Iran nuclear deal reached

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Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Lord Relvenous »

BBC News wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25074729

Iran and six world powers meeting in Geneva say they have reached a deal on Tehran's nuclear programme.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said they had agreed a "first step" towards a comprehensive solution.

US President Barack Obama welcomed the deal, saying it included "substantial limitations which will help prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon".

But Iran's Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif insists Iran retains its right to enrich uranium.

The UK, US, Russia, China, France and Germany want Iran to stop enriching uranium in return for looser sanctions.This deal may be the most significant agreement between the world powers and Iran for a decade, says the BBC's Iran correspondent, James Reynolds, who is at the talks in Geneva.

Tehran denies repeated claims by Western governments that it is seeking to develop nuclear weapons, and insists it must be allowed to enrich uranium for power stations.

"We have reached an agreement," the Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif announced on his Twitter feed.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius also confirmed the deal.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said it was "good news for the whole world".

Details of the agreement are still sketchy.

Negotiators have been working since Wednesday to reach an agreement that is acceptable to both sides.

The talks had been scheduled to finish on Friday but were extended. Foreign ministers from the so-called P5+1 group of nations joined on Saturday, amid hopes of a breakthrough.

US officials said Secretary of State John Kerry, who arrived in Geneva early on Saturday, had the goal of "continuing to help narrow the differences and move closer to an agreement".

'Vigorous inspections'
British Foreign Secretary William Hague said on Saturday that a deal would be done only if it was a "truly worthwhile agreement".

Some US politicians had said they would push for more sanctions if the talks failed.

The Geneva meeting follows a previous round of talks earlier this month.

On that occasion, foreign ministers flew to Geneva to conclude the negotiations, but they went home empty-handed.

Analysts say a major sticking point has been Iran's insistence on its right to enrich uranium - a process that yields material used to manufacture fuel for power stations, but can also be used in weapons.

Western diplomats are also concerned about a reactor Iran is building at Arak - an issue which disrupted the first round of talks.
An additional article that expounds on the deal:
NY Times wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/world ... .html?_r=4&

GENEVA — The United States and five other world powers announced a landmark accord Sunday morning that would temporarily freeze Iran’s nuclear program and lay the foundation for a more sweeping agreement.

It was the first time in nearly a decade of talks, American officials said, that an international agreement had been reached to halt much of Iran’s nuclear program and roll some elements of it back.

The aim of the accord, which is to last six months, is to give international negotiators time to pursue a more comprehensive accord that would ratchet back much of Iran’s nuclear program and ensure that it could only be used for peaceful purposes.

“We have reached agreement,” Catherine Ashton, the European Union’s chief foreign policy official, posted on Twitter on Sunday morning. Her message was soon confirmed by statements from Iranian officials, Secretary of State John Kerry and an announcement by President Obama from the White House. The agreement was signed in Geneva at 3 a.m.

According to the agreement, Iran would agree to stop enriching uranium beyond 5 percent. To make good on that pledge, Iran would dismantle links between networks of centrifuges.

All of Iran’s stockpile of uranium that has been enriched to 20 percent, a short hop to weapons-grade fuel, would be diluted or converted into oxide so that it could not be readily used for military purposes.

No new centrifuges, neither old models nor newer more efficient ones, could be installed. Centrifuges that have been installed but which are not currently operating could not be started up.

The agreement, however, would not require Iran to stop enriching uranium to a level of 3.5 percent or dismantle any of its existing centrifuges.

The accord was a disappointment for Israel, which urged the United States to pursue a stronger agreement that would lead to a complete end to Iran’s enrichment program.

But Iran made it clear that continuing enrichment was a prerequisite for any agreement.

The United States did not accept Iran’s claim that it had a “right to enrich” under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. But American officials signaled earlier this week that they were open to a compromise in which the two sides would essentially agree to disagree on how the proliferation treaty should be interpreted, while Tehran continued to enrich.

In return for the initial agreement, the United States has agreed to provide $6 billion to $7 billion in sanctions relief, American officials said. Of this, roughly $4.2 billion would be oil revenue that has been frozen in foreign banks.

This limited sanctions relief can be accomplished by executive order, allowing the Obama administration to make the deal without having to appeal to Congress, where there is strong criticism of any agreement that does not fully dismantle Iran’s nuclear program.

The fact that the accord would only pause the Iranian program was seized on by critics who said it would reward Iran for institutionalizing the status quo.

The deal would also add at least several weeks, and perhaps more than a month, to the time Iran would need to produce weapons-grade uranium for a nuclear device, according to estimates by nuclear experts.

American officials argued that it would preclude Iran from shortening the time it would need to produce enough bomb-grade uranium for a nuclear device even further, and would provide additional warning if Iran sought to “break out” of its commitment to pursue only a peaceful nuclear program.

A second and even more contentious debate centered on whether an initial deal would, as the Obama administration said, serve as a “first step” toward a comprehensive solution of the nuclear issue, one that would leave Iran with a peaceful nuclear program that could not easily be used for military purposes.

Two former American national security advisers, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft, recently sent a letter to key American lawmakers endorsing the administration’s approach. “The apparent commitment of the new government of Iran to reverse course on its nuclear activities needs to be tested to insure it cannot rapidly build a nuclear weapon,” they wrote.

But some experts, including a former official who has worked on the Iranian issue for the White House, said it was unlikely that Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, would ever close the door on the option to develop nuclear weapons. Instead, they said, any initial six-month agreement is more likely to be followed by a series of partial agreements that constrain Iran’s nuclear activities but do not definitively solve the nuclear issues.

“At the end of six months, we may see another half step and six more months of negotiations — ad infinitum,” said Gary Samore, a senior aide on nonproliferation issues on the National Security Council in President Obama’s first term. Mr. Samore is now president of United Against Nuclear Iran, a nonprofit group that advocates tough sanctions against Iran unless it does more to curtail its nuclear program.

The agreement reflected compromises on key issues.

Iran would agree not to produce fuel for its heavy water reactor it is building near Arak or put it into operation. But it would not be required to stop all construction at the plant.

In a nod to Iran, the agreement does not preclude Tehran from making new centrifuges. But it allows international inspectors to monitor the assembly and production of centrifuges to guard against the possibility that Iran might stockpile the machines so it could vastly expand its enrichment capability as soon as the agreement lapsed.

Regarding enrichment, Iran’s stockpile of such low-enriched uranium would be allowed to temporarily increase to about eight tons from about seven tons currently. But Tehran would be required to shrink this stockpile by the end of the six-month agreement back to seven tons. This would be done by installing equipment to covert some of that stockpile to oxide.

To guard against cheating, international monitors would be allowed to visit the Natanz enrichment facility and the underground nuclear enrichment plant at Fordo daily to check the film from cameras installed there.

But Iran did not agree to all of the intrusive inspection that the International Atomic Energy Agency had said is needed to ensure that the Iranian program is peaceful.

Mr. Kerry met with his French and Russian counterparts before joining a three-way session with Mohammad Javad Zarif, the Iranian foreign minister, and Ms. Ashton, the first of two such sessions on Saturday. Late on Saturday, a spokeswoman for the Russian delegation said the two sides were “very close.”

The wrangling behind closed doors recalled the round in Geneva two weeks earlier, which seemed to be tantalizingly close to a breakthrough only to sputter to an end as France pressed the world powers to toughen their demands, particularly regarding the Arak plant, and Iran balked at the new terms.

There were also other sticky issues, including Iran’s insistence that it had the right to enrich uranium. At the end of that round of negotiations, the world powers presented a unified proposal, and the Iranians said they needed to consult with the authorities in Tehran before proceeding.

As to what Iran considers its “right to enrich,” American officials signaled a possible workaround last week, saying they were open to a compromise in which the two sides would essentially agree to disagree, while Tehran continued to enrich.

The fact that the accord would only pause the Iranian program was seized on by critics who said it would reward Iran for institutionalizing the status quo.

The deal would also add at least several weeks, and perhaps more than a month, to the time Iran would need to produce weapons-grade uranium for a nuclear device, according to estimates by nuclear experts.

American officials argued that it would preclude Iran from shortening the time it would need to produce enough bomb-grade uranium for a nuclear device even further, and would provide additional warning if Iran sought to “break out” of its commitment to pursue only a peaceful nuclear program.

A second and even more contentious debate centered on whether an initial deal would, as the Obama administration said, serve as a “first step” toward a comprehensive solution of the nuclear issue, one that would leave Iran with a peaceful nuclear program that could not easily be used for military purposes.

Two former American national security advisers, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft, recently sent a letter to key American lawmakers endorsing the administration’s approach. “The apparent commitment of the new government of Iran to reverse course on its nuclear activities needs to be tested to insure it cannot rapidly build a nuclear weapon,” they wrote.

But some experts, including a former official who has worked on the Iranian issue for the White House, said it was unlikely that Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, would ever close the door on the option to develop nuclear weapons. Instead, they said, any initial six-month agreement is more likely to be followed by a series of partial agreements that constrain Iran’s nuclear activities but do not definitively solve the nuclear issues.

“At the end of six months, we may see another half step and six more months of negotiations — ad infinitum,” said Gary Samore, a senior aide on nonproliferation issues on the National Security Council in President Obama’s first term. Mr. Samore is now president of United Against Nuclear Iran, a nonprofit group that advocates tough sanctions against Iran unless it does more to curtail its nuclear program.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Kitsune »

Tit for tat with occasional forgiveness?
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

That's a partial victory. Essentially Iran has agreed to back off actively pursuing the capability to build a bomb, and provide some credible assurances than it has done so, in exchange for being allowed to keep equipment it would need to restart the program at short notice. It means that Iran could resume its nuclear weapons program if it chose but could not build a bomb before the world has a chance to react. This is probably close to what they want to be: a turn-key nuclear state without the expense and diplomatic problems of actually obtaining weapons.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Elfdart »

The sooner the Iranians build an atomic bomb, the better.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

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Elfdart wrote:The sooner the Iranians build an atomic bomb, the better.
I'm presuming you are saying that in hopes that a nuclear weapon in Iran's hands would be enough to deter thoughts of the US invading Iran by all but the most wacko of right wing douchebags?
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Tsyroc wrote:I'm presuming you are saying that in hopes that a nuclear weapon in Iran's hands would be enough to deter thoughts of the US invading Iran by all but the most wacko of right wing douchebags?
He is probably more concerned about Israel doing something rash. The problem is Israel doing something before Iran gets to the point of actually building one. Unfortunately this deal appears to make that more likely.

Edited for clarity.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Ok, color me fucking surprised. For once a deal is reached. Bets on how long till Iran screws it up?
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

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I'm thinking the bets aren't on Iran screwing it up but on a different Middle Eastern country that was shoehorned out of the process mostly because I was getting the impression they were shouting NO over and over and over instead of actually talking. If they were ever a part...
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Iran almost had a civil war as late as 2009. What happens when the country descends into civil war? What would Assad have done with key rebel cities by now if he had nuclear weapons.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Gaidin wrote:I'm thinking the bets aren't on Iran screwing it up but on a different Middle Eastern country that was shoehorned out of the process mostly because I was getting the impression they were shouting NO over and over and over instead of actually talking. If they were ever a part...
Yeah, we should look into getting the international politics equivalent of a fat kid to sit on Israel or something so they don't accidentally-on-purpose screw shit up.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

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Tsyroc wrote:
Elfdart wrote:The sooner the Iranians build an atomic bomb, the better.
I'm presuming you are saying that in hopes that a nuclear weapon in Iran's hands would be enough to deter thoughts of the US invading Iran by all but the most wacko of right wing douchebags?
Not by itself but yes, atomic weapons have been very useful for keeping warmongers' hands to themselves.
Adamskywalker007 wrote:He is probably more concerned about Israel doing something rash. The problem is Israel doing something before Iran gets to the point of actually building one. Unfortunately this deal appears to make that more likely.

Edited for clarity.
Israel can't do much of anything against Iran other than what they're doing now. They were hoping America-Fuck Yeah! would invade or carpet bomb the country. That's why Netanyahu and his American fluffers are so hysterical about Obama's and Kerry's reluctance at starting another lost war in Asia -no matter how much AIPAC demands it.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by krakonfour »

I'm confused as to how Iran accepted these conditions:
-Restrict nuclear enrichment capacity, as in how many kg/year, in addition to percentage
-Lose millions in centrifuges being dismantled, not allowed to start up or unlinked for lower efficiency
-Lose the power plant they probably spent millions starting construction already
-Accept all that in return for billions of aid dollars.... that came out of your own frozen money.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

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cosmicalstorm wrote:Iran almost had a civil war as late as 2009. What happens when the country descends into civil war?
Their riots got really fucking bad, but I think your overall opinion is more a result of Western ignorance about Iran than based on fact. Straha will be here shortly, I bet.
What would Assad have done with key rebel cities by now if he had nuclear weapons.
Uh... nothing? There are so many levels of wrong with your insinuation.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by xerex »

krakonfour wrote:I'm confused as to how Iran accepted these conditions:
-Restrict nuclear enrichment capacity, as in how many kg/year, in addition to percentage
-Lose millions in centrifuges being dismantled, not allowed to start up or unlinked for lower efficiency
-Lose the power plant they probably spent millions starting construction already
-Accept all that in return for billions of aid dollars.... that came out of your own frozen money.
Iran and the US are looking for a rapprochement.

Iran sees that the Saudis (and Israelis) are screwing up thier relationship with the US and are looking for a way to become the USA's new friend. There was an attempt at this poss 9/11 viz viz Iranian influence in Afghanistan but the Bush admin was unable to let go of old hard feelings.

So Iran offers to give up something in return for gaining the trust of the West.


I wouldnt be surpised if 10 years from now we see the US backing a Turkish-Iranian alliance against the Saudis
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Borgholio »

My money is on Israel doing something stupid. Not too long ago there was a good deal of talk about Israel launching a pre-emptive strike on Iran. I can see them being just crazy (stupid) enough to do that at the first twitch from Iran that they don't like.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Stormin »

Israel has already been doing assassinations in Iran. A military strike is apparently just this side of impossible due to shortage of refueling aircraft.

I saw someone crunch the numbers* and according to him to have enough fuel to reach the targets and still be able to maneuver and defend themselves against intercepting aircraft and SAMs the last set of refuelers would have to be so close to Iranian airspace that there's a credible chance they could be intercepted themselves and shot down or forced to fly away meaning the entire attack force could be lost due to lack of fuel to return. Especially if they did have to fight or after burn their way through on either the attack or the escape.

That would mean the Israeli planes in a lot of scenario situations would end up having to land at an American airbase, leading to fun diplomatic times.

Then look at how the Iranians built their facilities with the idea of maybe being able to survive an American air assault if it wasn't too bad.

American assistance would have to be so blatant that there would be no point in even attempting the subterfuge and U.S. just sending in their own heavy bombers.


*Was back of envelope style calcs using publicly available info and may be outright wrong, but it seemed plausible and I don't care enough to run numbers myself.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

Elfdart wrote:Israel can't do much of anything against Iran other than what they're doing now. They were hoping America-Fuck Yeah! would invade or carpet bomb the country. That's why Netanyahu and his American fluffers are so hysterical about Obama's and Kerry's reluctance at starting another lost war in Asia -no matter how much AIPAC demands it.
Does anyone seriously believe that a war with the victory condition "Forcibly destroy the Iranian nuclear program." would be lost by the United States?

The US may not have a good record at re-building Islamic countries as secular liberal democracies, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a goal. If they don't have nuclear weapons it doesn't matter much to the US interest if Iran collapses into civil war and becomes a failed state after their invasion and prompt withdrawal. If one regards Iran as unerringly hostile regardless of US policy, that might even be a bonus.
krakonfour wrote:I'm confused as to how Iran accepted these conditions:
-Restrict nuclear enrichment capacity, as in how many kg/year, in addition to percentage
-Lose millions in centrifuges being dismantled, not allowed to start up or unlinked for lower efficiency
-Lose the power plant they probably spent millions starting construction already
-Accept all that in return for billions of aid dollars.... that came out of your own frozen money.
France, Saudi Arabia and Israel pretty much said they would attack Iran on their own if the US didn't. There was also talk about Saudi going nuclear in response. Iran got to keep most of the political advantages they were after but their hand simply wasn't strong enough to refuse every demand. If it actually came down to a military option they would lose, and US non-involvement would itself be shaky if Europe and the Arabs were leading the way this time.

One could argue that, because of French stubbornness, the US has failed to surrender. A strange turn-around in just ten years.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Mr. Coffee »

energiewende wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Israel can't do much of anything against Iran other than what they're doing now. They were hoping America-Fuck Yeah! would invade or carpet bomb the country. That's why Netanyahu and his American fluffers are so hysterical about Obama's and Kerry's reluctance at starting another lost war in Asia -no matter how much AIPAC demands it.
Does anyone seriously believe that a war with the victory condition, "Forcibly destroy the Iranian nuclear program" would be lost by the United States?

The US may not have a good record at re-building Islamic countries as secular liberal democracies, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a goal. If they don't have nuclear weapons it doesn't matter much to the US interest if Iran collapses into civil war and becomes a failed state after their invasion and prompt withdrawal.
Yes, because the Russians and Chinese will just sit right back and let us blow up one of their clients/major sources of oil. Never mind the fall out (in this case maybe literal fallout, as in radioactive). 'MURICA, FUCK YEAH! :roll:

Seriously, do you ever say anything that isn't weapons-grade retarded?
energiewende wrote:France, Saudi Arabia and Israel pretty much said they would attack Iran on their own if the US didn't.
Yeah, that's kind of the reason why we're actively trying to go after a diplomatic solution. We don't want goddamn WWIII to start over some sandy-assed pricks.

energiewende wrote:There was also talk about Saudi going nuclear in response.
Those dumbfucks can't even run an oil well without outside assistance. I kind of doubt they could figure out a nuclear weapons program.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
energiewende wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Israel can't do much of anything against Iran other than what they're doing now. They were hoping America-Fuck Yeah! would invade or carpet bomb the country. That's why Netanyahu and his American fluffers are so hysterical about Obama's and Kerry's reluctance at starting another lost war in Asia -no matter how much AIPAC demands it.
Does anyone seriously believe that a war with the victory condition, "Forcibly destroy the Iranian nuclear program" would be lost by the United States?

The US may not have a good record at re-building Islamic countries as secular liberal democracies, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a goal. If they don't have nuclear weapons it doesn't matter much to the US interest if Iran collapses into civil war and becomes a failed state after their invasion and prompt withdrawal.
Yes, because the Russians and Chinese will just sit right back and let us blow up one of their clients/major sources of oil. Never mind the fall out (in this case maybe literal fallout, as in radioactive). 'MURICA, FUCK YEAH! :roll:

Seriously, do you ever say anything that isn't weapons-grade retarded?
Conventionally, PRC cannot reach Iran and Russia would lose hard trying to reinforce them, and have most of its modern equipment (a small fraction of the total) destroyed in the process. So what's their alternative? Nuke the US? Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is not some existential interest for them.
energiewende wrote:France, Saudi Arabia and Israel pretty much said they would attack Iran on their own if the US didn't.
Yeah, that's kind of the reason why we're actively trying to go after a diplomatic solution. We don't want goddamn WWIII to start over some sandy-assed pricks.
Right, but you have to realise diplomacy and military action aren't contradictory policies, but rather part of a whole. Iran will only be persuaded to accept a peaceful settlement in which it grants concessions by threat of penalties, which ultimately means military action. If Iran doesn't grant any concessions then countries with a more existential interest in this than the US will take matters into their own hands, with unpredictable consequences. So, US taking a harder line militarily can ultimately increase the chances of a peaceful settlement.
energiewende wrote:There was also talk about Saudi going nuclear in response.
Those dumbfucks can't even run an oil well without outside assistance. I kind of doubt they could figure out a nuclear weapons program.
They have the seventh largest military budget in the world, ahead of India (8th), Israel (16th), Pakistan (25th) and South Africa (38th), all of which have produced nuclear weapons domestically. Saudi Arabia acquiring nuclear weapons is a serious possibility and practically inevitable if Iran gets them. This is one of the major reasons why there are a lot of people who do not want Iran to go nuclear for reasons other than having been paid off by rich Jewish lobbyists.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Mr. Coffee »

energiewende wrote:Conventionally, PRC cannot reach Iran and Russia would lose hard trying to reinforce them, and have most of its modern equipment (a small fraction of the total) destroyed in the process. So what's their alternative? Nuke the US? Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is not some existential interest for them.
Iran is a hell of a lot closer to Russian than it is to the US and we're already stretched pretty goddamn thin elsewhere. We can't afford another misadventure in the Middle East right now. Also, the US and Russia/China all directly fighting each other is one of those things we spent the entire fucking cold war trying to avoid specifically because we don't want a nuclear war to break out. Yet, here yu are suggesting we go ahead and do something that has a strong possibility of leading to a direct shooting war between us and RUssian/China. Are you fucking stoned or stupid, son?

Right, but you have to realise diplomacy and military action aren't contradictory policies, but rather part of a whole. Iran will only be persuaded to accept a peaceful settlement in which it grants concessions by threat of penalties, which ultimately means military action.
Yeah, if that's the case why haven't we forced Iran's hand with military action? We've only had three decades to do that.

Oh, right, the Russians.

They have the seventh largest military budget in the world, ahead of India (8th), Israel (16th), Pakistan (25th) and South Africa (38th), all of which have produced nuclear weapons domestically.
India, Israel, Pakistan, and South Africa also aren't run by a leisure class of retarded oil barons concerned with maintaining their lavish lifestyle to the exclusion of damned near everything else.

Seriously, the Saudis can't even run their own fucking oil fields without help and you're suggesting they could handle a nuclear weapons program. Doesn't matter how much money they have, it's beyond their abilities and no one in their right mind is going to allow those idiots to hire a nuclear weapons program from outside sources.

Now seriously, kid, take the hint and shut the fuck up already.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
energiewende wrote:Conventionally, PRC cannot reach Iran and Russia would lose hard trying to reinforce them, and have most of its modern equipment (a small fraction of the total) destroyed in the process. So what's their alternative? Nuke the US? Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is not some existential interest for them.
Iran is a hell of a lot closer to Russian than it is to the US and we're already stretched pretty goddamn thin elsewhere. We can't afford another misadventure in the Middle East right now. Also, the US and Russia/China all directly fighting each other is one of those things we spent the entire fucking cold war trying to avoid specifically because we don't want a nuclear war to break out. Yet, here yu are suggesting we go ahead and do something that has a strong possibility of leading to a direct shooting war between us and RUssian/China. Are you fucking stoned or stupid, son?
The point is neither Russia nor the PRC would attack the US.
Right, but you have to realise diplomacy and military action aren't contradictory policies, but rather part of a whole. Iran will only be persuaded to accept a peaceful settlement in which it grants concessions by threat of penalties, which ultimately means military action.
Yeah, if that's the case why haven't we forced Iran's hand with military action? We've only had three decades to do that.

Oh, right, the Russians.
Iran's nuclear program has been known for 11 years, and considered close to even producing the material for a bomb only very recently. In response to foreign pressure, they agreed to roll back and freeze this program just now. That's what the articles in the OP are about. I don't see any evidence that Iran is unafraid of foreign intervention; if that were the cases they would have refused any concessions and declared their program openly.

And what makes you think Russia even wants Iran to have nuclear weapons? They have enough problematic nuclear powers on their borders. They may not want the US to invade Iran and gain a lot of new bases on Russia's Southern flank, but that doesn't mean they want Iran to succeed with its weapons development either. Global politics is not some grand conspiracy of video game villains all united against America; they all have their own interests which is how you see Saudi Arabia and Israel lining up together on this issue.
They have the seventh largest military budget in the world, ahead of India (8th), Israel (16th), Pakistan (25th) and South Africa (38th), all of which have produced nuclear weapons domestically.
India, Israel, Pakistan, and South Africa also aren't run by a leisure class of retarded oil barons concerned with maintaining their lavish lifestyle to the exclusion of damned near everything else.

Seriously, the Saudis can't even run their own fucking oil fields without help and you're suggesting they could handle a nuclear weapons program. Doesn't matter how much money they have, it's beyond their abilities and no one in their right mind is going to allow those idiots to hire a nuclear weapons program from outside sources.

Now seriously, kid, take the hint and shut the fuck up already.
The Saudis take something very seriously aside from their leisure, Sunni Islam, and ranking them below the Pakistanis - who are both poorer and less stable - would be a serious mistake. The only reason they don't go nuclear is that they are not directly threatened, and they currenlty enjoy US favour that would be threatened by such a program. If Iran becomes a threat and the US proves itself to be an ineffective patron, things will change, and a three-way nuclear Cold War in the Middle East becomes a serious possibility. Then we can see how Turkey, Egypt and Iraq respond. The situation will have left US control by this point since the regional nuclear powers can deny US access, not with a threat of x,000 casualties it would rather not take, but outright military defeat.

This is why it's on the whole better that the US makes a credible threat to attack Iran now, which it probably will not have to follow through with, rather than having to deal with that mess in 20 years. In the negotiations that just happened the US seems to have tried to back out, but France, Saudi and Israel weren't having it. As a result, Iran seems to have backed down. We will see how well they make good on their promises.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Mr. Coffee »

energiewende wrote:The point is neither Russia nor the PRC would attack the US.
Yes, because they'll totally just stand there and do nothing when we blow up one of their clients/oil sources...

Seriously, shut the fuck up you jingoistic fucktard.

Iran's nuclear program has been known for 11 years, and considered close to even producing the material for a bomb only very recently.
I was talking about the length of time the US has been attempting diplomacy with the Iranians, you genetic throwback. Christ, you're so dense light must bend around you.
In response to foreign pressure, they agreed to roll back and freeze this program just now. That's what the articles in the OP are about. I don't see any evidence that Iran is unafraid of foreign intervention; if that were the cases they would have refused any concessions and declared their program openly.
Are you retarded? Seriously, I really want to know if I'm talking to someone who's handicapped.

Iran doesn't really want nuclear weapons. What they want is to be able to use the threat of having a weapons program to use as leverage to broker a better deal out of the West when it comes time to talk about lifting sanctions o Iran. This is so goddamn obvious my son pointed it out when he was eight year old. So if an eight year old can grasp this I really got to ask what the fuck your excuse is for not getting it?

And what makes you think Russia even wants Iran to have nuclear weapons? They have enough problematic nuclear powers on their borders. They may not want the US to invade Iran and gain a lot of new bases on Russia's Southern flank, but that doesn't mean they want Iran to succeed with its weapons development either. Global politics is not some grand conspiracy of video game villains all united against America; they all have their own interests which is how you see Saudi Arabia and Israel lining up together on this issue.

The Saudis take something very seriously aside from their leisure, Sunni Islam, and ranking them below the Pakistanis - who are both poorer and less stable - would be a serious mistake.
No, really, the Saudis are that goddamn stupid. They can't run their own oil production without outside assistance and that's their major source of income. If they have to have help with what is the source of their wealth then the chances of them building up a nuclear weapons program by themselves is about as likely as your dense ass getting US-Iran relations.

The only reason they don't go nuclear is that they are not directly threatened, and they currenlty enjoy US favour that would be threatened by such a program.
Even bigger reason, they understand fully that it's way the hell and gone outside the scope of their abilities. Now shut the fuck up, you goddamn oxygen thief.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
energiewende wrote:The point is neither Russia nor the PRC would attack the US.
Yes, because they'll totally just stand there and do nothing when we blow up one of their clients/oil sources...

Seriously, shut the fuck up you jingoistic fucktard.
They have two options: sit and do nothing, or nuke the US. Not being either USian, Russite, or Sinoese, I think the former is the more likely.
Iran's nuclear program has been known for 11 years, and considered close to even producing the material for a bomb only very recently.
I was talking about the length of time the US has been attempting diplomacy with the Iranians, you genetic throwback.
Then you're talking off the topic. No one has suggested US should have invaded Iran because of the Embassy Crisis, or whatever they were doing wrong in your mind in the mid-90s, but because of the unique threat of nuclear proliferation in the Mid East.
Christ, you're so dense light must bend around you.
This is the sort of put down hack writers give the nerd character in a kids' TV show.
In response to foreign pressure, they agreed to roll back and freeze this program just now. That's what the articles in the OP are about. I don't see any evidence that Iran is unafraid of foreign intervention; if that were the cases they would have refused any concessions and declared their program openly.
Are you retarded? Seriously, I really want to know if I'm talking to someone who's handicapped.

Iran doesn't really want nuclear weapons. What they want is to be able to use the threat of having a weapons program to use as leverage to broker a better deal out of the West when it comes time to talk about lifting sanctions o Iran. This is so goddamn obvious my son pointed it out when he was eight year old. So if an eight year old can grasp this I really got to ask what the fuck your excuse is for not getting it?
Of course it wants them - if there were no consequences. Turn-key state is what it will settle for in a reality where people will impose consequences.

The Saudis take something very seriously aside from their leisure, Sunni Islam, and ranking them below the Pakistanis - who are both poorer and less stable - would be a serious mistake.
No, really, the Saudis are that goddamn stupid. They can't run their own oil production without outside assistance and that's their major source of income. If they have to have help with what is the source of their wealth then the chances of them building up a nuclear weapons program by themselves is about as likely as your dense ass getting US-Iran relations.
Pakistan does not even control large portions of its own de-jure territory. The bar to nuclear weapons just isn't very high. A lot of the modern oil exploration technology is more, not less, advanced than 1940s bomb designs.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by Lord Relvenous »

energiewende wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:
energiewende wrote:The point is neither Russia nor the PRC would attack the US.
Yes, because they'll totally just stand there and do nothing when we blow up one of their clients/oil sources...

Seriously, shut the fuck up you jingoistic fucktard.
They have two options: sit and do nothing, or nuke the US. Not being either USian, Russite, or Sinoese, I think the former is the more likely.
Are you physically incapable of considering effects that are not directly tied to armed conflict? Militarily, Iraq was a victory. In every other sense, it was a complete and abject failure. China and Russia can cause a lot of issues for the US that does not involve fucking nuking it. The fact that you think the only possible responses to an attack on an allied state is to physically fight them or nuke them is hilarious.

I get this mental image of a college freshmen just learning the basics of political science popping a stiffy over hard power and how to wield it when they have absolutely no idea how things like international diplomacy work.

The only issue with that is the implication of even a basic education in the topic. You seem to have replaced that with nothing more than hot air and stupidity.
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Re: Iran nuclear deal reached

Post by energiewende »

Re-read the posts: "Mr. Coffee" explicitly disagreed with my claim that Russia and PRC would not militarily attack the US over Iran. Not impose some nebulous other penalty, but fight them in an open war. This is made even more clear if you read his previous posts, with references to "starting WWIII". Precisely what I am saying is that a real situation wouldn't work out anything like he envisions, and PRC and Russia would not fight the US over Iran.
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