India to execute 4 rapists

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India to execute 4 rapists

Post by mr friendly guy »

Last year there was a case in India which was discussed here about a horrific sex crime where 6 men (1 of them a juvenile) raped a physiotherapy student and assaulted her such that she died despite being transferred to a Singaporean hospital. One of the douchebags took his own life because he was too cowardly to face the consequences of his actions, another got off lightly as he was a juvenile, but now an Indian court has sentenced the other 4 to death.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/14/world ... .html?_r=0

4 Sentenced to Death in Rape Case That Riveted India
By ELLEN BARRY and BETWA SHARMA
Published: September 13, 2013

NEW DELHI — Four men convicted of a brutal gang rape were sentenced Friday to die by hanging, a decision met with grim satisfaction from the victim’s parents and triumphant cheers from the crowd outside the courthouse, where some held up pictures of bodies in nooses.
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A crowd gathered outside the Saket courthouse in New Delhi on Friday.
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The four men – a fruit vendor, a bus attendant, a gym handyman and an unemployed man – were found guilty on Tuesday of raping a young woman on a moving bus last December, penetrating her with a metal rod and inflicting grave internal injuries, then dumping her out on the roadside.

The country was riveted by the story of the woman, who died of her injuries two weeks later, and tens of thousands of people flooded the streets to demand tougher policing and prosecution of sex crimes.

But until the last minute it was unclear whether this would lead to death sentences in a country where liberal and populist impulses have strained against one another for decades, reserving the death sentences for “the rarest of rare cases.” News of the decision was met with a wave of jubilation on the street outside.

“This is the beginning of freedom for Indian women today,” said Raman Deep Kaur, 38, a cosmetologist. “Today we are free, because these men are going to be killed.”

It is far from clear, however, that the four men will be executed in the near future.

India has liberal appeal laws, and death sentences are routinely followed by years of motions to the Supreme Court and the president. Sadashiv Gupta, a defense lawyer for one of the men, said he was confident the sentence would be commuted to life in prison.

“I met with my client and I told him, ‘You are going to get the death penalty, take it in stride and don’t panic,’ ” Mr. Gupta said. “I think he shall not be hanged.”

During the trial, defense attorneys invoked the “rarest of the rare” language laid out in a 1980 Supreme Court decision that overturned a death sentence. One cited the words of Mahatma Gandhi, the leader of India’s independence movement: “God gives life and he alone can take it, not man-made courts.” They also invoked mitigating circumstances, such as young age and poverty of the defendants, or the fact that they had been drinking, undercutting the notion that the crime was premeditated.

But Judge Yogesh Khanna clearly rejected those arguments, saying this crime embodied “the rarest of the rare,” and invoking a larger wave of violence against women.

“In these times when crimes against women are on the rise, the court cannot turn a blind eye to this gruesome act,” he said, according to pool reporters in the courtroom.

At this, one of the defendants, Vinay Sharma, broke down in tears and cried loudly.

After the crime was reported last December, there were immediate cries for execution – including from the victim herself, who before her death told a court official that her attackers “should be burned alive.” Protesters have congregated regularly outside the courthouse, chanting “Hang the rapists,” and on Friday they turned their wrath on the defense attorneys, forcing one to rush from the crowd.

Rosy John, 62, a housewife watching the furor outside the courtroom this week, said her only objection to the death sentence was that it was too humane a punishment.

“After death, they will get freedom,” she said. “They should be tortured and given shocks their whole life. They have made so many people suffer, including their own families.”

Polls show that Indians remain ambivalent about using the death penalty, with 40 percent of respondents saying it should be abolished, according to a survey by CNN, IBN and The Hindu, a respected daily newspaper. Among the vocal opponents of using it in this case were a number of women’s rights groups.

The writer Nilanjana Roy warned that executions would circumvent the more difficult question of why Indian girls and women are so vulnerable to sexual violence, most often at the hands of people they know.

“A base but very human part of me would like them to suffer as much as they made that woman suffer,” she wrote in an editorial in The Hindu, going on to envision the result if convicted rapists were hanged consistently for a year: 10,000 neighbors, shopkeepers, tutors, grandfathers, fathers and brothers.

“I wish I could believe that this sort of mass public execution — if we agreed that this was the way forward — would do more than slake our collective need for vengeance,” Ms. Roy wrote. “But I don’t believe in fairy tales.”

Though there were six men on the bus when the woman was attacked, two were not sentenced on Friday. One defendant, Ram Singh, who was driving the bus at times during the assault, hanged himself with his bedsheet in his Delhi prison cell in March. A second defendant, who has not been named because he is a juvenile, was sentenced last month to three years in a detention center — the heaviest sentence possible in India’s juvenile justice system.

Four of the assailants had grown up in Ravidas camp, a warren of narrow lanes and makeshift houses on a roadside in South Delhi. Neighbors in the camp turned furiously on the defendants during the initial uproar over the rape, saying they had brought shame and dishonor to the community, and, nine months later, some are still livid.

“Only if they get strict punishment will men in the country change,” said Amravati Singh, 35, saying she hoped the defendants never saw Ravidas, or their families, again. But others said their feelings had mellowed during the nine months that have elapsed. Leelavati, 40, said she had known the men since they were children, and they were not as bad as they appeared in the press.

“The punishment should be for the crimes they committed,” she said. “They should not all be beaten with one stick to satisfy the public.”

Malavika Vyawahare contributed reporting.
One of the defendents apparently broke down in tears. Heh heh heh.

The lawyers will appeal using a variety of arguments (which if you think about it, are contradictory) ie we didn't do it and we did it but there are mitigating circumstances eg poverty etc. I wonder how that one works?

Oh, and the human rights crowd will start whining in 3,2,1...
Last edited by LadyTevar on 2013-09-13 06:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

You need a different thread title. They're sentenced, not actually executed yet.

My personal view, in this case I will shed no tears if they are hanged.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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My bad. Can a mod edit the title. Thanks.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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What about the human right of the victim to ride a bus without having her intestines inverted. Oh, right...
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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I am against the death penalty on principle. That said, I expected the verdict to be far more atrocious.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Count me in as one of the "human rights crowd". I must confess that this particular case makes me wish the spanish inquisition could do a number on these poor imitations of human beings, but a guy's gotta stick to his ideals especially in the cases where it is most difficult.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty because people make mistakes, and if the wrong man is executed, then that can never be taken back...
I'm perfectly fine with these pieces of shit never seeing the light of day ever again, though.

Also, no one else finds it disturbing these men are being hanged basicly to slake the the public's thirst for revenge? Hell I'm all for though sentences for rapists, fiften or twenty years are a joke for a crime that scars a person for life! Hell, I would be onboard even for a life sentence! But only if it's consistent! How many of you have the illusion that from now on all the rapists in India are going to swing?

Just to be clear, I'm not defending those sorry wastes of life, they can rot in a deep dark hole for all I care. All I'm saying is they shouldn't be tried in the court of public opinion, be hanged to slake the public's thirst for revenge and that something as important as the epidemic of abuse in India shouldn't be dealt with with a hot head, that almost never produces good results...
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Note that these assholes were not sentenced to death for rape. They were sentenced to death for rape and murder. That last bit has not really gotten a whole lot of mention in the press even though it is the relevant factor.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Scorpion wrote:Count me in as one of the "human rights crowd". I must confess that this particular case makes me wish the spanish inquisition could do a number on these poor imitations of human beings, but a guy's gotta stick to his ideals especially in the cases where it is most difficult.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty because people make mistakes, and if the wrong man is executed, then that can never be taken back...
I'm perfectly fine with these pieces of shit never seeing the light of day ever again, though.

Also, no one else finds it disturbing these men are being hanged basicly to slake the the public's thirst for revenge? Hell I'm all for though sentences for rapists, fiften or twenty years are a joke for a crime that scars a person for life! Hell, I would be onboard even for a life sentence! But only if it's consistent! How many of you have the illusion that from now on all the rapists in India are going to swing?

Just to be clear, I'm not defending those sorry wastes of life, they can rot in a deep dark hole for all I care. All I'm saying is they shouldn't be tried in the court of public opinion, be hanged to slake the public's thirst for revenge and that something as important as the epidemic of abuse in India shouldn't be dealt with with a hot head, that almost never produces good results...
You know, its in threads like this or this where the forum's denizens manage to disappoint me the most. I've seen many of these same people argue against the death penalty on several grounds; but when faced with actual Scum and Villainy that the death penalty is reserved for they revert to the same calls of retribution or clear statements of apathy as the opponents they argue against in death penalty threads. As if there was any kind of murder or rape but the disgusting kind! I suppose they've just never seen what it looks like up close. Hell, I'll admit I don't want to.

And yeah, nice way to poison the well by taking pot shots at the "human rights crowd" before anyone else can mention it. If these threads are only intended to be morbid, circle jerks, or trolls, why bother posting them? If we aren't here to provoke discussion, then its really not news or politics; despite what the News at 11:00 might believe.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Speaking for myself, I try to at least be consistent in my ambiguity. It doesn't bother me that we execute people for heinous crimes. It does bother me when a jurisdiction shows malevolent indifference to the guilt or innocence of the defendant, or has low standards when it comes to what constitutes a fair trial. That, in effect, shows themselves unworthy of the power of high justice in the medieval sense.

At the moment, I'm honestly not sure the death penalty should be banned- what should be banned are asinine court systems that abuse the penalty.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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If you're against the killing of other people, you're against the act of killing other people. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "Oh, well they really deserved it" or "But their culture allows such retribution, so it's okay" excuses. You're either principled, or undecided. Which reminds me of the acid attack woman in Iran and her attacker, but that's another can of worms.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:If you're against the killing of other people, you're against the act of killing other people. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "Oh, well they really deserved it" or "But their culture allows such retribution, so it's okay" excuses. You're either principled, or undecided. Which reminds me of the acid attack woman in Iran and her attacker, but that's another can of worms.
How about "it was a lawful order by the civilian leadership of the nation against the military forces of an enemy nation"?
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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I'm talking in the context of judicial law, but as it happens, I'm against killing in general, unless it is to protect more innocents in historical scenarios such as WWII.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Technically I'm against the death penalty, but only because according to everything I've read on the subject in a practical sense it doesn't work; it doesn't appear to be much of a deterrent, and costs the state even more money than life in prison due to the cost of appeals and whatnot (in the US, at any rate). Morally speaking, there are actions which are simply unforgivable, and if you commit them you lose every right to sympathy and human dignity, and my only concern then is making sure that you cease to be a threat to the rest of us. That, and not being called an "internet tough guy" should I say something hyperbolic about blowtorches and pliers in a moment of passion.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:If you're against the killing of other people, you're against the act of killing other people. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "Oh, well they really deserved it" or "But their culture allows such retribution, so it's okay" excuses. You're either principled, or undecided. Which reminds me of the acid attack woman in Iran and her attacker, but that's another can of worms.
That makes no sense. I mean, I could construct a parallel argument:

"Either you're against the act of taking property, or you're not. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "oh, well we really need to take this money of yours to pay for the government program of the week" and "oh, well I really need to steal your TV to pay for my coke habit" excuses."


Now, the parallel argument is total bullshit and I'm not even trying to say that yours is exactly equivalent. But there's a comparable problem.

From the way you phrase it, killing has to be either always right or always wrong with no possible middle ground. We wouldn't accept that argument for a minute when dealing with most other undesirable acts- like lying or stealing. If someone tried to tell you that lying was always wrong, and that there was no situation where lying could possibly be justified, and that making excuses for lying is pathetic... well, that person clearly has no sense of realism or practicality. Let's be up-front; people lie to each other, and sometimes it is not wrong that they do so.

Likewise, what we call "demanding money with menaces" when I dress up in a ski mask to do it becomes absolutely necessary, I'm quite serious it's a good thing, when public organizations do it for legitimate reasons as part of a law-abiding bureaucracy. Granted that the bureaucracy is still empowered to have its police throw you in jail for refusing to pay... but it's still necessary. It's not wrong.

Likewise, I think it's ridiculous for you to try to assert that killing is automatically always wrong or always acceptable, when nearly all other bad acts are situational in nature- they may be undesirable, but they are not immoral unless some other condition is fulfilled.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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AV is slipping. Talk about a giant black / white fallacy. I thought we outgrew those in the early days when Creationists would still show their faces here.

And in those death penalty threads at least I am consistent with my view.
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Re: India executes 4 rapists

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Borgholio wrote:What about the human right of the victim to ride a bus without having her intestines inverted. Oh, right...
Abstract principles have become more important than the people they are supposed to benefit. Didn't you get the memo? :D
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Please, enlighten me as to whom in this thread or on this board that comment was intended to satirize.

Or am I to conclude that this is just more poison in the well to discourage people from disagreeing with you?
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Formless wrote:Please, enlighten me as to whom in this thread or on this board that comment was intended to satirize.
Sure, as soon as you tell me why you think it was targeted at a specific person on this board as opposed to the human rights crowd who have already complained about the sentence which 2 seconds of google will net you articles where they air their views, such as this one.

Seriously. If I did the same thing for ID, YEC, homeopathy, anti-vaxers do you automatically suspect I would be targeting someone on this board?
Formless wrote: Or am I to conclude that this is just more poison in the well to discourage people from disagreeing with you?
If this is poisoning the well to discourage criticism, it obviously hasn't worked very well has it considering the other times we disagreed.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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So yes, you are Poisoning the Well because you are an intellectual coward who would rather characterize the "Human Rights Crowd" as "whiners" instead of address the position. Or any of the numerous other positions people hold against the death penalty, some of which people have already stated. And don't think I didn't notice the attempt to equivocate your opponents with pseudoscience whores, even though this is a matter of ethics and not facts. I mean really, Human Rights is now the same type of stupidity as Judeo-Christian Religious Fundamentalism, whose entire morality can be summed up as "Humans have no Rights in the Face of a Judgmental and Prejudiced God?" Good to know where we stand, you moronic and dishonest asshole. Mr "Friendly" indeed. I have nothing more to say to you.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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I'm baffled that people think that being against the Death Penalty in all cases makes you as bad as a creationist. What if I'm against genocide in all cases? Does that make me a stubborn radical just because I think there are no cases were killing an entire race off may be "necessary"?
Simon_Jester wrote:From the way you phrase it, killing has to be either always right or always wrong with no possible middle ground.
I think it's clear from the context that the type of killing that is taken a principled stance against here is the executing of captured criminals.

He's also right, you can't say "I'm against the Death Penalty except in cases when people really deserve it" because that means you aren't actually against the Death Penalty at all. All people who are pro-DP think it's for people who deserve it in the end.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Simon_Jester wrote:That makes no sense. I mean, I could construct a parallel argument:

"Either you're against the act of taking property, or you're not. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "oh, well we really need to take this money of yours to pay for the government program of the week" and "oh, well I really need to steal your TV to pay for my coke habit" excuses."


Now, the parallel argument is total bullshit and I'm not even trying to say that yours is exactly equivalent. But there's a comparable problem.

From the way you phrase it, killing has to be either always right or always wrong with no possible middle ground. We wouldn't accept that argument for a minute when dealing with most other undesirable acts- like lying or stealing. If someone tried to tell you that lying was always wrong, and that there was no situation where lying could possibly be justified, and that making excuses for lying is pathetic... well, that person clearly has no sense of realism or practicality. Let's be up-front; people lie to each other, and sometimes it is not wrong that they do so.

Likewise, what we call "demanding money with menaces" when I dress up in a ski mask to do it becomes absolutely necessary, I'm quite serious it's a good thing, when public organizations do it for legitimate reasons as part of a law-abiding bureaucracy. Granted that the bureaucracy is still empowered to have its police throw you in jail for refusing to pay... but it's still necessary. It's not wrong.

Likewise, I think it's ridiculous for you to try to assert that killing is automatically always wrong or always acceptable, when nearly all other bad acts are situational in nature- they may be undesirable, but they are not immoral unless some other condition is fulfilled.
I already addressed this in a previous post. I'm against killing in all cases, BUT, in the act of dishing out punishments within the confines of law, there is no excuse for the death penalty. I'm not naïve to think that lying is anywhere near analogous to taking a life, so don't try that strawman.

It seems people have taken my view against the death penalty completely the wrong way and blown it up out of all proportion by bringing in all other sorts of completely irrelevant examples such as warfare which is not remotely relevant to the issue here. The fact that I find killing always wrong does not in any way contradict my view that it may also be necessary in acts of self-defence or war which prevent greater tragedies.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

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Formless wrote:So yes, you are Poisoning the Well because you are an intellectual coward who would rather characterize the "Human Rights Crowd" as "whiners" instead of address the position.
You know, linking to a definition doesn't mean you understand it. For me to poison the well, would rely on me expecting to win the argument solely on the fact I used something insulting on the other side (ie called them whiners) rather than expecting to win because I attack their position. Otherwise I am just doing the good old SD.net method of insulting people.
Formless wrote: Or any of the numerous other positions people hold against the death penalty, some of which people have already stated.
Well ignoring for a moment that
a) I pointed out I felt AV's argument is fallacious and explained why. Maybe I should link to a website defining black / white fallacy just to be thorough. So it would seem your claim that I didn't attempt to refute their arguments baseless.

b) Scorpion's statement about "slaking the public's thirst for revenge" is wait for it.... poisoning the well, so thanks for saving me the trouble of finding a link to explain that. Well I guess I didn't bother to refute that earlier, but hey, you did my job for me. :D

BTW - if we going down that route of labelling anyone who wants the death penalty (including the victim's family may I add) as having "thirst for revenge", it would seem to me that these "human rights crowd" don't care about the feelings / suffering of the victims. Oh wait, its only bad if Ann Coulter says that about 9/11 widows. But I digress. You see, it does illustrate my point though, when the abstract principle is held in higher esteem than the people they supposedly benefit, we have advocates who describe relatives in such an unflattering manner, ignoring their suffering and cries for some sort of closure in favour of labelling them "blood thirsty."

I could go on that Scorpion's hypothetical that we could get the wrong person would have traction... except he kind of does believe we didn't get the wrong people by his unflattering description of them. So that remains some theoretical objection, albeit a weak one in this case (since he doesn't even believe its the wrong people).
And don't think I didn't notice the attempt to equivocate your opponents with pseudoscience whores, even though this is a matter of ethics and not facts.
Actually I didn't. I pointed out that if I attack some pseudoscience you would NOT automatically assume I was attacking another board member, but attacking the advocates of the pseudoscience at large (who aren't board members). Thus is strange you would assume I would be specifically targeting a board member when I attack some of this human rights groups ethical arguments, especially when if you used 2 seconds of google you would see that these people (outside the board) are voicing their opinions publicly.
I mean really, Human Rights is now the same type of stupidity as Judeo-Christian Religious Fundamentalism, whose entire morality can be summed up as "Humans have no Rights in the Face of a Judgmental and Prejudiced God?"

No its not. Which I guess its fortunate I didn't actually equate human rights with pseudoscience isn't it?
Good to know where we stand, you moronic and dishonest asshole. Mr "Friendly" indeed. I have nothing more to say to you.
If you have nothing more to say, then this conversation should be very short. I guess I better get back to playing computer games then. At least the AI might provide a better challenge. Thanks for playing buddy.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

Post by Simon_Jester »

Formless wrote:So yes, you are Poisoning the Well because you are an intellectual coward who would rather characterize the "Human Rights Crowd" as "whiners" instead of address the position. Or any of the numerous other positions people hold against the death penalty, some of which people have already stated. And don't think I didn't notice the attempt to equivocate your opponents with pseudoscience whores, even though this is a matter of ethics and not facts. I mean really, Human Rights is now the same type of stupidity as Judeo-Christian Religious Fundamentalism, whose entire morality can be summed up as "Humans have no Rights in the Face of a Judgmental and Prejudiced God?" Good to know where we stand, you moronic and dishonest asshole. Mr "Friendly" indeed. I have nothing more to say to you.
There are two separate issues here.

One is that Friendly here seems to be addressing Admiral Valdemar's statement, specifically, that all killing is automatically wrong or no killling is wrong. There, he's saying that argument is as stupid and intellectually dishonest as a lot of the nonsense fundamentalists throw out there. This is a fairly standard SDN ploy "did you actually say that? You must be dumber than a caveman..."

The other is Friendly sneering at the "human rights crowd," which is rather ill-defined.
Metahive wrote:
He's also right, you can't say "I'm against the Death Penalty except in cases when people really deserve it" because that means you aren't actually against the Death Penalty at all. All people who are pro-DP think it's for people who deserve it in the end.
What about being against crappy court systems that exercise the death penalty in grotesque ways (say, appointing drunkards who sleep through trials as 'public defenders' for the accused)? Am I allowed to be opposed to crappy court systems without being opposed in principle to the death penalty itself?
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:That makes no sense. I mean, I could construct a parallel argument:

"Either you're against the act of taking property, or you're not. Full stop. I draw no distinctions between the "oh, well we really need to take this money of yours to pay for the government program of the week" and "oh, well I really need to steal your TV to pay for my coke habit" excuses."

Now, the parallel argument is total bullshit and I'm not even trying to say that yours is exactly equivalent. But there's a comparable problem...
I already addressed this in a previous post. I'm against killing in all cases, BUT, in the act of dishing out punishments within the confines of law, there is no excuse for the death penalty.
I apologize for having failed to interpret your second post correctly- the previous post of which you speak- in my first post in the thread.
I'm not naïve to think that lying is anywhere near analogous to taking a life, so don't try that strawman.
I am not saying "you believe X, therefore you must believe Y." That would be a strawman argument.

What I'm trying to do is create an analogy where the problem is obvious, to explain why I see a problem with your position on the death penalty as you originally stated it. There's obviously a problem when we say "X is bad, therefore X should never happen." I think there's still a problem even with saying "X is bad, therefore the government should never do X," unless we stop and think about the nature of X. These are statements which do not hold true for all values of X, so we can't automatically assume they'll hold true when X is "kill someone in a judicial context."

Would you like to lay out why you think that is a value of X for which "X is bad, therefore the government should never do X?"
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think that having a position which is against the death penalty now because of the way the system is built and working, and because there may be mistakes, but supporting another model, where death penalty may only be applied in case of, say, recidivism (double rape, double murder after release), does not make one a hypocrite.

Saying people should not be, generally, armed to the teeth, does not make one a hypocrite if that person advocates the expansion of gun rights in deeply insecure, authoritarian or poverty-polarized societies for other reasons than just mere gun rights.

If we acknowledge that killing may sometimes be a necessity, it is very much reasonable to be against torturous, degrading punishments and ways to kill (of which, by the way, life imprisonment may be one). It is reasonable to oppose hanging but support executions by a firing squad, since the latter is way more humane.

I'm baffled by the either-or statements in this thread. Although I do favor and understand radical positions (and being radically against death penalty is one of such positions), I can also say that being against a certain form of killing does not necessarily mean you are against killing per se.
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Re: India to execute 4 rapists

Post by Formless »

Simon_Jester wrote:There are two separate issues here.

One is that Friendly here seems to be addressing Admiral Valdemar's statement, specifically, that all killing is automatically wrong or no killling is wrong. There, he's saying that argument is as stupid and intellectually dishonest as a lot of the nonsense fundamentalists throw out there. This is a fairly standard SDN ploy "did you actually say that? You must be dumber than a caveman..."

The other is Friendly sneering at the "human rights crowd," which is rather ill-defined.
Setting aside that he was being explicitly evasive about who he was addressing period (that includes Valdemar), there simply is no way of positively addressing someone who uses Poisoning the Well tactics. The best way of handling that fallacy, IMO, is to not play their game. They have already made up their mind, and you should make it clear to everyone that their words are meaningless crap, born not from logic but emotion and prejudice. Make them drink their poison, so to speak. If someone decides to argue the point and shows that they can do so rationally, that's fine. They can be convinced or convincing, depending on how it plays.

Fact is, I have always made it clear I can change my mind about the death penalty, or anything else you might want to talk to me about. But you aren't going to do that by going for Ad Hominem attacks before I even come into the conversation. No one should have to put up with that.
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