The North Carolina GOP wants to establish a religion

[SystemError]

"Freedom" is only the freedom to be oppressed by people closer to home.

http://www.wral.com/proposal-would-allo ... /12296876/

A bill filed by Republican lawmakers would allow North Carolina to declare an official religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Bill of Rights, and seeks to nullify any federal ruling against Christian prayer by public bodies statewide.

...

House Bill 494, filed by Republican Rowan County Reps. Harry Warren and Carl Ford, would refuse to acknowledge the force of any judicial ruling on prayer in North Carolina – or indeed on any Constitutional topic:

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states. "Each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion."

[ChaserGrey]

*facepalm*

You know, when I saw the thread title I thought it would be about the local party trying to incorporate as a religion for some reason. This is worse. The stupid, it burns.

[TimothyC]

From what I remember of my constitutional history, the argument against stupid like this would be the 14th amendment, which should kill this dead. Doesn't change how stupid the people are being however.

[DieselJester]

-sigh- it's days like this when I question why the hell I even bother to declare myself a Christian in any aspect when there are people out there doing stuff like this...

The exact wording of lines 1-8 of SC House Bill 494:

A JOINT RESOLUTION TO PROCLAIM THE ROWAN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA, DEFENSE OF RELIGION ACT OF 2013.
Whereas, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States reads:"…Congress shall make no law respecting an Establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…"; and
Whereas, this prohibition does not apply to states, municipalities, or schools; and
Whereas, in recent times, the federal judiciary has incorporated states, municipalities, and schools into the Establishment Clause prohibitions on Congress; and
Whereas, the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads: "The 9powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and
Whereas, the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States prohibits the federal government and prohibits the federal courts from expanding the powers of the federal government beyond those powers which are explicitly enumerated; and...

...yap yap yap. It looks like they're aiming for the loophole in the Bill of Rights where it says "Congress" and only Congress, thinking that that allows the States to do whatever they want to in regards to making laws regarding religion. Probably that whole "Don't tread on me" mindset. If this passes, I think that it'd go to Supreme Court review of the Free Exercise Clause as cases like this have done before.

But I do think that you're right TimothyC, I think that the 14th Amendement would shoot it down. Who knows how long it will take before that takes effect though.

[Flagg]

This would be funnier if the Republican party got sued by the state to cover the legal bills.

[Simon_Jester]

The red state legislatures have been pretty quiet lately; I'm sure it's time for another round of unconstitutional stupidity now that the immediate public attention over the ongoing budget train wreck has faded.

[Broomstick]

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states. "Each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion."

No, you fucking morons, it gives the Supreme Court of the United States the power to determine what is and isn't constitutional, not the states and not the people. And no, every state in the union is NOT sovereign, we fought a war over that in the 1800's and your side lost.

[Ahriman238]

Ass-backwards Republicans misunderstand almost every point of the Sacred Document penned by the Unimpeachable Founders they constantly invoke as an authority.

News at eleven.

[Silver Jedi]

Republican North Carolina state legislators have proposed allowing an official state religion in a measure that would declare the state exempt from the Constitution and court rulings.

The bill, filed Monday by two GOP lawmakers from Rowan County and backed by nine other Republicans, says each state "is sovereign" and courts cannot block a state "from making laws respecting an establishment of religion." The legislation was filed in response to a lawsuit to stop county commissioners in Rowan County from opening meetings with a Christian prayer, wral.com reported.

The religion bill comes as some Republican-led states seek to separate themselves from the federal government, primarily on the issues of guns and Obamacare. This includes a proposal in Mississippi to establish a state board with the power to nullify federal laws.

The North Carolina bill's main sponsors, state Reps. Carl Ford (R-China Grove) and Harry Warren (R-Salisbury), could not be reached for comment on Tuesday, The Salisbury Post reported. Co-sponsors include House Majority Leader Edgar Starnes (R-Hickory). Another is state Rep. Larry Pittman (R-Concord), who in February introduced a state constitutional amendment that would allow for carrying concealed weapons to fight federal "tyranny."

The bill says the First Amendment only applies to the federal government and does not stop state governments, local governments and school districts from adopting measures that defy the Constitution. The legislation also says that the Tenth Amendment, which says powers not reserved for the federal government belong to the states, prohibits court rulings that would seek to apply the First Amendment to state and local officials.

SECTION 1. The North Carolina General Assembly asserts that the Constitution of the United States of America does not prohibit states or their subsidiaries from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

SECTION 2. The North Carolina General Assembly does not recognize federal court rulings which prohibit and otherwise regulate the State of North Carolina, its public schools, or any political subdivisions of the State from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

The North Carolina state constitution disqualifies those who do not believe in God from public office. The provision has been unenforcible since the 1961 Supreme Court decision in Torcaso v. Watkins, which prohibited such bans.

What the actual fuck? Is there a game plan here other than trying and failing nobly in front of the slack-jawed constituency? I thought the legal concepts they're resting their arguments on had all been proved invalid in court years ago. And all so that elected officials can pray at meetings.

EDIT: damn, someone beat me to it! Could a friendly mod please lock?

[Edi]

Topics merged.

[Rogue 9]

SECTION 1. The North Carolina General Assembly asserts that the Constitution of the United States of America does not prohibit states or their subsidiaries from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

The North Carolina General Assembly asserts incorrectly.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

... No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States...

Of course we all know this already, but having the citation to hand is generally beneficial.

[Terralthra]

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states. "Each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion."

No, you fucking morons, it gives the Supreme Court of the United States the power to determine what is and isn't constitutional, not the states and not the people. And no, every state in the union is NOT sovereign, we fought a war over that in the 1800's and your side lost.

It doesn't, actually. Nowhere in the Constitution does it outright say "the Supreme Court shall decide if laws are constitutional." The Supreme Court decided in Marbury v. Madison that they had that power. The doctrine of judicial review was widely practiced and accepted before that, but it is not explicit.

[lPeregrine]

What the actual fuck? Is there a game plan here other than trying and failing nobly in front of the slack-jawed constituency?

NC has for a long time been dominated by the democrats (at the state level). The republicans finally got a majority in the state legislature in 2010, but had a democrat as a governor to veto the worst of their stuff. In 2012 we got a republican governor, so now the republican party has the ability to pass pretty much anything they want. And so now they're going right down the checklist of republican fantasy land: cuts to "liberal" universities, redistricting and limits on early/college voting to give themselves a permanent majority, etc. Expect to see NC making frequent appearances in "republicans are horrible" news over the next couple years, seeing a new horrible bill proposed (and likely to pass) is a daily event here.

[Dalton]

North Carolina joins Arizona and Kentucky in the latest Crazy Red State Bullshit listings.

[Ahriman238]

What the actual fuck? Is there a game plan here other than trying and failing nobly in front of the slack-jawed constituency? I thought the legal concepts they're resting their arguments on had all been proved invalid in court years ago. And all so that elected officials can pray at meetings.

On reflection, it's possible this is meant to be disputed and brought before the supreme court, so they'd have a forum and an opportunity to challenge the 14th Amendment Inclusion Clause. Unless they have something damned impressive in mind, it's a wasted effort though.

Then again, it's both possible and likely that I'm giving the North Carolina GOP too much credit.

[KrauserKrauser]

So this is what the death throes of religion looks like.

Disturbing.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It seems to me like the real big deal here is that the bill essentially claims that Marbury vs. Madison was itself an unconstitutional usurption of power by the Supreme Court.

[Simon_Jester]

If this were being advanced as a serious argument by someone with a more respectable position than "but I want to have an established church!" when North Carolina was one of the founding states that explicitly had a hand in negotiating the First Amendment in the first place...

...well. I'd at least be willing to talk about the constitutional role of the Supreme Court, along with tons of other issues about the way American government works. But when it's coming from the kind of deep ignorance and arrogance and desire to permanently lock in one's own social model as the law of the land, I have no respect for it.

[DieselJester]

I'd probably be for the bill if it were to allow all prayer in schools and whatever, not just Christian Prayer. But that's what it looks like NC is trying to do; forcibly promoting Christianity as the established and formal religion of the state, effectively banning all other religions.

It reminds me of a post a (former) college friend of mine put up and I called him out on it (I can't pull it up anymore to put it here verbatim, but I'll do my best:

Him: Click "Like" to have students recite the Lord's Prayer in Public School.

Me: What of those who are being raised Muslim? Or Wiccan? Or Atheist?

Him: Well, they can just go to Private School then.

Me: No they can't and I'll tell you why; not everyone can afford private school and if you exclude any one member from public school then it isn't a public school anymore, is it?

Him: <Unfriended Me>

[CaiusWickersham]

It doesn't, actually. Nowhere in the Constitution does it outright say "the Supreme Court shall decide if laws are constitutional." The Supreme Court decided in Marbury v. Madison that they had that power. The doctrine of judicial review was widely practiced and accepted before that, but it is not explicit.

No, Marbury was the first time the Supreme Court reviewed an executive act that was part of the pissing match between the Federalists and Democratic-Republican parties. The power of judicial review had always been assumed in the colonies (including North Carolina) and was accepted during the Constitution's ratification.

Also, there was a time when the states had established churches. Madison hoped that movement of citizens between the states would eventually lead to their disestablishment as the states accepted the notion of freedom of conscience and the "we won't stop you" attitude of the Establishment Clause.

[Scrib]

I'd probably be for the bill if it were to allow all prayer in schools and whatever, not just Christian Prayer. But that's what it looks like NC is trying to do; forcibly promoting Christianity as the established and formal religion of the state, effectively banning all other religions.

It reminds me of a post a (former) college friend of mine put up and I called him out on it (I can't pull it up anymore to put it here verbatim, but I'll do my best:

Him: Click "Like" to have students recite the Lord's Prayer in Public School.

Me: What of those who are being raised Muslim? Or Wiccan? Or Atheist?

Him: Well, they can just go to Private School then.

Me: No they can't and I'll tell you why; not everyone can afford private school and if you exclude any one member from public school then it isn't a public school anymore, is it?

Him: <Unfriended Me>

What about heretical Christians and Goddess worship and other offshoots? You can never account for everyone, there are a thousand specific breeds with their own beliefs and idiosyncrasies. Much easier to ban them all.

[Simon_Jester]

Personally, I think anyone should be allowed to pray in school as long as they're not disruptive (no incense candles, etc.) But teachers shouldn't be leading mass prayers; that is not in our job description.

Also, there was a time when the states had established churches. Madison hoped that movement of citizens between the states would eventually lead to their disestablishment as the states accepted the notion of freedom of conscience and the "we won't stop you" attitude of the Establishment Clause.

There was also a time when the states only allowed people who met a property requirement to vote; the times, they are a-changing.

[AMT]

North Carolina joins Arizona and Kentucky in the latest Crazy Red State Bullshit listings.

Kentucky? Oh god. What did we do this time?

[Dalton]

Look up the Religious Freedom Act.

[AMT]

Look up the Religious Freedom Act.

Oh yeah. That. I've been trying to ignore that.