A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experiment

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A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experiment

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The Dominion
WHITEHORSE, YK—Try to imagine a town where the government paid each of the residents a living income, regardless of who they were and what they did, and a Soviet hamlet in the early 1980s may come to mind.

But this experiment happened much closer to home. For a four-year period in the '70s, the poorest families in Dauphin, Manitoba, were granted a guaranteed minimum income by the federal and provincial governments. Thirty-five years later all that remains of the experiment are 2,000 boxes of documents that have gathered dust in the Canadian archives building in Winnipeg.

Until now little has been known about what unfolded over those four years in the small rural town, since the government locked away the data that had been collected and prevented it from being analyzed.

But after a five year struggle, Evelyn Forget, a professor of health sciences at the University of Manitoba, secured access to those boxes in 2009. Until the data is computerized, any systematic analysis is impossible. Undeterred, Forget has begun to piece together the story by using the census, health records, and the testimony of the program's participants. What is now emerging reveals that the program could have counted many successes.

Beginning in 1974, Pierre Trudeau's Liberals and Manitoba's first elected New Democratic Party government gave money to every person and family in Dauphin who fell below the poverty line. Under the program—called “Mincome”—about 1,000 families received monthly cheques.

Unlike welfare, which only certain individuals qualified for, the guaranteed minimum income project was open to everyone. It was the first—and to this day, only—time that Canada has ever experimented with such an open-door social assistance program.

In today’s conservative political climate, with constant government and media rhetoric about the inefficiency and wastefulness of the welfare state, the Mincome project sounds like nothing short of a fairy tale.

For four years Dauphin was a place where anyone living below the poverty line could receive monthly cheques to boost their income, no questions asked. Single mothers could afford to put their kids through school and low-income families weren't scrambling to pay the rent each month.

For Amy Richardson, it meant she could afford to buy her children books for school. Richardson joined the program in 1977, just after her husband had gone on disability leave from his job. At the time, she was struggling to raise her three youngest children on $1.50 haircuts she gave in her living room beauty parlour.

The $1,200 per year she received in monthly increments was a welcome supplement, in a time when the poverty line was $2,100 a year.

“The extra money meant that I was also able to give my kids something I wouldn't ordinarily be able to, like taking them to a show or some small luxury like that,” said Richardson, now 84, who spoke to The Dominion by phone from Dauphin.

As part of the experiment, an army of researchers were sent to Dauphin to interview the Mincome families. Residents in nearby rural towns who didn't receive Mincome were also surveyed so their statistics could be compared against those from Dauphin. But after the government cut the program in 1978, they simply warehoused the data and never bothered to analyze it.

“When the government introduced the program they really thought it would be a pilot project and that by the end of the decade they would roll this out and everybody would participate,” said Forget. “They thought it would become a universal program. But of course, the idea eventually just died off.”

During the Mincome program, the federal and provincial governments collectively spent $17 million, though it was initially supposed to have cost only a few million.

Meant to last several more years, the program came to a quick halt in 1978 when an economic recession hit Canada. The recession had caused prices to increase 10 per cent each year, so payouts to families under Mincome had increased accordingly.

Trudeau's Liberals, already on the defensive for an overhaul of Canada's employment insurance system, killed the program and withheld any additional money to analyze the data that had been amassed.

“It's hugely unfortunate and typical of the strange ways in which government works that the data was never analyzed,” says Ron Hikel who coordinated the Mincome program. Hikel now works in the United States to promote universal healthcare reform.

“Government officials opposed [to Mincome] didn't want to spend more money to analyze the data and show what they already thought: that it didn't work,” says Hikel, who remains a strong proponent of guaranteed income programs.

“And the people who were in favour of Mincome were worried because if the analysis was done and the data wasn't favourable then they would have just spent another million dollars on analysis and be even more embarrassed.”

But Forget has culled some useful info from Manitoba labour data. Her research confirms numerous positive consequences of the program.

Initially, the Mincome program was conceived as a labour market experiment. The government wanted to know what would happen if everybody in town received a guaranteed income, and specifically, they wanted to know whether people would still work.

It turns out they did.

Only two segments of Dauphin's labour force worked less as a result of Mincome—new mothers and teenagers. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies. And teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families.

The end result was that they spent more time at school and more teenagers graduated. Those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did.

“People didn't have to take the first job that came along,” says Hikel. “They could wait for something better that suited them.”

For some, it meant the opportunity to land a job to help them get by.

When Doreen and Hugh Henderson arrived in Dauphin in 1970 with their two young children they were broke. Doreen suggested moving from Vancouver to her hometown because she thought her husband would have an easier time finding work there. But when they arrived, things weren't any better.

“My husband didn't have a very good job and I couldn't find work,” she told The Dominion by phone from Dauphin.

It wasn't until 1978, after receiving Mincome payments for two years, that her husband finally landed janitorial work at the local school, a job he kept for 28 years.

“I don't know how we would have lived without [Mincome],” said Doreen.“I don't know if we would have stayed in Dauphin.”

Although the Mincome experiment was intended to provide a body of information to study labour market trends, Forget discovered that Mincome had a significant effect on people's well being. Two years ago, the professor started studying the health records of Dauphin residents to assess the impacts of the program.

In the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 per cent. Fewer people went to the hospital with work-related injuries and there were fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse. There were also far fewer mental health visits.

It's not hard to see why, says Forget.

“When you walk around a hospital, it's pretty clear that a lot of the time what we're treating are the consequences of poverty,” she says.

Give people financial independence and control over their lives and these accidents and illnesses tend to dissipate, says Forget. In today's terms, an 8.5 per cent decrease in hospital visits across Canada would save the government $4 billion annually, by her calculations. And $4 billion is the amount that the federal government is currently trying to save by slashing social programming and arts funding.

Having analyzed the health data, Forget is now working on a cost-benefit analysis to see what a guaranteed income program might save the federal government if it were implemented today. She’s already worked with a Senate committee investigating a guaranteed income program for all low-income Canadians.

The Canadian government's sudden interest in guaranteed income programs doesn't surprise Forget.

Every 10 or 15 years there seems to be a renewed interest in getting Guaranteed Income (GI) programs off the ground, according to Saskatchewan social work professor James Mulvale. He's researched and written extensively about guaranteed income programs and is also part the Canadian chapter of the Basic Income Earth Network, a worldwide organization that advocates for guaranteed income.

GI programs exist in countries like Brazil, Mexico, France and even the state of Alaska.

Although people may not recognize it, subtle forms of guaranteed income already exist in Canada, says Mulvale, pointing to the child benefit tax, guaranteed income for seniors and the modest GST/HST rebate program for low-income earners.

However, a wider-reaching guaranteed income program would go a long way in decreasing poverty, he says.

Mulvale is in favour of a “demo-grant” model of GI that would give automatic cash transfers to everybody in Canada. This kind of plan would also provide the option of taxing higher-income earners at the end of the year so poorer people receive benefits.

A model such as this has a higher chance of broad support because it goes out to everybody, according to Mulvale. GI can also be administered as a negative income tax to the poor, meaning they'd receive an amount of money back directly in proportion to what they make each year.

“GI by itself wouldn't eliminate poverty but it would go a heck of a long way to decrease the extent of poverty in this country,” says Mulvale.

Conservative senator Hugh Segal has been the biggest supporter of this kind of GI, claiming it would eliminate the social assistance programs now administered by the provinces and territories. Rather than having a separate office to administer child tax benefits, welfare, unemployment insurance and income supplement for seniors, they could all be rolled into one GI scheme.

It would also mean that anybody could apply for support. Many people fall through the cracks under the current welfare system, says Forget. Not everybody can access welfare and those who can are penalized for going to school or for working a job since the money they receive from welfare is then clawed back.

If a guaranteed income program can target more people and is more efficient than other social assistance programs, then why doesn't Canada have such a program in place already? Perhaps the biggest barrier is the prevalence of negative stereotypes about poor people.

“There's very strong feelings out there that we shouldn't give people money for nothing,” Mulvale says.

Guaranteed income proponents aren't holding their breaths that they'll see such a program here anytime soon, but they are hopeful that one day Canada will consider the merits of guaranteed income.

The cost would be "not nearly as prohibitive to do as people imagine it is," says Forget. “A guaranteed minimum income program is a superior way of delivering social assistance. The only thing is that it's of course politically difficult to implement.”

Vivian Belik is a freelance journalist based in the frozen northlands of Whitehorse, Yukon. She was, however, raised in Manitoba where she has spotted many of the provinces small-town statues including the giant beaver in Dauphin.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Guardsman Bass »

It would probably be the most efficient way to do assistance spending, particularly compared to the patchwork of programs we have in the US right now. It would also be a great way to boost workers' "exit power", by giving them greater power to walk away from jobs or even to sit out of the labor force until better opportunities come along (although this might be muted a bit if people both work and collect the basic income, and get "stuck" at a higher level of personal spending and debt).

The amount would be large. The poverty threshold for a household of four with two dependent children is ~$22,000 a year. If you decided to just give that as a Basic Income to the 114 million US households identified in the 2012 Census, then you'd be spending ~$2.5 trillion a year. It's not impossible, particularly if it replaced a good chunk of entitlement and welfare spending (along with possible reductions in the military budget), but it would be a significant outlay. My guess is that you'd see it split between the federal government and the states, so that the whole amount didn't just appear as a massive expenditure on the federal budget.

It's speculation, but I wonder if this would work really well with a national-level VAT or sales tax. Higher income already pre-disposes people to invest a larger percentage of their income, and consumption taxes would further encourage people to invest and save earnings. On the downside, it might also reduce aggregate demand in a country where consumption is already 70+% of spending, which would not be good for growth.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Scottish Ninja »

Guardsman Bass wrote:The amount would be large. The poverty threshold for a household of four with two dependent children is ~$22,000 a year. If you decided to just give that as a Basic Income to the 114 million US households identified in the 2012 Census, then you'd be spending ~$2.5 trillion a year. It's not impossible, particularly if it replaced a good chunk of entitlement and welfare spending (along with possible reductions in the military budget), but it would be a significant outlay. My guess is that you'd see it split between the federal government and the states, so that the whole amount didn't just appear as a massive expenditure on the federal budget.
Keep in mind this scheme only pays out the difference between income and the poverty line, so the costs would be a lot lower if you were only doing that - about a sixth as much at most since the poverty rate in the US is somewhere around 16%, and less than that in practice.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Alkaloid »

You also have the issue of Canada having more or less affordable healthcare and the US not. Living above the poverty line can mean a lot less if your 1 diagnosis away from tens of thousands in medical bills.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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Even in the horrible US system it's still better if you can afford a checkup and preventative treatments every once in a while than if you live below the poverty line and almost never go to see the doctor. It's the ghetto tax all over again.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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I am not sure what this is supposed to show in relation to your article about the Canadian experiment. Its from 2011 and talks about increasing mechanisation in a Taiwanese company with factories in China, albeit one with shitty work conditions which cycles through workers fast as they go to greener pastures. As China loses the so called demographic dividend it will need to move into robotics, not just because its cheaper, also because their will be insufficient workers to produce the volume of goods they trade. This type of prediction was made in the 80s in regard to Japan, and later on in regard to South Korea, and now its looking like its China's turn.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by LaCroix »

Thinking only briefly about it - 2012, the us paid about 80bn$ in food stamps, alone - assuming these people live on average on ~10000$, coming up with the difference of 12000$ for a 4-person household means that you could slash food stamps and simply raise 6.5m households to above poverty. Since there are officially 1.5 million households lving in extreme poverty, and then about 1.5 million homeless, this kind of money would actually cover all of them, with enough money to spare to also help the households closer to poverty line.

Using other math, that 6.5m 4-person households would constitute ~26m people, which is a fair chunk of the ~45m people living in poverty.

And that's just food stamps...
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by PeZook »

This would also mean that should food aid receivers want to better their conditions by investing in appliances, education or things like these, they could do so and cut back a little on food consumption. In other words, giving people money increases their options, while giving them material aid decreases them.

I think it was Surlethe who said that somewhere...
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Zaune »

mr friendly guy wrote:I am not sure what this is supposed to show in relation to your article about the Canadian experiment. Its from 2011 and talks about increasing mechanisation in a Taiwanese company with factories in China, albeit one with shitty work conditions which cycles through workers fast as they go to greener pastures. As China loses the so called demographic dividend it will need to move into robotics, not just because its cheaper, also because their will be insufficient workers to produce the volume of goods they trade. This type of prediction was made in the 80s in regard to Japan, and later on in regard to South Korea, and now its looking like its China's turn.
I was alluding to the fact that if even China's starting to shed unskilled and semi-skilled factory labour because robots are cheaper, the chances of Europe and North America returning to anything near full employment are absurdly remote.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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Guardsman Bass wrote:It's speculation, but I wonder if this would work really well with a national-level VAT or sales tax. Higher income already pre-disposes people to invest a larger percentage of their income, and consumption taxes would further encourage people to invest and save earnings. On the downside, it might also reduce aggregate demand in a country where consumption is already 70+% of spending, which would not be good for growth.
Don't apply taxes to certain essentials. It's already the case in many (most?) US states that neither food nor prescription medicine has sales tax applied (just as a reference, in my county sales tax is 7% but in nearby Cook County, Illinois it's 11%). This would help prevent the VAT falling disproportionately on the poor.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Scottish Ninja wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:The amount would be large. The poverty threshold for a household of four with two dependent children is ~$22,000 a year. If you decided to just give that as a Basic Income to the 114 million US households identified in the 2012 Census, then you'd be spending ~$2.5 trillion a year. It's not impossible, particularly if it replaced a good chunk of entitlement and welfare spending (along with possible reductions in the military budget), but it would be a significant outlay. My guess is that you'd see it split between the federal government and the states, so that the whole amount didn't just appear as a massive expenditure on the federal budget.
Keep in mind this scheme only pays out the difference between income and the poverty line, so the costs would be a lot lower if you were only doing that - about a sixth as much at most since the poverty rate in the US is somewhere around 16%, and less than that in practice.
Something like that
"
The $1,200 per year she received in monthly increments was a welcome supplement, in a time when the poverty line was $2,100 a year."
This type of scheme gets thrown around a lot as a solution for the scenario of "In 30 years robots will replace X0% of the workforce leading to mass unemployment for all but a high end slice of the population" .

Whether it would work well on a large scale remains to be seen (I think it might/could, when done on this level as opposed to a Soviet or Kibbutz style system where the GI is the ONLY income).
I think the fact that it actually pays out to all members of the population could work out very very well - Look at the Scandinavian countries - rich people and upper middle class people there still get all of the systems benefits, as opposed to various lock-out systems aimed exclusively at ethnicities/minorities/poor.

So - if i'm reading this right, the program didn't give minimum wage, but somewhat less - between the poverty line and minimum wage assuming a full work week?
(It's a little confusing for someone like me from a non US country, I'm used to thinking of the minimum wage as beeing around/above the poverty line for an individual/couple in normal circumstances, not well below it).
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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It doesn't help the confusion that different US states have different minimum wages.

Federal US minimum wage is $7.25/hour, which is supposed to be the floor no worker falls under. However, certain workers, such as restaurant waitstaff, can has a minimum wage as low as $2-something an hour because the presumption is that they will make up the difference in tips (which is why, if you're in the US, you really should tip your waitstaff if you eat at a restaurant).

Federal minimum wage is below the poverty line, even if you work full time. Even where the minimum wage is higher you might effectively be below the poverty line because such areas also tend to have higher costs of living.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by spaceviking »

Doesn't the U.S kinda need to have different minimum wages, since the cost of living varies so much? Like a minimum wage that would keep you alive in New York state might allow you to live quite comfortable in rural Alabama. Though I am not American so I am just basing this off what I have heard.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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That's precisely why the states are allowed to set their minimum wage higher than the Federal. The Federal is the lower limit, that's all.

In fact, smaller governmental units than states can set higher minimum wages. The city of San Francisco, for example, currently has the highest minimum wage in the US at $10.55/hour. This is in contrast to the state of California as a whole, which is $8.00

The minimum wage has some utility for those who are actually working, and working full time. The guaranteed income applies to all, working or not.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Stormin »

A basic income would be great. Right now I'm stuck at a crap job doing graveyard 40 hours a week for 50 cents above min wage. If it wouldn't kick me to the streets I would drop this job in a heartbeat, go back to school with that as my primary focus (since I'm not a smart person I would probably need to devote pretty much my entire focus to schoolwork to pass) and get some qualifications to find a better job, and not have to take the first one that offers enough hours to survive.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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Stormin wrote:A basic income would be great. Right now I'm stuck at a crap job doing graveyard 40 hours a week for 50 cents above min wage. If it wouldn't kick me to the streets I would drop this job in a heartbeat, go back to school with that as my primary focus (since I'm not a smart person I would probably need to devote pretty much my entire focus to schoolwork to pass) and get some qualifications to find a better job, and not have to take the first one that offers enough hours to survive.
Not everyone can get a better job though. Someone has to work crappy graveyard shifts, because that job needs to be done by someone. Minimum wages should just be high enough that you can live comfortably, and not live in fear of an illness or car accident ruining your life.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Some of the schemes I've seen is the basic income guarantee, which gives you the money regardless of how much you make from other sources of income. This one appeals to me more, because the downside of billionaires getting welfare is irrelevant since they'd be taxed significantly more than they get from it anyway while for people on the lower end, going from unemployed to a 12k a year job (if the basic income is 10k, say) now actually will give them 12k a year rather than just 2k. That helps ensure there's not a welfare trap at the bottom and helps cut out the bureaucracy of finding out who needs the money and who's making over the threshhold.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

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spaceviking wrote:Not everyone can get a better job though. Someone has to work crappy graveyard shifts, because that job needs to be done by someone. Minimum wages should just be high enough that you can live comfortably, and not live in fear of an illness or car accident ruining your life.

There's something wrong though where companies can pay one step away from the lowest possible by law for a job that needs to be done but nobody wants to do it. If a BIG allowed people to have the option to quit without having to move to a box under a bridge then a lot more people would be able and willing to take risks like going for training to work better jobs or even opening their own businesses. This would mean that with it, the crap jobs would have to pay more to be worth it to people or accept that the positions will only be filled by people as a short stop over until they get something better.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Some of the schemes I've seen is the basic income guarantee, which gives you the money regardless of how much you make from other sources of income. This one appeals to me more, because the downside of billionaires getting welfare is irrelevant since they'd be taxed significantly more than they get from it anyway while for people on the lower end, going from unemployed to a 12k a year job (if the basic income is 10k, say) now actually will give them 12k a year rather than just 2k. That helps ensure there's not a welfare trap at the bottom and helps cut out the bureaucracy of finding out who needs the money and who's making over the threshhold.
That's the one I like as well, particularly since I think that would really help the politics of it in the US. You can sell it as a safety net for everyone, even if in practice it ends up meaning more to people at the bottom because it's a vastly larger chunk of their income. It's sort of like how Social Security maintains widespread support - everyone can at least theoretically count on that, even if they're realistically going to have a ton of investments that will give them a good retirement regardless of it. And you never know what might happen with your financial situation . . .
spaceviking wrote:Not everyone can get a better job though. Someone has to work crappy graveyard shifts, because that job needs to be done by someone. Minimum wages should just be high enough that you can live comfortably, and not live in fear of an illness or car accident ruining your life.
With a basic income, you'd probably just see companies split up the shifts, offer higher wages, or offer benefits. In fact, I suspect a fair number of companies would be more willing to offer benefits in a situation with a basic income, because it would be cheaper to get more work than paying higher wages (health benefits are tax-deductible for employers IIRC).
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by spaceviking »

I am not disagreeing with you, just stating that everyone cannot upgrade and get a better job. Some crappy jobs, just need to be less crappy.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Broomstick wrote: Federal US minimum wage is $7.25/hour, which is supposed to be the floor no worker falls under. However, certain workers, such as restaurant waitstaff, can has a minimum wage as low as $2-something an hour because the presumption is that they will make up the difference in tips (which is why, if you're in the US, you really should tip your waitstaff if you eat at a restaurant).
Its not a presumption, the law says the employer must ensure that the waitstaff earns 7.25$ an hour minimal, and pay whatever it takes to make that happen. No matter how much the staff is tipped meanwhile, they must also get at least 2.13$ from the employer. So while this law does get violated all the time, it is not legal for the waiters to actually be paid under minimal wage.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Washington State does not have an exception for tipped employees, which makes me really proud of my homeland.

Anyway, it seems that even a very limited supplement (only about half of the poverty line, in that woman's case) can have a huge impact, which is something to consider -- even if it doesn't keep people out of poverty by itself, the payment may still have a massive positive benefit. Let's say that in addition to $200.00 a month in foodstamps, the government just handed you $200.00 a month in cash that can be used on anything also, and the obsolete existing free landline programme was replaced free internet and a free cellphone, which is a more realistic way to look for a job these days. That isn't enough to live on, but how many people here who've been unemployed for long periods would have done a hell of a lot better with that money coming in? TANF frequently gives less than that to families, so the current welfare system is totally worthless. Even if it is underfunded, this system, beyond having much lower bureaucratic overhead, might well be much more effective than our current patchwork.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Zaune »

Broomstick wrote:Federal US minimum wage is $7.25/hour, which is supposed to be the floor no worker falls under. However, certain workers, such as restaurant waitstaff, can has a minimum wage as low as $2-something an hour because the presumption is that they will make up the difference in tips (which is why, if you're in the US, you really should tip your waitstaff if you eat at a restaurant).
This is something you could try a lot harder to warn tourists about, I might add.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Better is to just force restaurants to pay better than $2.13 an hour so that getting stiffed, be it through malice or ignorance of local tipping customs, doesn't suck so bad. Or, better yet, pay servers well from the word go and bump up prices a little to make up for it so that tips are a way to actually say "You went above and beyond, keep up the good work." I know I'd still give a tip to servers that provided the fastest service they could and were generally pleasant to have around.
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Re: A Town Without Poverty: The Canadian Basic Income Experi

Post by Irbis »

Zaune wrote:This is something you could try a lot harder to warn tourists about, I might add.
Yeah. I still find the concept bizarre. It's like outsourcing - lower prices by giving people shit wages, then expect customers to still pay full price, just hidden. Funny thing managers and owners always just take cash, instead of lowering their own wages and participating in tip fund too.

Which is another stupid idea, I understand tip fund is jar to which everyone put tips and is divided at end of the day - because this lets owners screw cooks too and removes any pretence it's your outstanding work that gives you tips.
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