Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
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Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
The mother of some guys who went to Princeton advocated this as advice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nina-baha ... n&ir=Women
I's hitting the media circles now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nina-baha ... n&ir=Women
I's hitting the media circles now.
"Opps, wanted to add; wasn't there a study about how really smart people lead shitty lives socially? I vaguely remember something about it, so correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather let the new Newton or new Tesla lead a better life than have him have a shitty one and come up with apple powered death rays."
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- DieselJester
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Wow... what century is she living in?
"Incoming Fire has the right of way."
-Murphy's 18th Law of Combat.
-Murphy's 18th Law of Combat.
Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
You are linking an article instead of the actual opinion peace...
Try this link instead
Its worth the read.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... y-son.html
Try this link instead
Its worth the read.

Here is a follow up interview.Here is another truth that you know, but nobody is talking about. As freshman women, you have four classes of men to choose from. Every year, you lose the men in the senior class, and you become older than the class of incoming freshman men.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... y-son.html
- Lagmonster
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
It's an opinion, about a perspective and goal for one's life that may be satisfying to the person living it. If it was something other than a letter-to-the-editor by someone with no real power at the university, I might care.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
- DieselJester
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
True, but I find her opinion just a tad bit insulting, especially right there at the end:
It reminds me of all of those stupid 'equally yoked' sermons/lectures that I got as a kid from my family.
So pretty much women should only marry their intellectual equals and even then only those who are older or something? Jeez. If that were the case, I'd be screwed. Going off of Ms. Patton's opinion here, I theoretically should only be married to someone who has an Associates Degree and my wife should theoretically be married to someone who not only has a Bachelor's Degree, but has taken Masters level classes at a University.Of course, once you graduate, you will meet men who are your intellectual equal — just not that many of them. And, you could choose to marry a man who has other things to recommend him besides a soaring intellect. But ultimately, it will frustrate you to be with a man who just isn’t as smart as you.
Here is another truth that you know, but nobody is talking about. As freshman women, you have four classes of men to choose from. Every year, you lose the men in the senior class, and you become older than the class of incoming freshman men. So, by the time you are a senior, you basically have only the men in your own class to choose from, and frankly, they now have four classes of women to choose from. Maybe you should have been a little nicer to these guys when you were freshmen?
It reminds me of all of those stupid 'equally yoked' sermons/lectures that I got as a kid from my family.

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-Murphy's 18th Law of Combat.
- Lagmonster
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
I wouldn't take her advice except at gunpoint, personally. I'm just saying live-and-let-live while simultaneously being happy she has no real influence over anyone.
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- Broomstick
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Basically, she's saying that women need to choose mates that are:
1) Older
2) At least as smart (however you define the term)
3) At least as well educated
4) Will make as much or more money as the woman
... and get it all done before they graduate college at, presumably, 22 years of age. Yes, it's an older paradigm that even in the "good old days" wasn't always followed.
About the only real truth I see here is that if having children is a priority for the woman, meaning something she absolutely wants to accomplish in life, she needs to cut a stallion from the herd and get to it by 30 if possible, because if she wait until 35 or 40 her fertility is plummeting like a rock. But not every woman these days wants kids, or wants to make having them a priority. Some women are willing to risk waiting, and as long as their choice is an informed one I'm fine with that.
One of the downsides, of course, is that people are NOT fully mature at 21 or 22 and choosing a mate that early may result in problems down the line.
It's becoming more socially acceptable for women to marry younger men/men to marry older women, for women to marry men with less education, for men to marry women who make more a year than they do, and so forth. I'm disturbed that this mother places such emphasis on you must be married to be happy. Yes, a good marriage is a great thing, but no marriage at all may well be better than a bad marriage.
It's telling that the author is the mother of sons - I wonder if she had had daughters her advice would be the same?
1) Older
2) At least as smart (however you define the term)
3) At least as well educated
4) Will make as much or more money as the woman
... and get it all done before they graduate college at, presumably, 22 years of age. Yes, it's an older paradigm that even in the "good old days" wasn't always followed.
About the only real truth I see here is that if having children is a priority for the woman, meaning something she absolutely wants to accomplish in life, she needs to cut a stallion from the herd and get to it by 30 if possible, because if she wait until 35 or 40 her fertility is plummeting like a rock. But not every woman these days wants kids, or wants to make having them a priority. Some women are willing to risk waiting, and as long as their choice is an informed one I'm fine with that.
One of the downsides, of course, is that people are NOT fully mature at 21 or 22 and choosing a mate that early may result in problems down the line.
It's becoming more socially acceptable for women to marry younger men/men to marry older women, for women to marry men with less education, for men to marry women who make more a year than they do, and so forth. I'm disturbed that this mother places such emphasis on you must be married to be happy. Yes, a good marriage is a great thing, but no marriage at all may well be better than a bad marriage.
It's telling that the author is the mother of sons - I wonder if she had had daughters her advice would be the same?
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
I think she would actually. She would probably pressure that even more if she got screwedi n marrying too late and getting a "lower quality" partner.Broomstick wrote:It's telling that the author is the mother of sons - I wonder if she had had daughters her advice would be the same?
"Opps, wanted to add; wasn't there a study about how really smart people lead shitty lives socially? I vaguely remember something about it, so correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather let the new Newton or new Tesla lead a better life than have him have a shitty one and come up with apple powered death rays."
-Knife, in here
-Knife, in here
Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
I don't see anything wrong with her advice. It's a course of action that might give people a lifetime of happiness, if it works out. Whether it's the most common course of action these days or not doesn't matter, and doesn't make it automatically wrong. She's just saying, 'don't forget that getting married is probably something you're going to want to do, and it's probably a good idea to get a jump start on that instead of waiting, and as a Princton alumna like you will be my advice is your fellow alumni are the best group of people to marry.'
She married a guy who didn't go to Princeton and she didn't have a happy ending for her marriage, remember. I can see where she's coming from.
She married a guy who didn't go to Princeton and she didn't have a happy ending for her marriage, remember. I can see where she's coming from.
∞
XXXI
Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
If Princeton is all it's cracked up to be, she ought to know better than to confuse correlation and causation.Phantasee wrote:She married a guy who didn't go to Princeton and she didn't have a happy ending for her marriage, remember. I can see where she's coming from.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
The guys who go to Princeton are unusually likely to be responsible, smart, and good at something that makes them employable. And nobody, of either sex, wants the problems of dealing with an irresponsible or foolish or unemployable spouse.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
If you can't see all the ways sexist double standards pop up in her advice, or how her advice feeds into and promotes destructive sexist assumptions, or how it's also steeped in heteronormativity and just outright weird assumptions (smart women CANNOT EVER love a man who isn't smarter than she is, or at least a tie? men can love younger women but not the reverse?), then there's something wrong. It may have been alright if she had given it in the format of "this is what I wish someone had told me earlier, and though it doesn't fit everyone here, it may help some of you to hear it from someone", but instead it was given as advice to everyone there, because apparently as women, the thing most important ever is what man they will find.Phantasee wrote:I don't see anything wrong with her advice. It's a course of action that might give people a lifetime of happiness, if it works out. Whether it's the most common course of action these days or not doesn't matter, and doesn't make it automatically wrong. She's just saying, 'don't forget that getting married is probably something you're going to want to do, and it's probably a good idea to get a jump start on that instead of waiting, and as a Princton alumna like you will be my advice is your fellow alumni are the best group of people to marry.'
She married a guy who didn't go to Princeton and she didn't have a happy ending for her marriage, remember. I can see where she's coming from.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
There is nothing in there to be offended by.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
One thing I find issue with the cultural belief of some of having to find a man your equal or superior financially. It sounds like gold digging and just there for bragging rights.
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Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Although the current approach to working motherhood in the US encourages that: if a married couple has a child, the wife's career probably ends up on the rocks but the husband's probably doesn't. Exceptions are rare enough that women have no incentive to plan on getting to be one of them.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
There's a grain of truth in it, though. The whole "man = primary breadwinner" thing is pretty deeply ingrained in most human cultures, so a lot of guys end up feeling threatened, emasculated or just plain jealous.ArmorPierce wrote:One thing I find issue with the cultural belief of some of having to find a man your equal or superior financially. It sounds like gold digging and just there for bragging rights.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
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-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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- Arthur_Tuxedo
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Too many people seem to be assuming that the letter writer prescribed that everyone should behave according to biological tendencies and traditional gender roles, rather than merely described some of the realities of dating, marriage, and life that young people ignore at their own peril.
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"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
The "realities" of dating, such as "a woman's happiness is due to her man", "women can't date younger men, but men can date younger women", "women can only be happy with a man who's her intellectual superior"? Or is there something even more profound in there I missed?
Edit: Also, "biological tendencies" and gender roles tend to have significantly less overlap than most cultural conservatives would like one to believe.
Edit: Also, "biological tendencies" and gender roles tend to have significantly less overlap than most cultural conservatives would like one to believe.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Well assuming that those are values that the woman does hold, and there are many that do, ignoring marriage and kids until they are pushing 40 and they are hitting their biological clock will be an issue.Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:The "realities" of dating, such as "a woman's happiness is due to her man", "women can't date younger men, but men can date younger women", "women can only be happy with a man who's her intellectual superior"? Or is there something even more profound in there I missed?
Edit: Also, "biological tendencies" and gender roles tend to have significantly less overlap than most cultural conservatives would like one to believe.
I didn't actually bother to read the article just skimmed through it. Did she say that it is her belief that this is what every woman should do or is she only addressing women who hold those values?
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To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
The general tone is that it's advice for every woman attending Princeton, there's no indication that it's only meant for a few, and this line kind of seals the idea that she thinks this is universal:
Again, it wouldn't have been much of an issue if it had been in the sense of advice you probably don't hear, that some might find helpful, so here's this chance to say it. But by putting it out as advice every woman there needs to hear and heed, that's the issue.
She also says at one point that "you" in the sense of her audience wants this advice specifically.For most of you, the cornerstone of your future and happiness will be inextricably linked to the man you marry, and you will never again have this concentration of men who are worthy of you.
Again, it wouldn't have been much of an issue if it had been in the sense of advice you probably don't hear, that some might find helpful, so here's this chance to say it. But by putting it out as advice every woman there needs to hear and heed, that's the issue.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
You know...
It is very much possible to be your own person, with your own personal goals and ambitions. And to still have your happiness be totally tied up in who you have a relationship with, and whether you marry them, and how that marriage goes.
Just because I want to be (say) a doctor, and achieve that goal, doesn't mean I can still be happy if I enter a truly unhappy marriage. Conversely, I might totally fail that goal, do something entirely different, and still be happy if I have a family to be happy with. Life is funny like that.
Sure, there are a minority of people who aren't interested in relationships at all, and a larger minority who intend to remain single their whole lives. But most people eventually want to settle down, and would be wise to at least take a moment to think about how they achieve that goal, whether they want to start working on it sooner or later, and so on.
Does that mean she's right to basically say "girls at Princeton, subordinate all other concerns to finding a man while you're at Princeton!" No, it does not. But I do think modern society pressures people very hard to point themselves the other way: to build up credentials and career experience for years and years, while postponing the family-life side of existence indefinitely. For women this is particularly harsh because of the biological clock.
But it's a problem for men too, and there's not much relief in sight- because to have a family you almost have to have some basic degree of economic stability in your life, and fewer and fewer people can count on that.
It is very much possible to be your own person, with your own personal goals and ambitions. And to still have your happiness be totally tied up in who you have a relationship with, and whether you marry them, and how that marriage goes.
Just because I want to be (say) a doctor, and achieve that goal, doesn't mean I can still be happy if I enter a truly unhappy marriage. Conversely, I might totally fail that goal, do something entirely different, and still be happy if I have a family to be happy with. Life is funny like that.
Sure, there are a minority of people who aren't interested in relationships at all, and a larger minority who intend to remain single their whole lives. But most people eventually want to settle down, and would be wise to at least take a moment to think about how they achieve that goal, whether they want to start working on it sooner or later, and so on.
Does that mean she's right to basically say "girls at Princeton, subordinate all other concerns to finding a man while you're at Princeton!" No, it does not. But I do think modern society pressures people very hard to point themselves the other way: to build up credentials and career experience for years and years, while postponing the family-life side of existence indefinitely. For women this is particularly harsh because of the biological clock.
But it's a problem for men too, and there's not much relief in sight- because to have a family you almost have to have some basic degree of economic stability in your life, and fewer and fewer people can count on that.
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Amusingly, I remember some advice I heard (directed at men) that to have a better chance at a happy life, marry a woman who's more intelligent than you.
The reasoning went that (statistically) the husband's emotional state largely depended upon the wife's. If she was happy, he was happy; if she was upset, he was upset; and a more intelligent, successful, wife was more likely to be happy.
Obviously, I wont support or attack these assumptions and conclusions, but I will observe that at least part of it is very true of myself. Very little in this world can upset me, except my wife's emotional state.
When it comes to starting a family, though, I would personally advise women to start as early as they feel they can. Biology can be a bitch, and anyway, do you really want to be chasing after teenagers when you're on the wrong side of 50?
The reasoning went that (statistically) the husband's emotional state largely depended upon the wife's. If she was happy, he was happy; if she was upset, he was upset; and a more intelligent, successful, wife was more likely to be happy.
Obviously, I wont support or attack these assumptions and conclusions, but I will observe that at least part of it is very true of myself. Very little in this world can upset me, except my wife's emotional state.
When it comes to starting a family, though, I would personally advise women to start as early as they feel they can. Biology can be a bitch, and anyway, do you really want to be chasing after teenagers when you're on the wrong side of 50?
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
'hey heteronormative people that constitute the majority of the population, this is a thing that will probably affect most of you, by the way, this current concentration of men who are effectively your equals? hard to find after college'Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:The general tone is that it's advice for every woman attending Princeton, there's no indication that it's only meant for a few, and this line kind of seals the idea that she thinks this is universal:She also says at one point that "you" in the sense of her audience wants this advice specifically.For most of you, the cornerstone of your future and happiness will be inextricably linked to the man you marry, and you will never again have this concentration of men who are worthy of you.
Again, it wouldn't have been much of an issue if it had been in the sense of advice you probably don't hear, that some might find helpful, so here's this chance to say it. But by putting it out as advice every woman there needs to hear and heed, that's the issue.
seriously she even says 'for most of you'
i don't know how much more inclusive she needs to be, really, most people don't even know what the fuck heteronormative means, nor do they care
i'm sorry she doesn't subscribe to your newsletter?
∞
XXXI
Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
Given how many professional women I've interacted with who experience the problem of modern post-college dating horror, I'm not hugely surprised people offer advice like this. If she'd said 'don't concentrate on study so much you graduate and burn out your best years building a career and realise at 40 you're lonely' would people worry so much?
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Re: Advice to Female Ivy students: Get a husband
I don't think I would. I think its more the tone of "Ivy graduates>every other person ever" that you can find in the letter.Given how many professional women I've interacted with who experience the problem of modern post-college dating horror, I'm not hugely surprised people offer advice like this. If she'd said 'don't concentrate on study so much you graduate and burn out your best years building a career and realise at 40 you're lonely' would people worry so much?
I went to a pretty well-respected liberal arts college (it isn't Franklin & Marshall or Bowdoin but its similar), not Princeton but well-regarded. There remains an extremely snobbish remnant at those schools and the Ivy League schools, especially in certain social groups, that the fortunate few who attend our wonderful elite institutions are superior to the plebs who are stranded on the outside.
I love my alma mater, but I fucking hate that attitude, and it is so recognizable in this letter. God forbid you marry beneath your station by wedding a Rutgers graduate. People who haven't had to be around this particular form of sneering condescension might not recognize what she's doing right away, but I can see it. This letter isn't about the (very worthy) idea of taking advantage of being surrounded by single people in college to form a relationship, its about elitism (and not the meritocratic kind, but the kind that judges your whole worth on your alma mater, and perhaps the dining clubs you belonged to while you were there).
Not that all Ivy graduates think and act that way (or that all NESCAC schools or Centennial Conference schools) think that way, but those people are around and I hate them with a burning passion.
Can you get a damn good education at Princeton? Absolutely. But you can get a similarly superb education at Rutgers, and the stamp on your transcript reading Princeton instead of Penn State or Williams instead of UMass makes you superior in no way.