FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

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FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by White Haven »

Wired wrote:The U.S. government in July obtained a search warrant demanding that Edward Snowden’s e-mail provider, Lavabit, turn over the private SSL keys that protected all web traffic to the site, according to to newly unsealed documents.

The July 16 order came after Texas-based Lavabit refused to circumvent its own security systems to comply with earlier orders intended to monitor a particular Lavabit user’s metadata, defined as “information about each communication sent or received by the account, including the date and time of the communication, the method of communication, and the source and destination of the communication.”

The name of the target is redacted from the unsealed records, but the offenses under investigation are listed as violations of the Espionage Act and theft of government property — the exact charges that have been filed against NSA whistleblower Snowden in the same Virginia court.

The records in the case, which is now being argued at the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, were unsealed today by a federal judge in Alexandria, Virginia. They confirm much of what had been suspected about the conflict between the pro-privacy e-mail company and the federal government, which led to Lavabit voluntarily closing in August rather than compromise the security it promised users.

The filings show that Lavabit was served on June 28 with a so-called “pen register” order requiring it to record, and provide the government with, the e-mail “from” and “to” lines on every e-mail, as well as the IP address used to access the mailbox. Because they provide only metadata, pen register orders can be obtained without “probable cause” that the target has committed a crime.

In the standard language for such an order, it required Lavabit to provide all “technical assistance necessary to accomplish the installation and use of the pen/trap device”

A conventional e-mail provider can easily funnel email headers to the government in response to such a request. But Lavabit offered paying customers a secure email service that stores incoming messages encrypted to a key known only to that user. Lavabit itself did not have access.

Lavabit founder Ladar Levison balked at the demand, and the government filed a motion to compel Lavabit to comply. Lavabit told the feds that the user had “enabled Lavabit’s encryption services, and thus Lavabit would not provide the requested information,” the government wrote.

“The representative of Lavabit indicated that Lavabit had the technical capability to decrypt the information, but that Lavabit did not want to ‘defeat [its] own system,’” the government complained.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Theresa Buchanan immediately ordered Lavabit to comply, threatening Levison with criminal contempt — which could have potentially put him in jail.

By July 9, Lavabit still hadn’t defeated its security for the government, and prosecutors asked for a summons to be served for Lavabit, and founder Ladar Levison, to be held in contempt “for its disobedience and resistance to these lawful orders.”

A week later, prosecutors upped the ante and obtained the search warrant demanding “all information necessary to decrypt communications sent to or from the Lavabit e-mail account [redacted] including encryption keys and SSL keys.”

With the SSL keys, and a wiretap, the FBI could have decrypted all web sessions between Lavabit users and the site, though the documents indicate the bureau still trying only to capture metadata on one user.

Levison went to court to fight the demand on August 1, in a closed-door hearing before Claude M. Hilton, Senior U. S. District Court Judge for the Eastern District of Virginia.

“The privacy of … Lavabit’s users are at stake,” Lavabit attorney Jesse Binnall told Hilton. “We’re not simply speaking of the target of this investigation. We’re talking about over 400,000 individuals and entities that are users of Lavabit who use this service because they believe their communications are secure. By handing over the keys, the encryption keys in this case, they necessarily become less secure.”


Courtroom sketch of Claude Hilton in federal court in Alexandria, Va. in 2004. Image: AP/Dana Verkouteren
By this point, Levison was evidently willing to comply with the original order, and modify his code to intercept the metadata on one user. But the government was no longer interested.

“Anything done by Mr. Levison in terms of writing code or whatever, we have to trust Mr. Levison that we have gotten the information that we were entitled to get since June 28th,” prosecutor James Trump told the judge. “He’s had every opportunity to propose solutions to come up with ways to address his concerns and he simply hasn’t.”

“We can assure the court that the way that this would operate, while the metadata stream would be captured by a device, the device does not download, does not store, no one looks at it,” Trump said. “It filters everything, and at the back end of the filter, we get what we’re required to get under the order.”

“So there’s no agents looking through the 400,000 other bits of information, customers, whatever,” Trump added. “No one looks at that, no one stores it, no one has access to it.”

“All right,” said Hilton. “Well, I think that’s reasonable.”

Hilton ruled for the government. “[The] government’s clearly entitled to the information that they’re seeking, and just because you-all have set up a system that makes that difficult, that doesn’t in any way lessen the government’s right to receive that
information just as they could from any telephone company or any other e-mail source that could provide it easily,” said Hilton.

The judge also rejected Lavabit’s motion to unseal the record. “This is an ongoing criminal investigation, and there’s no leeway to disclose any information about it.”

In an interesting work-around, Levison complied the next day by turning over the private SSL keys as an 11 page printout in 4-point type. The government, not unreasonably, called the printout “illegible.”

“To make use of these keys, the FBI would have to manually input all 2,560 characters, and one incorrect keystroke in this laborious process would render the FBI collection system incapable of collecting decrypted data,” prosecutors wrote.

The court ordered Levison to provide a more useful electronic copy. By August 5, Lavabit was still resisting the order, and the judge ordered that Levison would be fined $5,000 a day beginning August 6 until he handed over electronic copies of the keys.

On August 8, Levison shuttered Lavabit, making any attempt at surveillance moot. Still under a gag order, he posted an oblique message saying he’d been left with little choice in the matter.

“I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly 10 years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit,” Levison wrote at the time. “After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations.”

Lavabit has raised approximately $30,000 in an online fundraising drive to finance its appeal to the 4th Circuit. Today the appeals court extended the deadline for opening briefs to October 10.

The complete document set follows. (At linked article, not plain text. Also one hundred and fifty two pages, which would make this a very long quote box.)
I don't know what's scarier, the idea that the FBI doesn't realize both the scope of the access what they were demanding would provide and the bodyblow that the order would deliver to trust in SSL encryption, or that they do realize it and either don't care or actively seek these things. Just about every bit of encrypted traffic on the Internet is secured via SSL certificates, and there are a lot of governments with a lot of power and not a lot of trustworthiness out there, mine included of late.

To put this in perspective, the FBI demanded the keys to the kingdom, the ability to read every bit of private, encrypted main sent through a service dedicated to ensuring that does not happen, because they wanted access to one person's email metadata and were told to get bent. Is telling the FBI that a bad idea? Sure. But 'someone thinks we are assholes, and is willing to risk criminal prosecution to show us that in no uncertain terms' is not a justification for attempting to tear down trust in one of the fundamental systems that allows non-public communication via the Internet. They originally went after Edward Snowden's metadata, which for some obscure reason they do not need to even show probable cause to acquire a warrant. They then attempted to parley that into access to all metadata and content for all users of the service, not just Snowden. Scout's honor, though, they'd only go after the metadata, and only for Snowden.

The irony of the FBI acting in an astoundingly untrustworthy fashion in support of an attempt to suppress someone who exposed the fact that the NSA was acting in an astoundingly untrustworthy fashion tastes bitter at best.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

I'm just saying, the best part is how he gave them the SSL keys.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Mr Bean »

Gaidin wrote:I'm just saying, the best part is how he gave them the SSL keys.
The best part is how he gave them they key them wiped his own setup making the key useless.

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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

Eh, wiping the system is fairly standard fare. I'm indifferent to that rebelliousness and ethics. Bringing in a printout of the key in a manner that's impossible to accurately use in a reasonable manner of time has a level of snark to it that has me literally laughing out loud.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by White Haven »

Something in me desperately hopes that not only was it in 4-point font, but it was in Comic Sans to boot. :lol:
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

2500 characters in 11 pages? Sounds about right.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by TheHammer »

White Haven wrote:
Wired wrote:The U.S. government in July obtained a search warrant demanding that Edward Snowden’s e-mail provider, Lavabit, turn over the private SSL keys that protected all web traffic to the site, according to to newly unsealed documents.
OMG THE GUVAMANET!!!!

Your bombastic thread title seems to indicate that the FBI did something wrong, when in fact the article seems to indicate that they did everything the right way and only came to demand the SSL cert when faced with repeated willful obstruction from lavabit.

Lets break it down a bit
The July 16 order came after Texas-based Lavabit refused to circumvent its own security systems to comply with earlier orders intended to monitor a particular Lavabit user’s metadata, defined as “information about each communication sent or received by the account, including the date and time of the communication, the method of communication, and the source and destination of the communication.”
So, intially it seems that the company refused to comply with a legal government order to assist in the monitoring of a particular user's traffic. It was for a specific user as part of an ongoing investigation against Snowden. Possibly Snowden himself. It is that refusal that prompted the government to request the SSL keys to carry out its legal duty.
The name of the target is redacted from the unsealed records, but the offenses under investigation are listed as violations of the Espionage Act and theft of government property — the exact charges that have been filed against NSA whistleblower Snowden in the same Virginia court.

The records in the case, which is now being argued at the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, were unsealed today by a federal judge in Alexandria, Virginia. They confirm much of what had been suspected about the conflict between the pro-privacy e-mail company and the federal government, which led to Lavabit voluntarily closing in August rather than compromise the security it promised users.

The filings show that Lavabit was served on June 28 with a so-called “pen register” order requiring it to record, and provide the government with, the e-mail “from” and “to” lines on every e-mail, as well as the IP address used to access the mailbox. Because they provide only metadata, pen register orders can be obtained without “probable cause” that the target has committed a crime.

In the standard language for such an order, it required Lavabit to provide all “technical assistance necessary to accomplish the installation and use of the pen/trap device”

A conventional e-mail provider can easily funnel email headers to the government in response to such a request. But Lavabit offered paying customers a secure email service that stores incoming messages encrypted to a key known only to that user. Lavabit itself did not have access.

Lavabit founder Ladar Levison balked at the demand, and the government filed a motion to compel Lavabit to comply. Lavabit told the feds that the user had “enabled Lavabit’s encryption services, and thus Lavabit would not provide the requested information,” the government wrote.

“The representative of Lavabit indicated that Lavabit had the technical capability to decrypt the information, but that Lavabit did not want to ‘defeat [its] own system,’” the government complained.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Theresa Buchanan immediately ordered Lavabit to comply, threatening Levison with criminal contempt — which could have potentially put him in jail.
A description of the original order, Lavabit's refusal to adhere to it, leading to the subsequent order for the SSL keys. Whether they are "unable" or rather "unwilling" to comply depends upon the tehnical details, but it seems to be more likely to be the latter.
By July 9, Lavabit still hadn’t defeated its security for the government, and prosecutors asked for a summons to be served for Lavabit, and founder Ladar Levison, to be held in contempt “for its disobedience and resistance to these lawful orders.”

A week later, prosecutors upped the ante and obtained the search warrant demanding “all information necessary to decrypt communications sent to or from the Lavabit e-mail account [redacted] including encryption keys and SSL keys.”

With the SSL keys, and a wiretap, the FBI could have decrypted all web sessions between Lavabit users and the site, though the documents indicate the bureau still trying only to capture metadata on one user.
Given repeated refusal by lavabit to comply with the court order, they finally went ahead and demanded the SSL keys so that they could monitor it themselves, within the scope of the order to capture metadata on one user.
Levison went to court to fight the demand on August 1, in a closed-door hearing before Claude M. Hilton, Senior U. S. District Court Judge for the Eastern District of Virginia.

“The privacy of … Lavabit’s users are at stake,” Lavabit attorney Jesse Binnall told Hilton. “We’re not simply speaking of the target of this investigation. We’re talking about over 400,000 individuals and entities that are users of Lavabit who use this service because they believe their communications are secure. By handing over the keys, the encryption keys in this case, they necessarily become less secure.”
Guess you should have complied with the earlier orders to hand over only the data from a specific user. That being said, the FBI has plenty of experience accessing systems for targets in criminal probes, even when those systems ALSO contain data for persons who are not targets. If you were operating a warehouse full of paper documents from thousands of users, the FBI would be perfectly within its rights to come in, with a search warrant, and search it for documents pertaining to its targets.

That might be bad for your business model whereby you essentially proclaim to be "Untouchable, and Above the law" as an enticement to customers, but tough shit.
Courtroom sketch of Claude Hilton in federal court in Alexandria, Va. in 2004. Image: AP/Dana Verkouteren
By this point, Levison was evidently willing to comply with the original order, and modify his code to intercept the metadata on one user. But the government was no longer interested.

“Anything done by Mr. Levison in terms of writing code or whatever, we have to trust Mr. Levison that we have gotten the information that we were entitled to get since June 28th,” prosecutor James Trump told the judge. “He’s had every opportunity to propose solutions to come up with ways to address his concerns and he simply hasn’t.”

“We can assure the court that the way that this would operate, while the metadata stream would be captured by a device, the device does not download, does not store, no one looks at it,” Trump said. “It filters everything, and at the back end of the filter, we get what we’re required to get under the order.”

“So there’s no agents looking through the 400,000 other bits of information, customers, whatever,” Trump added. “No one looks at that, no one stores it, no one has access to it.”
This is exactly what I would expect the FBI to do in this case. Again, if this were a locked warehouse and the owner refused to hand over records for an individual, I would expect the FBI to roll in, show its search warrant, break the locks, and enter the building. Even though they could "in theory", having physical access to the building, rumage through everyone's documents. But they would not be legally entitled to do so, and being caught doing so would be a crime. The same premise applies here.
“All right,” said Hilton. “Well, I think that’s reasonable.”

Hilton ruled for the government. “[The] government’s clearly entitled to the information that they’re seeking, and just because you-all have set up a system that makes that difficult, that doesn’t in any way lessen the government’s right to receive that
information just as they could from any telephone company or any other e-mail source that could provide it easily,”
said Hilton.
Judge Hilton sums this up in a nutshell.
The judge also rejected Lavabit’s motion to unseal the record. “This is an ongoing criminal investigation, and there’s no leeway to disclose any information about it.”

In an interesting work-around, Levison complied the next day by turning over the private SSL keys as an 11 page printout in 4-point type. The government, not unreasonably, called the printout “illegible.”

“To make use of these keys, the FBI would have to manually input all 2,560 characters, and one incorrect keystroke in this laborious process would render the FBI collection system incapable of collecting decrypted data,” prosecutors wrote.
One last "dick move" by lavabit. I understand that Lavabit may not like it, and they are certainly within their rights to resist via all legal means. But at the end of the day if there is a legally obtained search warrant, and your legal means to resist have been exhausted then you've got to comply. That's not "government oppression" despite attempts to paint it as such.
The court ordered Levison to provide a more useful electronic copy. By August 5, Lavabit was still resisting the order, and the judge ordered that Levison would be fined $5,000 a day beginning August 6 until he handed over electronic copies of the keys.

On August 8, Levison shuttered Lavabit, making any attempt at surveillance moot. Still under a gag order, he posted an oblique message saying he’d been left with little choice in the matter.

“I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly 10 years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit,” Levison wrote at the time. “After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations.”

Lavabit has raised approximately $30,000 in an online fundraising drive to finance its appeal to the 4th Circuit. Today the appeals court extended the deadline for opening briefs to October 10.

The complete document set follows. (At linked article, not plain text. Also one hundred and fifty two pages, which would make this a very long quote box.)
He's most likely going to lose any appeal he makes. He doesn't have any leg to stand on legally for denying a legally obtained search warrant.

Now lets get to your personal comments:
I don't know what's scarier, the idea that the FBI doesn't realize both the scope of the access what they were demanding would provide and the bodyblow that the order would deliver to trust in SSL encryption, or that they do realize it and either don't care or actively seek these things. Just about every bit of encrypted traffic on the Internet is secured via SSL certificates, and there are a lot of governments with a lot of power and not a lot of trustworthiness out there, mine included of late.

To put this in perspective, the FBI demanded the keys to the kingdom, the ability to read every bit of private, encrypted main sent through a service dedicated to ensuring that does not happen, because they wanted access to one person's email metadata and were told to get bent. Is telling the FBI that a bad idea? Sure. But 'someone thinks we are assholes, and is willing to risk criminal prosecution to show us that in no uncertain terms' is not a justification for attempting to tear down trust in one of the fundamental systems that allows non-public communication via the Internet.
The FBI knows exactly what its doing and exactly what it asked for. As noted above, it only sought the SSL keys after repeated refusal of cooperation from lavabit with a legally obtained order. Lavabit was in the wrong and essentially forced the FBI's hand. Again, its the same idea of a physical warehouse or vault - the FBI may demand the keys to those places to execute a legal search, but that doesn't mean they can take whatever they want. They are limited to the scope of the search warrant, just as in this case.
They originally went after Edward Snowden's metadata, which for some obscure reason they do not need to even show probable cause to acquire a warrant. They then attempted to parley that into access to all metadata and content for all users of the service, not just Snowden. Scout's honor, though, they'd only go after the metadata, and only for Snowden.
Are you fucking joking? Maybe I'm mis-understanding what you've said here, but do you honestly believe the Government didn't have, or didn't show probable cause to seek a warrant for Edward Snowden's metadata?
The irony of the FBI acting in an astoundingly untrustworthy fashion in support of an attempt to suppress someone who exposed the fact that the NSA was acting in an astoundingly untrustworthy fashion tastes bitter at best.
On the contrary, the acted in an extremely trustworthy fashion.

This was all done in the eyes of the public, in a Federal district court. They got a warrant ahead of time and made multiple efforts to restrict the scope of the data they obtained. The request for SSL keys came only when forced to do so by non-compliance from Lavabit. Further they explained very clearly how they would restrict what data was actually captured with that key.

Conspiracy theories aside, they couldn't have done it better in this case.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by White Haven »

I'm at work, so I don't have time to take your whole post to town, so I'll just for the moment address the parts of your reply that directly address my own commentary.

First off, they were blocked in a non-legal fashion by Lavabit. At which point, rather than force compliance with their existing search warrant, which would be perfectly legal albeit ethically dubious, they elected to force compliance of something so vastly broad that it can't even see the scope of the original search warrant with a fucking telescope. As for your comparison to the physical warehouse scenario, the key difference here is that we're dealing with data, not physical objects. Having access to the data means th at you have the data, and only your scouts-honor promise that it's not going to be accessed or copied for later use. Given that the entire Snowden affair is all about a demonstrated lack of government ethics, placing that kind of trust in those same ethics during the investigtion of the same case seems...dubious, to say the least.

Secondly, the FBI was not required to show probable cause to obtain their initial warrant, because it was only going after metadata. This I find extremely suspect, although technically legal under the bizarre, pretzel-shaped present interpretations of law that US law enforcement works under. The FBI did not show probable cause for the initial warrant, because their lawyers have told them they are not required to and nobody has successfully challenged that yet with regards to metadata searches.

And this was in no way conducted in a trustworthy fashion, because Levinson had to fight it out in court just to be able to tell people this had happened. It's not 'in the eyes of the public' when the whole thing goes on behind closed doors and under the cover of a gag order. That is, again, so far from public, transparent, or trustworthy that it can't even find them on a map.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

TheHammer wrote: OMG THE GUVAMANET!!!!

Your bombastic thread title seems to indicate that the FBI did something wrong, when in fact the article seems to indicate that they did everything the right way and only came to demand the SSL cert when faced with repeated willful obstruction from lavabit.
The FBI has absolutely no business getting anyone's SSL certs, because 1. theyre essentially undermining the security of the entire global internet with these kinds of actions 2. they wont be 'just making a search', theyre making a permamant copy of absolutely everything stored on the site by anyone and everyone, And I dont mean just the meta-info they originally sought, but all the contents as well.(in case of paid-premium members, encrypted contents) All the contents on every single user.
TheHammer wrote:So, intially it seems that the company refused to comply with a legal government order to assist in the monitoring of a particular user's traffic. It was for a specific user as part of an ongoing investigation against Snowden. Possibly Snowden himself. It is that refusal that prompted the government to request the SSL keys to carry out its legal duty.
So you are saying a government has a right to search the contents of my mail because they suspect someone to whom I have never been in any sort of contact is using the same postal service as me?
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

NettiWelho wrote: So you are saying a government has a right to search the contents of my mail because they suspect someone to whom I have never been in any sort of contact is using the same postal service as me?
If the government has a warrant for the contents of your mail, yes. You largely missed the part where the FBI and prosecution successfully made the argument to the court that since Lavabit isn't giving them the information(and only the information) they have a warrant for, then the court should order Lavabit to give them what they need to get that information(and only that information) themselves from their system. That information(and only that information) is what the warrant is for. Anything else they got would be overreach and would be a great way for them to get smacked down by any court in the country. From an analytical standpoint, it's not the FBI's fault that Lavabit did a shitty job compartmentalizing their system. That's what largely forced Lavabit to kill their system and play a fairly decent martyr card at the same time.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

Gaidin wrote:If the government has a warrant for the contents of your mail, yes.
In this case they didn't have warrant to my content but they still would've gotten access to my content
Gaidin wrote:You largely missed the part where the FBI and prosecution successfully made the argument to the court that since Lavabit isn't giving them the information(and only the information) they have a warrant for, then the court should order Lavabit to give them what they need to get that information(and only that information) themselves from their system. That information(and only that information) is what the warrant is for.
Lavabit did agree to give the information what FBI originally wanted, but at that point FBI decided they want more.

When the FBI gets access to things like this it doesn't stay private, at the minimium they share it with NSA which then stores all the info forever regardless the citizenship of the recipient and sender of each of the messages because legally none of those communiques are counted as domestic where the law is concerned.
Gaidin wrote:Anything else they got would be overreach and would be a great way for them to get smacked down by any court in the country.
Except in reality the end result appearently is the exact opposite.
Gaidin wrote:From an analytical standpoint, it's not the FBI's fault that Lavabit did a shitty job compartmentalizing their system. That's what largely forced Lavabit to kill their system and play a fairly decent martyr card at the same time.
Eh... Lavabit was shut down because they had 2 options; turn over the keys to access the contents for every single user on the site and continue operating an compromised service which no longer is capable of delivering the very core of the service, security or shut down.
Last edited by NettiWelho on 2013-10-03 01:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Lagmonster »

White Haven wrote:As for your comparison to the physical warehouse scenario, the key difference here is that we're dealing with data, not physical objects. Having access to the data means that you have the data, and only your scouts-honor promise that it's not going to be accessed or copied for later use.
Without taking sides in the overall issue of government trustworthiness...providing that the government had the legal authority to collect the data they were after, on this point I think Hammer's analogy has you beat. It's trivially easy to construct a scenario wherein an untrustworthy government representative could exploit any access to anything, be it servers or property. I applaud Lavabit for fighting tooth and nail to bring the entire scenario to public light - that was the right thing to do and they should not have been obstructed from doing it - but I would have started by complying under protest *before* things escalated to the point where other users were ever at risk.

I suspect that your objection is tied to the case itself; replace Snowden with an at-large serial killer and I bet your concerns about the company's protests about its guarantees of privacy would evaporate.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by White Haven »

Lagmonster, there are two issues here, one that's impacted by the case directly, the other not.

With regards to the ethical questions of barging in and demanding access to data in the first place, I don't feel it is unreasonable to be very, very suspicious of actions taken in defense of a third party who is absolutely known to be behaving in a fashion that is extremely unethical and only arguably legal because our legal system is a bad, bad joke. While the same ethical questions would arise were the FBI, say, hunting the aforementioned serial killer, I would be far less inclined to look at them in the poorest possible light simply because they're not acting (in secret, mind you) to defend the NSA and strike back at the source of the leak. The fact remains that they are doing these things, and so yes, I'm going to regard any potentially-suspect acts taken in the course of the FBI's investigation in the most ethically-dubious light.

The second issue, and the one decoupled from the ethical questions of the Snowden matter, is that you Do. Not. Fuck. With. SSL.

Seriously.

You especially do not fuck with SSL in a manner roughly akin to chucking fuel-air hand grenades in the vague general direction as your suspect. That's the equivalent here. Whether or not the data uncovered by the FBI in this case would have ended up in their own database or being scooped up by the NSA or what-have-you, the precedent is out there. If you are dealing with a company that uses SSL to secure its online communications and some entirely unrelated person also does business with that company and has trouble with --any law enforcement body on the planet with jurisdiction-- (which could be any of them given that the internet gives zero fucks about national borders), you run the risk of having your secure communications read by...who knows? It's not the individual incident that's the problem from this perspective, it's the precedent that runs the risk of seriously damaging trust in SSL itself. Accordingly, if you are anywhere even remotely close to a responsible individual or institution (as the FBI at least theoretically is), you Do. Not. Fuck. With. SSL.

The FBI could be as pure as the driven snow in this particular case. I doubt it, given who they're acting in defense of, but whether they are or not, they're still acting with breathtaking irresponsibility with regards to the second point.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Simon_Jester »

White Haven wrote:I'm at work, so I don't have time to take your whole post to town, so I'll just for the moment address the parts of your reply that directly address my own commentary.

First off, they were blocked in a non-legal fashion by Lavabit. At which point, rather than force compliance with their existing search warrant, which would be perfectly legal albeit ethically dubious, they elected to force compliance of something so vastly broad that it can't even see the scope of the original search warrant with a fucking telescope. As for your comparison to the physical warehouse scenario, the key difference here is that we're dealing with data, not physical objects. Having access to the data means th at you have the data, and only your scouts-honor promise that it's not going to be accessed or copied for later use.
In other words, to set up a physical analogy... When they were denied immediate access to Snowden's safe-deposit box, without probable cause... the FBI proceeded to ask for, and get, the right to confiscate the entire contents of the bank vault?

Because that obviously is a safe, corruption-free way to handle this.

If we're operating on those terms, we really need to review the process by which courts issue warrants for data, or enact some kind of safeguard to protect the property (data) of innocent bystanders.

Now, I'm not saying the company has a right to conceal the metadata in the first place, without raising a protest. A bank certainly doesn't have a right to deny access to a safe-deposit box if the DEA comes with a warrant looking for drugs or contraband. But with cases like this being accepted precedent, we really need some kind of mechanism for protecting the security of the non-accused, when the state goes on a massive fishing expedition
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NettiWelho wrote:So you are saying a government has a right to search the contents of my mail because they suspect someone to whom I have never been in any sort of contact is using the same postal service as me?
If the government has a warrant for the contents of your mail, yes. You largely missed the part where the FBI and prosecution successfully made the argument to the court that since Lavabit isn't giving them the information(and only the information) they have a warrant for, then the court should order Lavabit to give them what they need to get that information(and only that information) themselves from their system. That information(and only that information) is what the warrant is for. Anything else they got would be overreach and would be a great way for them to get smacked down by any court in the country. From an analytical standpoint, it's not the FBI's fault that Lavabit did a shitty job compartmentalizing their system. That's what largely forced Lavabit to kill their system and play a fairly decent martyr card at the same time.
Who is responsible for ensuring that the FBI doesn't proceed to crunch through all the Lavabit data on a fishing expedition, in the process of extracting Snowden's data?

At this point, I no longer believe law enforcement's assurances that data which constitutes my personal effects will NOT be read without a warrant. The evidence of recent events certainly isn't trending that way.

So who's watching the watchmen?

It's as bad as if, in physical space, the police were entitled to cart off my personal belongings because someone in the same apartment building had been caught with drugs. What recourse do I have if the property/data is mishandled or abused? How much assurance do I have that the information won't be formally or informally used to persecute me for, say, unpopular political opinions?
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Gaidin wrote:
NettiWelho wrote:So you are saying a government has a right to search the contents of my mail because they suspect someone to whom I have never been in any sort of contact is using the same postal service as me?
If the government has a warrant for the contents of your mail, yes. You largely missed the part where the FBI and prosecution successfully made the argument to the court that since Lavabit isn't giving them the information(and only the information) they have a warrant for, then the court should order Lavabit to give them what they need to get that information(and only that information) themselves from their system. That information(and only that information) is what the warrant is for. Anything else they got would be overreach and would be a great way for them to get smacked down by any court in the country. From an analytical standpoint, it's not the FBI's fault that Lavabit did a shitty job compartmentalizing their system. That's what largely forced Lavabit to kill their system and play a fairly decent martyr card at the same time.
Who is responsible for ensuring that the FBI doesn't proceed to crunch through all the Lavabit data on a fishing expedition, in the process of extracting Snowden's data?

At this point, I no longer believe law enforcement's assurances that data which constitutes my personal effects will NOT be read without a warrant. The evidence of recent events certainly isn't trending that way.

So who's watching the watchmen?

It's as bad as if, in physical space, the police were entitled to cart off my personal belongings because someone in the same apartment building had been caught with drugs. What recourse do I have if the property/data is mishandled or abused? How much assurance do I have that the information won't be formally or informally used to persecute me for, say, unpopular political opinions?
If you don't mind I'm gonna go back to a part from the first half of your post as that's more relevant.
In other words, to set up a physical analogy... When they were denied immediate access to Snowden's safe-deposit box, without probable cause... the FBI proceeded to ask for, and get, the right to confiscate the entire contents of the bank vault?

Because that obviously is a safe, corruption-free way to handle this.
Why the fuck would Lavabit set it up so that the only way to have the courts order them bypassed would be to functionally confiscate the keys to the entire contents of the bank vault? A bank vault is literally designed so you can only literally confiscate one key to one storage locker at a time. From the way the article is written, for the FBI to legally bypass Lavabit, as ordered, there was no other way. Lavabit either had incompetent design or wanted the drama.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Simon_Jester »

In this case, the problem appears to be that Lavabit does not have a key that opens only one box. They appear to be stuck either using Snowden's (presumably) key to open Snowden's (apparently) box, or using their master key to open ALL the boxes.

The sticking point appears to be that Lavabit objects to handing the master key over to the FBI, on the grounds that this would let them peruse all Lavabit content at their leisure.

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with that handover if I thought the FBI had mechanisms in place to ensure that it only scoops up the content it has a warrant for. I don't really believe that, because for the last ten years the state has shown escalating contempt for the idea that it does NOT have a right to such data.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

Gaidin wrote:Why the fuck would Lavabit set it up so that the only way to have the courts order them bypassed would be to functionally confiscate the keys to the entire contents of the bank vault? A bank vault is literally designed so you can only literally confiscate one key to one storage locker at a time. From the way the article is written, for the FBI to legally bypass Lavabit, as ordered, there was no other way. Lavabit either had incompetent design or wanted the drama.
It is the same with every single site, if FBI was to acquire Microsoft's or Google's(NSA propably already has both) ssl's, they'd be able to decypher the contents of every user whos communicating with Microsoft's or Google's using whats assumed to be relatively safe private channel.

The problem is not the Lavabits implementation but with the failure of the FBI to comprehend what exactly theyre asking.(Or more likely maliciously asking more than they need)
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by phongn »

Some of you guys are confusing the encryption methods. Lavabit has multiple systems.
  • One system is used to secure the actual contents of the emails residing on their systems. Each account presumably has a unique key; the FBI initially requested this. Compromise of this key would not subvert the other accounts
  • Another system (TLS) is used to secure information in transit over the Internet. Depending on how things were set up, compromising this key would let the FBI read all future information going between end-users and Lavabit, and possibly previously-recorded information as well. Lavabit could have built a system in which users had unique keys to secure in-transit information, but such systems are much more complicated to build and would require some custom software on both client and server.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

Should stress the point that by the time Lavabits was ready to turn over what FBI originally requested the FBI was no longer satiesfied with that and increased their demands.
Also I was under the belief that even Lavabits didn't have access to premium-customers contents? As in its encrypted with the unique user password which they dont have in clear text at hand, meaning they wouldn't have been able to simply just turn over the key for the single user.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by TheHammer »

NettiWelho wrote:Should stress the point that by the time Lavabits was ready to turn over what FBI originally requested the FBI was no longer satiesfied with that and increased their demands.
Also I was under the belief that even Lavabits didn't have access to premium-customers contents? As in its encrypted with the unique user password which they dont have in clear text at hand, meaning they wouldn't have been able to simply just turn over the key for the single user.
The idea that Lavabits would turn over the data they were supposed to turn over was dubious at best given their blatant refusal to do so up to that point. Remember, they repeated insisted that they "Couldn't" or "wouldn't" provide the data, so why believe it would be different by then? Most likely this was a delaying tactic on their part, one designed to obstruct the FBI in its duty. As the prosecutor noted, at no point did Lavabits propose any solutions to this situation, rather they had persisted in stonewalling the original court order to the point where the FBI had no choice but to retrieve the information directly rather than trust an entity (Lavabits) that had shown itself to uncooperative.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by TheHammer »

White Haven wrote:Lagmonster, there are two issues here, one that's impacted by the case directly, the other not.

With regards to the ethical questions of barging in and demanding access to data in the first place, I don't feel it is unreasonable to be very, very suspicious of actions taken in defense of a third party who is absolutely known to be behaving in a fashion that is extremely unethical and only arguably legal because our legal system is a bad, bad joke. While the same ethical questions would arise were the FBI, say, hunting the aforementioned serial killer, I would be far less inclined to look at them in the poorest possible light simply because they're not acting (in secret, mind you) to defend the NSA and strike back at the source of the leak. The fact remains that they are doing these things, and so yes, I'm going to regard any potentially-suspect acts taken in the course of the FBI's investigation in the most ethically-dubious light.
Whether you want to consider Snowden a "hero" or a "villain" he almost certainly broke the law. Whether you think the ends justify the means, the fact remains that the FBI is doing its job. And it would seem they were making efforts to limit the scope of the information obtained to only that of their target, presumably Snowden. It was only after Lavabits essentially made it impossible to trust them that they went to the lengths of directly obtaining the data themselves.
The second issue, and the one decoupled from the ethical questions of the Snowden matter, is that you Do. Not. Fuck. With. SSL.

Seriously.

You especially do not fuck with SSL in a manner roughly akin to chucking fuel-air hand grenades in the vague general direction as your suspect. That's the equivalent here. Whether or not the data uncovered by the FBI in this case would have ended up in their own database or being scooped up by the NSA or what-have-you, the precedent is out there. If you are dealing with a company that uses SSL to secure its online communications and some entirely unrelated person also does business with that company and has trouble with --any law enforcement body on the planet with jurisdiction-- (which could be any of them given that the internet gives zero fucks about national borders), you run the risk of having your secure communications read by...who knows? It's not the individual incident that's the problem from this perspective, it's the precedent that runs the risk of seriously damaging trust in SSL itself. Accordingly, if you are anywhere even remotely close to a responsible individual or institution (as the FBI at least theoretically is), you Do. Not. Fuck. With. SSL.
Its one SSL key for one site that had shown itself to be uncooperative with a legal search order. The only thing SSL does is secure communications between the client and the server. If you have control of the server, you have control of the data it receives. Had Lavabits cooperated, the FBI would have had access to the same information they were able to obtain on their own with the SSL keys.

The FBI clearly described the type of device they were planning to use and how it would function:
The FBI wrote: “We can assure the court that the way that this would operate, while the metadata stream would be captured by a device, the device does not download, does not store, no one looks at it,” Trump said. “It filters everything, and at the back end of the filter, we get what we’re required to get under the order.”
Essentially you have a device that functions as a "man-in-the-middle" holding the SSL keys. All Email flows into the device which decrypts it before re-encrypting and sending most of it on its way. Data that is bound for the legally approved target of the search warrant is likely re-routed to an FBI controlled storage device, whereas all other data passes through without being read, recorded, or otherwise accessed.

By the way, lest you think this something extraordinary, many companies employ similar methods to inspect SSL enabled web traffic on their corporate networks: https://www.websense.com/content/suppor ... spx#667177.
The FBI could be as pure as the driven snow in this particular case. I doubt it, given who they're acting in defense of, but whether they are or not, they're still acting with breathtaking irresponsibility with regards to the second point.
You are greatly overblowing the situation. Again, you're talking one SSL key for one site - a key that could be regenerated and replaced once the FBI had concluded its legal duties. Its not going to destroy PKI as we know it.

If your fear is that the FBI would abuse the power it had in this particular instance, well I don't know to tell you... If they obtained any information outside the scope of a search warrant it would be an illegal act, same as if they raided that hypothetical warehouse full of documents, and took documents unrelated to their warrant.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

TheHammer wrote:The idea that Lavabits would turn over the data they were supposed to turn over was dubious at best given their blatant refusal to do so up to that point. Remember, they repeated insisted that they "Couldn't" or "wouldn't" provide the data, so why believe it would be different by then? Most likely this was a delaying tactic on their part, one designed to obstruct the FBI in its duty. As the prosecutor noted, at no point did Lavabits propose any solutions to this situation, rather they had persisted in stonewalling the original court order to the point where the FBI had no choice but to retrieve the information directly rather than trust an entity (Lavabits) that had shown itself to uncooperative.
They cannot give what they dont have, if the users message contents are encrypted using a user-supplied password theres nothing the provider can do when someone demands the password.

You dont grow wings just because someone pushes you off a roof. And if your business model is centered on secure service you cant have unkown amount of unknown 3rd party people to have full access to every of your customers private stuff, especially since atleast one of the parties to have access is proven to abuse any trust given and completely disregard and laws and treaties on the matter.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by Gaidin »

Something tells me that no user password in the world would encrypt the metadata as that's sort of needed for network use. Lavabits was stonewalling from the start and the FBI had no reason to trust they were cooperating with anything to do with the warrant or the subsequent court order that would allow them to fulfill the warrant.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by NettiWelho »

Gaidin wrote:Something tells me that no user password in the world would encrypt the metadata as that's sort of needed for network use.
Well since all the messages are account unique you could encrypt the local database and decrypt only upon user request, since its supposed to be secure with provider not having direct access...

Sure, you'd have to send plaintext meta-data over the network but all local logs could very well be kept only user accessible, and since Lavabit would only have access to the local logs, which could be encrypted it could be a bit tricky even to hand over meta-data...

Thought I'm not saying it is necessarily implemented like that, but thats how I imagine its setup like after what Ive read.
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Re: FBI outed in attempt to obtain SSL certificate

Post by TheHammer »

NettiWelho wrote:
TheHammer wrote:The idea that Lavabits would turn over the data they were supposed to turn over was dubious at best given their blatant refusal to do so up to that point. Remember, they repeated insisted that they "Couldn't" or "wouldn't" provide the data, so why believe it would be different by then? Most likely this was a delaying tactic on their part, one designed to obstruct the FBI in its duty. As the prosecutor noted, at no point did Lavabits propose any solutions to this situation, rather they had persisted in stonewalling the original court order to the point where the FBI had no choice but to retrieve the information directly rather than trust an entity (Lavabits) that had shown itself to uncooperative.
They cannot give what they dont have, if the users message contents are encrypted using a user-supplied password theres nothing the provider can do when someone demands the password.

You dont grow wings just because someone pushes you off a roof. And if your business model is centered on secure service you cant have unkown amount of unknown 3rd party people to have full access to every of your customers private stuff, especially since atleast one of the parties to have access is proven to abuse any trust given and completely disregard and laws and treaties on the matter.
You are talking about two different things. E-mail "data-at-rest" (that which has already been recieved and stored) on Lavabit servers might well have been encrypted and as such would require a brute force attack, or the password, to access it. Presuming there was no backdoor, or method by which that passphrase was recorded by Lavabits, then yes its possible that they legitimately could not provide access. Further, you could even protect the contents of individual emails by sending them in password encrypted attachments.

However SSL is specific to the data in transit - and that's the data that the FBI was after: e-mail “from” and “to” lines on every e-mail, as well as the IP address used to access the mailbox. At a certain point that data is decrypted so that the two devices can talk to each other. Lavabit could have done the exact same thing the FBI was intending to do with the SSL cert, and thus retained control of the keys entirely. Instead they refused to do so, which lead to the FBI doing it themselves.
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