US and China tensions

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Biden in China amid Asia tensions over air zone

China's new air defence identification zone is likely to dominate talks
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Joe Biden should not repeat "erroneous remarks" on China's new air zone, Chinese state media warned, as the US vice-president arrived in Beijing.

Mr Biden is in Beijing for meetings with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang.

His visit to Asia has been dominated by a row over China's newly-declared air zone, which covers islands controlled by Japan.

Mr Biden arrived from Tokyo, where he reaffirmed the US alliance with Japan.

Mr Biden attended an official welcome ceremony in Beijing's Great Hall of the People where he met China's Vice-President Li Yuanchao, and said China and the US should expand practical co-operation and deliver results.

On Thursday he will visit China's leadership compound, known as Zhongnanhai.

While in Tokyo, Mr Biden said he would raise concerns over China's new air zone "in great specificity" during meetings with China's leaders.
Map of east china sea and declared air defence zone

Mr Biden and Mr Xi are said to enjoy a relatively close relationship.

China announced a new Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) last month, and said aircraft flying through the zone must follow its rules, including filing flight plans.

The ADIZ covers islands claimed and controlled by Japan, and a submerged rock claimed by South Korea.
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Analysis
image of Celia Hatton Celia Hatton BBC News, Beijing

Joe Biden's diplomatic skills will be tested in Beijing, as he attempts to quell regional tensions over China's new Air Defence Identification Zone.

So far, he appears to be giving China room to explain its intentions behind Beijing's seemingly sudden announcement of the new zone.

When meeting Washington's allies in Tokyo, Mr Biden stopped short of calling on China to reverse its declaration. Instead, the US vice president said he was deeply concerned by China's actions, leaving his senior aides to proclaim that Beijing's move was a provocative act.

The US, Japan and South Korea have rejected China's zone, and flown undeclared military aircraft through the ADIZ.

On Friday, China scrambled fighter jets to monitor US and Japanese planes flying in the area.

Tokyo has told its national carriers not to file flight plans with the Chinese side when transiting the zone, but on Friday the US said it expected its carriers to "operate consistent with Notams [Notices to Airmen] issued by foreign countries".

This did not indicate "US government acceptance of China's requirements for operating in the newly-declared ADIZ", the state department said.

Speaking in Tokyo on Tuesday, Mr Biden said the US was "deeply concerned by the attempt to unilaterally change the status quo in the East China Sea."
'Taking sides'
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Chinese media reaction

Chinese state media have been calling on the US to refrain from supporting Japan over the ADIZ row.

Several papers picked up on the fact that Mr Biden did not issue a joint statement with Japan calling on China to revoke the zone.

"Biden's statement [on the zone] was relatively vague on the whole," said the Global Times.

China Daily said Mr Biden must be told that "it is Japan that has unilaterally changed the status quo... China is just responding to Japanese provocations".

Meanwhile, Xinhua news agency urged the US to "stop indulging Japan's recklessness" and restrain Tokyo.

China media: Joe Biden in Asia

On Wednesday, Chinese state media criticised Mr Biden's comments.

"Washington has obviously taken Japan's side," state-run newspaper China Daily said in an editorial.

"If the US is truly committed to lowering tensions in the region, it must first stop acquiescing to Tokyo's dangerous brinkmanship," it said, adding that Mr Biden should not simply repeat the US's "previous erroneous and one-sided remarks.

Chinese Defence Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng said this week that the zone "is not aimed at any specific country or target, and it certainly does not constitute a threat towards any country or region."

China's military is "fully capable of exercising effective control" over the zone, Mr Geng added.

[Irbis]

Funny thing is, the other US ally, Taiwan, fully agrees with most of Chinese claims. If anything, Taiwan has even larger territorial appetite than mainland China.

[mr friendly guy]

Well Taiwan until a few years ago, not only claimed the entirety of the PRC, but also the Republic of Mongolia as well.

Back to the topic, I predict it will boil over for now. All sides need to keep on reiterating their claims or else years down the line one side can say to the other, look you gave up your claim years ago when you stopped insisting it was your territory.

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm liking the US/Japan response of ignoring the PRC and flying aircraft through airspace, not giving a solitary fuck. Maybe we shoukd steam a carrier up and down the East China Sea a few times as an encore.

[Borgholio]

I'm liking the US/Japan response of ignoring the PRC and flying aircraft through airspace, not giving a solitary fuck.

Flew two fucking B-52s through there for over an hour. Chinese didn't even utter a peep about that until a couple days later when they said, "Oh yeah we were tracking them..."

Maybe we shoukd steam a carrier up and down the East China Sea a few times as an encore.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/28/world/asi ... war-games/

Already there. Looks like both the George Washington and the Chinese carrier are in proximity to each other.

Am I alone in thinking that this can get ugly really fast if the Chinese do something stupid...which is possible?

[Thanas]

Yes, you are. It may equally go south if the US does something stupid (US soldiers doing something boneheaded, Why I never...)

[Borgholio]

Well, there's that...but surely our military doesn't have a monopoly on doing something worthy of a facepalm...

[Mr. Coffee]

Well, there's that...but surely our military doesn't have a monopoly on doing something worthy of a facepalm...

To be fair, China already went full retard when they started this shit with their hairbrained idea to up declare the airspace theirs.

[Thanas]

Well, there's that...but surely our military doesn't have a monopoly on doing something worthy of a facepalm...

First, I agree that the Chinese are the aggressors here and so far the US is using reasonable means to enforce the claims of their ally.

But I would be far more afraid of some US pilot doing something stupid because they got the means and the past record of doing stupid things without consequences.

The Chinese are not going to start a war which they know they will lose. Neither is the west going to start a war which would wreck their economies. This will be all sabre rattling.

[Tanasinn]

Entertaining saber rattling, at least. It's too bad it costs money to do.

[Wicked Pilot]

I'm liking the US/Japan response of ignoring the PRC and flying aircraft through airspace, not giving a solitary fuck. Maybe we shoukd steam a carrier up and down the East China Sea a few times as an encore.

China's little box is mostly in Japan's airspace (not sovereign, but administrative). Most of it overlies Fokouka, Incheon and Taipei, and a small portion even intrudes into a Japanese warning area used by US military aircraft operating out of Kadena and Futenma.

It'd be like if Cuba declared their ADIZ into the Gulf of Mexico, and said all US aircraft flying from New Orleans to Tampa had to check in with Havana before hand. Yeah, not going to happen.

[Captain Seafort]

The Chinese are not going to start a war which they know they will lose. Neither is the west going to start a war which would wreck their economies. This will be all sabre rattling.

Intentionally, sure. On the other hand, what are the chances of either a) some idiot on the scene starting a war or b) one or other of them doing something that they see as sabre rattling but the other sees as casus belli?

[Borgholio]

one or other of them doing something that they see as sabre rattling but the other sees as casus belli?

In the same vein as what Thanas said, if a US pilot decides to buzz the Chinese carrier and they start shooting at the plane...

[Wicked Pilot]

Intentionally, sure. On the other hand, what are the chances of either a) some idiot on the scene starting a war or b) one or other of them doing something that they see as sabre rattling but the other sees as casus belli?

Close to zero, as we and Japan and South Korea have been operating in that airspace for decades now, and none such war starting incident has happened yet. Sure, let your imaginations run wild if you want, but really nothing has changed.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think US carrier pilots or bomber pilots are likely to act as wild and unprofessional as we sometimes see Army grunts or helicopter pilots. These are the same services the US trusts to handle nuclear weapons, and there is a real standard of professionalism.

[Elheru Aran]

Bear in mind that a few years ago a Chinese fighter actually crashed directly into a US recon plane; fighter didn't make it, US plane had to make an emergency landing upon the Chinese island of Harbin (IIRC). Some negotiating later and a few quiet apologies, and the US personnel were given back without undue fuss. There is a precedent for accidents happening and peaceful resolution of same. It's not going to be anything like when some Libyan fighters got shot down in the 80s. A few planes might get rather close to each other (close enough to exchange contact information via writing on pieces of paper in the cockpit, maybe), ships might sail around in an officious way, but nothing is going to happen because China knows that in any conflict that might happen the odds are fairly decent they'd lose, the US knows they'd be bloodied savagely whether or not they won (plus the enemy is all the way across on the other side of the planet), it's a lose-lose proposition for both sides to start a fight. If some fool on either side does let loose a few shots, they're going to be yanked so fast nobody will notice except Fox News who'll find some way to blame Obama for it.

[Irbis]

These are the same services the US trusts to handle nuclear weapons, and there is a real standard of professionalism.

The same services that a few years lost a dozen live nuclear warheads by sending them on unplanned and unguarded 4 day trip all over USA? Why, that's encouraging

[Napoleon the Clown]

China's issues lie more with Japan than the US. Regardless of how much they like or dislike the US, they pretty much hate Japan. Individual citizens may feel differently, but the two governments actively dislike the other. They have for quite some time.

China and the US are major trade partners and both know it. Even ignoring the damage military action itself causes, the economic damage of cutting economic ties between each other would shake both countries' economies up something fierce. Keeping in mind the economic advantages alone, both sides would likely be willing to negotiate something if some dumb fuck on either side did something stupid.

China deciding to fuck with Japan more directly is honestly more likely than China deciding to try anything with the US. And China is smart enough to realize that attacking Japan would be pretty much the same as fucking with the US. Japan's smart enough to realize that engaging China would fuck them over really thoroughly. Sure, the US would probably come along and end the fighting, but the cost to Japan would be huge. Neither side is actually going to do anything to justify going to war.

I agree with Thanas, this is just sabre rattling. China wants to show off how big and scary it is and Japan doesn't want to let them just annex airspace that they've claimed already.

[Tanasinn]

The Chinese are not going to start a war which they know they will lose. Neither is the west going to start a war which would wreck their economies. This will be all sabre rattling.

Intentionally, sure. On the other hand, what are the chances of either a) some idiot on the scene starting a war or b) one or other of them doing something that they see as sabre rattling but the other sees as casus belli?

Pretty fucking low. One or both sides has to actually want to have a war. North Korea gave South Korea two cassus belli in the past year alone. If something were to happen, we could expect even more rattling of sabers and lots of anger back and forth, but probably not an actual war.

It boils down to saber rattling. China is trying to swing their regional dick and the U.S. is laughing at it and calling it tiny. Entertaining to watch, but probably not gonna result in WWIII.

[Mr Bean]

The Chinese are not going to start a war which they know they will lose. Neither is the west going to start a war which would wreck their economies. This will be all sabre rattling.

Intentionally, sure. On the other hand, what are the chances of either a) some idiot on the scene starting a war or b) one or other of them doing something that they see as sabre rattling but the other sees as casus belli?

These are ships not sailors, sure the pilots might be able to give a reason but it's rather hard for the US Navy to "accidentally" do anything. All of our weapon systems are a touch complicated unless you think some of the small boat defense .50cals alongside will up and decide to be left unsafed by the Captain and manned and loaded to bear.

Naval matters are not like two sets of border armies staring at each other over a DMZ, it's much harder because firing a rocket does little it has to be aimed, sure some Captain could go nuts and order the ship to fire on Chinese vessels or a submarine could be mistaken for making an attack run or some such. But the area involve makes this unlikely.


To big, to empty and to (relativity) isolated yet very well watched for anyone to blunder into anyone else and panic.

[fgalkin]

I'm just going to leave this here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defens ... h_America)

China went as far as to copy FAA wording exactly.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr. Coffee]

Not seeing a point with posting that, Fgalkin.

[Borgholio]

Unless he's trying to say that China knocks off legalese documents as well as technology?

[Mr. Coffee]

I was thinking more along the lines of us not being the assholes trying to set up an ADIZ over territory the ownership of which is under dispute. But hey, now we know China can actually read legalese, so they're being cunts intentionally.

[fgalkin]

I was thinking more along the lines of us not being the assholes trying to set up an ADIZ over territory the ownership of which is under dispute. But hey, now we know China can actually read legalese, so they're being cunts intentionally.

The US not infringing on anyone's sovereignty. That's funny. I hear Russia and Cuba would like to have a word with you on that.

Or, for that matter, Japan whose ADIZ just so happens to overlap that of Taiwan.

Not seeing a point with posting that, Fgalkin.

The point being that I don't see anyone flying military planes to "test" the US zone.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin