MANPAD Systems Stationed On Apartment Roofs For Olympics

[Zaune]

BBC News via Charlie Stross.

The Ministry of Defence is considering placing surface-to-air missiles on residential flats during the Olympics.

An east London estate, where 700 people live, has received leaflets saying a "Higher Velocity Missile system" could be placed on a water tower.

A spokesman said the MoD had not yet decided whether to deploy ground based air defence systems during the event.

But estate resident Brian Whelan said firing the missiles "would shower debris across the east end of London".

The journalist said: "At first I thought it was a hoax. I can't see what purpose high-velocity missiles could serve over a crowded area like Tower Hamlets.

"They say they'll only use them as a last resort, but... you'd shower debris across the east end of London by firing these missiles."

Mr Whelan, who claims to have seen soldiers carrying a crate into the building, said his property management company put up posters and gave out the leaflets on Saturday.

He continued: "They are going to have a test run next week, putting high velocity missiles on the roof just above our apartment and on the back of it they're stationing police and military in the tower of the building for two months.

"It [the leaflet] says there will be 10 officers plus police present 24/7."

Resident Brian Whelan: "It creates a lot of fear. It's a massive inconvenience"

Rushana Ali, MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, said: "It looks like it's been imposed without proper consultation.

"I will be asking the government to explain why. The MoD does need to look at this again."

The leaflet states that members of the Armed Forces will be at the location for a military exercise between 2 and 7 May.

It goes on to say there will be a "major national exercise" from 2 to 10 May to test the Armed Forces' capabilities for providing security during the Olympics.

The document added that if the government decides to use the missiles during the Games, the soldiers could be "operationally deployed for a period of up to two months this summer".

The weapon being considered is a High Velocity Missile (HVM) system, which would be based on the Lexington Building Water Tower. The tower contains residential flats.

The MoD says in the leaflet that the missiles will not pose a hazard to residents and "will only be authorised for active use following specific orders from the highest levels of government in response to a confirmed and extreme security threat".

The document states: "Having a 24/7 Armed Forces and police presence will improve your local security and will not make you a target for terrorists.

"The location has been chosen as it is situated close to the Olympic Park and offers an excellent view of the surrounding area and the entire sky above the Olympic Park.

"The top of the tower also offers a flat, uncluttered and safe area from which to operate."

The Army website says the HVM system is "designed to counter threats from very high performance, low-flying aircraft".

It says the missile travels at more than three times the speed of sound, using "a system of three dart-like projectiles to allow multiple hits on the target".

The missiles can be fired from the shoulder, from a lightweight multiple launcher or from armoured vehicles.

A MoD spokesman said: "As announced before Christmas, ground based air defence systems could be deployed as part of a multi-layered air security plan for the Olympics, including fast jets and helicopters, which will protect the skies over London during the Games.

"Based on military advice we have identified a number of sites and, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police, are talking to local authorities and relevant landowners to help minimise the impact of any temporary deployments.

"As part of our ongoing planning, we can confirm site evaluations have taken place."

The MoD has previously said it was considering plans to install surface-to-air missiles in south-east London at Blackheath and Shooters Hill during the Olympics.

So exactly what problem, pray tell, is this supposed to solve? I mean, I can envision a terrorist organisation using an aircraft in preference to a more conventional vehicle-based IED; if nothing else, the traffic congestion is going to be beyond ridiculous. But what good is shooting the thing down with a Starstreak when it's already overflying the most densely populated urban area in the entire country? If it's got that far then you might just as well evacuate whatever venue it's aiming for and let it kamikaze into it, because it's not as if we have a coherent plan for actually using any of them afterwards.

[mr friendly guy]

I expect some shoddy Australian journalists to decry about fake terrorists. After all they were talking about these fake terrorists when the Chinese deployed missiles as well.

[Darth Tanner]

Deterrent for actually trying in the first place?

Otherwise it would be silly to be so open about deploying them. If they were actually installing them just so they can shoot someone down making their attack run on the Olympic exhaust port then it would have been better to simply not tell anyone about them.

Also its probably a lot better to kill a few dozen to hundred people with falling burning debris than allow tens of thousands to die if a stadium took a direct hit when its full to the brim. I'd imagine evacuating those things would be a nightmare.

[weemadando]

Quite a few people have pointed out that the terrorists would be better off "spoofing" an attack in order to get the missiles fired in the direction of a heavily trafficked area like a major rail station and rely on the missile debris to cause some amount damage.

Make the government look inept and idiotic while they kill the infidels themselves.

Which is why these missiles are far more likely to just sit there and have a few idiot politicians pose with them than they are ever likely to be fired.

[Lonestar]

They also don't work if it's cloudy out.

[MrDakka]

Also its probably a lot better to kill a few dozen to hundred people with falling burning debris than allow tens of thousands to die if a stadium took a direct hit when its full to the brim. I'd imagine evacuating those things would be a nightmare.

Most people would agree with you, but my concern is that those MANPADS won't actually do much against an airliner on a collision course with the stadium.

I mean, the missiles won't actually deflect the majority of the wreckage of the plane right? IIRC the Starstreak is a SACLOS missile that releases three submunitions which do the actual damage. All its going to do is perforate the fuselage and maybe break it up into chunks which could still hit the stadium. Maybe if its hit early enough, the pieces will miss? All this seems iffy and stationing MANPADS would just exacerbate a deadly situation into something worse.

[MrDakka]

They also don't work if it's cloudy out.

They're laser beam riders right?

[Zaune]

Most people would agree with you, but my concern is that those MANPADS won't actually do much against an airliner on a collision course with the stadium.

I mean, the missiles won't actually deflect the majority of the wreckage of the plane right? IIRC the Starstreak is a SACLOS missile that releases three submunitions which do the actual damage. All its going to do is perforate the fuselage and maybe break it up into chunks which could still hit the stadium. Maybe if its hit early enough, the pieces will miss? All this seems iffy and stationing MANPADS would just exacerbate a deadly situation into something worse.

I doubt it's airliners they have in mind, actually. You could cram a pretty impressive quantity of explosives into a six-seater utility aircraft, for example, if you had a good enough line of credit to buy one and could pass whatever background checks are needed these days.

That said, I personally would be more worried about terrorists trying to steal one of the launchers; the likes of the Continuity IRA would probably give one testicle apiece to get their hands on a decent MANPAD system, and I dare say a couple of governments would pay a big chunk of change for the chance to reverse-engineer it.

[Alkaloid]

It's not that strange, for the Sydney Olympics I know they had at least 3 F-18's circling the city centrwe kitted out for air to air and air to ground 24 hours a day. I imagine there will be a similar precaution in London, these are just a little more visible.

If it's got that far then you might just as well evacuate whatever venue it's aiming for and let it kamikaze into it, because it's not as if we have a coherent plan for actually using any of them afterwards.

By the time a plan is actually on approach to a stadium you will be lucky to get a few hundred people out, if you are going to shoot it down over a city you will still probably have a lot of people die, but no where near the same amount.

[Dartzap]

It's not that strange, for the Sydney Olympics I know they had at least 3 F-18's circling the city centrwe kitted out for air to air and air to ground 24 hours a day. I imagine there will be a similar precaution in London, these are just a little more visible.

Yep, squadron of Typhoons will be around, plus HMS Ocean will be there with its compliment of Apaches.

[Aaron MkII]

They also don't work if it's cloudy out.

They're laser beam riders right?

Yeah.

We dug the ADATS out of storage for Vancouver and had them sitting around Whistler.

[Patroklos]

This type of thing was at Athens too, there was a Aegis cruiser off the coast providing SAM support amongst other things.

[Aaron MkII]

Going to be pretty standard for a while I guess, the Olympics are a pretty big money hole but the outrage over a successful attack would be massive.

[Irbis]

Yeah, having another Munich-like attack on the record looks far worse than spending a bit of extra money so politicians nowadays will always pick the second option.

[Lonestar]

This type of thing was at Athens too, there was a Aegis cruiser off the coast providing SAM support amongst other things.

Well, it's kinda like how we have that NAAMS battery in the woods at Andrews and whenever there's some king of major event in DC another one is set up at Bolling in the District(but away from prying eyes). A return 24/7 ADA around the Capital, at least.

EDIT: NASAMS dammit.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I imagine they'd redirect flight paths to keep large aircraft from flying too near any of the stadiums, assuming airliners are allowed to normally. If the missiles are part of a tiered system, then they'll be the last line of defense if they're close to the stadium.

According to the maps, London City airport is only a few miles from the Olympic Village. Given its proximity you can imagine security is going to be stepped up there, assuming it hasn't been done already.

[Sea Skimmer]

Rapier lifted by helicopter onto roof tops would be a lot better; but anything is better then nothing for a last ditch defense which is what this would be. Starstreak will easily blow apart light aircraft and giant RC models which are much more likely threats compared to a large airliner. China had HQ-7 launchers parked around the games. Also you can bet most if not all recent games have had people stationed around with laser blinders to spoil the aim of a terrorist plane.

[Zaune]

Rapier lifted by helicopter onto roof tops would be a lot better; but anything is better then nothing for a last ditch defense which is what this would be. Starstreak will easily blow apart light aircraft and giant RC models which are much more likely threats compared to a large airliner. China had HQ-7 launchers parked around the games. Also you can bet most if not all recent games have had people stationed around with laser blinders to spoil the aim of a terrorist plane.

Deploying Rapier would create more problems than it solved. Not only would the Army have to find buildings with clear lines of fire, they'd have to have roofs structurally capable of taking the launcher's weight and the backblast, and probably an elevator big enough to accomodate the missiles themselves unless they want to have a couple of gunners manhandle them up multiple flights of stairs. They'd also probably need a road crane for the job, because I'm fairly certain the RAF is leery of even overflying a built-up area with a slung load.

[Uraniun235]

But what good is shooting the thing down with a Starstreak when it's already overflying the most densely populated urban area in the entire country? If it's got that far then you might just as well evacuate whatever venue it's aiming for and let it kamikaze into it, because it's not as if we have a coherent plan for actually using any of them afterwards.

Evacuating thousands (tens of thousands?) of people from a venue seems like it would take too long.

[Beowulf]

They also don't work if it's cloudy out.

They're laser beam riders right?

Yes. On the other hand, the target aircraft will likely also have to be under the cloud deck to be able to visually acquire the target in order to actually hit it. The biggest problem I can see is the potential for the 3 subdarts to miss a sufficiently small target, thus resulting in the subdarts ramming into downrange structures before exploding. Alternately, the Ts having thought about the potential, and built a sufficiently redundant or robust aircraft to survive the detonation.

[Sea Skimmer]

Deploying Rapier would create more problems than it solved. Not only would the Army have to find buildings with clear lines of fire, they'd have to have roofs structurally capable of taking the launcher's weight and the backblast, and probably an elevator big enough to accomodate the missiles themselves unless they want to have a couple of gunners manhandle them up multiple flights of stairs. They'd also probably need a road crane for the job, because I'm fairly certain the RAF is leery of even overflying a built-up area with a slung load.

Those are trivial problems. Weight for example, which is pretty damn low anyway, can be solved by building a platform to spread the load. Blast is solved with some heavy fabric bolted down. Cranes are a joke, with a billion pound security budget you think they can't rent one for a day? The line of fire issue is far less serious with Rapier than Starstreak because the computer can be programmed not to fire in dangerous arcs. Starstreak is 100% human factors for firing. Meanwhile Rapier would solve the all weather issue, it cannot be accidentally fired at the ground, it cannot be stolen by terrorists, it can destroy larger aircraft and it has a similar range to Starstreak so it is not creating any additional hazard in that regard . Nor is it so much larger that the falling debris hazard is really going to change much when most debris will be from the target. I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that Rapier has in fact been deployed, just not in a location which attracted instant media attention due to such a direct public notification. Certainly MANPADS are not being deployed at just this one tower.

Evacuating thousands (tens of thousands?) of people from a venue seems like it would take too long.

It would take far too long and it would run a very high chance of causing a mass panic which turns into dozens or even hundreds or thousands of people being killed in a crush. It also won't exactly help a lot to fill the streets with wall to wall people instead of having them packed in a stadium.

[Winston Blake]

Maybe the ability to fire at the ground is a feature rather than a bug. The Starstreak is often claimed to be effective against light armour. Perhaps part of their strategy involves Starstreak units being able to stop dirty terrist technicals or killdozers or evil nondescript white vans. You can't do that with a Stinger-type missile, AFAIK. In fact, if Rapier has been deployed secretly, maybe anti-ground work is the super-secret primary purpose of the Starstreaks.

What you really want is something like an S-300 system. You see, all you have to do is attach the corners of a giant net to each missile. Then you can cancel the incoming plane's momentum and fly it into the Thames or something. Problem solved.

[Vejut]

Rapier is also being deployed. Though the actual topic of that article, that it won't work in bad weather, seems a bit...odd for a full up emplaced weapon.

[JointStrikeFighter]

The article is blatantly wrong anyway as rapier most certainly DOES work in bad weather when employed with the Blindfire radar unit (which it pretty much always is)

Winston rapier can shoot at ground targets too.

[Lonestar]

We're talking about Starstreak. "The actual topic of the OP"