of course if you want to confiscate guns, a registry makes it easier to track who has what. Otherwise you have to go to each licensed owner and start rooting around.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Beowulf wrote:so, what's the point of a registry? No registry has solved a significant number of crimes. Certainly not compared to just using the money to hire more officers would have.
Sounds like it did its job just fine from the get go, if you think about it.
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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How do you figure?
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Re: The Contuinng Sag Of Canuckistani Gun Control Part 2

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Beowulf wrote:so, what's the point of a registry? No registry has solved a significant number of crimes. Certainly not compared to just using the money to hire more officers would have.
Sounds like it did its job just fine from the get go, if you think about it.
Only if you think its job is to waste an amount of money best described using the term "billions". I'm sure there was a better use for the money than to fail to solve crimes.
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