Private Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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Private Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Thanas »

From the Guardian liveblog:
At 10.15am, running a little later than scheduled, the military judge presiding over the court martial, Colonel Denise Lind, walked into the courtroom. After dealing with some court admin, she said:

"Members of the gallery I will now announce the sentence. I will ask that you maintain decorum, as you have during these proceedings." She told the public gallery that anyone who interrupted proceedings would then be escorted from court.

As it turned out, the sentence was read out too quickly for anyone to respond. The colonel said Manning would reduced in grade, to the rank of private E1, forfeit pay and allowances, and be dishonourably discharged. The she said he would be sentenced to 35 years.

The soldier appeared not show any emotional reaction. A reporter in the public gallery said when the sentence was read out, there were gasps among spectators, and one woman clasped her hands over her head.

After judge left the courtroom, Manning was very quickly ushered out the room by guards. A handful of supporters shouted "we'll keep fighting for you Bradley" and "you're our hero".
Worst figure of the Abu Ghraib scandal, who tortured people to death: 10 years, six served.
Leaking information on US abuses: 35 years in prison, with at least 12 having to be served.

Glad the US got its priorities straight.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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If people voted for someone who isn't a complete douchebag in 2016, could a presidential pardon get him out?
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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Grumman wrote:If people voted for someone who isn't a complete douchebag in 2016, could a presidential pardon get him out?
Like who? The likely Democrat candidate is going to be Hillary who was directly embarassed by the scandal, and I can't imagine any of the Republican candidates handing out a pardon, even if they enjoyed the black eye it gave the Obama administration.

I guess there is always third party :lol:

The idea that he was just going to be "let go" was never realistic to begin with. But it also seems like a rather excessive sentence. I was expecting something more along lines of 10 years (with credit for time served).
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by K. A. Pital »

Indeed. And just to think that they were calling for 60 years in prison.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by The Vortex Empire »

His life destroyed for exposing war crimes while those who committed them get slaps on the wrist. Disgusting.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Lord MJ »

Some military/former military people I know are saying "he got off to easy."

Even if I agreed what he did was totally wrong, how is 35 yrs, or even half that "Getting off too easy..."
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

I would hope years of torture would count more than 1:1 for time served but I somehow doubt this will end up being the case. From what I've heard it's likely that Manning will get out after less than half the sentence, but there's no guarantees there.

Also, it would be a lot better if people would use gender neutral terminology here. While there is conflicting information on how Manning wishes to be referred to, at the very least it has been made clear that they aren't comfortable with masculine pronouns or the name "Bradley".
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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moglwi wrote:O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
Are you a fucking moron who can't spell and is trolling or are you just a fucking moron who can't spell for shit?
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by moglwi »

No I am asking a perfutly valid question what WAR CRIME did PFC Manning prove happened with the info that he has leaked? My ablity to spell or lack of it dose not mean that this question dose need to be aswerd by people making the claim.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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moglwi wrote:No I am asking a perfutly valid question what WAR CRIME did PFC Manning prove happened with the info that he has leaked? My ablity to spell or lack of it dose not mean that this question dose need to be aswerd by people making the claim.
The question indicates such a profound ignorance that it's hard to believe you aren't trolling.
The Guardian wrote:A grim picture of the US and Britain's legacy in Iraq has been revealed in a massive leak of American military documents that detail torture, summary executions and war crimes.

Almost 400,000 secret US army field reports have been passed to the Guardian and a number of other international media organisations via the whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

The electronic archive is believed to emanate from the same dissident US army intelligence analyst who earlier this year is alleged to have leaked a smaller tranche of 90,000 logs chronicling bloody encounters and civilian killings in the Afghan war.

The new logs detail how:

• US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

• A US helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

• More than 15,000 civilians died in previously unknown incidents. US and UK officials have insisted that no official record of civilian casualties exists but the logs record 66,081 non-combatant deaths out of a total of 109,000 fatalities.

The numerous reports of detainee abuse, often supported by medical evidence, describe prisoners shackled, blindfolded and hung by wrists or ankles, and subjected to whipping, punching, kicking or electric shocks. Six reports end with a detainee's apparent death.


As recently as December the Americans were passed a video apparently showing Iraqi army officers executing a prisoner in Tal Afar, northern Iraq. The log states: "The footage shows approximately 12 Iraqi army soldiers. Ten IA soldiers were talking to one another while two soldiers held the detainee. The detainee had his hands bound … The footage shows the IA soldiers moving the detainee into the street, pushing him to the ground, punching him and shooting him."

The report named at least one perpetrator and was passed to coalition forces. But the logs reveal that the coalition has a formal policy of ignoring such allegations. They record "no investigation is necessary" and simply pass reports to the same Iraqi units implicated in the violence. By contrast all allegations involving coalition forces are subject to formal inquiries. Some cases of alleged abuse by UK and US troops are also detailed in the logs.

In two Iraqi cases postmortems revealed evidence of death by torture. On 27 August 2009 a US medical officer found "bruises and burns as well as visible injuries to the head, arm, torso, legs and neck" on the body of one man claimed by police to have killed himself. On 3 December 2008 another detainee, said by police to have died of "bad kidneys", was found to have "evidence of some type of unknown surgical procedure on [his] abdomen".

A Pentagon spokesman told the New York Times this week that under its procedure, when reports of Iraqi abuse were received the US military "notifies the responsible government of Iraq agency or ministry for investigation and follow-up".

The logs also illustrate the readiness of US forces to unleash lethal force. In one chilling incident they detail how an Apache helicopter gunship gunned down two men in February 2007.

The suspected insurgents had been trying to surrender but a lawyer back at base told the pilots: "You cannot surrender to an aircraft." The Apache, callsign Crazyhorse 18, was the same unit and helicopter based at Camp Taji outside Baghdad that later that year, in July, mistakenly killed two Reuters employees and wounded two children in the streets of Baghdad.

Iraq Body Count, the London-based group that monitors civilian casualties, says it has identified around 15,000 previously unknown civilian deaths from the data contained in the leaked war logs.

Although US generals have claimed their army does not carry out body counts and British ministers still say no official statistics exist, the war logs show these claims are untrue. The field reports purport to identify all civilian and insurgent casualties, as well as numbers of coalition forces wounded and killed in action. They give a total of more than 109,000 violent deaths from all causes between 2004 and the end of 2009.

This includes 66,081 civilians, 23,984 people classed as "enemy" and 15,196 members of the Iraqi security forces. Another 3,771 dead US and allied soldiers complete the body count.

No fewer than 31,780 of these deaths are attributed to improvised roadside bombs (IEDs) planted by insurgents. The other major recorded tally is of 34,814 victims of sectarian killings, recorded as murders in the logs.

However, the US figures appear to be unreliable in respect of civilian deaths caused by their own military activities. For example, in Falluja, the site of two major urban battles in 2004, no civilian deaths are recorded. Yet Iraq Body Count monitors identified more than 1,200 civilians who died during the fighting.

Phil Shiner, human rights specialist at Public Interest Lawyers, plans to use material from the logs in court to try to force the UK to hold a public inquiry into the unlawful killing of Iraqi civilians.

He also plans to sue the British government over its failure to stop the abuse and torture of detainees by Iraqi forces. The coalition's formal policy of not investigating such allegations is "simply not permissible", he says.

Shiner is already pursuing a series of legal actions for former detainees allegedly killed or tortured by British forces in Iraq.

WikiLeaks says it is posting online the entire set of 400,000 Iraq field reports – in defiance of the Pentagon.

The whistleblowing activists say they have deleted all names from the documents that might result in reprisals. They were accused by the US military of possibly having "blood on their hands" over the previous Afghan release by redacting too few names. But the military recently conceded that no harm had been identified.

Condemning this fresh leak, however, the Pentagon said: "This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed. Our enemies will mine this information looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment."
And that's just from one of the Manning's material releases.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Thanas wrote:
moglwi wrote:O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
Are you a fucking moron who can't spell and is trolling or are you just a fucking moron who can't spell for shit?
Based on my vast and storied experiences with doing it myself, I think he's drunk posting, Thanster.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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Mr. Coffee wrote:
Thanas wrote:
moglwi wrote:O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
Are you a fucking moron who can't spell and is trolling or are you just a fucking moron who can't spell for shit?
Based on my vast and storied experiences with doing it myself, I think he's drunk posting, Thanster.
I bow to your superior experience on this subject matter, good sir. :lol:

moglwi wrote:No I am asking a perfutly valid question what WAR CRIME did PFC Manning prove happened with the info that he has leaked? My ablity to spell or lack of it dose not mean that this question dose need to be aswerd by people making the claim.
And posting Rule 1 of this board does mean you have no place here if you can't write proper English.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by moglwi »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
Thanas wrote:
moglwi wrote:O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
Are you a fucking moron who can't spell and is trolling or are you just a fucking moron who can't spell for shit?
Based on my vast and storied experiences with doing it myself, I think he's drunk posting, Thanster.
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Moglwi, just a little ProTip for you to consider. If you chug a quart of tequila and suddenly a six foot tall purple weasel with a sombrero says you should totally hit the "submit" button on the malformed gibberish you typed up it's never a good idea. In fact, you should just ignore anything the Tequila Weasel tells you to do.
well glad to see no one can aswere the question they just dive straight to insults, Thanos in the doc you posted it was Iraq forces commiting the crimes the US and British forces passed the information ti the Govt they are not responasble for the investigation of Iraq forces. The killing of 2 journolists was not a war crime no matter how much you wish it. so any actual war crimes that PFC Manning has show?
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Terralthra »

I posted that, not Thanas. Jesus, please learn to read.

Also, in that article it lists several issues, among them being that an Apache helicopter (a US military vehicle, piloted by US soldiers) deliberately gunned down two Iraqis attempting to surrender. That, in and of itself, is a war crime.

Also, the US forces did not "pass it to the government," they essentially handed the report of abuse to the unit accused of performing the abuse. That's aiding and abetting, in any practical sense, in those same acts of abuse and violence.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by moglwi »

Terralthra wrote:I posted that, not Thanas. Jesus, please learn to read.

Also, in that article it lists several issues, among them being that an Apache helicopter (a US military vehicle, piloted by US soldiers) deliberately gunned down two Iraqis attempting to surrender. That, in and of itself, is a war crime.

Also, the US forces did not "pass it to the government," they essentially handed the report of abuse to the unit accused of performing the abuse. That's aiding and abetting, in any practical sense, in those same acts of abuse and violence.
I am sure that the lawery how adviced them know the laws of war and if he say they can not surrender to a A/C they can not surrender
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Alyeska »

OK, enough dog piling on moglwi there people. Attack his argument (or lack there of)
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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moglwi wrote:O have since this He exposed war crimes meme everywhere but I have seen nothing that is a war crime in all the stuff he disemminated what war crime did he prove with the realised data who was charged?
I admit that honestly when I first read that, I thought you were asking what crimes Manning had been accused of.
To be charitable, Thanas, I don't see a location on his profile, so it may be that English is a second language (or twenty-second). Or he may have dyslexia, or a US public school education*, or some other mental disability.
Moglwi, find a spelling and grammar checker you like, and use it. When it throws a screaming fit at something you write, listen to it.

I remember some footage of an Apache helicopter gunning down by mistaken identity some camera men. When the pilots saw there were kids on the scene they were gunning down, their only response was "Well, you shouldn't have brought your kids to a war zone" (No, it was a FUCKING CITY STREET!), and then seeing some people trying to render aid to the injured they deliberately gunned them down too. This last act, according to the news showing it, was definitely a war crime, as it was illegal to attack those rendering medical assistance even to the enemy.
Was that from Manning?
As complete speculation, I've heard the US military likes to give their pilots drugs to keep them in the air longer. If the helicopter pilots were drugged, and those drugs could have contributed to the mistakes in identification, could that constitute a crime? I know it would in the civilian world.

Whether or not anyone was charged with a crime has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the information leaked when the accusation being levelled against the US military is one of COVERING UP.
I am sure that the lawery how adviced them know the laws of war and if he say they can not surrender to a A/C they can not surrender
I must admit I can't think how, on a practical level, an aircraft could take prisoners. Unless it had infantry assistance right there at the scene, what's it going to do? Land, and expose itself to everyone with an assault rifle? There's going to be a strict time limit on how long you can even hang around an area before you start feeling invisible RPG cross-hairs crawling all over your back. I'll bow to other's superior knowledge, but I give them a pass on this one.


*This was just a cheap shot for laughs. I know nothing about how good the US school system is.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

A US helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.
Also, in that article it lists several issues, among them being that an Apache helicopter (a US military vehicle, piloted by US soldiers) deliberately gunned down two Iraqis attempting to surrender. That, in and of itself, is a war crime.
Anymore details on this, as in were there ground forces around? I've no military experience or experience with the legalities of war, but I was under the impression that taking prisoners being required was somewhat situational and dependent on a number of factors such as the unit's mission, ROE, etc.. In particular I don't believe an aircraft's crew can be expected or are even capable taking prisoners. That would be the responsibility of any ground based forces present. Also, did this occur after or during an engagement, as I don't believe active combatants are expected to take prisoners. Anyone with more knowledge care to weigh in?

Do we have anymore information on this? I'm assuming the incident is roughly insurgents try to surrender to ground forces and supporting gunship crew decides to gun them down before they're taken into custody. This wasn't a case of someone actually trying to surrender to the gunship crew was it? I'm fairly certain "You cannot surrender to an aircraft." line from the article is true. I ask because if memory serves it is acceptable and legal to kill retreating combatants, albeit distasteful in my eyes, and enemy personnel trying to surrender to the crew of a vehicle incapable taking prisoners may fall into that category. Seriously, anyone with any direct knowledge pleas chime in.

I'm not saying no war crimes have occurred, but if we're going to call a particular incident a war crime, I'd like to know as much about said incident as possible and the specifics of why it is one.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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The surrender part is not that disturbing. Killing kids and laughing about it is.

Or the case where the US even refused to investigate a human rights report alleging its troops had raided a house, tied up the inhabitants (including small children), shot them and then called in an airstrike to hide the evidence.

Or the case where nobody outside the immediate perpetrators were ever charged for the Afghan kill squad.

Or the hundreds of cases where reported abuse were not even investigated.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Ralin »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Also, it would be a lot better if people would use gender neutral terminology here. While there is conflicting information on how Manning wishes to be referred to, at the very least it has been made clear that they aren't comfortable with masculine pronouns or the name "Bradley".
Last I heard Manning has stated through his attorney/people that he wishes to be referred to as 'he' and 'Bradley' in the media.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Grumman »

Korto wrote:
I am sure that the lawery how adviced them know the laws of war and if he say they can not surrender to a A/C they can not surrender
I must admit I can't think how, on a practical level, an aircraft could take prisoners. Unless it had infantry assistance right there at the scene, what's it going to do? Land, and expose itself to everyone with an assault rifle? There's going to be a strict time limit on how long you can even hang around an area before you start feeling invisible RPG cross-hairs crawling all over your back. I'll bow to other's superior knowledge, but I give them a pass on this one.
Worst case scenario, they could just ignore them. It's just two guys, so even if they decide the helicopter must not have seen them and go back to whatever group they came from, this would be far less damaging than establishing a precedent that you'd better fight to the death because the Americans will kill you if you surrender.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

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Thanas wrote:The surrender part is not that disturbing. Killing kids and laughing about it is.

Or the case where the US even refused to investigate a human rights report alleging its troops had raided a house, tied up the inhabitants (including small children), shot them and then called in an airstrike to hide the evidence.

Or the case where nobody outside the immediate perpetrators were ever charged for the Afghan kill squad.

Or the hundreds of cases where reported abuse were not even investigated.
Agreed.

However, that was specifically used as an example of war crimes committed and I would like to hear the argument for that, as to my knowledge that is not such a clear cut case as other occurrences, such as this:
The numerous reports of detainee abuse, often supported by medical evidence, describe prisoners shackled, blindfolded and hung by wrists or ankles, and subjected to whipping, punching, kicking or electric shocks. Six reports end with a detainee's apparent death.
Worst case scenario, they could just ignore them. It's just two guys, so even if they decide the helicopter must not have seen them and go back to whatever group they came from, this would be far less damaging than establishing a precedent that you'd better fight to the death because the Americans will kill you if you surrender.
This I agree with completely, though if someone wants to make a case for why that isn't/shouldn't be the case, then they are by all means free to do so.
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Ralin »

Ralin wrote:
Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Also, it would be a lot better if people would use gender neutral terminology here. While there is conflicting information on how Manning wishes to be referred to, at the very least it has been made clear that they aren't comfortable with masculine pronouns or the name "Bradley".
Last I heard Manning has stated through his attorney/people that he wishes to be referred to as 'he' and 'Bradley' in the media.
To elaborate, this is what I read: http://www.bradleymanning.org/news/femi ... ey-manning
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Re: Bradley Manning sentenced to 35 years in prison

Post by Korto »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:
Worst case scenario, they could just ignore them. It's just two guys, so even if they decide the helicopter must not have seen them and go back to whatever group they came from, this would be far less damaging than establishing a precedent that you'd better fight to the death because the Americans will kill you if you surrender.
This I agree with completely, though if someone wants to make a case for why that isn't/shouldn't be the case, then they are by all means free to do so.
What about because, when it comes to precedent-setting, "We'll let you go if you surrender to a helicopter" has to be right up there with the all-time stupid ones?
"I see two guys with an RPG... Aw shit! They've seen me and surrendered. Now I gotta let them go"
"Five men in ambush position at the bridge, rifles and grenades. Bugger! They've seen me and surrendered. Now I gotta let them go"
"The infiltrator who stole our operation plans is in a car in my sights. Hang on, he's stopped. He's got on his car and surrendered. Damn! Now I've got to let him go"

A possible result of this could be pilots shooting as quickly as possible upon first sight, leading to even more mistaken killings. Also, as soon as the helicopter does start shooting, everyone will drop weapons and raise hands. And then the chopper lets them go?
This is war, not a game. It's nice to take prisoners, and you should if it is practical, but if you can't you don't have to let them go.
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