UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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The original thread on this crash is here.

From CNN, with additional links and video on the article sidebar:
Washington (CNN) -- The pilot of an Asiana Airlines jet that crashed in San Francisco this year told investigators after the accident that he had been "very concerned" about landing without help from an airport navigation system that was out of order.

Capt. Lee Kang Kuk, who was highly experienced in a Boeing 747 but was transitioning to flying a 777, told the National Transportation Safety Board that he found it "very stressful, very difficult" to land without the glideslope indicator that helps pilots determine whether the plane is too high or too low during approach.

"Asked whether he was concerned about his ability to perform the visual approach while piloting Asiana Flight 214, he said 'very concerned, yea,'" the safety board revealed at a hearing on Wednesday on its investigation into the July 6 crash that killed three people and injured more than 180 others.

The jet struck a sea wall and broke apart on the runway following a missed approach.

The navigation aid that syncs up with aircraft instruments was out of service while the Federal Aviation Administration made runway safety improvements. But a second, visual lighting system was operable at the time of the daytime crash and the weather was clear.

The safety board investigation is focusing on whether pilots have become overly reliant on automation to fly commercial planes, and whether basic manual flying skills have eroded.

Investigators have also focused on the pilot understanding -- or misunderstanding -- of the plane's auto-thrust system, which controls aircraft power.

Automated cockpit systems key to Asiana probe

Some of the crew of the Asiana flight from Seoul told investigators the auto thrust was always engaged.

But the safety board has said that system was not engaged, and the jet descended in altitude faster than it should have, and had a slower forward speed than intended.

The combination put the plane into a perilous situation in the final minute of flight.

The relief first officer, Bong Dongwon, who was sitting behind Lee and instructor pilot Lee Jungmin, said he observed the fast descent -- or sink rate -- and called out the excessive sink rate "more than four times."

Bong told investigators the pilot appeared to be correcting the "sink rate" and did not advise further changes.

But its speed was declining at about the same time. The plane was flying at 170 knots 73 seconds before impact, dropped below the target speed for landing of 137 knots at roughly 38 seconds before impact, and plummeted as low as 103 knots just seconds before the plane's front landing gear and tail hit the sea wall at the end of the runway.

The crew made its first reference to the plane's speed problem just seven seconds before the crash.

The pilot called out a "go around" -- a command to abort the landing -- three seconds before impact.

Boeing's former chief pilot for the B777 program said automated systems are intended to help pilots, but that they still need to exercise diligence.

"We accept the fact that pilots, as all humans, make errors," he said. Automation is intended "as a tool to aid the pilot, not replace the pilot," he said.

Information released at Wednesday's hearing also showed investigators are concerned about the role Korean and airline culture played in the crash.

Bong said the crew practiced "cockpit resource management," training that encourages subordinates to speak up about safety concerns to other crew members, despite their senior rank, experience or seniority.

But when Lee -- who was considered a student pilot in the 777 -- was asked whether he had contemplated an aborted landing as the plane descended, he said it was a "very hard" decision to make, given the deference shown to superiors in Korean culture.

By the time Lee pushed the throttle forward just seconds before impact, he discovered his instructor had already done so.

Three passengers died in the accident -- two in the crash and a third on the ground when hit by a rescue truck responding to the scene.

The accident was the first fatal commercial airline crash in the United States since February 2009.

Crash survivor Ben Levy told CNN he was forfeiting an opportunity to watch the proceedings.

"I think something that I've done quickly after this plane crash has been to focus on work and family and things that matter to me," Levy said. "I'm extremely happy that something is being done to get to the bottom of what happened that day because it should not have happened."
A couple of things that stood out at me:

- A pilot SHOULD be able to land an airplane using the Mark 1 eyeball in clear daytime weather. Yes, the various landing aids are extremely useful and even a small scale pilot such as myself will happily use them, even in the best weather, but a properly trained bald ape is entirely capable of landing an airplane without such aids. Granted, a big B7x7 is more difficult to handle than what I have been known to fly but, again, those guys are supposed to have more training and experience, it's a scenario that is supposed to be practiced in simulation, and since power failures happen and instrument landing systems need periodic maintenance/rebuilding it's a skill that should be in every pilot's toolkit. I mean, WTF? The pilot is there to deal with unusual situations no matter how trivial. When the pretty lights in front of/alongside the runway are not functioning it's the pilot's job to land safely anyway. If the pilot couldn't do this he wasn't, in my opinion, qualified to fly the airplane no matter how many others flying he has in his log book.

- Yes, I think some pilots are becoming over-reliant on automation. Automation is great, even on a small scale - I could give you an earful about the the joys of computer controlled fuel injected engines over classical hand controlled carburetors in single engine piston aircraft but that's way too much a diversion - and it's one of the major reasons that modern aviation is, on average, safer than ever. Computers and machines do routine stuff better and more reliably than human beings, and they can significantly reduce the mental workload at crucial times. These are all good things, but the human being is there to deal with stuff the computer isn't good at, which still covers a good slice of the pie. The pilot is there to recognize anomalous situations and emergencies. The pilot is there to deal with situations where machinery isn't working (including navigation and landing aids). The pilot is there to deal with anything outside the routine. Mechanical glideslope isn't working? Then it's the pilot's job to use the old eyeballs to do it the old fashioned way. Holy crap, people have safely landed airliners with complete engine failure, mechanical failures, and all sorts of problems, this landing should have been trivial. Not to mention a buttload of other airplanes managed it that very same day. This was a human failure, not weather or machine failure. It's scary to think this "captain" was flying B747's - was he doing so with the same attitude and lack of attention?

- A second landing approach system was active. I'm assuming that they mean a PAPI (precision approach path indicator). It's not as refined as an ILS or some of the other landing aids but it's still extremely useful AND it's easy to use! Even rural grass strips out in the middle of nowhere have them sometimes, particularly in mountainous areas where certain approach angles are used to avoid obstacles. This is another WTF moment because pilots are exposed to these and use them from primary flight school onward. It's a little like finding a mentally normal, physically capable adult who can't remember how to tie his shoes.

- Another pilot in the cockpit noted the sink rate and said something - but the guys actually flying didn't respond. Uh, hello? Bong Dongwon should have been the one flying because apparently he was the only one with his brain actually working. As soon as he noted something amiss and said something the other two should have responded by at least checking the situation, then taking any needed action. Dongwon did what he was supposed to, the other two were asleep at the switch. Another big WTF here.
Bong said the crew practiced "cockpit resource management," training that encourages subordinates to speak up about safety concerns to other crew members, despite their senior rank, experience or seniority.

But when Lee -- who was considered a student pilot in the 777 -- was asked whether he had contemplated an aborted landing as the plane descended, he said it was a "very hard" decision to make, given the deference shown to superiors in Korean culture
OK, this is not a problem limited to Koreans - the March 27, 1977 Tenerife airport disaster involving two 747's colliding on a runway involved similar issues regarding hierarchy among pilots of European origins - but the very term CRM was coined during the efforts to prevent this from causing future crashes. Even among maverick cultures like the US training to speak up even when a subordinate requires nurturing. One of a pilot's responsibilities is to say "no" or "Hey, this needs attention" even in the face of frowning Authority. Unfortunately, pilots can be punished for doing so because airlines these days are not usually run by pilots. (Actually, even in the past that was the exception).

Go-arounds, or aborted landings, do cost money because they burn more fuel, take time, and may disturb traffic patterns thus requiring other airplanes to delay landing. They shouldn't be routine. However, it should be expected that they will occur from time to time. One problem is that doing a go-around is an admission of a less than perfect approach, and pilots are expected to approach perfectly every time, regardless. So rather than be praised for avoiding an accident a pilot might be punished for being less than perfect, or a pilot perceives that he will be punished in such circumstances even if that will not happen.

Bottom line: this was caused by people problems more than anything else. The weather was excellent. The machine did what it was told to do, it's not the mechanism's fault that something was accidentally turned off. This was a failure of the pilot(s) to properly monitor and fly the airplane.

Now, there probably are better ways to automate airplanes and train pilots. We shouldn't just say "bad pilot!" and ignore the rest. As always, we should try to learn something from this. What we've been learning lately is that the machines and humans aren't interacting as well as they should sometimes. Machines have to be made/programmed with human limitations in mind, so that we can better take advantage of human strengths at crucial times.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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This seems to happen a lot with Korean airlines - much to much deference shown to superiors just because they are older. There were some crashes involving KoreanAir which highlighted this as well in the past.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Danny Bhoy »

I just saw this link on the OZ sub-forum of a frequent-flier forum that I semi-lurk on. Can't vouch for the accuracy but bloody interesting nonetheless.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3041469/posts
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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In chapter 7 "the ethnic theory of plane crashes" of his book Outliers Malcolm Gladwell describes how seemingly minor things like the way junior officers speak to their superiors (and how those superiors interprete their words) or cultural differences in regards to toleration of ambiguity between for example Korean pilots and foreign ATC can contribute to plane crashes. It's a very interesting chapter of a very interesting book.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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Danny Bhoy wrote:I just saw this link on the OZ sub-forum of a frequent-flier forum that I semi-lurk on. Can't vouch for the accuracy but bloody interesting nonetheless.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3041469/posts
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Danny Bhoy »

Thanas wrote:
Danny Bhoy wrote:I just saw this link on the OZ sub-forum of a frequent-flier forum that I semi-lurk on. Can't vouch for the accuracy but bloody interesting nonetheless.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3041469/posts
Free Republic? Really?
Like I said, I'm no airedale so can't comment on the accuracy whether technical or stereotypes. I thought the original post originated from PPrune or even some other airline pilot forum, certainly not in-house from Free Republic! Anyway, I'd post it too if it came via the New Statesman. Right, Left, Port Starboard whatever.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by phongn »

Thanas wrote:Free Republic? Really?
It's originally sourced from PPRuNE. It's not the most reliable of sources but I've heard similar reports from a few other places too.
Thanas wrote:This seems to happen a lot with Korean airlines - much to much deference shown to superiors just because they are older. There were some crashes involving KoreanAir which highlighted this as well in the past.
Europe and the USA demanded major reforms after KAL 8509, IIRC, to the point of threatening to withdraw landing rights if they didn't comply. I don't know if Asiana learned from that. If accurate, the PPRuNe post indicates that KAL didn't really learn, either.
Broomstick wrote:- Yes, I think some pilots are becoming over-reliant on automation. Automation is great, even on a small scale - I could give you an earful about the the joys of computer controlled fuel injected engines over classical hand controlled carburetors in single engine piston aircraft but that's way too much a diversion - and it's one of the major reasons that modern aviation is, on average, safer than ever. Computers and machines do routine stuff better and more reliably than human beings, and they can significantly reduce the mental workload at crucial times. These are all good things, but the human being is there to deal with stuff the computer isn't good at, which still covers a good slice of the pie. The pilot is there to recognize anomalous situations and emergencies. The pilot is there to deal with situations where machinery isn't working (including navigation and landing aids). The pilot is there to deal with anything outside the routine. Mechanical glideslope isn't working? Then it's the pilot's job to use the old eyeballs to do it the old fashioned way. Holy crap, people have safely landed airliners with complete engine failure, mechanical failures, and all sorts of problems, this landing should have been trivial. Not to mention a buttload of other airplanes managed it that very same day. This was a human failure, not weather or machine failure. It's scary to think this "captain" was flying B747's - was he doing so with the same attitude and lack of attention?
Apparently there was a major uptick in go-arounds once the glidescope was down. The WSJ has an analysis. In short: foreign airlines rates went up much higher than domestic pilots.
- A second landing approach system was active. I'm assuming that they mean a PAPI (precision approach path indicator). It's not as refined as an ILS or some of the other landing aids but it's still extremely useful AND it's easy to use! Even rural grass strips out in the middle of nowhere have them sometimes, particularly in mountainous areas where certain approach angles are used to avoid obstacles. This is another WTF moment because pilots are exposed to these and use them from primary flight school onward. It's a little like finding a mentally normal, physically capable adult who can't remember how to tie his shoes.
I think it was on another runway; both ILS and PAPI were inoperative on that runway.
Siege wrote:In chapter 7 "the ethnic theory of plane crashes" of his book Outliers Malcolm Gladwell describes how seemingly minor things like the way junior officers speak to their superiors (and how those superiors interprete their words) or cultural differences in regards to toleration of ambiguity between for example Korean pilots and foreign ATC can contribute to plane crashes. It's a very interesting chapter of a very interesting book.
Phil Greenspun, who was a regional pilot and is now a helicopter pilot instructor, thinks it has much more to do with pilot experience.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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I am not so sure how much he really knows of foreign carriers. Simply ascribing --- to instructor training is pretty bad. What, does he think
Lufthansa just chucks people into instructor status without training?

Also, his Lufthansa numbers are pretty wrong. Hilariously so.

Lufthansa training has 320 flying hours. Requirements for direct entry as a co-pilot are 600 hours. You cannot be a captain without 5000 flight hours as co-pilot and at least 8-12 years in service.

I don't know where he pulled those numbers from. Probably his backside.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

I read the link and here are my thoughts - WARNING, it's my usual rambling style:

As I noted, too much deference, expectations of deference, and failure to question authority is a problem to one degree or another everywhere - even in the maverick US it can be an issue. How this is handled in a country makes an enormous difference.

In the US, the authority of a pilot in command to question is repeated from day one. The authority of other flight crew - nay, their responsibility - is emphasized from day one. When preparing for a checkride it's considered fair game for your instructor to set you up in situations where you have to say "no". For my private checkride - keeping in mind that at the time that was the lowest level of license and flight authority - there were not one but two commands that were unsafe and in contradiction to regulations. If I have NOT refused to obey I would have not passed the test. This sort of thing - where a pilot's willingness to object on a basis of safety - is a routine part of flight testing in the US. Flight seminars emphasize that "the pilot is the final authority" means that the pilot can reject unsafe commands by an authority such as air traffic control (there is, of course, a proper way to do this, usually phrased "can not comply"). It is frequently emphasized that a good commander listens to the other flight crew - you can hear this if you listen to the tapes of the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight where, after committing to landing on the water and running all the checklists Captain Scully says to his co-pilot "Can you think of anything else we can do?". Among the Canadians (who have a very similar approach to training according the Canadian pilots I've spoken to) this was evident during the Gimli Glider incident when the captain handed the unpowered airliner over to his co-pilot... because the co-pilot's hobby was competitive gliding and thus he had thousands of hours of experience with unpowered gliders and the captain, who did not have such experience, felt the co-pilot was more qualified under the circumstances to do the actual flying. So, while there are still deference/hierarchy problems there is a lot of emphasis on minimizing problems, from how to tell a higher ranking pilot something important so he/she will listen to reminding the commanders to listen to subordinates and line personnel.

Enough about me and the North Americans (I know less about Mexican training, but the Mexican pilots I've met act very similar to the rest of the continents' pilots so I assume they have comparable training). Next relevant point: my local airport has a contract with the People's Republic of China to train pilots. Like Korea, China historically had no civilian general aviation but with their air travel exploding they desperately need pilots for civilian airlines, so then send them out for training. Doing this in the US is still cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and it also forces the pilots to learn functional English, the lingua franca of aviation. These guys now have the same flight instructors and examiners I did as well as flying the same airplanes. Speaking to those instructors, the one thing they say is hardest to teach these guys is how to say "no" when they should. These are really smart guys - from what I understand the selection process is extremely competitive - but they aren't American in culture. It's a real struggle for them at times. And I'm told the most common reason they fail a checkride is that failure to refuse to obey either an unsafe or unlawful command (as far as learning the book knowledge and manipulating the controls they're stellar - of course they are, they've been extensively vetted, they're highly motivated, and their government pays for everything so they can devote every waking hour to their lessons). Eventually they get it, at least to some degree, because the US training system demands it but while they might do it for a checkride here will they still do it when under pressure from their company/government/superior officer? One can only hope so. They're taken from very first time in the cockpit to multi-engine commercial ratings through this program, and given our location they're exposed to everything from grass strips mowed into a cornfield in farmland to places like Midway and O'Hare airport, and for darn sure they're taught how to fly a purely visual approach. They also get some bitchin' crosswinds to deal with, and extremes of hot and cold. About the only thing they don't get is mountain flying, at least around here - but hey, they have airplanes, they can go to the Rockies for some specific training in that area.

Back to Korea - if what is described in the link is true, and it very well could be because in the past various nations have taken that approach, lots of rote learning but too much deference to authority (by my own aviation culture standards). For the most part, that has been discarded because long term it doesn't work and it results in dead people. The US got over it in 1934 when the Army Air Force discovered the very hard way this does not work.* So it's entirely plausible that could be the situation in Korea, and it would certainly explain how such a highly experience pilot would be incapable of properly flying a visual approach in near-perfect weather. Which would be tragic if it's true. The main reason we have human beings in the cockpit these days is because people handle emergencies and the unexpected better than computers do... but ONLY if the humans are thoroughly trained.




* 66 accidents in just four months. The US Army Air Corps learned you can't order men to disregard the laws of physics. No matter how able or willing it just does not work.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

phongn wrote:Apparently there was a major uptick in go-arounds once the glidescope was down. The WSJ has an analysis. In short: foreign airlines rates went up much higher than domestic pilots.
This may be partly an artifact of the relatively less regulated US airspace. There are a lot of US airports with no instrument aids at all so it might be that during the initial part of a US pilot's career they get a lot more experience with visual approaches than a pilot from a country where almost all the airports have extensive landing aids. If that is the case, I'd expect that the go-around rates for Canadian and Australian pilots were also comparatively low.
phongn wrote:Phil Greenspun, who was a regional pilot and is now a helicopter pilot instructor, thinks it has much more to do with pilot experience.
Er... I'm not entirely comfortable with that article.

One flaw in his reckoning is that if the hypothetical foreign airline pilot is studying in the US his experience is going to be much more in line with US pilots, particularly if he's gaining instrument, commercial, and multi-engine ratings in the US. Foreign pilots certainly do study in the US, every airport I've been based at has had at least a few foreign pilots visiting the US for further study because flight instruction is significantly cheaper in the US than almost anywhere else in the world. Remember those Chinese pilots I mentioned at my local airport? Up through multi-engine training their logbook is going to look like a US pilot's because they ARE US (trained) pilots who are earning US certificates. With so many foreign governments and airlines sending their pilots to the US I would assume the differences are not so sharp as Greenspun implies. There are also US CFI's who are of foreign origin building time in the US working as CFI”s within the US system. For four of the years I flew out of my local airport the chief flight instructor at the school was a citizen of India (regrettably, he died before he could get the airline job he wanted). The lines are not nearly as sharply dividing as he implies.

The other thing is that Greenspun probably has a bias as a professional flight instructor. There are a lot of shitty CFI's out there (I once had one fall asleep during an instructional flight, leaving me, a pre-solo student, alone while transiting the airspace near O'Hare which was NOT a happy fun time) who are building time but no experience, and I am personally acquainted with a former airline pilot who hated instructing so much he found alternate employment to gain the needed hours (mostly flying canceled checks and other documents at night before the current ubiquity of faxes and e-mail). CFI is not the only way to gain hours nor do I think it's a magic bullet for flight training.

I also suspect he's comparing legal minimums for the foreign pilots with average experience for the US pilot. HUGE difference.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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He is either outright lying or ignorant about the necessary flying hours for Lufthansa pilots as well as I have pointed out.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by mr friendly guy »

@Broomstick
It is frequently emphasized that a good commander listens to the other flight crew - you can hear this if you listen to the tapes of the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight where, after committing to landing on the water and running all the checklists Captain Scully says to his co-pilot "Can you think of anything else we can do?".
I thought this was the standard. IIRC this came about because a famous or infamous flight where the junior pilot noticed a problem and he was told to STFU.

Generally the "leader" in this case is not treated in the same way as a traditional military model, where their is a leader and multiple followers who just obey. The leadership model involves the followers giving feedback into what needs to be done, and the leader digesting the information and making a decision. If the leader still doesn't do the right decision, the follower is supposed to restate it more forcefully, that is escalate how he/she states their opinion.

Now people might be interested in how I know this. Well this is the same sort of leadership structure hospitals use when we run resuscitation scenarios. Which we pinched from the aviation industry. Only difference is, resuscitation scenarios generally involve more followers.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by lPeregrine »

And this is especially worrying:
"Asked whether he was concerned about his ability to perform the visual approach while piloting Asiana Flight 214, he said 'very concerned, yea,'"
One of those very basic rules you're taught before even getting to solo is that if a landing looks bad and you aren't confident that you can safely fix the problem then abort the landing and try again. If conditions at that runway are beyond your limits then you find a better place to land, even if it means asking to use a different runway or even a different airport. You don't just keep flying along and hope that somehow everything will fix itself.

And yeah, I know that way too many people have flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground because they refused to admit failure and try again, but that kind of accident really shouldn't be happening to airline pilots!
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

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mr friendly guy wrote:@Broomstick
It is frequently emphasized that a good commander listens to the other flight crew - you can hear this if you listen to the tapes of the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight where, after committing to landing on the water and running all the checklists Captain Scully says to his co-pilot "Can you think of anything else we can do?".
I thought this was the standard.
It is supposed to be the standard world wide, though it has been put into practice better some places than others.
IIRC this came about because a famous or infamous flight where the junior pilot noticed a problem and he was told to STFU.
March 27, 1977 Tenerife, Canary Islands. Weather was also a complicating factor, but the key problem was that the KLM 747 captain took off with the Pan Am 747 still on the runway when he mistakenly through he had clearance, despite the (hesitant) questioning of that by his first officer and flight engineer. It is still the deadliest aviation accident on record.* It also changed the way ATC and pilots communicate, emphasizing standard phrasing and read-back of instructions.


* There are some people who maintain that the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center surpassed that, but I say that wasn't an accident, it was a deliberate.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

lPeregrine wrote:And this is especially worrying:
"Asked whether he was concerned about his ability to perform the visual approach while piloting Asiana Flight 214, he said 'very concerned, yea,'"
One of those very basic rules you're taught before even getting to solo is that if a landing looks bad and you aren't confident that you can safely fix the problem then abort the landing and try again. If conditions at that runway are beyond your limits then you find a better place to land, even if it means asking to use a different runway or even a different airport. You don't just keep flying along and hope that somehow everything will fix itself.

And yeah, I know that way too many people have flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground because they refused to admit failure and try again, but that kind of accident really shouldn't be happening to airline pilots!
Yes, I have a hard time with the notion that any pilot with a license would be "very concerned" about making a visual approach in clear, daylight weather.

Asiana is stating that they have no problem with their pilots doing a go-around, it's totally OK, no penalty, etc. but I have my doubts. Airlines are not enthused about rejected landings, they cost money, disrupt schedules, and too many will get a pilot pulled for a check flight. How many is "too many" is always the question. Well, if you have bad weather, or it's obviously not the airline pilot's problem, like someone driving a baggage cart onto a runway, that's one thing but I can't help but think a go-around in near-perfect weather is going to be viewed suspiciously, even if the occasional one shouldn't be.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:He is either outright lying or ignorant about the necessary flying hours for Lufthansa pilots as well as I have pointed out.
There is definitely something screwy there. Or, as you put it "hilarious".

I also take some exception to his statement no 24 year old would ever be at the controls of a full size airliner in the US. For a civilian pilot getting his license at 16 and flying 100 hours a month (the limit for commercial flying these days, though non-professional pilots are free to fly more often if they desire/can afford it) he could accumulate 9,600 hours by 24, which would more than give him the requisite hours required. He'd probably need wealthy parents to fund his education and flight time but it's certainly possible for someone to be fully qualified that young. Unusual, but quite possible. For a young military pilot exiting the military in his early 20's it could also happen although, as pointed out, most airline pilots in the US these days have no military background. There is the hitch that the minimum age for a full privilege ATP certificate in the US is 23, but for certain qualified individuals a "restricted" ATP is available between 21 and 23 which allows such a person to serve as co-pilot. Among those named as qualifying for that are former military pilots in that age rage with certain hour requirements, aviation college majors, and 21 year olds with at least 1,500, all of which do exist. While some airlines may have more restrictive minimum age requirements some of them (such as Southwest) seem to go with the bare FAA rules. I don't know if there are any 24 year old airline pilots in the US but it is certainly a possibility. If the FAA went to the trouble of writing a rule regarding ATP pilots between 21 and 23 there have to be some out there in the US, they wouldn't have bothered to address the issue if they didn't exist. European rules are probably pretty close to that, as both Europe and North American aviation authorities use the same international standards as a starting point.

Germany has a long history of great pilots starting very young. If anything, their standards are more stringent than the US. I know their medical standards are stricter than the US.

Age alone tells you very little about a pilot, really. I don't give a damn about a pilot's age, I care about that person's experience, judgment, and whether or not they can safely operate the airplane (in other words, can they pass the medical?).

Basically, Greenspun's statement doesn't pass the sniff test either with this pilot or with a layperson such as Thanas.
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Andras »

I posted this before but it's a video on automation dependency from an American Airlines instructor and very informative to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0rYX-Jn6o8
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Re: UPDATE: Asiana Flight 214 Crash at SFO July 2013

Post by Beowulf »

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:He is either outright lying or ignorant about the necessary flying hours for Lufthansa pilots as well as I have pointed out.
There is definitely something screwy there. Or, as you put it "hilarious".

I also take some exception to his statement no 24 year old would ever be at the controls of a full size airliner in the US. For a civilian pilot getting his license at 16 and flying 100 hours a month (the limit for commercial flying these days, though non-professional pilots are free to fly more often if they desire/can afford it) he could accumulate 9,600 hours by 24, which would more than give him the requisite hours required. He'd probably need wealthy parents to fund his education and flight time but it's certainly possible for someone to be fully qualified that young. Unusual, but quite possible. For a young military pilot exiting the military in his early 20's it could also happen although, as pointed out, most airline pilots in the US these days have no military background. There is the hitch that the minimum age for a full privilege ATP certificate in the US is 23, but for certain qualified individuals a "restricted" ATP is available between 21 and 23 which allows such a person to serve as co-pilot. Among those named as qualifying for that are former military pilots in that age rage with certain hour requirements, aviation college majors, and 21 year olds with at least 1,500, all of which do exist. While some airlines may have more restrictive minimum age requirements some of them (such as Southwest) seem to go with the bare FAA rules. I don't know if there are any 24 year old airline pilots in the US but it is certainly a possibility. If the FAA went to the trouble of writing a rule regarding ATP pilots between 21 and 23 there have to be some out there in the US, they wouldn't have bothered to address the issue if they didn't exist. European rules are probably pretty close to that, as both Europe and North American aviation authorities use the same international standards as a starting point.
Mil pilots have a 10 year Active Duty Service Commitment. An officer needs a degree, which implies they commission at 21-22 years old (younger would be possible, but those driven to complete a degree at a younger age usually don't go to become a pilot). They may get forced out early, but that's still going to be late 20s.
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