Patriotic, Republican Science

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Metahive
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Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Metahive »

American Republicans wish to put science behind "national interest".
Republicans put 'national interest' requirement on US science agency

Proposed bill would require the National Science Foundation to justify awards using criteria including economic competitiveness and national defence.
by Sarah Zhang

Key members of the US House of Representatives are calling for the National Science Foundation (NSF) to justify every grant it awards as being in the “national interest”. The proposal, which is included in a draft bill from the Republican-led House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology that was obtained by Nature, would force the NSF to document how its basic-science grants benefit the country.

The requirement is similar to one in a discussion draft circulated in April by committee chairman Lamar Smith (Republican, Texas). At the time, scientists raised concerns that ‘national interest’ was defined much too narrowly. The current draft bill provides a more expansive definition that includes six goals: economic competitiveness, health and welfare, scientific literacy, partnerships between academia and industry, promotion of scientific progress and national defence.

Those criteria are in line with a ‘broader impacts’ assessment that the NSF, based in Arlington, Virginia, already requires scientists to include in their grant applications. But the bill, called the Frontiers in Innovation, Research, Science, and Technology (FIRST) Act of 2013, would place an extra burden on NSF programme directors by requiring them to publish justification for each grant award on the foundation’s website. In a time of tight budgets, says a Republican committee aide, research with a high return on investment should be prioritized. “It is the role of a government official who is using federal funds to provide the justification,” says the aide.

But former NSF programme director Scott Collins, a biologist at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, questions whether the national-interest provision is an appropriate use of NSF staff time. “Conducting cutting-edge science is clearly in the national interest,” he says.

Others say that predicting the broader impacts of basic research is tantamount to gazing into a crystal ball. John Bruer, president of the James S. McDonnell Foundation in St Louis, Missouri, and former co-chair of an NSF task force that examined broader impacts, thinks that the requirement should be eliminated. He says that scientists often make something up to fill that space on NSF grant applications because they cannot predict what will come of their work. “All scientists know it’s nonsense,” says Bruer.

Budget numbers are conspicuously absent from the draft bill, which would reauthorize the America COMPETES Act of 2007, a key funding bill for the NSF and other agencies that support physical-sciences research. That bill, reauthorized for the first time in 2010, aimed to double the budgets of the NSF, the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg, Maryland, and the Department of Energy’s Office of Science in Washington DC.

Although the original America COMPETES Act was enacted with broad support, Congress has never appropriated enough money to match the authorization. And hopes for boosting US science funding have been dashed both by the government shutdown in October and by sequestration, which incurred across-the-board budget cuts that began in March.

With the Republican-controlled House and the Democrat-controlled Senate still negotiating a budget for the remainder of the 2014 fiscal year, the FIRST bill avoids funding issues and focuses on policy. It emphasizes the pursuit of translational research in federal science agencies, and partnership with private funding sources. That does not sit well with the NSF’s core mission of basic science, says Michael Lubell, director of public affairs at the American Physical Society in Washington DC. The bill would also ban NSF grantees who deliberately misrepresent data from receiving new NSF awards for 10 years.

Some of the bill’s controversial prescriptions may not survive an encounter with a Senate version of the reauthorization. The House committee will hold a hearing on the draft bill on 13 November.
http://www.nature.com/news/republicans- ... cy-1.14102

Hey, it totally worked when Stalin made ideological purity a requirement for science, right? It totally didn't backfire on the USSR when ideologically pure charlatans like Trofim Lyssenko managed to pollute soviet science with abject nonsense and set it back for decades, right? Truly, the Republican party is learning from the best!
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Siege »

I'm not convinced this is a case of ideological purity nuttery. A not completely dissimilar thing happened here where an otherwise quite rational government decided to implement a similar priority on research with 'high return on investment' to universities and research institutions that wished to make use of government subsidies. I think it betrays a fundamental ignorance of how scientific research actually works. It's understandable that in times when money is tight one might want to take a critical look at what projects one's spending grants on and maybe cutting some of the more out-there projects, but at the same time science isn't a game of Civilization where you get to pick your next research because you can see it'll unlock the Internet in three steps. I think that's where these policies go wrong: there's an assumption that researchers know in advance what useful (side)effects their research might yield whilst in actuality with quite a bit of cutting-edge science I doubt that's the case precisely because it's investigating things we don't know about yet.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Treating science like business, IE only allowing concentration on narrow fields with short term benefit is what I call very ideological. I can already foresee what kind of research the American Taliban would favor, that which leads to better killtech and that which makes rich old white farts live longer. Again, this sort of approach was practiced by certain other nations, like the aforementioned USSR, Nazi Germany and Mao's China. In the latter case it lead to the great famine of the Great Leap Forward (well, together with basic economical ignorance and an unwillingness to admit mistakes, sound familiar?).

US science is top notch at the moment. What do they say, "If it's not broken, don't fix it" and "don't kill the goose that lays golden eggs"!
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Thanas »

Jesus Christ, Metahive. Can you complete a post without throwing the words "American Taliban" around and equivocating the GOP to Nazi Germany? Or are you intent on killing any sort of discussion? You should do well to pattern your posts after someone like Siege more. (Please do not come back with "BUT I AM JUST TELLING THE TRUTH" because that is besides the point. I am sure someone as intelligent as you can manage to express your thoughts without calling the other side Nazis at every turn)


Now, to the topic at hand, in my personal (albeit limited) academic expertise on the postgrad level it seems that "national return" or "interest" are merely buzzwords for cutting back on science which does not promise publicitiy or immediate financial return (terms which have become interchangeable in today's academic world). This also finds variation in the popular sentiment of "kill the liberal arts, what are those time wasters good for" or "if you want to do science, what is the harm in presenting yourself to sponsors and have them pay for your research while the uni still takes full credit for it?"
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Metahive »

I haven't called the GOP Nazis, just pointed out that their policy proposal was practiced by certain other countries to disastrous effect, among them Nazi Germany. You'll have noticed that I elaborated primarily on the USSR and Maoist China comparisons. You are beating down a strawmen argument.

And what's the problem with expressing my extreme displeasure at the GOP and calling the American Taliban? Why's that "killing discussion"? Is it wrong to insult political parties all of a sudden?
Thanas wrote: (Please do not come back with "BUT I AM JUST TELLING THE TRUTH" because that is besides the point. I am sure someone as intelligent as you can manage to express your thoughts without calling the other side Nazis at every turn)
Please collect all my posts where I have "called the other side Nazis at every turn". If you wish to call out what you think is some unsavory posting pattern on my behalf then I want to see evidence for that first because I reject your accusation.

The last time I drew equivalence between America and the Taliban was when talking about the justifications given for Signature Drone Strikes and the Taliban assaulting Malala Yousafzai. Indeed, my main target of criticism when it comes to the US in the last year or so was the Obama administration which isn't GOP.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think Siege has the core of it. If your concept of science is limited to something like "scientists invent things in labs while wearing weird white coats," you may well honestly expect that any given scientist can explain the exact purpose of their research and what positive side-effects it will have. Or you may assume that scientific decisions are made exactly like all other decisions, with a payoff weighed against a cost. Which is sort of true, except that the payoff is usually measured in terms of knowledge, we're often not sure which knowledge will come out, and that "prove X doesn't work" counts as knowledge.

No business trying to make a profit would fund a study likely to prove that homeopathic pills don't work, because either:
1) They are a scam trying to sell homeopathic pills and it would defeat the purpose, or
2) They are not a scam, and consider it so stupidly obvious that the pills don't do anything that it's not worth spending millions of dollars. To their credit, they actually DO want valid science to base their products on, but aren't going to bother with anything they know won't tell them new information that directly helps them design a new product.

But if no one does such studies, then how do we formally rule out homeopathic pills as medicine? To identify what is NOT working, someone has to step up and volunteer to "waste money" on a study that tells us something the average wag in the street would say we already knew. I.e., the sort of stuff the Ig Nobel prizes are handed out for, like:

"Discovering that the mechanism by which onions make people cry is more complicated than we thought."
"Confirming that people who are drunk also think they are attractive."
"Studying the dynamics of sloshing liquid, to find what happens when people carry cups of coffee."
"Discovering that organizations would become more efficient if they promoted people at random."

No organization would fund those on the basis of expected reward (especially that last one). And yet all of them have indirect applications potentially- understanding the psychology of drunkards, the dynamics of liquids sloshing around moving containers, the biology of tears and onions, and the secrets of successful organization. We can easily think of reasons to want to know those things, even though the studies we've seen so far on them seem trivial.
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In my opinion, part of the irony here is that some of the types of science the sponsors of the bill like the least would probably have the easiest time writing a 'justification' section: "Studying the extinction of animal species helps us figure out how to not have our country turn into a desolate wasteland." If stopping your purple mountains' majesty and fruited plains from turning into a wasteland isn't in the national interest, I don't know what is.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Metahive »

Simon_Jester wrote:In my opinion, part of the irony here is that some of the types of science the sponsors of the bill like the least would probably have the easiest time writing a 'justification' section: "Studying the extinction of animal species helps us figure out how to not have our country turn into a desolate wasteland." If stopping your purple mountains' majesty and fruited plains from turning into a wasteland isn't in the national interest, I don't know what is.
Let's be clear, this is a Big Business Bill. If it's the environment vs. Big Business' dear wish to ravenously exploit said environment who do you think is going to win? The environment isn't paying all those generous campaign donations to the ruling parties.

ETA:
What I actually do find ironic about this is that the GOP calls itself the party of small government. Well, this bill is many things, but small government it probably ain't.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Metahive wrote:I haven't called the GOP Nazis, just pointed out that their policy proposal was practiced by certain other countries to disastrous effect, among them Nazi Germany.
No it was not. The reason Lysenko was such a disaster is because the Soviet Union wasn't doing what is being proposed here. If nothing else, you should be able to comprehend that refusing to spend finite taxpayer funds on your research is not the same as having you executed.
Simon_Jester wrote:No business trying to make a profit would fund a study likely to prove that homeopathic pills don't work, because either:
1) They are a scam trying to sell homeopathic pills and it would defeat the purpose, or
2) They are not a scam, and consider it so stupidly obvious that the pills don't do anything that it's not worth spending millions of dollars. To their credit, they actually DO want valid science to base their products on, but aren't going to bother with anything they know won't tell them new information that directly helps them design a new product.

But if no one does such studies, then how do we formally rule out homeopathic pills as medicine?
That seems like the sort of study that would be easy to justify:

Step 1. Hypothesis: Homeopathic medicine provides a cheap, effective way of treating such and such an illness.
Step 2. You accept the grant and conduct the study.
Step 3. Conclusion: It doesn't.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Siege »

Metahive wrote:What I actually do find ironic about this is that the GOP calls itself the party of small government. Well, this bill is many things, but small government it probably ain't.
How is it not? The National Science Foundation is a United States government agency. Curtailing what federal agencies can spend taxpayer money on is minimizing government activities, i.e. trending toward small government. I disagree with the way they go about it and indeed with libertarian minimal state ideals, but if the Republicans' belief is that the free market really ought to pay for this research itself and that if the government is going to waste taxpayer money on it anyway then at least it shouldn't be spent on research that's unlikely to make its money back, then I must conclude that this bill appears ideologically consistent with that belief.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Metahive »

Grumman wrote:
Metahive wrote:I haven't called the GOP Nazis, just pointed out that their policy proposal was practiced by certain other countries to disastrous effect, among them Nazi Germany.
No it was not. The reason Lysenko was such a disaster is because the Soviet Union wasn't doing what is being proposed here. If nothing else, you should be able to comprehend that refusing to spend finite taxpayer funds on your research is not the same as having you executed.
Let me get this straight, are you saying the USSR fell behind scientifically because they were too liberal and magnanimous in their science spending? As for "limited funds", meh, you do know that science spending in the US right now isn't really all that big a slice on the household spending cake, right? If you want to really save money, start with that fucking bloated military first!
Siege wrote:How is it not? The National Science Foundation is a United States government agency. Curtailing what federal agencies can spend taxpayer money on is minimizing government activities, i.e. trending toward small government. I disagree with the way they go about it and indeed with libertarian minimal state ideals, but if the Republicans' belief is that the free market really ought to pay for this research itself and that if the government is going to waste taxpayer money on it anyway then at least it shouldn't be spent on research that's unlikely to make its money back, then I must conclude that this bill appears ideologically consistent with that belief.
This bill requires the NSF to waste their time to defend whatever projects they are currently running as servicing national interests. How's putting such ideological requirements on people being "small" government? They've already been busy cutting science spending for years, why the need to put in a "patriotic" leash as well?
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Grumman »

Metahive wrote:
Grumman wrote:
Metahive wrote:I haven't called the GOP Nazis, just pointed out that their policy proposal was practiced by certain other countries to disastrous effect, among them Nazi Germany.
No it was not. The reason Lysenko was such a disaster is because the Soviet Union wasn't doing what is being proposed here. If nothing else, you should be able to comprehend that refusing to spend finite taxpayer funds on your research is not the same as having you executed.
Let me get this straight, are you saying the USSR fell behind scientifically because they were too liberal and magnanimous in their science spending?
I guess I was wrong, you can't comprehend that allowing your pet researcher to have his critics murdered is not the same thing as requiring that taxpayer money be spent on research in fields relevant to the goal of improving people's lives.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Metahive wrote:This bill requires the NSF to waste their time to defend whatever projects they are currently running as servicing national interests. How's putting such ideological requirements on people being "small" government? They've already been busy cutting science spending for years, why the need to put in a "patriotic" leash as well?
The National Science Foundation issues grants in response to proposals from the research community; these proposals already need to be (and are) reviewed by the NSF, presumably based on whatever citeria the National Science Board sets. Therefore the only thing this bill changes is the criteria by which proposals are judged. It is unlikely this will result in significantly more time wasted on the NSF's part because one way or the other it's going to have to be determined what to spend the money on.

Looking into this a little further it appears that currently the NSF's director, deputy director, and the 24 members of the National Science Board are appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the United States Senate, both of which as we all know currently controlled by the Democrats. I suspect therefore that this bill is mostly an attempt by the Republicans to wrest some modicum of control over an institute they heretofore had no control over. That to me confirms this bill has nothing to do with science and everything with the NSF's multi-billion dollar budget.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Thanas »

Metahive wrote:I haven't called the GOP Nazis, just pointed out that their policy proposal was practiced by certain other countries to disastrous effect, among them Nazi Germany. You'll have noticed that I elaborated primarily on the USSR and Maoist China comparisons. You are beating down a strawmen argument.
And those comparisons are just as ludicrous.
And what's the problem with expressing my extreme displeasure at the GOP and calling the American Taliban? Why's that "killing discussion"? Is it wrong to insult political parties all of a sudden?
"You/the party you support are contemptible commie/Nazi-like asshole who cares about nothing but killing people and other heinous stuff. Now discuss with me."

Get my point?
Please collect all my posts where I have "called the other side Nazis at every turn". If you wish to call out what you think is some unsavory posting pattern on my behalf then I want to see evidence for that first because I reject your accusation.
I am not going to trawl through your posting history as I don't care that much. I am however going to point out that it has come to mine and to several other posters attention that you are pretty belligerent whenever you post. My advice is to take it down a notch and be more civil.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Mr Bean »

Grumman wrote:
Metahive wrote: Let me get this straight, are you saying the USSR fell behind scientifically because they were too liberal and magnanimous in their science spending?
I guess I was wrong, you can't comprehend that allowing your pet researcher to have his critics murdered is not the same thing as requiring that taxpayer money be spent on research in fields relevant to the goal of improving people's lives.
:lol: Thank you Gruman that made my morning.

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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Now, to the topic at hand, in my personal (albeit limited) academic expertise on the postgrad level it seems that "national return" or "interest" are merely buzzwords for cutting back on science which does not promise publicitiy or immediate financial return (terms which have become interchangeable in today's academic world). This also finds variation in the popular sentiment of "kill the liberal arts, what are those time wasters good for" or "if you want to do science, what is the harm in presenting yourself to sponsors and have them pay for your research while the uni still takes full credit for it?"
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Treating science like business, IE only allowing concentration on narrow fields with short term benefit is what I call very ideological.
Due to funding not keeping up with the cost of technology, budget cuts that force universities to rely on overhead rates (dont ask... ), and the Red Queen nightmare that is getting tenure etc, we have been doing this for years. We use NSF grants to obtain equipment and money to fund a post-doc in order to finish the short term narrowly defined project that will net the maximum number of publications (which in turn, makes obtaining grant money easier) per unit time.

These criteria are the same criteria that the NSF uses to weed out applications. Here is how it works.

Step 1: My research involves the functional morphology of prey-capture and predatory behavior of dragonfly larvae, with an emphasis on intraguild predation (predators killing off the competition), and how this affects species occupancy in ponds (yes, baby dragonflies are aquatic. Yes they are the insect version of sharks. See image below)
http://6legs2many.files.wordpress.com/2 ... llulid.jpg

Step 2: My research is driven by pure curiosity, like most basic research. Sure it has OTHER applications (for example, Dragonflies are good bio-control agents for mosquitoes, and knowing which species are likely to exist in a given body of water and what their predatory efficacy on them is, might be good) but I dont actually give a damn.

Step 3: The people reviewing grants for the NSF are like me. They are not civil servants, they are scientists who rotate in on a volunteer basis. They dont give a shit either.

Step 4: The NSF gets WAY more grant applications than it can fund (funding rate is 5-10%). So it has to have some way of weeding out applications. Formatting requirements are one way. If something is misformatted, they toss it. The other way is through the "Broader Impacts Assessment". In other words "how does this research impact the broader community in ways other than knowledge generation?". Again, no one actually cares, but it is a hurdle we have to overcome. This things fall into several categories. I will provide several euphamisms we (and I) like to use, some of which, indicated with * were ones used by a former NSF program director in my department, while she rolled her eyes. Others, indicated with $ are actual problems with the broader impact assessment and what it can create. Each followed by an explanation.

economic competitiveness:
$ Not! Basic Research. Basically, unless you are an economist, it is not possible to predict how basic research will enhance economic competitiveness. If you can, you are not doing basic research anymore. What actually happens is that the researcher must put her or his fever dreams down on paper and make it look like they are not doing basic research, while everyone knows they are doing basic research. However, if someone wants to go this route, they have to have a positive track record of following through in some way. For example, by giving a talk at an industrial biomimicry conference. "Yes.... *shifty eyes*... my research on division of labor in ants TOTALLY shows that ants have the potential to be mimicked in the organization of human resources" (hint: No it really doesn't, but that is what the HUGE biomimicry symposium at ASU a few years ago was for. A huge dog and pony show for the NSF, interspersed with people who were not doing basic research)


health and welfare
* Curing Cancer. See above with biocontrol of mosquitoes and west nile. That one actually is real. The problem is, it is overused. If you are doing genetics research, you can often spin it into being relevant to cancer or genetic diseases. A good portion of the Nasonia Genome Annotation project was spun this way (I know because I worked on it). Nasonia is a genus of Parasitoid wasp (think: Xenomorph). However, because of their haplodiploid sex-determination system (males are haploid, and are produced from unfertilized eggs, females are diploid from fertilized eggs), they can be used in knockout studies very easily, or to study the propagation of genetic mutations within a population. My old lab was studying the evolution of speciation, but this is how it was spun to the NSF.


scientific literacy
* Engaging Preschoolers. Basically, you spin your research as being something you can involve schoolchildren in. This one is used a lot for wildlife research of various sorts, because what little kid is not fascinated by bringing snakes into the classroom, or watching tadpoles become frogs? None. They all like that stuff. So you basically promise to get kids to help out with specimen collection, or to do the elementary school lecture circuit, or put cool videos up on youtube. The Dance Your Dissertation competition is, if you read between the lines. Incidentally, they are funny so I will leave some examples.

Since when do slightly rapey fruit flies know how to break dance?

Dancing Hugging Hemoglobin Subunits. The early years.

partnerships between academia and industry
$ Conflicts of Interest. It is not basic research if you are being engaged in any sort of design of application where there may not be a conflict of interest. For example, if you are partnered with 3M to come up with a way to biomimic gecko feet as a sheet-adhesive, cool, but it is not basic research. However, if you are examining the effects of a pesticide on frogs.... oh dear.

promotion of scientific progress
Carl Saganing. This is not a bad thing. However, scientists are often not very charismatic, also it sees only physicists can pull it off. Biologists who pull it off usually go the route of Publicly Notorious Atheist, because our work often runs us straight into the problem of theodicy, and H.P. Lovecraft/H. R. Giger.

*Public Databases. These are a good thing. Basically put your raw data and ancillary observations up in either your own database, or one that has been preconfigured for public access. One of the reasons I stopped working with frogs altogether (there were several) is because unless you have a research station with 30 years of data on frog reproductive events and a cabin that grad students can live in right next to a pond for 8 weeks, if you go out looking for egg masses, you will fail (unless you get very lucky, and have paid a horde of 8 year olds to scour a pond-rich camping area in a national forest, yes I had permits). The only information you have about frog breeding is the season and what general conditions they breed in. For example, the best I can get from other sources is stuff like "Rana pipiens breeds in the spring and autumn during or following rain". But they are actually much more specific than that because the eggs are only eggs for 2-3 days, and masses of 10k eggs are a huge resource investment on the part of females and they want to make sure they optimize the timing of their breeding, while not putting themselves in physiological stress or high predation risk. The stars must align, Cthuhlu must arise from the depths.

What one actually needs is "Rana pipiens breeds in the spring and autumn, when temperature is between X and Y, atmospheric pressure is between M and N, Humidity is between A and B, during Such and Such moon phase. Under these conditions males will call. However, ovulation is triggered by [different set of conditions] and breeding must occur within W-Z weeks after the ovulation conditions, while male calling conditions are met, otherwise females will reabsorb her eggs"

This sort of information needs to be available. The problem is, it takes years of work by a LOT of people to get this done for one species. It needs to be a concerted effort, and one research team does Jack and Shit toward it. Someone COULD collate everything if a lot of research groups did it, but they would need to know the databases are there, and where they are. There are only a few such databases that are well known enough to matter, and most of these are run by the feds, specifically the NIH for gene sequences and data like that, and the USGS. There are a few more run at the state level, mostly with geological and hydrological information like a registry of vernal pools in Pennsylvania.

national defence
Why Not the DoD? Seriously. You dont have to design a better killbot to qualify. Lots of research in psychology, biology, and physics has nothing to do with designing better ways to kill people that the DoD can still find useful.

Psych: Research into the neurological basis of aggression and/or PTSD for example. Screening protocols to weed out sociopaths the military does not want.

Biology: In the ultimate irony, a lot of epidemiologists and infectious disease research is funded this way, leaving the rest of us to beat our heads against the wall that is the public health category. The reasons for this are obvious given the existence biological weapons and naturally occurring pandemic diseases. However, this is for the basic stuff. The genetics of HIV or... Ebola etc. The stuff with more direct medical applications (like finding a cure) gets shunted over to the NIH. The reason this happens is because the DoD has a LOT more money than the NSF.

Physics: Long-term investment in the toolkit of engineers.

The problem with this proposal is that it enshrines a semi-informal dog and pony show designed to cope with the NSF being way underfunded into law. A law wherein the reports from program directors will be scrutinized by the legislature, and if found to be against the political interests of certain lawmakers, will lead to funding cuts. The GOP has been doing this for decades. Screaming about how the NSF funds research into forced copulation in ducks etc. Now imagine the public health category. Someone is doing research on global climate change and the implications for the spread of disease carrying mosquitoes. They will make political hay about the climate change, and this will lead to more regulation and a priori research bans. Like they did in South Carolina, when the state banned the use of updated equations when projecting future sea level changes WRT civic planning. Or when the Harper Government made the census voluntary (to prevent social science research) and gag-ordered scientists.

Someone might say "Well you should not have the Dog and Pony Show!"

Of course we shouldn't. But it is the only way the system can work as it stands. Want to eliminate it? Stop cutting university budgets and treating universities like a business (more on that in a minute). Raise the funding for the NSF by say... 300% (again, more on that in a minute)

University Budgets and Grant Funding.
OK. How are these two connected? Overhead and Tenure. Here is how it works. Universities have a few sources of funding. Tuition, State budgeting, Alumni Donations and Endowments, and a portion of all incoming research funds from state and federal sources over a certain amount (small grants dont apply). Basically, whenever the NSF (or any other federal agency) funds your grant proposal, they tack on an amount of money equal to a rate negotiated between the NSF and the University (for example, if your proposal is for 100k, they pay out an additional 46% at my institution for a total of 146k). This is called Overhead. It is the contribution of the NSF to the running expenses of the university itself. Keeping the lights on, maintaining common equipment like the gene sequencer and SEM in the basement, and paying Draal who operates the Great Machine. That sort of thing.

In Ye Olden Days, this worked. It was OK. Universities had sufficient funding that these extra monies were nice, but not necessary. A professor could go his entire career without needing a HUGE grant from a federal agency so long as they published regularly. The publications got prestige for the university, which increased the ranking, which allowed the university to charge more for tuition without anyone giving a damn, which allowed the university to expand. The motive was not profit, but rather "we are badass, and shall show the world!", because at this time, the university upper administration came from the faculty rather than some dude with MBA. If students cheated on exams or simply failed, you could give them the boot because you were not operating as a business and the retention rate did not matter.

When funding from the state gets cut there are a few things that happen if it goes on long enough either with more cuts, or funding never gets returned to commensurate levels.

The first is a paradigm shift. Universities stop being a curiosity and prestige driven enterprise, and become a money-making enterprise out of a sense of self-preservation. Now, students have to be "retained" so they keep paying tuition. This means things like academic dishonesty is met with academic probation and failure is met with more academic probation. Students need to be attracted, not on the basis of badassery on the part of the faculty (though that is still some of it), but by the university providing a credentialing service, so there is grade inflation that is all-but-mandated. If grades are too low, TAs get in trouble, that sort of thing. This is bad, but secondary to my point.

Tuition gets raised. But there is a disincentive to do this because students get priced out and get pissed off. If the tuition is not accompanied by an increase in prestige, ranking goes down, you attract fewer students.

Increased reliance on Contract Faculty. Lecturers and others who are not on the Tenure Track and who can be dismissed and rehired as befits the whim of administrators, and who work for Much Less than tenured faculty, have no job security, high work loads, and no benefits. These are people with PhDs, or people who are in their PhD apprenticeships. Graduate students fall into this category, often taking on unpaid (or not-paid-extra) duties as teaching lab coordinators and other administrative tasks on top of doing their own research, taking their own courses, and teaching. This leads to more graduate students being taken in than the post-PhD tenure-track job market can support, leading to a self-perpetuating supply of Contract Faculty and post-doctoral researchers, forever chasing after the Holy Grail that is a tenure track position.

Alumni Whoring. Self Explanatory

Grants. All of the Grants. Aaaand they can "encourage" tenure-track faculty to apply for grants. By this I of course mean attaching a dollar value to obtaining tenure. By which I mean "if you dont bring in enough grant money, we will not give you tenure and find someone who WILL bring in grant money". How much is enough? That varies, but here we had one dude who failed to get tenure (despite actual protest from the entire faculty of the college of science) after bringing in a grant worth 1.5 million dollars. Though we DID just get a new provost (MBA holding son of a pig) who reflexively denied tenure to everyone who came up that year as a way of asserting his power. In general, several hundred thousand dollars over six years SHOULD be sufficient if the university hierarchy is stable and you are not at a really big institution. Which is no mean feat considering the funding rate on grants (again, 5-10%).

So because EVERY member of the faculty has to do this... WAY more grant applications come in than can ever be funded. Leading to the Dog and Pony Show.

I think we can all agree that this situation is Absolutely Fucked. So how to fix it? There are two solutions. One state, one federal (at least, these are the solutions that do not involve armed revolution or mass crucifixion in front of student unions).

State solution. Raise fucking taxes and increase education funding so that this clusterfuck does not need to be maintained anymore.

Federal Solution: Triple (or more) the budgets of the various granting bodies of the federal government. This seems like a lot, but it really isn't considering the size of the federal budget. A few tens of billions of dollars is chump change to the feds, and that is before you get into the Demand Side economics end of things, where even if someone deferred, that money will be made back by way of taxation on the economic stimulus from research spin offs, employment, supply and provisioning etc.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Pff, anyone who's played 4X games knows that you pull ahead by spending MORE money on research, not LESS.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Zeropoint wrote:Pff, anyone who's played 4X games knows that you pull ahead by spending MORE money on research, not LESS.
Yeah but then your one tank (hey all the money went to bee lining, no shields left) gets destroyed by 10 spear men and you're screwed.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Yeah but then your one tank (hey all the money went to bee lining, no shields left) gets destroyed by 10 spear men and you're screwed.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Thanas wrote:And those comparisons are just as ludicrous.
I actually don't consider them to be ludicrous. Just consider, those three states forced science to adhere to ideological restraints (no "bourgeois" science, no "jewish" science) and were all the worse off for it. This bill might not be of the same severity but I certainly consider it to be in the same spirit by putting science behind some nebulous ideological requirement to be servicing national interests.
"You/the party you support are contemptible commie/Nazi-like asshole who cares about nothing but killing people and other heinous stuff. Now discuss with me."

Get my point?
I will not pretend that I consider the modern GOP to be anything but contemptible scum. Isn't it better if people know where I stand from the outset?
I am not going to trawl through your posting history as I don't care that much. I am however going to point out that it has come to mine and to several other posters attention that you are pretty belligerent whenever you post. My advice is to take it down a notch and be more civil.
Saying I'm belligerent is one thing, saying I'm debating in bad faith by likening all my opponents to Nazis and other assorted Bad People(TM) is another. You'll surely agree that these are two different accusations. On this thread so far I haven't personally attacked even one single participant, so where's this belligerence? Is insulting the GOP really so far out on this board all of a sudden?
Grumman wrote:I guess I was wrong, you can't comprehend that allowing your pet researcher to have his critics murdered is not the same thing as requiring that taxpayer money be spent on research in fields relevant to the goal of improving people's lives.
And it's now apparent you don't comprehnend analogous situations. Analogies don't have to be perfectly congruent to be valid, just need to carry the same core similiarty and in this case it's that both the USSR and the GOP bill put science under bogus ideological restraints. Also I don't believe for a minute that "improving people's lives" is what they're actually after with this bill. Also, no word on cutting down military spending if it's really the national purse they're so concerned about?
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It seems that whenever someone seeks to slacken domestic spending, science and especially education are among the first to be considered. Is it because both are farily long term investitions and humanity as a whole isn't know for being particularly patient?
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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It seems that whenever someone seeks to slacken domestic spending, science and especially education are among the first to be considered. Is it because both are farily long term investitions and humanity as a whole isn't know for being particularly patient?
That is certainly some of it. The other is that we are weak as a constituency. We notice these things, but no one else is hurt by it, not directly. If you cut police forces, the police notice, they tell everyone, and people dont like feeling unsafe because police suffered layoffs. Cut our budget, and we make up for it using less-than-optimal means, and continue to operate. There are not many research scientists either so losing our vote does not matter. Lastly, when this creates massive structural problems within the entire university/research system that make the whole thing a nightmare, people like me STILL GO INTO ACADEMIA because we are not motivated by money as much. We are insane, and we would by and large do what we do for almost-free so long as our basic needs are met and we have just enough money to go to a movie or visit a national park now and then, and eat. I know graduate students who literally live as ascetics. They have a cot in the lab or in their office and they live there...
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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What I wonder is whether doing this, especially in the long-term, is actively sabotaging the research system the US has in the long run: you create a system where you end up paying for more useless static to be produced (what Alyrium calls "dog and pony shows") to get actual research done and accidentally makes the process more opaque to outsiders. They do so because I imagine that what is considered useful research by the NSF will have to be justified in a incredibly buzzword-filled explanation that is supposed to confuse a bureaucrat/ignorant politician enough for them to not start meddling further with the process.

The problem is that the people meddling and making these new rules confuse "scientist" and "inventor". They cannot be really educated because they don't have the knowledge-base for it, as the people usually making the bills are professional politicians. I don't think the problem is with the GOP per say, but with the nature of professional politicians in general who do not understand science.
Biologists who pull it off usually go the route of Publicly Notorious Atheist, because our work often runs us straight into the problem of theodicy, and H.P. Lovecraft/H. R. Giger.
I get why religion might come up when trying to explain (for example) how evolution works, but how does Lovecraft or Giger figure into it? Particularly Giger who's an a surrealist artist?
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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I get why religion might come up when trying to explain (for example) how evolution works, but how does Lovecraft or Giger figure into it? Particularly Giger who's an a surrealist artist?
H.R. Giger is best illustrated with pictures.

Image

Yes that is a marine isopod (an isopod, like the cute little pillbugs you find in your garden). Yes, it has eaten out and replaced the tongue of that fish.

Image

Yes, those are wasp larvae exploding out of a caterpillar who's insides they have eaten after their mother laid eggs inside it. Remind you of anything?

Image

These are bed bugs. Yes, they are mating. No, the female does not have an actual genital opening. Neither does the male have a penis with which to insert into a genital opening. Instead, he has a knife-like appendage that actually stabs into the her body cavity and deposits sperm, which then swim through her bodily fluids to her ovaries.

Image

This is someone's twin. A twin that was enveloped by their sibling mid development.

Following images NSFW or Sanity, involves parasitic infections in children.

Ascaris lumbricoides worms removed from the GI tract of a child

Same parasite. Infection is so severe they are coming out of this kid's nose

Do I need to draw a diagram? Nature is Fucked Up in a way that would make H.R. Giger proud, and in fact, inspires much of his art.

As for Lovecraft... Someone else put it better.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/kr/an_alien_god/
In a way, Darwin discovered God—a God that failed to match the preconceptions of theology, and so passed unheralded. If Darwin had discovered that life was created by an intelligent agent—a bodiless mind that loves us, and will smite us with lightning if we dare say otherwise—people would have said "My gosh! That's God!"

But instead Darwin discovered a strange alien God—not comfortably "ineffable", but really genuinely different from us. Evolution is not a God, but if it were, it wouldn't be Jehovah. It would be H. P. Lovecraft's Azathoth, the blind idiot God burbling chaotically at the center of everything, surrounded by the thin monotonous piping of flutes.

Which you might have predicted, if you had really looked at Nature.

So much for the claim some religionists make, that they believe in a vague deity with a correspondingly high probability. Anyone who really believed in a vague deity, would have recognized their strange inhuman creator when Darwin said "Aha!"

So much for the claim some religionists make, that they are waiting innocently curious for Science to discover God. Science has already discovered the sort-of-godlike maker of humans—but it wasn't what the religionists wanted to hear. They were waiting for the discovery of their God, the highly specific God they want to be there. They shall wait forever, for the great discovery has already taken place, and the winner is Azathoth.
What I wonder is whether doing this, especially in the long-term, is actively sabotaging the research system the US has in the long run
Yes. If for no other reason than Brain Drain.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Do I need to draw a diagram? Nature is Fucked Up in a way that would make H.R. Giger proud, and in fact, inspires much of his art.
I was actually aware of several of the parasites you shown me, particularly the one that replaces itself as the fish's tongue (it was on QI).

I still don't quite get how Giger fits into all this. Yes, Nature is messed up and Giger has some messed-up art (I don't find it to be really that, but that's the consensus on him) that's partially inspired by nature, but that's where I see the similarities end. Giger's works are meant to be art: they are meant to shock the viewer, they are meant to effect humans.

Body-horror parasites and fucked-up (to us humans anyway) insect matings are not all that there is to nature, isn't it? That's not meant to be anything, other than just being.

Or is it that I'm already an atheist? When I see or read about this sort of disturbing stuff, I remember that it doesn't effect me (I'm not a bedbug and I don't live in a third-world country that has these issues) and that accepting it just allows you to gain insight into nature. The idea that Nature is cruel does not shock me, because I already learned a long time ago. Is this sort of stuff particularly problematic to Christian theology?

Yes. If for no other reason than Brain Drain.
Brain Drain is where the US attracts non-US researchers with opportunities they couldn't get at home, right? So the "patriotic science" thing actively limits and removes those opportunities due to bullshit?
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Zixinus wrote:Brain Drain is where the US attracts non-US researchers with opportunities they couldn't get at home, right? So the "patriotic science" thing actively limits and removes those opportunities due to bullshit?

Or flat out reverses the trend by getting smart people to leave as soon as they get the chance.

I'm from Louisiana. We know something about this concept.
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Re: Patriotic, Republican Science

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:As for Lovecraft... Someone else put it better.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/kr/an_alien_god/
Meh... evolution is more like a cool algorithm. It's basically a naturally occurring algorithm based on errors while duplicating code and environmental feedback for determining fitness. Yeah, it results in all kinds of hilariously cruel things, but it's also awesome.
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