Shots Fired at Capitol Hill

[Justice]

Gunshots being reported on the Hill, Capitol currently in lockdown.

[Borgholio]

Anybody surprised by this?

[Forgothrax]

Not really, but that was fast. I was thinking we might get a disgruntled employee, but after time had passed and bills had started to pinch rather than so suddenly.

[Justice]

Looks like it was a woman (possibly with a child) who tried to get past one of the car barriers that surround the streets adjacent to the White House (I've heard Constitution AND Pennsylvania, not sure which). Secret Service approached, gunshots MAY have been fired at which point she tried to flee before ending up getting trapped at the Capitol. The injured officer was not shot, but rather hit by the car. I'm guessing the shots were from the Capitol Police in this case. Conflicting reports as to whether she was killed or just wounded.

[Dalton]

The woman is dead; a 1 year old in the car is OK

[Broomstick]

Apparently all shots fired were from the police.

Although a car is potentially a deadly weapon, I have to wonder if my spouse's theory is the truth: he thinks the woman might have panicked, particularly when the guns came out, and tried to flee out of fear.

Or maybe something else.

[Dalton]

Reports indicate she had a history of mental illness. NBC News

[Agent Fisher]

Just saw video of it, she's up against barricades, Capitol Police Officers or Secret Service Uniformed Officers are trying to open the car and get her out, she slams on the gas in reverse, slams a cruiser, and then hauls off, almost hitting the officers multiple times.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Reportedly two officers injured. An article on CNN claimed one officer had to be freed with the jaws of life, presumably from the damaged police cruiser that's also been reported. From the video I couldn't see any officers being hit by the car, but that doesn't mean anything.

[Raw Shark]

NBC again, with some more details.

I particularly enjoy this gem, from her sister:

“That’s impossible. She works, she holds a job”

I imagine that she's somewhat distraught there, but really, lady? Only the unemployed go batshit crazy?

[Broomstick]

I'd attribute a lot of that "gem" to being surprised and distraught, but yeah, there are some people who think that if you're functional enough to hold down a job you're OK. Which is not the case.

[Dalton]

I have heard claims that this woman thought Barack Obama was "stalking" her.

[Tanasinn]

NBC again, with some more details.

I particularly enjoy this gem, from her sister:

“That’s impossible. She works, she holds a job”

I imagine that she's somewhat distraught there, but really, lady? Only the unemployed go batshit crazy?

Rather, that if she were crazy, she wouldn't be able to do these things, is what her sister's saying.

[Grumman]

I have heard claims that this woman thought Barack Obama was "stalking" her.

Claims made without evidence by "anonymous sources" that coincidentally paint their organisation in a positive light should be viewed with suspicion. This one is no different.

[Dalton]

I have heard claims that this woman thought Barack Obama was "stalking" her.

Claims made without evidence by "anonymous sources" that coincidentally paint their organisation in a positive light should be viewed with suspicion. This one is no different.

Gee, no shit?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Are there any updates in this?
I am mostly curious if the police on sue have realesed any sort of statement on the actions taken.

[Broomstick]

The only update I've heard is that the woman was being treated for post-partum depression and had stopped taking medication.

The official line is that when she hit the barricades there was worry that this represented a possible car bomb or other terrorist attack about to occur, hence the use of deadly force.

[Replicant]

The only update I've heard is that the woman was being treated for post-partum depression and had stopped taking medication.

The official line is that when she hit the barricades there was worry that this represented a possible car bomb or other terrorist attack about to occur, hence the use of deadly force.

Does this mean that if your driving down Pennsylvania Avenue on your Toyota Corolla, the accelerator sticks causing you to jump the first barrier and your car to careen around as you panic that the USSS has every right to just gun you down in cold blood with a simple "better safe than sorry" attitude when it turns out to be a misunderstanding?

[AniThyng]

Gee it's almost as if she didn't deliberately reverse and run over an officer and continue driving...

In any case, damed if you do damed if you don't because if it really was a bomb people will wail about why the officers didn't stop her earlier.

[Simon_Jester]

In this case, the evidence suggests that she rammed police cars and tried to run over police officers, or at least acted with homicidal negligence in terms of making sure she didn't ram police cars and run over cops. At which point it is basically self-defense for the cops; they do have a right to shoot someone who is actively trying to kill them, or by all appearances is doing so.

If you have completely lost control of your mind and/or your vehicle, in the presence of armed men, and your vehicle starts endangering the armed men's lives... you're going to get shot.

[If anyone wants more details on my sources for this I can provide it, but not right now, no time]



Also in general, if security guards are to be of any use at all, they have to have SOME discretion to shoot at people who appear to be attacking them. If they wait long enough, they may well be dead before they get a chance to defend themselves. So people acting abnormally, in ways that put lives in danger, should expect to be on the receiving end of violence from security around them. Seems fair to me.

[Broomstick]

The only update I've heard is that the woman was being treated for post-partum depression and had stopped taking medication.

The official line is that when she hit the barricades there was worry that this represented a possible car bomb or other terrorist attack about to occur, hence the use of deadly force.

Does this mean that if your driving down Pennsylvania Avenue on your Toyota Corolla, the accelerator sticks causing you to jump the first barrier and your car to careen around as you panic that the USSS has every right to just gun you down in cold blood with a simple "better safe than sorry" attitude when it turns out to be a misunderstanding?

Yes, basically that is the case.

I'm sorry, were you unclear on this before?

A car is a potentially lethal object. When it behaves in a threatening manner it will be treated as a threat. It's not like they randomly open fire daily on vehicles, but keep in mind she had already hit at least one officer with the car. If you start injuring police/SS yes, they are going to react with force. The White House and Capitol/Congress are considered important enough that yes, they will be defended with lethal force if threatened.

That said, even the most apparently justified self-defense discharge of a weapon by an officer of the law is, by SOP, reviewed. Every single one. No one thinks shooting a distraught/mentally ill mother of a toddler is a good thing. If she had simply crashed into the barrier and stopped there, preferably with her hands in the air, it is unlikely she would have been shot. The SS understands the concept of "accident". Hell, even though they're authorized to shoot to kill aircraft violating DC airspace they've never actually done that because the vast majority of time it's an accidental intrusion. However, when the lady in question starts crashing into other vehicles/people, drives away at high speed, then repeats the performance near another Very Important Location yes, she's going to be seen as a threat because she's acting in a threatening manner. If she's doing so because of mental illness that just makes it all the more tragic, but it doesn't automatically make the actions of the law officers wrong.

[Replicant]

The only update I've heard is that the woman was being treated for post-partum depression and had stopped taking medication.

The official line is that when she hit the barricades there was worry that this represented a possible car bomb or other terrorist attack about to occur, hence the use of deadly force.

Does this mean that if your driving down Pennsylvania Avenue on your Toyota Corolla, the accelerator sticks causing you to jump the first barrier and your car to careen around as you panic that the USSS has every right to just gun you down in cold blood with a simple "better safe than sorry" attitude when it turns out to be a misunderstanding?

Yes, basically that is the case.

I'm sorry, were you unclear on this before?

A car is a potentially lethal object. When it behaves in a threatening manner it will be treated as a threat. It's not like they randomly open fire daily on vehicles, but keep in mind she had already hit at least one officer with the car. If you start injuring police/SS yes, they are going to react with force. The White House and Capitol/Congress are considered important enough that yes, they will be defended with lethal force if threatened.

That said, even the most apparently justified self-defense discharge of a weapon by an officer of the law is, by SOP, reviewed. Every single one. No one thinks shooting a distraught/mentally ill mother of a toddler is a good thing. If she had simply crashed into the barrier and stopped there, preferably with her hands in the air, it is unlikely she would have been shot. The SS understands the concept of "accident". Hell, even though they're authorized to shoot to kill aircraft violating DC airspace they've never actually done that because the vast majority of time it's an accidental intrusion. However, when the lady in question starts crashing into other vehicles/people, drives away at high speed, then repeats the performance near another Very Important Location yes, she's going to be seen as a threat because she's acting in a threatening manner. If she's doing so because of mental illness that just makes it all the more tragic, but it doesn't automatically make the actions of the law officers wrong.

But in the end this woman was shot when her vehicle was hemmed in by something like 20 other vehicles and while she might be able to freak out further and ram her car back and forth she was not a threat to anyone.

Unless the articles I read were inaccurate. That is the problem with todays news cycle. Everyone is so quick to get out the breaking news that you can read about the same incident from a dozen sources and get 6 different stories.

[Broomstick]

Yes, which is why I try to reserve judgement until more details are forthcoming.

[NettiWelho]

In this case, the evidence suggests that she rammed police cars [...]

The police car crash was self-inflected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCu80iDid_Q

[Agent Fisher]

No, Netti, she also rammed cruisers when she was up against the bollards at the Capitol.


That was a cruiser getting clipped by the barricades as they were rising in the street.