Sharia court in Belgium?

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Sharia court in Belgium?

Post by Spekio »

An Islamic Sharia law court has been established in Antwerp, the second-largest city in Belgium.

The Sharia court is the initiative of a radical Muslim group called Sharia4Belgium. Leaders of the group say the purpose of the court is to create a parallel Islamic legal system in Belgium in order to challenge the state's authority as enforcer of the civil law protections guaranteed by the Belgian constitution.

The Sharia court, which is located in Antwerp's Borgerhout district, is "mediating" family law disputes for Muslim immigrants in Belgium.

The self-appointed Muslim judges running the court are applying Islamic law, rather than the secular Belgian Family Law system, to resolve disputes involving questions of marriage and divorce, child custody and child support, as well as all inheritance-related matters.

Unlike Belgian civil law, Islamic Sharia law does not guarantee equal rights for men and women; critics of the Sharia court say it will undermine the rights of Muslim women in marriage and education.

Legal experts say the Islamic court will also undercut the state's ability to investigate and prosecute perpetrators of so-called honor crimes. In 2007, for example, Belgium outlawed the practice of forced marriage. Those convicted of forcing someone into marriage by violence or coercion face a prison sentence of up to two years and a fine of up to €2,500 ($3,500). This law is likely to be undermined as Muslim marriage disputes come under the jurisdiction of the Sharia court.

Sharia4Belgium says the court in Antwerp will eventually expand its remit and handle criminal cases as well.

The Sharia4Belgium group consists of Islamists who are committed to bring everyone living in Belgium (including all non-Muslims) under the submission of Islamic Sharia law.

Although Sharia4Belgium's website recently was shut down by the Belgian authorities, a partial archive of the site can be found at the WayBack Machine. There Sharia4Belgium issues an invitation-cum-threat calling for all Belgians to convert to Islam and to submit to Sharia law or face the consequences. The text says:

"It is now 86 years since the fall of the Islamic Caliphate. The tyranny and corruption in this country [Belgium] has prevailed; we go from one scandal to another: Economic crises, paedophilia, crime, growing Islamophobia, etc."

"As in the past we [Muslims] have saved Europe from the dark ages, we now plan to do the same. Now we have the right solution for all crises and this is the observance of the divine law, namely Sharia. We call to implement Sharia in Belgium."

"Sharia is the perfect system for humanity. In 1300 years of the Islamic state we knew only order, welfare and the protection of all human rights. We know that Spain, France and Switzerland knew their best times under Sharia. In these 1300 years, 120 women were raped, which is equal to 120 women a day in Europe. There were barely 60 robberies recorded in 1300 years."

"As a result, we invite the royal family, parliament, all the aristocracy and every Belgian resident to submit to the light of Islam. Save yourself and your children of the painful punishment of the hereafter and grant yourself eternal life in paradise."

A cache of the background image for the Sharia4Belgium website has the black flag of jihad flying above the Belgian Parliament. Up until recently the Sharia4Belgium Youtube page (also shut down) was used to incite Muslims to Jihad, or Holy War. The group had posted videos with titles like, "Jihad Is Obligatory," "Encouraging Jihad," "Duelling & Guerrilla Warfare," and "The Virtues of Martyrdom."

Sharia4Belgium is linked to Anjem Choudary, a Sharia court judge based in London. Choudary, who was the leader of a group called Islam4UK before it was banned by British anti-terrorism authorities, believes in the primacy of Islam over all other faiths and has long campaigned for Islamic law to be implemented in all of Britain.

Choudary is also a leader of the British Islamic Emirates Project, a campaign to turn twelve British cities – including what he calls "Londonistan" – into independent Islamic states. The so-called Islamic Emirates would function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Islamic Sharia law and operate entirely outside British jurisprudence.

The guardians of European multiculturalism say Choudary is harmless and, in any event, does not represent the majority of Muslims living in Europe. But he has a considerable following in Britain and elsewhere, and his views on the role of Sharia in Britain are far more popular than many will admit.

For example, at least 85 Islamic Sharia courts are now operating in Britain, almost 20 times as many as previously believed, according to a study by Civitas, a London-based think tank. The report shows that scores of unofficial tribunals and councils regularly apply Islamic law to resolve domestic, marital and business disputes, and that many Sharia courts are operating in mosques. It warns of a "creeping" acceptance of Sharia principles in British law.

In an interview with the Belgian newspaper De Standaard (English translation here), Choudary said he would help launch Sharia4Belgium to prevent Muslim immigrants from integrating into Belgian society. "Belgium has an extensive Muslim population, especially in the cities. I therefore plan to come to Belgium myself in the coming weeks, or send a delegation to establish a branch of the organization," he said.

When asked if he wanted to convince Belgians to convert to Islam and to implement Sharia law, Choudary replied: "The implementation of Sharia will happen in one of the following four ways: either the majority of the population converts to Islam; or a foreign Islamic power conquers the country; or there will be a rebellion against the oppression of the Muslim people; or the Muslims will overthrow the ruling regime. Society will be united by Islam."

In November 2010, Belgian police arrested three members of Sharia4Belgium in a counter-terrorism sting operation. The suspects were using the Ansar al-Mujahideen Jihadist website to plan an attack on Belgian soil.

Muslims make up around 10% of Antwerp's population, and the city has long been a hotbed of radical Islam. According to some estimates, more than half of the mosques in Antwerp are controlled by Muslim extremists groups, including the fundamentalist Deobandi sect, which promotes Jihad and hatred for Western society.

Vlaams Belang, a conservative political party that rejects multiculturalism and wants strict limits on Muslim immigration, has demanded that Belgian authorities shut down the Sharia court in Antwerp.

In an interview with Het laatste Nieuws, Belgium's most popular newspaper, Vlaams Belong leader Filip Dewinter says the Sharia court "is yet another step toward the Islamization of Antwerp." Dewinter says the constitution gives the secular courts a monopoly on settling disputes. "You certainly cannot have a parallel system of Sharia courts developing judgements based on principles that are at odds with the values of our constitutional democracy," he says.
Source: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2425/ ... -law-court

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So this popped up in my timeline. It seems bizarre, to say the least, but considering religion.... So, is this true?
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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What the fuck. Seriously. I'm not sure what else to say.

Except this: the "guardians of European multiculturalism" say it's harmless, when he (Choudary) expressly wants to stop Muslims integrating into Belgian society and wants to make London a separate Muslim enclave.

This is just surreal.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Is it "true" in the sense that such organizations exist? Presumably.

Is it "true" in the sense that the organizations have any legal permission to operate? Not necessarily. Without such authority, they basically exist only until such time as the state finds the courage to do something about it.

Any idiot can claim they are a court, but there are laws against trying to impersonate officers of the court, or trying to impose penalties such as fines or imprisonment on a person without having actual legal authority. I'm sure the Sharia4Islam nuts could be prosecuted under the Belgian version of such statutes.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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But will anyone dare to challenge them? And risk being vilified as a racist and enemy of Islam? I can't see any current UK politicians doing that.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

Post by Spekio »

Simon_Jester wrote:Is it "true" in the sense that such organizations exist? Presumably.

Is it "true" in the sense that the organizations have any legal permission to operate? Not necessarily. Without such authority, they basically exist only until such time as the state finds the courage to do something about it.

Any idiot can claim they are a court, but there are laws against trying to impersonate officers of the court, or trying to impose penalties such as fines or imprisonment on a person without having actual legal authority. I'm sure the Sharia4Islam nuts could be prosecuted under the Belgian version of such statutes.
I know that. What I mean is that they are so open doing so that it reads as tabloid sensasionalist drivel.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Why the fuck exactly is anyone taking seriously the writings of a bunch of right-wing pro-israel islamophobic asshats in the employ of an institute founded by such non-partisan luminaries as John Bolton, neocon extraordinaire?

That article is pure drivel and you would be better off looking up factual sources on the subject.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Edi wrote:Why the fuck exactly is anyone taking seriously the writings of a bunch of right-wing pro-israel islamophobic asshats in the employ of an institute founded by such non-partisan luminaries as John Bolton, neocon extraordinaire?

That article is pure drivel and you would be better off looking up factual sources on the subject.
...Because I had no idea who they were or if it were reliable, so I just asked this forum? This showed up on ATEA (Brazil largest atheist/agnostic association) FB page, and I was baffled, since what the article described was a civil war in the making. Could you point me in the direction of reliabe source on the subject?
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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The article is from 2011. Sharia4Belgium dissolved itself back in 2012. They were a bunch of hardcore Salafist nutballs, the Belgian authorities treated them as the potentially dangerous lunatic fringe they were, and now they don't exist as an organization anymore. You'll find idiots like this in many European nations, but unlike what some right-wing politicians would like you to believe, they are not a genuine threat to democracy. In the grand scheme of things they're just not a big deal.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Spekio wrote:
Edi wrote:Why the fuck exactly is anyone taking seriously the writings of a bunch of right-wing pro-israel islamophobic asshats in the employ of an institute founded by such non-partisan luminaries as John Bolton, neocon extraordinaire?

That article is pure drivel and you would be better off looking up factual sources on the subject.
...Because I had no idea who they were or if it were reliable, so I just asked this forum? This showed up on ATEA (Brazil largest atheist/agnostic association) FB page, and I was baffled, since what the article described was a civil war in the making. Could you point me in the direction of reliabe source on the subject?
Twenty seconds of googling the source would have given you plenty of material on who they are and what their agenda is. Anytime you see an article about how the Islamic takeover of Europe and imposition of Sharia law is imminent, it's fucknuts like the Gatestone Institute, Jihadwatch, Gates of Vienna blog, whatever organization Pamela Geller is affliated with at the time and other similar assholes and morons who can be generously characterized as having at best a tenuous grasp of reality.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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They sound like a handful of whack-jobs, since this "court system" of theirs doesn't even have the standing to arbitrate disputes between two consenting parties like what the Islamic and Jewish mediators can do in Great Britain.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Eternal_Freedom wrote:But will anyone dare to challenge them? And risk being vilified as a racist and enemy of Islam? I can't see any current UK politicians doing that.
Point one, they are not, and never were, in the UK. Point two, yes they would, because one thing a government is not likely to tolerate is the creation of separate parallel governments inside its own territory.

It all comes down to a rather Freudian theory of politics. Certain people on the right reason as follows:

1) The government is too far to the left.
2) Left-ness equals wimpiness.
3) Therefore, the government is feeble and emasculated.
4) Therefore it will passively sit still and allow absurd bullshit to happen and contest its basic sovereignty, because it does not have enough agency to do anything about it- it will just sit there and let its enemies carve it like a roast.

This explains "sovereign citizen" movements in the US, secessionist movements in same, and "THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in Europe. Where the European Muslims are a useful standin because they're the only faction within the existing European social order that doesn't have much vested interest in keeping things the way they are, so that the idea of them rebelling against the existing order becomes a credible threat for people who basically like the way their society works and are just trying to find something to be afraid of.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Simon_Jester wrote:"THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in Europe.
What "Muslims are coming" hysteria in Europe? There is a very significant "Teh mooozlems hordes are overrunning Europe!!!!!!1eleven!" hysteria in the right wing professional pants-pissing community in the US, but don't confuse that with how Europe feels.

There are anti-Muslim parties and groups also in Europe and there is some concern about integrating Muslim immigrants and some countries have serious problems with their Muslim minorities due to past policy mistakes, but most of the hysteria about them is firmly from the US side of the pond.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Edi wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:"THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in Europe.
What "Muslims are coming" hysteria in Europe? There is a very significant "Teh mooozlems hordes are overrunning Europe!!!!!!1eleven!" hysteria in the right wing professional pants-pissing community in the US, but don't confuse that with how Europe feels.

There are anti-Muslim parties and groups also in Europe and there is some concern about integrating Muslim immigrants and some countries have serious problems with their Muslim minorities due to past policy mistakes, but most of the hysteria about them is firmly from the US side of the pond.
I actually have seen some hysteria-induced posts about Muslim horde overrunning us all if we aren't careful from European side, but by far they are minority of a minority and they restrict themselves screaming their heads off in websites and news comment sections, because nobody takes them seriously elsewhere (or if they do, they are a fringe political group to begin with). Mostly the most anti-Muslim major parties seem to be (at least in public) concerned about how to integrate immigrants, what are the pros and cons of immigration and how to avoid the more negative aspects of getting a lot of immigrants (and then dumbing them into few city blocks so that they don't get much of a chance of integration and a natural ghetto is formed). Then there's of course nutjobs of Hommafoorumi (a Finnish website full of rather... right-wing ideas and a strong, downright racist, resistance to immigration and Islam) and, apparently, Muutos 2011 political party (their first leader left the movement after he felt they had become too anti-Muslim; apparently he was right, judging by some of the shenanigans they have been up to) with their brand new MP (who was kicked out from his former Party, the True Finns, after his guest to the Parliament did a Nazi salute and even the True Finns couldn't stomach him any more).
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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As you say, those panicking about it this side of the pond are a fringe minority while the political leadership in Europe is aware of problems involved with immigration and cultural clashes, and are dealing with the issues. The anti-Muslim hysteria is a far more pronounced problem in the US.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Even in the US, the actual government seems to be handling things reasonably well. The professional shrieker community is relatively small- it mostly boils down to a minority of bigots, plus a part of the paid intelligentsia of the right-wing movement that tries to provide an intellectual veneer to the overall racism.
Edi wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:"THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in Europe.
What "Muslims are coming" hysteria in Europe? There is a very significant "Teh mooozlems hordes are overrunning Europe!!!!!!1eleven!" hysteria in the right wing professional pants-pissing community in the US, but don't confuse that with how Europe feels.

There are anti-Muslim parties and groups also in Europe and there is some concern about integrating Muslim immigrants and some countries have serious problems with their Muslim minorities due to past policy mistakes, but most of the hysteria about them is firmly from the US side of the pond.
Would you cease to have a problem with my actual argument if I'd said "THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in or regarding Europe?
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Yes, that would have been better. The difference between the shrieker communities in Europe and US is that in the US they actually have tangible political influence to a degree large enough to cause trouble.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

Post by madd0ct0r »

well, they cause trouble in the UK too, but mostly in scuffles outside pubs and mosques. The rise of UKIP is partly linked to it though.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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The trouble for me is this: I know plenty of Muslims who are really good people, in fact almost all of the Muslims I've interacted with beyond a simple "hello" have all been friendly, kind, and generally a credit to Islam.

So It is disconcerting when you see reports of Muslim leaders talking about not wanting to intergrate into society. I thought that was the whole point of immigration and multiculturalism? Intergration clearly works based on the examples I've seen.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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In a number of European countries however immigrants weren't integrated when they came here in the '50s, '60s and '70s: in many cases they were brought here as cheap labour, they were expected to vamoose it back home after a bit, and so they their insular communities were more or less ignored for decades. I mean, why make an effort to integrate them when they'll eventually leave, right? Except they didn't leave, their kids oftentimes grew up in essentially segregated communities that barely had any ties to mainstream society, they faced all kinds of casual racism and whatnot... And then after a few decades of that some politicians wonder why some second- or third-generation immigrants won't integrate.

This isn't always the case, many immigrants in fact did integrate, but as far as I can tell almost all integration-related trouble in Western Europe can be traced back to the fact that in many cases insufficient effort to prevent ghettoization was made. If you leave poor immigrant communities to fester and rot for a few decades it's no wonder you end up with a bunch of people who don't feel at home in your society and may take up all kinds of unwholesome ideologies that make them feel like they belong by blaming you for their circumstance.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Siege has the right of it. It is beyond bizarre that only now we care about stuff like "hey, why do we not care about them skipping biology and swimming lessons?" or actually care to integrate them politically.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Edi wrote:Yes, that would have been better. The difference between the shrieker communities in Europe and US is that in the US they actually have tangible political influence to a degree large enough to cause trouble.
Honestly, the trouble they directly cause is quite small, unless the shrieking itself is counted as trouble.
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Re: Sharia court in Belgium?

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Edi wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:"THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING" hysteria in Europe.
What "Muslims are coming" hysteria in Europe? There is a very significant "Teh mooozlems hordes are overrunning Europe!!!!!!1eleven!" hysteria in the right wing professional pants-pissing community in the US, but don't confuse that with how Europe feels.

There are anti-Muslim parties and groups also in Europe and there is some concern about integrating Muslim immigrants and some countries have serious problems with their Muslim minorities due to past policy mistakes, but most of the hysteria about them is firmly from the US side of the pond.
Who do you think the Daily Mail's primary audience is? Hint: it's a newsletter based in Britain.
Thanas wrote:Siege has the right of it. It is beyond bizarre that only now we care about stuff like "hey, why do we not care about them skipping biology and swimming lessons?" or actually care to integrate them politically.
Better late than never, I suppose...

Also, damn right he does.
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