Potential Terrorist Attack In SE London

[Admiral Valdemar]

Happened this afternoon, a man in his twenties with a Help The Heroes t-shirt (allegedly), was attacked by supposed Muslim men, first by a car impact, then hacking with various blades to the point of decapitating the man, just outside a barracks.

There is a COBRA meeting about this right now with the PM in conference and the Home and Defence Secretaries.

Link to ongoing BBC News story

[EnterpriseSovereign]

According to witnesses and videos a couple of black guys did it Apparently they were shot by the cops before being arrested.

[The Xeelee]

One thing I couldn't understand is how people seemed to be just walking by in the video.

[dragon]

they are afraid to get involved or perhaps apathetic

[Simon_Jester]

Any evidence that this was actual terrorism, as opposed to just being some kind of criminal or gang activity?

[Dartzap]

Any evidence that this was actual terrorism, as opposed to just being some kind of criminal or gang activity?

Yep, it's definitely an attack by some Muslim extremists. Small scale by the more recent standard, but terror inducing nonetheless.

[UnderAGreySky]

Any evidence that this was actual terrorism, as opposed to just being some kind of criminal or gang activity?

They have been captured on video saying this was in response to British military interventions abroad, using words like "Allah" and phrases like "an eye for an eye". But from everything it sounds like they were deranged, too, maybe pumped up with drugs or something.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry, I reacted instinctively to the initial post before clicking the link.

I get really stupid sometimes.


In the US, I could actually imagine a high profile criminal attack being labeled as "terrorism" if, say, the killers avowed Islamic beliefs even if they didn't make it some kind of political manifesto.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah we might, unless its a muslim in the US Army behind it, in which case the present administration will bend over backwards to call it anything else and deny crippled men benefits in the process.

[Zaune]

I suppose it might also have been someone who'd had a close relative get shot dead by the British Army out there.

[Broomstick]

The TV news tonight showed a bit of video - apparently these guys, with big knives and bloody hands who had just killed a guy told bystanders to video them, at least a couple did so - and whether or not these guys are part of a larger organization or not they most certainly did put a Muslim twist on this and swore to never stop fighting.

When the cops showed up there was reportedly a firefight with the attackers now in the hospital.

[Kojiro]

The TV news tonight showed a bit of video - apparently these guys, with big knives and bloody hands who had just killed a guy told bystanders to video them, at least a couple did so

I've seen that larger clip. It's so disturbing to see a man casually talking to a camera while the man he just killed is in the background. An no one is even approaching the body to see if he's ok. Maybe from the angle it was clear to them he was dead, I don't know.

One thing that was interesting was that there's a car in the shot that has clearly crashed no more than 3-4 meters from the victim and some reports are saying the attack started with the car while the victim was out walking. Were they driving around looking for a target or lying in wait for this particular guy? It's rather terrifying that they might just ram you with a car then get out and stab you to death. But then I suppose that's the point of terrorism.

[Broomstick]

Reports are the victim was decapitated - if that's the case and the detachment was obvious no one needed to get closer to check on him. I mean, really, if some guy with hands painted red with blood, waving a knife, is standing there above an obviously dead guy my first impulse wouldn't be to get closer.

[cosmicalstorm]

I would also stay clear even if the guy was still alive. Hand to hand combat with a person armed with a knife and pumped up on drugs, insanity or both is a very hazardous action. I believe that even if you have a handgun in your holster, a man with a knife can attack and kill you before you are able to fire even if you approach from a distance.

[Simon_Jester]

Depending on the distance- look at it this way. To deliver a painful, perhaps incapacitating blow with a knife the knifeman has to walk X steps and swing his arm. To draw and fire a pistol accurately, the gunman has to (probably) unseal a container at his belt, pull an irregular-shaped object from the container, raise it to eye level, aim, and twitch a finger.

Obviously, which set of actions can be performed first depends on X, and how much practice each man has at the set of actions he's going to take.

[Patroklos]

According to NPR this morning the attackers were keeping all men away but would allow women to approach them and the body. One women apparently confronted one of the attackers looking to rant and berated him.

The car crash is from the attackers jumping out to assault their target whithout properly securing the vehicle apparently. If I had to guess they were just driving around close to the military barracks looking for the first easy target.

[Irbis]

Depending on the distance- look at it this way. To deliver a painful, perhaps incapacitating blow with a knife the knifeman has to walk X steps and swing his arm. To draw and fire a pistol accurately, the gunman has to (probably) unseal a container at his belt, pull an irregular-shaped object from the container, raise it to eye level, aim, and twitch a finger.

Obviously, which set of actions can be performed first depends on X, and how much practice each man has at the set of actions he's going to take.

Moreover - even if X allows you to draw the pistol and fire, drugged man with a knife can still stab you even with mortal wound already inflicted. Safe X might well be outside effective pistol range if the man with a knife notices you and starts running.

[LaCroix]

Depending on the distance- look at it this way. To deliver a painful, perhaps incapacitating blow with a knife the knifeman has to walk X steps and swing his arm. To draw and fire a pistol accurately, the gunman has to (probably) unseal a container at his belt, pull an irregular-shaped object from the container, raise it to eye level, aim, and twitch a finger.

Obviously, which set of actions can be performed first depends on X, and how much practice each man has at the set of actions he's going to take.

Mythbusters empirically tested that this distance was shy less than 20 feet if you were expecting someone coming at you.

[Admiral Valdemar]

According to NPR this morning the attackers were keeping all men away but would allow women to approach them and the body. One women apparently confronted one of the attackers looking to rant and berated him.

The car crash is from the attackers jumping out to assault their target whithout properly securing the vehicle apparently. If I had to guess they were just driving around close to the military barracks looking for the first easy target.

She was a Scout leader and there's photos of her standing just a metre away from a guy with blood all over himself and brandishing a knife. She was basically trying to reason with him, and the guy was totally calm and coherent.

[mr friendly guy]

TYT reports that the victim is a soldier. Anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does it count as a military target?

[Admiral Valdemar]

He was a drummer/machinegunner for 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which is descended from the Lancashire Fusiliers who are local to where I grew up. He was apparently returning from a day at the local AFCO (recruitment office) when the attack happened outside the barracks in Woolwich, SE London.

[Korto]

If the victim was military, then it's not terrorism. Not unless we want the word to lose the last shreds of any meaning it has.

I do believe it's still a war crime, as the perpetrators weren't wearing any kind of markings to distinguish them from civilians. Assuming they don't just call it plain, everyday murder (one for the lawyers).

[energiewende]

Although I've not seen it mentioned anywhere, the biggest worry must be that the citizen muslim population will begin to sustain a few hundred or few thousand men conducting indefinite low-level warfare against the general population in the style of the IRA. This attack, while much smaller and less deadly than those that went before, is a step in that direction. Notice that the men did not kill themselves in the attack, nor did they attack bystanders in the 20 minutes they spent waiting for the police to arrive. Their intention seems to have been to cause a general sense of fear and have a political message widely distributed rather than just to kill as many people as possible. This substantially different from suicide bombing which has a much higher demand of time, resources and intelligence of the perpetrators and is naturally self-limiting. Maybe if they are 'lucky' then they like IRA murderers will be released from prison in a few years in a political deal.

[Zaune]

Actually, at this point I'm more worried about people like you taking what appears to be the actions of two random nutjobs to be a sign of impending doom and catastrophe and we must therefore... Actually, I don't know what you think we ought to be doing to the "citizen Muslim" population because of this, and I don't particularly want to know either.

[energiewende]

^ that is probably why it is not mentioned anywhere else.

While I do not agree with the views they expressed in calm, reasoned debate with numerous bystanders while waiting 20 minutes for the police to arrive, they were not any more "nutjobs" than any vox pop interviewee or Question Time audience member. The man does not even raise his voice. Like Irish nationalism, Islamism is an honestly held belief that to many adherents justifies killing on more or less rational terms. Most sympathisers won't actually commit violent acts just as most Irish nationalists did not join the IRA, but out of a population of millions of potential members it only takes a few thousand active volunteers at a time to wage a continuous insurgency.

So what do I want to do to the citizen muslim population? Well, the only answer is nothing at all, just as we did not deport the Irish catholic population of Northern Ireland into the Republic (and that was much more feasible than deporting second generation British muslims to Pakistan or Bangladesh). What we can do is promote a similar cultural agnosticisation campaign to that which has already effectively neutered political Christianity in the UK.