Obama the pioneer

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Obama the pioneer

Post by Thanas »

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Earlier this week, The New Yorker‘s Steve Coll wrote an excellent column on President Obama’s kill list and assassination powers. Regarding the lawsuit brought by the ACLU and CCR on behalf of three American victims of Obama’s assassinations — a legal challenge which CBS News‘ Andrew Cohen called ”the most important lawsuit filed so far this year” and “the most important lawsuit filed in the war on terror since President Barack Obama took office” – Coll argued that it “is to the due-process clause what the proposed march of neo-Nazis through a community that included many Holocaust survivors in Skokie, Illinois, was to the First Amendment”: “an instance where the most onerous facts imaginable should lead to the durable affirmation of constitutional principle, as Skokie did.”

Coll also pointed to “evidence [] suggesting that the Obama Administration leans toward killing terrorism suspects because it does not believe it has a politically attractive way to put them on trial,” which tracks Noam Chomsky’s pithy observation earlier this year: “If the Bush administration didn’t like somebody, they’d kidnap them and send them to torture chambers. If the Obama administration decides they don’t like somebody, they murder them.” Coll also dissects the standard excuses offered by Obama defenders for the seizure of this power, including the moral and factual defects of the excuse that it’s acceptable to kill an accused Terrorist suspect if it’s difficult to apprehend and try him (in the Awlaki case, the Obama administration never even charged or indicted him before executing him).

But what really stood out was Coll’s recounting of the events leading up to Awlaki’s assassination:

President Barack Obama had personally authorized the killing. “I want Awlaki,” he is said to have told his advisers at one point. “Don’t let up on him.” The President’s bracing words about a fellow American are reported in “Kill or Capture,” a recent and important book on the Obama Administration’s detention and targeted-killing programs, by Daniel Klaidman, a former deputy editor of Newsweek.

With those words attributed to Obama, Klaidman has reported what would appear to be the first instance in American history of a sitting President speaking of his intent to kill a particular U.S. citizen without that citizen having been charged formally with a crime or convicted at trial.

Please re-read that bolded part to appreciate the magnitude of Obama’s trail blazing. When The New York Times, back in April, 2010, first confirmed the inclusion of an American citizen on Obama’s hit list, it, too, noted: “It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing, officials said.” But it was only recently known what a personal role Obama himself played in ordering the historically unprecedented hit. As a result, writes Coll, “President Obama and his advisers have opened the door to violent action against American citizens by future Presidents when the facts may be much less compelling.” In fairness to Obama, he did campaign on a promise of change, and vesting the President with the power to order the execution of citizens in secret and with no oversight certainly qualifies as that.

Another part of Coll’s article relates to the big, exciting Election Year controversy of the moment: the perfectly legitimate demand that Mitt Romney release more of his tax returns. Here we have the political campaign of the same President who, in another moment of trailblazing, has waged an unprecedented war on whistleblowers, and whose top aides secretly met at coffee houses with industry lobbyists to draft bills so as to evade disclosure and record preservation requirements, marching, apparently with a straight face, behind the banner of transparency to demand disclosure of his opponent’s tax returns.

Specifically with regard to Obama’s assassinations, Coll notes the extreme secrecy behind which they are ordered: “None of Obama’s legal advisers has testified similarly about what secret system and classified legal memos may exist for judging, in the case of an American citizen targeted overseas, whether and why a capture attempt may be feasible.” Indeed, when Awlaki’s father sued in advance to try to prevent the U.S. Government from killing his American son without due process, the Obama DOJ told a federal court that Obama’s assassination program was too secret even to permit judicial adjudiciation of its legality.

So to summarize the Obama campaign’s apparent argument: it’s absolutely vital that we know all about the GOP nominee’s tax shelters and financial transactions over the last decade (and indeed, we should know about that), but we need not bother ourselves with how the Democratic nominee is deciding which Americans should die, his claimed legal authority for ordering those hits, the alleged evidence for believing the target deserves to be executed, or the criteria used to target them. So low are one’s expectations for an American Election Year that there are very few spectacles so absurd as to be painful to behold, but the Obama campaign’s waving of the transparency flag definitely qualifies.


* * * * *

The new Egyptian government has demanded the immediate release of the one Egyptian citizen still detained at Guantanamo: the 54-year-old Tariq Mahmoud Ahmed, who has been imprisoned in the camp since late 2001. The spokesman for the Egyptian Foreign Ministry said this when explaining the demand: “He was not charged with any crime until now. He is an Egyptian citizen detained in an illegal manner.” Indeed, in the 11 years he has been held, Ahmed was charged with a crime only once, back in 2008, but those charges were dropped before he could contest them and he was never re-charged. So now we have Egypt denouncing the illegal detention practices of the U.S., and it’s virtually impossible to contest the validity of those objections. Anyone who believes President Obama bears no responsibility for this ongoing scheme of due-process-free indefinite detention, on the ground that Congress prevented him from closing Guantanamo, should review the actual facts.



UPDATE: In Esquire today, Tom Junod looks at the current fixation in Washington over bolstering the secrecy regime and further punishing leaks, and persuasively argues that the problem in the U.S. is excessive secrecy, not excessive disclosures. He describes what he encountered in the course of writing his recent influential article on Obama’s assassinations, “The Lethal Presidency of Barack Obama”:

I answer from my own experience: For four months, I tried to find out what happened to Abdulrahman al-Awlaki. I never did. Nobody has. There have been no “leaks” about him. By the terms of the current debate, however, the silence regarding the death by drone of a 16-year-old American is what should be applauded. Indeed, by the terms of the current debate, any official who steps forward and finally reveals how Abdulrahman al-Awlaki died would be liable to criminal prosecution, not to mention the shrill castigation of the likes of Mitt Romney and John McCain.

But if as a journalist I would call him a source instead of a leaker, it’s as an American I would call him a hero instead of a criminal.

For all the current hysteria about massive leaking, the reality is that the U.S. Government operates behind a more impenetrable wall of secrecy than ever before — exercising the most extremist and threatening powers a government can wield, without a shred of transparency — led by a President whose campaign argues that the Republic will be jeopardized if Mitt Romney isn’t more transparent about his personal tax shelters.
Most of the 168 detainees at Guantanamo have been imprisoned by the U.S. Government for close to a decade without charges and with no end in sight to their captivity. Some now die at Guantanamo, thousands of miles away from their homes and families, without ever having had the chance to contest accusations of guilt. During the Bush years, the plight of these detainees was a major source of political controversy, but under Obama, it is now almost entirely forgotten. On those rare occasions when it is raised, Obama defenders invoke a blatant myth to shield the President from blame: he wanted and tried so very hard to end all of this, but Congress would not let him. Especially now that we’re in an Election Year, and in light of very recent developments, it’s long overdue to document clearly how misleading that excuse is.

Last week, the Obama administration imposed new arbitrary rules for Guantanamo detainees who have lost their first habeas corpus challenge. Those new rules eliminate the right of lawyers to visit their clients at the detention facility; the old rules establishing that right were in place since 2004, and were bolstered by the Supreme Court’s 2008 Boumediene ruling that detainees were entitled to a “meaningful” opportunity to contest the legality of their detention. The DOJ recently informed a lawyer for a Yemeni detainee, Yasein Khasem Mohammad Esmail, that he would be barred from visiting his client unless he agreed to a new regime of restrictive rules, including acknowledging that such visits are within the sole discretion of the camp’s military commander. Moreover, as SCOTUSblog’s Lyle Denniston explains:

Besides putting control over legal contacts entirely under a military commander’s control, the “memorandum of understanding” does not allow attorneys to share with other detainee lawyers what they learn, and does not appear to allow them to use any such information to help prepare their own client for a system of periodic review at Guantanamo of whether continued detention is justified, and may even forbid the use of such information to help prepare a defense to formal terrorism criminal charges against their client.

The New York Times Editorial Page today denounced these new rules as “spiteful,” cited it as “the Obama administration’s latest overuse of executive authority,” and said “the administration looks as if it is imperiously punishing detainees for their temerity in bringing legal challenges to their detention and losing.” Detainee lawyers are refusing to submit to these new rules and are asking a federal court to rule that they violate the detainees’ right to legal counsel.

But every time the issue of ongoing injustices at Guantanamo is raised, one hears the same apologia from the President’s defenders: the President wanted and tried to end all of this, but Congress — including even liberals such as Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders — overwhelming voted to deny him the funds to close Guantanamo. While those claims, standing alone, are true, they omit crucial facts and thus paint a wildly misleading picture about what Obama actually did and did not seek to do.

What made Guantanamo controversial was not its physical location: that it was located in the Caribbean Sea rather than on American soil (that’s especially true since the Supreme Court ruled in 2004 that U.S. courts have jurisdiction over the camp). What made Guantanamo such a travesty — and what still makes it such — is that it is a system of indefinite detention whereby human beings are put in cages for years and years without ever being charged with a crime. President Obama’s so-called “plan to close Guantanamo” — even if it had been approved in full by Congress — did not seek to end that core injustice. It sought to do the opposite: Obama’s plan would have continued the system of indefinite detention, but simply re-located it from Guantanamo Bay onto American soil.

Long before, and fully independent of, anything Congress did, President Obama made clear that he was going to preserve the indefinite detention system at Guantanamo even once he closed the camp. President Obama fully embraced indefinite detention — the defining injustice of Guantanamo — as his own policy.

In February, 2009, the Obama DOJ told an appellate court it was embracing the Bush DOJ’s theory that Bagram detainees have no legal rights whatsoever, an announcement that shocked the judges on the panel hearing the case. In May, 2009, President Obama delivered a speech at the National Archives — in front of the U.S. Constitution — and, as his plan for closing Guantanamo, proposed a system of preventative “prolonged detention” without trial inside the U.S.; The New York Times – in an article headlined “President’s Detention Plan Tests American Legal Tradition” – said Obama’s plan “would be a departure from the way this country sees itself, as a place where people in the grip of the government either face criminal charges or walk free.” In January, 2010, the Obama administration announced it would continue to imprison several dozen Guantanamo detainees without any charges or trials of any kind, including even a military commission, on the ground that they were “too difficult to prosecute but too dangerous to release.” That was all Obama’s doing, completely independent of anything Congress did.

When the President finally unveiled his plan for “closing Guantanamo,” it became clear that it wasn’t a plan to “close” the camp as much as it was a plan simply to re-locate it — import it — onto American soil, at a newly purchased federal prison in Thompson, Illinois. William Lynn, Obama’s Deputy Defense Secretary, sent a letter to inquiring Senators that expressly stated that the Obama administration intended to continue indefinitely to imprison some of the detainees with no charges of any kind. The plan was classic Obama: a pretty, feel-good, empty symbolic gesture (get rid of the symbolic face of Bush War on Terror excesses) while preserving the core abuses (the powers of indefinite detention ), even strengthening and expanding those abuses by bringing them into the U.S.

Recall that the ACLU immediately condemned what it called the President’s plan to create “GITMO North.” About the President’s so-called “plan to close Guantanamo,” Executive Director Anthony Romero said:

The creation of a “Gitmo North” in Illinois is hardly a meaningful step forward. Shutting down Guantánamo will be nothing more than a symbolic gesture if we continue its lawless policies onshore.

Alarmingly, all indications are that the administration plans to continue its predecessor’s policy of indefinite detention without charge or trial for some detainees, with only a change of location. Such a policy is completely at odds with our democratic commitment to due process and human rights whether it’s occurring in Cuba or in Illinois.

In fact, while the Obama administration inherited the Guantánamo debacle, this current move is its own affirmative adoption of those policies. It is unimaginable that the Obama administration is using the same justification as the Bush administration used to undercut centuries of legal jurisprudence and the principle of innocent until proven guilty and the right to confront one’s accusers. . . . .The Obama administration’s announcement today contradicts everything the president has said about the need for America to return to leading with its values.

In fact, Obama’s “close GITMO” plan — if it had been adopted by Congress — would have done something worse than merely continue the camp’s defining injustice of indefinite detention. It would likely have expanded those powers by importing them into the U.S. The day after President Obama’s speech proposing a system of “prolonged detention” on U.S. soil, the ACLU’s Ben Wizner told me in an interview:

It may to serve to enshrine into law the very departures from the law that the Bush administration led us on, and that we all criticized so much. And I’ll elaborate on that. But that’s really my initial reaction to it; that what President Obama was talking about yesterday is making permanent some of the worst features of the Guantanamo regime. He may be shutting down the prison on that camp, but what’s worse is he may be importing some of those legal principles into our own legal system, where they’ll do great harm for a long time.

So even if Congress had fully supported and funded Obama’s plan to “close Guantanamo,” the core injustices that made the camp such a travesty would remain. In fact, they’d not only remain, but would be in full force within the U.S. That’s what makes the prime excuse offered for Obama — he tried to end all of this but couldn’t – so misleading. He only wanted to change the locale of these injustices, but sought fully to preserve them.

Indeed, as part of that excuse, one frequently hears that even liberal civil liberties stalwarts in the Senate — such as Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders — voted to deny funding for the closing of Guantanamo: as though it is they who are to blame for these enduring travesties, rather than Obama. But this, too, is misleading in the extreme.

The reason these Democratic Senators voted to deny funds for closing Guantanamo is not because they lacked the courage to close Guantanamo. It’s because they did not want to fund a plan to close the camp without knowing exactly what Obama planned to do with the detainees there — because people like Feingold and Sanders did not want to fund the importation of a system of indefinite detention onto U.S. soil. Here’s what actually happened when the Senate, including most Democrats, refused to fund the closing of Guantanamo:

[White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs] added Obama has not yet decided where some of the detainees will be sent. A presidential commission is studying the issue. . . .

Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii, chairman of the Appropriations Committee, favors closing Guantanamo, and the legislation his panel originally sent to the floor provided money for that purpose once the administration submitted a plan for the shutdown.

In changing course and seeking to delete the funds, he said, “The fact that the administration has not offered a workable plan at this point made that decision rather easy.”

Can that be any clearer? They would have voted to fund the closing of Guantanamo, but only once they knew what Obama’s plan was for the detainees there. Feingold — whose vote against funding the closing of Guantanamo is invariably cited by Obama defenders — wrote a letter to the President specifically to object to any plan to import the system of indefinite detention onto U.S. soil:

My primary concern, however, relates to your reference to the possibility of indefinite detention without trial for certain detainees. While I appreciate your good faith desire to at least enact a statutory basis for such a regime, any system that permits the government to indefinitely detain individuals without charge or without a meaningful opportunity to have accusations against them adjudicated by an impartial arbiter violates basic American values and is likely unconstitutional.

While I recognize that your administration inherited detainees who, because of torture, other forms of coercive interrogations, or other problems related to their detention or the evidence against them, pose considerable challenges to prosecution, holding them indefinitely without trial is inconsistent with the respect for the rule of law that the rest of your speech so eloquently invoked. Indeed, such detention is a hallmark of abusive systems that we have historically criticized around the world. It is hard to imagine that our country would regard as acceptable a system in another country where an individual other than a prisoner of war is held indefinitely without charge or trial.

Once a system of indefinite detention without trial is established, the temptation to use it in the future would be powerful. And, while your administration may resist such a temptation, future administrations may not. There is a real risk, then, of establishing policies and legal precedents that rather than ridding our country of the burden of the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, merely set the stage for future Guantanamos, whether on our shores or elsewhere, with disastrous consequences for our national security.

Worse, those policies and legal precedents would be effectively enshrined as acceptable in our system of justice, having been established not by one, largely discredited administration, but by successive administrations of both parties with greatly contrasting positions on legal and constitutional issues.

Feingold was not going to vote for a plan to close Guantanamo if it meant that its core injustice — indefinite detention — was going simply to be re-located onto American soil, where it would be entrenched rather than dismantled. That, as all of this evidence makes clear, is why so many Democratic Senators voted to deny funding for the closing of Guantanamo: not because they favored the continuation of indefinite detention, but precisely because they did not want to fund its continuation on American soil, as Obama clearly intended.

Now, here we are, almost four years after the vow to close Guantanamo was enshrined in an Executive Order, and the rights of detainees — including the basic right to legal counsel — are being constricted further, in plainly vindictive ways. Conditions at Guantanamo are undoubtedly better than they were in 2003, and some of the deficiencies in military commissions (for the few who appear before them) have been redressed. But the real stain of Guantanamo — keeping people locked up in cages for years with no charges — endures. And contrary to the blatant myth propagated by Obama defenders, that has happened not because Obama tried but failed to eliminate it, but precisely because he embraced it as his own policy from the start
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I disagree with the perception/interpretation of the paragraph above the bold, other than that, a worthy read.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Zaune »

“If the Bush administration didn’t like somebody, they’d kidnap them and send them to torture chambers. If the Obama administration decides they don’t like somebody, they murder them.”
Well, I know which I'd prefer to be on the receiving end of, so I reckon Obama comes out ahead on this one. But not by much.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Certainly, this is disturbing, but...
but we need not bother ourselves with how the Democratic nominee is deciding which Americans should die
...this really is quite a slippery-slope. The implication that al Awlaki's execution could open up the doors for Obama (or any President in the near future) to target any random American citizen by fiat is absurd. Awlaki's situation was unprecedented: the guy was impossible to arrest and lived outside of the US in a relatively difficult area of Yemen. Yes, I'd prefer if Obama tried to send a team in to capture him (which probably would have resulted in his death anyway), but I don't believe for a second that this is really some sort of precedent that will open the doors for Obama to unleash death-squads in the continental US, targeting anyone he wants.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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...this really is quite a slippery-slope. The implication that al Awlaki's execution could open up the doors for Obama (or any President in the near future) to target any random American citizen by fiat is absurd. Awlaki's situation was unprecedented: the guy was impossible to arrest and lived outside of the US in a relatively difficult area of Yemen. Yes, I'd prefer if Obama tried to send a team in to capture him (which probably would have resulted in his death anyway), but I don't believe for a second that this is really some sort of precedent that will open the doors for Obama to unleash death-squads in the continental US, targeting anyone he wants.
Unfortunately, the law does not work that way. We work on a common law system where precedents are set, and those precedents are binding. It does not really matter what the circumstances are th precedent is set such that the action is permitted irrespective of them.

There was no due process. At all. The executive branch decided on its own that it was going to kill him. It put him on a secret list. It kept the evidence used to put him on that list a secret. It then ordered him killed.

It does not matter who he was, or what his crimes were. There is nothing in the constitution or anywhere in our law, to my knowledge, that says "terrorism and treason are special crimes for which more lax rules of due process are permitted". So, if it is permissible for those crimes, why not others?

What if it was some guy, a scientist, say, who is helping another country create a nuclear energy program, and it is decided by the administration behind closed doors that the technology he is helping these people develop is a state secret, that he is a traitor, and that it would be too difficult to attempt to have him extradited? The same thing could be done, and it would be just as legal if this new presidential power is upheld.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:Unfortunately, the law does not work that way. We work on a common law system where precedents are set, and those precedents are binding. It does not really matter what the circumstances are th precedent is set such that the action is permitted irrespective of them.
But doesn't this only apply as a precedent if the actions are approved by a Judge? As far as I know, no court approved of this decision - it was, as you said, a unilateral decision taken by the executive branch - so it's not like it sets some sort of legal precedent here.

EDIT: Nevermind, apparently the ACLU, and then Awlaki's father, did challenge it in court.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by General Mung Beans »

Zaune wrote:
“If the Bush administration didn’t like somebody, they’d kidnap them and send them to torture chambers. If the Obama administration decides they don’t like somebody, they murder them.”
Well, I know which I'd prefer to be on the receiving end of, so I reckon Obama comes out ahead on this one. But not by much.
So you'd rather be killed than water-boarded?
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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General Mung Beans wrote:
Zaune wrote:
“If the Bush administration didn’t like somebody, they’d kidnap them and send them to torture chambers. If the Obama administration decides they don’t like somebody, they murder them.”
Well, I know which I'd prefer to be on the receiving end of, so I reckon Obama comes out ahead on this one. But not by much.
So you'd rather be killed than water-boarded?
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Channel72 wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Unfortunately, the law does not work that way. We work on a common law system where precedents are set, and those precedents are binding. It does not really matter what the circumstances are th precedent is set such that the action is permitted irrespective of them.
But doesn't this only apply as a precedent if the actions are approved by a Judge? As far as I know, no court approved of this decision - it was, as you said, a unilateral decision taken by the executive branch - so it's not like it sets some sort of legal precedent here.

EDIT: Nevermind, apparently the ACLU, and then Awlaki's father, did challenge it in court.
Yeah. The court responded with "You dont have standing until the guy is dead. He is of course welcome to come back to the US in order to challenge it himself" (not that this is viable, as he would A) Not have been permited to return due to No Fly list, in violation of his Right of Return as a US citizen, and would simply be killed/blackbagged off to GITMO in violation of... well everything.)
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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If you are on the no fly list, you can fly to Mexico and you can walk across the border. It has been done. I'd sure love to know what law asserts a right to use of commercial air traffic though. Not that I'm a fan of the no fly list either, but this is a really dumb argument to make.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Sea Skimmer wrote:If you are on the no fly list, you can fly to Mexico and you can walk across the border. It has been done. I'd sure love to know what law asserts a right to use of commercial air traffic though. Not that I'm a fan of the no fly list either, but this is a really dumb argument to make.
If you use it (as it has been done) to keep US citizens from returning home? Do I need to bring up that 18 year old kid who was tortured in IIRC Kuwait and then denied re-entry into the US for four months when the torture uncovered nothing?

There need not be a law specifically regarding air traffic. We are a signatory of he Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is binding, and includes a right to travel and return to one's nation of citizenship.
Article 9

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(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
...this really is quite a slippery-slope. The implication that al Awlaki's execution could open up the doors for Obama (or any President in the near future) to target any random American citizen by fiat is absurd. Awlaki's situation was unprecedented: the guy was impossible to arrest and lived outside of the US in a relatively difficult area of Yemen. Yes, I'd prefer if Obama tried to send a team in to capture him (which probably would have resulted in his death anyway), but I don't believe for a second that this is really some sort of precedent that will open the doors for Obama to unleash death-squads in the continental US, targeting anyone he wants.
Unfortunately, the law does not work that way. We work on a common law system where precedents are set, and those precedents are binding. It does not really matter what the circumstances are th precedent is set such that the action is permitted irrespective of them.
The only precedent set here is the use of assassinations against citizens who happen to be impossible to put on trial without risking many more lives. If you're going to talk about precedent and law, then you have to remember how specific legal language tends to be. You can't seriously believe that this would be interpreted in any reasonable sense as a precedent for arbitrarily assassinating any citizen who annoys the government.

Wild-eyed fearmongering doesn't look any better coming from liberals than it does coming from Michele Bachmann.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The only precedent set here is the use of assassinations against citizens who happen to be impossible to put on trial without risking many more lives. If you're going to talk about precedent and law, then you have to remember how specific legal language tends to be. You can't seriously believe that this would be interpreted in any reasonable sense as a precedent for arbitrarily assassinating any citizen who annoys the government.
If there were an actual law on the books, you might have a point. There is not. The entire process by which a person is put on the list is secret and thus completely arbitrary. The list is secret, and thus there is no due process by which to have one's self removed. For fear of simply being killed, you cannot challenge it in court, and any proxy you designate does not have standing to challenge your listing or the process, or anything else related to it until after you are dead (Thank you Supreme Court). Moreover, the sweeping assertion of executive privilege that has so far worked to keep our torture of allied nationals from being prosecuted or otherwise redressed will more than likely be effective at keeping even someone who has standing out of the courts. The list is afterall, a secret. Even if you found out that a loved one was killed under its auspices, it is classified and thus having your case ever heard is at best a dicey proposition.

I of course use "you" in the sweeping impersonal sense of the word.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by NecronLord »

Thanas wrote:
But what really stood out was Coll’s recounting of the events leading up to Awlaki’s assassination:

President Barack Obama had personally authorized the killing. “I want Awlaki,” he is said to have told his advisers at one point. “Don’t let up on him.” The President’s bracing words about a fellow American are reported in “Kill or Capture,” a recent and important book on the Obama Administration’s detention and targeted-killing programs, by Daniel Klaidman, a former deputy editor of Newsweek.

With those words attributed to Obama, Klaidman has reported what would appear to be the first instance in American history of a sitting President speaking of his intent to kill a particular U.S. citizen without that citizen having been charged formally with a crime or convicted at trial.
I find it hard to believe that Honest Abe never talked about killing any confederates during the US Civil War.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Unfortunately, the law does not work that way. We work on a common law system where precedents are set, and those precedents are binding. It does not really matter what the circumstances are th precedent is set such that the action is permitted irrespective of them.
The only precedent set here is the use of assassinations against citizens who happen to be impossible to put on trial without risking many more lives. If you're going to talk about precedent and law, then you have to remember how specific legal language tends to be. You can't seriously believe that this would be interpreted in any reasonable sense as a precedent for arbitrarily assassinating any citizen who annoys the government.

Wild-eyed fearmongering doesn't look any better coming from liberals than it does coming from Michele Bachmann.
Wong, I think his point is that the 'precedent' is that the president doesn't even need to ask the courts before signing someone's death warrant. I can't remember hearing about Al-Awlaki getting convicted of any specific crime he could be arrested for, at least not in the US.

Obama wanted him dead because the government security apparatus "just knows" that he was a Very Bad Man (TM). There's a real question about burden of proof here; if you can build up enough 'evidence' to kill a man in such an informal, unsupervised way, is it really true that you couldn't do it to just anyone?

If there were laws about this, if it was even on the constitutional radar as a serious problem, I'd be a lot less inclined to worry about it.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Serafina »

The bad part isn't that he wasn't convicted of anything.
The bad part is that he wasn't charged with anything (as far as i understand it at least, please correct me if i am wrong).
And you can't arrest someone who isn't charged with anything - you either need to get evidence and an arrest warrant, or witness the crime directly in order to arrest someone. So the argument "well he was too difficult to arrest" falls flat, because it wouldn't even have been legal to arrest him.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by K. A. Pital »

When it comes to "not killing just anyone" one should remember that the same tactic can be applied to an accomplice to any paramilitary movement which the US may not like (and thus designate as terrorist), albeit this movement might have legitimacy. So of course it is unlikely that this will be used to take out Joe Averages. However, it can be used to unleash a campaign of assassinations against those who help real paramilitary movements which may be entirely legitimate for some. For example, the Nepalese Civil War's red side could have been targeted if the US gave a shit about Nepal. And I also mean the U.S. citizens which might get involved with such a movement - aid it financially or help organize operations/publicity etc., being located outside of US territory like Awlaki was.

And you don't need to put people on trial - just make sure they're associated with Bad Guy Movement X.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Mr Bean »

Darth Wong wrote: The only precedent set here is the use of assassinations against citizens who happen to be impossible to put on trial without risking many more lives. If you're going to talk about precedent and law, then you have to remember how specific legal language tends to be. You can't seriously believe that this would be interpreted in any reasonable sense as a precedent for arbitrarily assassinating any citizen who annoys the government.

Wild-eyed fearmongering doesn't look any better coming from liberals than it does coming from Michele Bachmann.
DW to echo a few other points raised here let me remind you of the chain that lead up to execution of al Awlaki.

First al Awlaki was identified as a possible person of interest related to serve possible terrorism cases. He was not suspected of any terrorism himself but simply that he had known those that had known those who had gone on to commit or attempt to commit terrorism. Second he was known to make statements of Jihad against the United states but again we had no evidence that he ever participated in anything himself. Third al Awlaki was in a foreign country (Yemen). Four he was ordered killed. No attempts were made to ask the Yemenise to arrest him, no arrest warrants were issued... No charges were filled. Fifth we made two attempts at him, the second of which was successful. Then we blew up his funeral in a "Signature Strike" where we blow something up without targeting anyone specifically because we kinda hoped that not only family members would attend his funeral but also militants as well.

Following legal precedent if I as the American president that John Doe is suspected of calling for Jihad against the United States I can simply order him killed and his funeral attacked because I said so. The lack of charges being filed means that not even the most basic of efforts were made and reduces this directly down to as the American President you can order Americans abroad killed as you like because you don't even have to go in front of a judge anymore.

If you can kill someone without filing charges or ever getting in front of a judge what check is it on the American Presidents power to order someone killed?

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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Darth Wong »

Well isn't that a side-effect of formally making the president a top-level military officer as well as a civilian political leader?

I guess I don't see the outrage because you guys stampeded into a war, and in war, civilian liberties get curtailed. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have cheered and waved flags about starting a war back in 2003. So I guess my attitude on this is "well, if Americans don't like this quasi-martial law state that they're in, it's their own damned fault for choosing it".
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Ralin »

Yeah, speaking for myself, if Al-Awlaki had been holed up in a Tora Bora firing an AK-47 at allied forces or something I probably wouldn't have a problem with drone bombing his ass. But near as I can tell all he ever did was rant about how America is evil, say God wants dead Americans and post videos about it on the Internet. Fred Phelps does that every damned day. I don't see any Hellfire missiles heading towards his house.
I guess I don't see the outrage because you guys stampeded into a war, and in war, civilian liberties get curtailed. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have cheered and waved flags about starting a war back in 2003. So I guess my attitude on this is "well, if Americans don't like this quasi-martial law state that they're in, it's their own damned fault for choosing it".
And those of us like me who were opposed to the Iraq war since day one? Is it our fault too?
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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Darth Wong wrote:Well isn't that a side-effect of formally making the president a top-level military officer as well as a civilian political leader?

I guess I don't see the outrage because you guys stampeded into a war, and in war, civilian liberties get curtailed. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have cheered and waved flags about starting a war back in 2003. So I guess my attitude on this is "well, if Americans don't like this quasi-martial law state that they're in, it's their own damned fault for choosing it".
What War was declared with Yemen?
The problem is that every Chief Executive has increased the power of the Presidency since the last serious knock back with Nixon. As been pointed out what Nixon did in secret and got him impeached, Bush established a department to do and did semi-openly.

Thus the problem Obama has taken all that Bush as done and expanded on it to the point at which the next American President can kill any American by order at will and it be routine. What Congress won't fight and what the media won't spend time reporting on becomes a enshrined power of the American Presidency.

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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Well isn't that a side-effect of formally making the president a top-level military officer as well as a civilian political leader?

I guess I don't see the outrage because you guys stampeded into a war, and in war, civilian liberties get curtailed. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have cheered and waved flags about starting a war back in 2003. So I guess my attitude on this is "well, if Americans don't like this quasi-martial law state that they're in, it's their own damned fault for choosing it".
I was not one of the people waving that flag. Even in my Lolbertarian state, I do not recall doing so.

Also: we have had plenty of wars. This is America, it is sort of our bag. Even in the depths of the horrors of WW2, or the paranoid frenzy of the cold war that lasted almost 50 years, the curtailing of civil liberties never extended to the erasure of due process. Ever. Not in this country. I think it safe to say that even those who supported the war did not sign on for this--and if they would now...well... Then the US is no longer a country I want to live in.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

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I can't think of a single democracy where the president/prime minister/equivalent isn't the commander in chief - at least during wartime. Granted, in most that authority is held by the minister of defense during peacetime. But the minister of defense is also a civilian official - and i'd rather have civilian oversight over the military.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think we can't seriously hold people who had been consistently against the curtailing of civil liberties under "war state" since 2001, consistently against war, responsible for what happened back then or is happening now. However, these people failed to make the difference at a nation-state level. Even Obama's election did not reverse the situation, and I bet many of the dissappointed voted for Obama hoping for the change to come. Not many are so cynical and "dupe-proof" that they were sure back in 2008 - Obama is "more of the same". I must admit, my skepticism is at an all-time high, but even I for a moment felt that Obama is a bigger political figure than he turned out to be. Even I fell into the illusion that more "socially-democratic" thinking candidates are more likely to curtail the expansion. I should have just considered the horrific French conduct in Africa under Francois Mitterand to understand that this is not so.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by Darth Wong »

Oh please, spare me the "I didn't vote for it" shtick. For one thing, people who supported the Iraq War are mysteriously far less common today than they were in 2003. There's a whole lot of history-revising bullshit going on when it comes to peoples' personal opinions on this. But more to the point, that's the way democracies work: if you lose the vote, then things don't go your way and yes, you are in fact forced to live with the consequences of that decision even if you didn't agree with it.
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Re: Obama the pioneer

Post by K. A. Pital »

Uh... I couldn't vote for or against it even if I really wanted to, DW. And yeah, few people were consistent in their anti-war position, especially in the US. I guess I should just leave this entire discussion to Americans.
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