OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by mr friendly guy »

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Fields of beaten gold

Greens say climate-change deniers are unscientific and dangerous. So are greens who oppose GM crops
Dec 7th 2013 | From the print edition

IN AUGUST environmentalists in the Philippines vandalised a field of Golden Rice, an experimental grain whose genes had been modified to carry beta-carotene, a chemical precursor of vitamin A. Golden Rice is not produced by a corporate behemoth but by the public sector. Its seeds will be handed out free to farmers. The aim is to improve the health of children in poor countries by reducing vitamin A deficiency, which contributes to hundreds of thousands of premature deaths and cases of blindness each year.

Environmentalists claim that these sorts of actions are justified because genetically modified (GM) crops pose health risks. Now the main ground for those claims has crumbled.

Last year a paper was published in a respected journal, Food and Chemical Toxicology. It found unusual rates of tumours and deaths in rats that had been fed upon a variety of maize resistant to a herbicide called Roundup, as a result of genetic modification by Monsanto, an American plant-science firm. Other studies found no such effects, but this one enabled campaigners to make a health-and-safety argument against GM crops—one persuasive enough to influence governments. After the study appeared, Russia suspended imports of the grain in question. Kenya banned all GM crops. And the French prime minister said that if the results were confirmed he would press for a Europe-wide ban on the GM maize.

But the methodology of the study, by Gilles-Eric Séralini of the University of Caen and colleagues, was widely criticised and, on November 28th, the journal retracted the paper (see article). There is now no serious scientific evidence that GM crops do any harm to the health of human beings.

There is plenty of evidence, though, that they benefit the health of the planet. One of the biggest challenges facing mankind is to feed the 9 billion-10 billion people who will be alive and (hopefully) richer in 2050. This will require doubling food production on roughly the same area of land, using less water and fewer chemicals. It will also mean making food crops more resistant to the droughts and floods that seem likely if climate change is a bad as scientists fear.

Organic farming—the kind beloved of greens—cannot meet this challenge. It uses far too much land. If the Green revolution had never happened, and yields had stayed at 1960 levels, the world could not produce its current food output even if it ploughed up every last acre of cultivable land.

In contrast, GM crops boost yields, protecting wild habitat from the plough. They are more resistant to the vagaries of climate change, and to diseases and pests, reducing the need for agrochemicals. Genetic research holds out the possibility of breakthroughs that could vastly increase the productivity of farming, such as grains that fix their own nitrogen. Vandalising GM field trials is a bit like the campaign of some religious leaders to prevent smallpox inoculations: it causes misery, even death, in the name of obscurantism and unscientific belief.

Follow your principles
America takes little notice of this nonsense. But green groups in Europe, with the support of influential figures such as Prince Charles, have succeeded in shaping policy. Governments have hedged genetic research around with so many restrictions that much of the business has fled a continent that could be doing more than most to feed the world. Some developing countries—Kenya, India and others—have turned their backs on technologies that could literally save their peoples’ lives. And European governments spend taxpayers’ money financing groups encouraging them to do so. The group in the Philippines that trashed the rice trials, MASIPAG, gets money from the Swedish government. On moral, economic and environmental grounds, this must stop.

In the field of climate change, environmentalists insist that the scientific consensus should frame policy. They should follow that principle with GM crops, and abandon a campaign that impoverishes people and the rest of the planet.
Note the Séralini utilised rats which are prone to develop cancer anyway (over eighty percent of males and over seventy percent of females got cancer under normal conditions). To make this even better, he only used a small number of rats per group limiting its statistical power. Think of it this way. If I had a die and I was told it was weighted to land on a six, can I tell from the number of rolls I make. If I used a high number of rolls, like 100 rolls and it all landed on six, then it would be a safe bet. If I only did one roll, and it landed on six, it doesn't mean much because its not unreasonable to expect a first roll to land on a six (1 in 6 chances). Same principle with the number of rats. Just as you need more rolls of the die to see how statistically probable a given outcome is, you need lots of rats, especially given that a high percentage of the rats he used will develop tumours anyway.

Funny thing is, the group of rats which developed less tumours than the one fed organic food was the one fed the pesticide round up. No doubt he chose not to focus on that point since the anti GMO angle was that Round up tolerant maize was more toxic (presumably because they used more round up pesticide on it).

Going on, the other thing the OP mentioned was Golden rice. This is a GMO where 3 genes are changed in rice allowing it to produce β-carotene, the precursor to vitamin A. Note rice does have β-carotene in its leaves, but not in the part we eat. Vitamin A deficiency is a problem particularly in the developing world, although it is improving in some countries. This is a topic that interests me, so I kept an eye on development. Currently after testing, approval is being sought for the Phillipines government to grow it. This would make the Phillipines the first country to grow a so called GMO rice (if approved). China is rumoured to be developing a GMO rice as well. Of course, the rice we eat now has been genetically modified, just not via the means environmental groups such as Greenpeace object to. Anyone who is interested can google hybrid rice, and China.

Now Vitamin D deficiency is well, bad. Among other things it causes blindness, impaired immune function and leads to death.

One of the strongest opponent if not the strongest against Golden Rice is YellowGreenpeace. Here is their propaganda.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... lden-Rice/

Greenpeace believes in the Marie Antoinette 1 quote of "let them eat cake." You see, some people are so poor that most of their diet is rice. Its difficult to get other Vitamin A rich foods to where they live (ie isolated rural areas). Its actually cheaper to feed them GM rice. For example Supplementation programs costs $4,300 for every life they save in India, whereas fortification programs cost about $2,700 for each life saved. Whereas golden rice would cost just $100 for every life saved from vitamin A deficiency. Yep, these poor people can't get much of these other foods with vitamin, but don't worry, let them eat these foods anyway. Naturally despite whining about the tens of millions of dollars being wasted on golden rice when it could have been better spent on supplements, one wonders why GP doesn't mention how much of its €236.9 million budget (2011) were spent on these programs.

Greenpeace of course is not above destroying fields where GMOs are being grown, although their vandalism seems confine to Australia and Europe. The Golden Rice field that was attacked in Asia earlier this year was done by MASIPAG. Fortunately the Golden rice field that was attack was only one of many and enough data has been gathered. Note Greenpeace supported the destruction.

Funny thing is, Greenpeace criticises fellow environmental fanatic group Sea Shepherd for using violence against Japanese whalers. Even though a total of ZERO Japanese whalers died when Sea Shepherd confronted them. 2. This of course begs the question, how many children have died from vitamin A deficiency related causes because Greenpeace and fellow environmental groups like Friends of the Earth and Food First tried their best to delay GR being tested, since it was available in 2000. Equal to the amount of Japanese whalers on their ships at risk from Sea Shepherd's antics? How about 1 million. Maybe 2 million. Try 8 million. But don't worry, Greenpeace abhors the violence of Sea Shepherd because of the potential to cause loss of life.

You know for a group which extols how bad violence is because of the"potential consequences" they sure have a lot of blood on their hands.

This is why I detest some of these environmental groups. They are not only unscientific in their endeavours, hypocritical, but inhumane as well. But hey, Greenpeace gives the middle finger to Tsar Putin so they are ok. :D

1 Yes I am aware that while this quote is commonly attributed to her in popular culture, she most probably didn't say it
2 In fact, there was a loss of life when a Japanese whaler fell overboard..... when Sea Shepherd wasn't around. The latter volunteered to help look, the whalers told them no.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Lagmonster »

I still haven't forgiven them for what they did to the wheat trial at the CSIRO facility at Ginninderra. And then they have incidents like in Germany at Gross Lüsewitz in 2011 when activists physically threatened guards with baseball bats and pepper spray, blinded them with headlights, and destroyed some more work. Bunch of anti-science zealots who think they have a right to 'defend themselves' from progress and development.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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Shame we can't convince them to try and live that way on another planet.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Irbis »

Is there any way Greenpeace is even remotely connected to reality? :roll:

From outright ban of nuclear power to GMOs, none of their claims seem to have been based on anything rational. Sure, NPPs and GMO are dangerous technologies that should be kept out of the hands of 'cut corners for profit' people, but correctly used they both save environment, unlike the snake oils Greenpeace pushes instead.

Also, their public mobbing of people for money is despicable, but that is purely personal experience.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Irbis wrote:Is there any way Greenpeace is even remotely connected to reality? :roll:

From outright ban of nuclear power to GMOs, none of their claims seem to have been based on anything rational. Sure, NPPs and GMO are dangerous technologies that should be kept out of the hands of 'cut corners for profit' people, but correctly used they both save environment, unlike the snake oils Greenpeace pushes instead.

Also, their public mobbing of people for money is despicable, but that is purely personal experience.
Yes there is. They acknowledge climate change exists. Other than that, I am drawing a blank.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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mr friendly guy wrote:Yes there is. They acknowledge climate change exists. Other than that, I am drawing a blank.
Overfishing, deforestation, pollution, pollutants in food and water, misuse of "green" labels...GMO is only a small part of what they do.

As for GMO, I myself don't share the concerns and do eat engineered food when abroad. However, when companies and Government agencies regularly screw up that only helps them (for example at Groß-Lüttewitz the field used was actually not cleared by the Governement agency and just this weekend the EU General court ruled that the Commission had violated procedural rules by allowing GM potatoes to be planted and sold).
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Irbis »

mr friendly guy wrote:Yes there is. They acknowledge climate change exists. Other than that, I am drawing a blank.
Oh, but is their version of what they call climate change connected to reality? :wink:

I skimmed their site and their look on it seems to be based on old scientific papers, though I guess they can't be blamed for it, powerful lobbies do a lot to silence most pessimistic predictions*.

*like the fact global warming can cause much worse things than animal migrations or climate changes.
Thanas wrote:Overfishing, deforestation, pollution, pollutants in food and water, misuse of "green" labels...
Yes, but going about it in flashy displays instead of tackling the source of problem (and the fact a lot of their "solutions" would actually hurt environment in far worse ways) plus the fact quite a lot of their self-promoting stunts just give ammo to people dismissing real ecological concerns out of hand show that maybe, just maybe having right motives some of the time isn't enough.

To give example of Polish movements for democracy pre-1989, one worked to shift the views of the populace and the ruling party, to bring peaceful change, and one just gathered mobs that threw rocks and iron screws at riot police. Greenpeace is the second kind, flashy outbursts that almost never work.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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Irbis wrote:
Thanas wrote:Overfishing, deforestation, pollution, pollutants in food and water, misuse of "green" labels...
Yes, but going about it in flashy displays instead of tackling the source of problem (and the fact a lot of their "solutions" would actually hurt environment in far worse ways) plus the fact quite a lot of their self-promoting stunts just give ammo to people dismissing real ecological concerns out of hand show that maybe, just maybe having right motives some of the time isn't enough.
Given that the other side does much more dangerous stunts (for example, the operators of one of our nuclear plants were notorious for hiding failures even from the authorities, only now has it come to light that they systematically hid dozens of serious problems) and that they have no problems of lying (see the above example) I find the Greenpeace stunts to be relatively mundane in comparison. What is more hurtful, throwing paint at a nuclear power plant or hiding problems with operating said plant?

Fact is, without Greenpeace we would not have such strict environmental controls. That is a momentous achievement in itself and which is worth for me to tolerate shrieking coming from them.
To give example of Polish movements for democracy pre-1989, one worked to shift the views of the populace and the ruling party, to bring peaceful change, and one just gathered mobs that threw rocks and iron screws at riot police. Greenpeace is the second kind, flashy outbursts that almost never work.
Except they do work in this case.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Irbis »

Thanas wrote:Given that the other side does much more dangerous stunts (for example, the operators of one of our nuclear plants were notorious for hiding failures even from the authorities, only now has it come to light that they systematically hid dozens of serious problems) and that they have no problems of lying (see the above example) I find the Greenpeace stunts to be relatively mundane in comparison. What is more hurtful, throwing paint at a nuclear power plant or hiding problems with operating said plant?
First, was it private operator? And one example proves what, exactly?

Second, what is more hurtful, nuclear power that so far killed no one in Germany, or pushing "organic" farming where bad handling of fertilizing manure can cause huge outbreak of Coli infection (including massive cases like the one in Germany a few years ago) easily killing dozens? See how easy it is?
Fact is, without Greenpeace we would not have such strict environmental controls. That is a momentous achievement in itself and which is worth for me to tolerate shrieking coming from them.
Without Greenpeace or actual university scientists persuading with real arguments? Them being most loud doesn't mean most effective.
Except they do work in this case.
If by 'work' you mean 'create irrational, baseless fears of GMO and nuclear power', sadly, yes, they work. Unless Bavaria started experiencing tsunamis when I wasn't looking.

Had their solutions were of comparable quality, maybe they would have a point, but both renewables and organic farming devour land so fast if employed in quantity there won't be any environment left to protect.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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Irbis wrote:First, was it private operator?
All nuclear power plants in Germany are privately operated.
And one example proves what, exactly?
It is not just one example. There is a disgusting pattern on the part of German energy companies of lying to the Government, media and public for over a decade.
Second, what is more hurtful, nuclear power that so far killed no one in Germany, or pushing "organic" farming where bad handling of fertilizing manure can cause huge outbreak of Coli infection (including massive cases like the one in Germany a few years ago) easily killing dozens? See how easy it is?
One is an accident, the other is deliberately lying to regulatory agencies.
Without Greenpeace or actual university scientists persuading with real arguments? Them being most loud doesn't mean most effective.
They do if they can get political parties to listen and actually influence elections.
If by 'work' you mean 'create irrational, baseless fears of GMO and nuclear power', sadly, yes, they work. Unless Bavaria started experiencing tsunamis when I wasn't looking.
Or including such things like fisheries regulation, more stricter enforcement of nuclear power guidelines, the state investing in solar and wind power....not everything is bad just because they oppose two pets of yours.
Had their solutions were of comparable quality, maybe they would have a point, but both renewables and organic farming devour land so fast if employed in quantity there won't be any environment left to protect.
I was unaware that Greenpeace was lobbying to have non-organic farming outlawed. Meanwhile, Germany gets about 25% of its electricity from renewable sources yet I have not noticed land being devoured. Please back up those horror scenarios of yours.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think the concern is that when Greenpeace veers off into indiscriminate harassment of everything they deem to be not environmentally friendly enough, they can have a lot of unintended consequences. If they are insensitive to these consequences, then it's quite reasonable to condemn them for those actions.

If there are ongoing mass deaths and sickness from vitamin deficiencies, and Greenpeace is harassing an organization trying to develop cheap GMO crops to stop that, then that should be weighed in the balance against Greenpeace. Sort of like we criticize the Catholic church for the consequences of their efforts to prevent birth control.

We don't say "the Church operates subsidized schools for orphans, so let's not worry about their role in causing population explosions in developing countries," or even "so let's not worry about ties to violent organizations." We can approve of schools for orphans while thinking the organization as a whole is a net negative, or at least we seem to be able to do so on SDN.

So I fail to see the problem with thinking "Greenpeace deserves credit for participating in environmental campaigns, but deserves criticism for trying to stop cheap Vitamin A from getting to Indian children via genetically engineered crops."
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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It is fair to criticize them for that. It is not fair to condemn the entire organization, including all the good they achieved, for one aspect.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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Even PETA does some good though?
Greenpeace definitely needs some reform
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Simon_Jester »

I might also ask, to what extent is Greenpeace responsible for things like better environmental laws? Greenpeace is not the entire environmentalist movement. Maybe the people who condemn Greenpeace see the movement as a whole as responsible for many of the good things that you attribute to it personally, Thanas.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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My condemnation of Greenpeace is based on their actions for, say the last decade and a bit.

Now I have no problems with saying GP were a force which brought good changes... when they were first founded and some countries still considered it a charity. In those days they had Paul Watson (who went on to find Sea Shepherd) put his body on the line to combat seal hunters and Patrick Moore who provided the scientific knowledge. Then it became taken over by people with a background in business and were more interested in raising money for the sake of the organisation, rather than for the sake of the environment.

To give examples.

They no longer even send a ship to observe or try to shout down Japanese whalers. Sea Shepherd does that. I think its fair to say the latter is more successful in reducing whale kills.

They protested against nuclear power in a time during the cold war when people were afraid of nuclear war. However civilian nukes are another matter, especially at a time of climate change and a time where the cold war is over. This unscientific viewpoint has been criticised by one of GP's founders, Patrick Moore. *

They display little interest in sustainability. Two examples of this. The first is that GP oppose aquaculture, even though by farming fish instead of fishing for them, we can combat over fishing. Two their attacks on the forestry industry (even though the US forestry industry for example sustains itself with new plantings) but misses the point why a lot of forests are logged in the first place. To make way for farmland. Again GP opposes GMO which can reduce the need to log these forests.

Now saying that German nuclear companies lie is bad is fair enough. Aren't Greenpeace also lying about GMOs? Oh yes they are. However at the end of the day we have to ask ourselves, how many people died from civilian nuclear plant accidents in Germany (actually lets do the whole world) compared to how many people died from vitamin A deficiency? I think everyone who isn't a loon knows the figures are quite heavily stacked one way, and it ain't in Greenpeace's favour. Moreover nuclear power is currently more effective than the alternative sources Greenpeace champions for combating climate change. So if GP gets credit for the use of wind and solar, the nuclear industry gets more credit.

*Note due to hijacking Doctor Who's TARDIS, Greenpeace has altered their own personal history such that both Moore and Watson were no longer founders, just "early members."
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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Simon_Jester wrote:I might also ask, to what extent is Greenpeace responsible for things like better environmental laws? Greenpeace is not the entire environmentalist movement.
Greenpeace is the first huge international organization. They partner with dozens of national organizations. I cannot prove that they are personally responsible for every law ever, but they sure as hell play a large part in mobilizing opinion.
Maybe the people who condemn Greenpeace see the movement as a whole as responsible for many of the good things that you attribute to it personally, Thanas.
Oh, so where are those members calling for nuclear companies to lose their license and stop producing in Germany?
mr friendly guy wrote:They display little interest in sustainability. Two examples of this. The first is that GP oppose aquaculture, even though by farming fish instead of fishing for them, we can combat over fishing.
This is a big fat misconception. To use aquaculture we fish other oceans dry to provide fish for that aquaculture. We also introduce other stuff like antibiotics en masse into those cultures and we also pollute the water the culture is based in. I am sure Greenpeace would have no problem if we would stop using these things but in the interest of cheapness we do not.
Now saying that German nuclear companies lie is bad is fair enough. Aren't Greenpeace also lying about GMOs? Oh yes they are. However at the end of the day we have to ask ourselves, how many people died from civilian nuclear plant accidents in Germany (actually lets do the whole world) compared to how many people died from vitamin A deficiency? I think everyone who isn't a loon knows the figures are quite heavily stacked one way, and it ain't in Greenpeace's favour. Moreover nuclear power is currently more effective than the alternative sources Greenpeace champions for combating climate change. So if GP gets credit for the use of wind and solar, the nuclear industry gets more credit.
If a nuclear industry has shown to be responsible and well run, like the Swedish one for example, I have no problem with it. The German nuclear industry is neither responsible or well run.

Also, Greenpeace is a lobbying organization. The nuclear industry is charged with the public's well-beeping. They should be held to a vastly higher standard.

As to the rest of your points, they are valid criticisms but again, I fail to see how one should therefore discredit everything Greenpeace that. If we establish that standard to everything, we should lobby against everything. It is a damned high standard to shit on Greenpeace (a private group of idealists) for not being perfect while also not shitting on GMO corps for failing to obey basic laws and regulations, or for the bureaucrats to fail using basic protocol while trying to push through GMO.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Thanas »

Kitsune wrote:Even PETA does some good though?
Sure. Your point?
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Kitsune »

Of note, you can feed at least carp a purely vegetable based feed
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote: Oh, so where are those members calling for nuclear companies to lose their license and stop producing in Germany?
Er Thanas, Greenpeace wants the end of nuclear power everywhere.

http://www.energyblueprint.info/fileadm ... lution.pdf
The European Renewable Energy Council (EREC) and Greenpeace
International
have produced this global energy scenario as a practical
blueprint for how to urgently meet CO2 reduction targets and secure
affordable energy supply on the basis of steady worldwide economic
development. Both these important aims are possible at the same time.
The urgent need for change in the energy sector means that the
scenario is based only on proven and sustainable technologies, such as
renewable energy sources and efficient decentralised cogeneration. It
therefore excludes “CO2-free coal power plants” and nuclear energy
And just in case we didn't get the message earlier.
We therefore call on decision makers around the world to make this
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Thanas wrote:If a nuclear industry has shown to be responsible and well run, like the Swedish one for example, I have no problem with it. The German nuclear industry is neither responsible or well run.
And if GP focus in on improving the nuclear industry as a whole, I wouldn't have a problem with that. However they don't, even in countries like Sweden (your example) and France which also has vast experience with nuclear, they want to end it. Just google Greenpeace, nuclear + <insert country here> and you can see their ILLEGAL antics in regards to this.

Thanas wrote:As to the rest of your points, they are valid criticisms but again, I fail to see how one should therefore discredit everything Greenpeace that. If we establish that standard to everything, we should lobby against everything. It is a damned high standard to shit on Greenpeace (a private group of idealists) for not being perfect while also not shitting on GMO corps for failing to obey basic laws and regulations, or for the bureaucrats to fail using basic protocol while trying to push through GMO.
I don't disagree with everything they say. For example I agree that climate change is a problem even if I strongly disagree with how they address it.

However for a lot of issues, their dishonesty (eg anti nuclear, anti GMO propaganda) should in itself discredit them as a credible source on a lot of issues. That in itself would make me mock them, but not detest them necessarily. When they blatantly commit wanton property destruction of GMO crops in Australia and Europe and try to retard human knowledge and scientific progress then I start hating them. When their actions actually lead to the suffering and deaths of millions of humans then I detest them. I mean how low must we go standards wise, before it becomes fair in your opinion to "discredit" GP. When their actions have led to tens of millions of people dying?
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Thanas »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Thanas wrote: Oh, so where are those members calling for nuclear companies to lose their license and stop producing in Germany?
Er Thanas, Greenpeace wants the end of nuclear power everywhere.
No, I meant those board members who hold Greenpeace to a very high standard. They should at least be calling for the heads of nuclear energy in Germany, no?

However for a lot of issues, their dishonesty (eg anti nuclear, anti GMO propaganda) should in itself discredit them as a credible source on a lot of issues. That in itself would make me mock them, but not detest them necessarily. When they blatantly commit wanton property destruction of GMO crops in Australia and Europe and try to retard human knowledge and scientific progress then I start hating them. When their actions actually lead to the suffering and deaths of millions of humans then I detest them. I mean how low must we go standards wise, before it becomes fair in your opinion to "discredit" GP. When their actions have led to tens of millions of people dying?
Since when is Greenpeace personally responsible for the death of every human being who dies of malnutrition?

Blaming Greenpeace for stopping GMO is pretty much pointless IMO. You have lobby organizations against everything in every society ever. Yet we generally do not argue for the abolishment of things despite it having negative consequences (otherwise we would be arguing against the rights of China to exist for example). No, we do allow those things called states to exist. Also,

I shall also note that GMO is not illegal in the EU and if the people providing GMO would be actually competent at their job and PR we would not have this problem. Greenpeace would be nothing if not for popular anti-GMO sentiment. Turns out when you repeatedly break the law and not follow procedure people start to not trust you. The same applies to the nuclear industry. I lay the blame at least as much at the feet of those organizations.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote: No, I meant those board members who hold Greenpeace to a very high standard. They should at least be calling for the heads of nuclear energy in Germany, no?
Fair enough. Assuming you are accurate in your description, then yes, they should resign. That should also be weighed against the fact that zero people have died, and thus their crimes should not include any responsibility for people dying.

Since when is Greenpeace personally responsible for the death of every human being who dies of malnutrition?
If they go out of their way to stop the administration of life saving means based on ideology, then yes they do bear some responsibility. Just like parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids or let them undergo medical treatment because of religious conviction will bear responsibility. Despite Greenpeace's best efforts we now know that golden rice does deliver sufficient vitamin A to kids in the quantities they eat to ameliorate vitamin A deficiency. Despite GP shrieking that those Chinese kids were "experimented" on in the trial which proved it. It even freaked out the Chinese government.

So yes, they did stop a treatment that was known to work. Same moral situation as the anti vaxers.
Thanas wrote: Blaming Greenpeace for stopping GMO is pretty much pointless IMO. You have lobby organizations against everything in every society ever. Yet we generally do not argue for the abolishment of things despite it having negative consequences (otherwise we would be arguing against the rights of China to exist for example). No, we do allow those things called states to exist.
Then I would also blame these other lobby groups if Greenpeace never argued against GMOs. Moreover, states themselves are subjected to consequences for certain negative actions as well, even if the state continues to exist. For example states do compensate people for wrongs such as wrongful jailing. At least Australia does anyway.

I also don't argue for GP's abolishment or to be made illegal. Maybe an admission that they screwed up and lots of people died because of it. Then followed by donating money to help golden rice get set up.
Thanas wrote: Also,

I shall also note that GMO is not illegal in the EU and if the people providing GMO would be actually competent at their job and PR we would not have this problem. Greenpeace would be nothing if not for popular anti-GMO sentiment. Turns out when you repeatedly break the law and not follow procedure people start to not trust you. The same applies to the nuclear industry. I lay the blame at least as much at the feet of those organizations.
Yet GP gets the benefit of the doubt when they break the law? You're skating on thin ice here if you're arguing it boils down to poor PR on one side. You know very well its much harder to distil complicated scientific concepts into a few sound bytes, while its much easier for the anti science crowd to spin bullshit. Not everyone is a Mike Wong. :D But I think I am getting the hang of it.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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mr friendly guy wrote:They display little interest in sustainability. Two examples of this. The first is that GP oppose aquaculture, even though by farming fish instead of fishing for them, we can combat over fishing.
The benefits of fish farming come with drawbacks, as Thanas has noted.

The US has developed some sustainable fisheries for salmon, crab, and lobster (probably others as well, but those are the ones I'm familiar with). This is contingent on actually enforcing fishing laws, which in the case of the US is done by the Coast Guard, an arm of the US military, along with various state and Federal management agencies. The US is powerful enough to enforce laws in their territorial waters even in regards to foreign ships, which not every nation can do. It means highly limited seasons, and the fact that such fish aren't the cheapest of food (although Alaskan salmon is plentiful enough that it's available to poor people if they want it). We also don't have huge numbers of people engaging in subsistence fishing. Some poaching goes on, I'm sure, but it's not sufficient to destroy the fisheries. So sustainable fishing of wild stocks is possible.

The problem is that you can't translate that to nations that are bursting at the seam with poor people, lack regulations, and lack effective enforcement mechanisms.

Tilapia mitigate some of the problems of aquaculture in that they will happily eat a vegetarian diet, which reduces pressure on other fish, but there is still the problem of any modern farming practices, from antibiotic overuse to waste disposal problems to the use of hormones on the young fish to ensure nearly all are male (otherwise, you get a lot of very small fish as they breed rather than larger fish preferred by consumers).
Two their attacks on the forestry industry (even though the US forestry industry for example sustains itself with new plantings) but misses the point why a lot of forests are logged in the first place. To make way for farmland. Again GP opposes GMO which can reduce the need to log these forests.
Great example of attacking a generality instead of the specifics. They should be supporting sustainable forestry management while condemning the harmful varieties.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

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mr friendly guy wrote:
Thanas wrote: No, I meant those board members who hold Greenpeace to a very high standard. They should at least be calling for the heads of nuclear energy in Germany, no?
Fair enough. Assuming you are accurate in your description, then yes, they should resign. That should also be weighed against the fact that zero people have died, and thus their crimes should not include any responsibility for people dying.
I am glad that you support shutting down nuclear power in its current form in Germany.
If they go out of their way to stop the administration of life saving means based on ideology, then yes they do bear some responsibility. Just like parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids or let them undergo medical treatment because of religious conviction will bear responsibility. Despite Greenpeace's best efforts we now know that golden rice does deliver sufficient vitamin A to kids in the quantities they eat to ameliorate vitamin A deficiency. Despite GP shrieking that those Chinese kids were "experimented" on in the trial which proved it. It even freaked out the Chinese government.
I haven't heard them freaking out the Chinese Government - where does this come from and what results did it have?
I also don't argue for GP's abolishment or to be made illegal. Maybe an admission that they screwed up and lots of people died because of it. Then followed by donating money to help golden rice get set up.
I am sure they will completely put themselves forever at a disadvantage when it comes to the propaganda war. Maybe after the GMO organizations apologized for breaking the laws first. But if nobody is willing to budge, I don't get demanding one organization unilaterally fall on its sword.
Yet GP gets the benefit of the doubt when they break the law?
Not in my book. I however do realize that they are up against a giant industry and that their actions are generally against targets which should or would be illegal anyway.
You're skating on thin ice here if you're arguing it boils down to poor PR on one side. You know very well its much harder to distil complicated scientific concepts into a few sound bytes, while its much easier for the anti science crowd to spin bullshit.
Have you actually heard worldwide news picking up the fact that the latest GMO potato ruling of the EU court declared that the commission erred in allowing GMO planting? When Greenpeace does something it is big news. When GMO fail to plant the correct crop it is shrugged over.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote: I am glad that you support shutting down nuclear power in its current form in Germany.
Is this supposed to be a "gotcha" moment. :D If replacing heads with someone else = shutting down in its current form then yeah, ok strictly you can say current form. Although most people when they use that phrase think of much bigger changes.
Thanas wrote: I haven't heard them freaking out the Chinese Government - where does this come from and what results did it have?
Greenpeace propaganda
24 children used as guinea pigs in genetically engineered "Golden Rice" trial

How would you feel if I told you that a group of scientists had come to the United States, and fed a group of 24 children aged between six and eight years of age a potentially dangerous product?

What if I told you that state authorities had come out publicly with clear directives against this very experiment, and yet the experiment had continued regardless?

You'd be pretty outraged, right?

Well this is what we believe is happening, EXCEPT that it is happening on Chinese soil and on Chinese children (and I hope you've managed to maintain that outrage.)

We discovered this in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition that published a study backed by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) and that involved feeding genetically engineered (GE) Golden Rice to a group of 24 boys and girls in Hunan province, China, aged between six and eight years old.
Sounds scary right. Chinese kids being experimented on by TEH EVIL Americans.

Since GP obviously linked to the journal article in question, one presumes they have read it. Here is an open access copy of the article.

http://www.goldenrice.org/PDFs/GR_bioav ... CN2012.pdf
Objective: The objective was to compare the vitamin A value of
b-carotene in GR and in spinach with that of pure b-carotene in oil
when consumed by children
Note the test as stated wasn't to see if GR is safe. It to see if children can absorb sufficient amounts of beta carotene from GR.

Interesting tidbits from the study.
Conclusions: The b-carotene in GR is as effective as pure b-carotene
in oil and better than that in spinach at providing vitamin A to children.
A bowl of w100 to 150 g cooked GR (50 g dry weight) can
provide w60% of the Chinese Recommended Nutrient Intake of
vitamin A for 6–8-y-old children. This trial was registered at http://www.clinicaltrials.
gov as NCT00680212. Am J Clin Nutr 2012;96:658–64.
The study was carried out in an elementary school in the
Hunan province of China in healthy schoolchildren (with normal
biochemical test results; see below) aged 6–8 y either initially
free of parasitic infection or verified free of infection after
treatment with 400 mg albendazole (GlaxoSmithKline). Most
area residents were local, middle-income, rural, and working
people. Forty-eight percent of the study subjects who were treated
(no side effects) were recruited to participate in the study
1 mo before the start of the study meals
.
Study design
The subjects were randomly assigned (using a computergenerated
random numbers table) to take spinach, GR, or
b-carotene in oil capsule. The full study lasted 35 d and included
a 14-d diet preparation period, during which time the children
(without parasitic infection) tried study meals provided by the
kitchen that was set up to provide these meals, and during which
time the parents were informed on dietary restrictions for their
children during the study
Across all our subjects, no side effects or abnormalities were observed during this
study in any individual who consumed the labeled spinach, GR, or the b-carotene in oil capsule with their meal. Furthermore, no abnormalities or complaints were reported after the completion of the study during a 1-y follow-up period.
So not only was it safe, provided the amounts of vitamin A, and parents informed (kind of hard not to know when GR is different colour to the regular white rice Chinese eat). And the article was available one year prior to GP scare piece.

But after GP scare campaign, here was the Chinese government's response.

http://english.cri.cn/6909/2012/09/11/2561s721658.htm
GM Rice Test Researcher Suspended from Work
2012-09-11 00:43:19 Xinhua Web Editor: Liuyuanhui
A Chinese researcher involved in the controversial testing of genetically modified (GM) rice has been suspended from his work and put under investigation, the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (China CDC) reported on Monday evening.

China CDC, under orders from the Ministry of Health, is investigating whether dozens of children in central China's Hunan Province were used in 2008 as test subjects in a U.S.-China joint research project that included GM food Golden Rice.

Greenpeace broke the news on the controversial test in late August, saying that the joint research involved feeding Golden Rice, which is genetically modified to be rich in beta carotene, to 24 children aged between six and eight years old in Hunan. It cited a paper published in the August edition of The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

The paper claimed that Golden Rice is effective in providing vitamin A to kids.

China CDC reported the latest progress of the investigation, saying its fellow researcher Yin Shi'an, the third author of the paper, was inconsistent in his accounts during the investigation. As a result, China CDC has suspended his work and put him under further investigation.
So unless you think these journal authors are lying about people being informed, then yeah the Chinese authorities freaked. Amazing, even the CCP is vulnerable to the power of hysteria.
Thanas wrote: I am sure they will completely put themselves forever at a disadvantage when it comes to the propaganda war. Maybe after the GMO organizations apologized for breaking the laws first. But if nobody is willing to budge, I don't get demanding one organization unilaterally fall on its sword.
I am not going to defend a big company per se. I defend the science and the humanitarian projects. The science is on one side (and that includes the big GMO companies). The humanitarian part is on the produces of GR, which is largely humanitarian. Don't believe me, the companies plan is to make money selling their products to developed nations. For developing nations its free if the value of your crop is less than $10,000 USD. According to GP it took tens of millions of dollars to develop Golden Rice. Greenpeace's annual budget on hundreds of millions of Euro surpasses that.
Thanas wrote: Not in my book. I however do realize that they are up against a giant industry and that their actions are generally against targets which should or would be illegal anyway.
All of them? Where the wheat crops in Australia illegal. No. It was planted by Australia's own CSIRO. Where the GMO in the UK illegal. No. Although GP used a bullshit legal loophole to get around that.

Again as I will reiterate. GP annual budget surpasses what they claim cost to developed Golden Rice. It's a David and Goliath battle al right. Only Greenpeace is Goliath.

Have you actually heard worldwide news picking up the fact that the latest GMO potato ruling of the EU court declared that the commission erred in allowing GMO planting? When Greenpeace does something it is big news. When GMO fail to plant the correct crop it is shrugged over.
Greenpeace are attention whores, so of course their actions get more noticed. I can just turn it around and point out most people haven't heard of Golden Rice even though it was featured in TIME magazine in 2000, but most people are aware of GP anti GMO stance.
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Re: OP - fields of beaten gold (GMO piece)

Post by Thanas »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Thanas wrote: I am glad that you support shutting down nuclear power in its current form in Germany.
Is this supposed to be a "gotcha" moment. :D If replacing heads with someone else = shutting down in its current form then yeah, ok strictly you can say current form. Although most people when they use that phrase think of much bigger changes.
I am confused. Are you now saying we should judge large organizations not by the actions of their CEOs? Are you now claiming that we should view those actions as an isolated few, apart from the large organizations on whose behalf they act? Why are you not extending the same benefit to Greenpeace (after all, only low-level people there are doing the destruction, whereas we here have CEOs acting directly?)
China CDC reported the latest progress of the investigation, saying its fellow researcher Yin Shi'an, the third author of the paper, was inconsistent in his accounts during the investigation. As a result, China CDC has suspended his work and put him under further investigation.
All I see here is that the Chinese Government noticed problems in their study and acted on it. Aren't you a big believer in believing the chinese government? Is the Chinese Government lying about errors in the work?

Also, looks like similar trials went through some opposition by scientists themselves. Read this. Though I don't know any of the authors, so who knows how valid that is.
I am not going to defend a big company per se.
:lol:
I defend the science and the humanitarian projects. The science is on one side (and that includes the big GMO companies). The humanitarian part is on the produces of GR, which is largely humanitarian. Don't believe me, the companies plan is to make money selling their products to developed nations. For developing nations its free if the value of your crop is less than $10,000 USD. According to GP it took tens of millions of dollars to develop Golden Rice. Greenpeace's annual budget on hundreds of millions of Euro surpasses that.
This is a false comparison. You do know that Greenpeace annual budget =/= money spent on fighting GMO, which after all is only one part of many of their organizations. If you want to make this argument then show how much money Greenpeace spents fighting GMO vs the combined budget of GMO research + PR, or the combined budget of Greenpeace vs the combined budget of all companies investing in GMO.

All of them? Where the wheat crops in Australia illegal. No. It was planted by Australia's own CSIRO. Where the GMO in the UK illegal.
The once I mentioned were. All of them no. But then again, not every Greenpeace action is illegal either.
No. Although GP used a bullshit legal loophole to get around that.
Which was?

Greenpeace are attention whores, so of course their actions get more noticed. I can just turn it around and point out most people haven't heard of Golden Rice even though it was featured in TIME magazine in 2000, but most people are aware of GP anti GMO stance.
That doesn't actually answer my point.
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