Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Thanas »

Source
Image

Although talks between Germany’s security agencies and their American counterparts are officially still ongoing, the German government has little hope of a bilateral treaty which would stop the US spying on the German government, the Süddeutsche Zeitung and broadcaster NDR reported, quoting a high ranking civil servant.

Documents leaked by US security contractor Edward Snowden revealed a mass surveillance programme being run by the US National Security Agency (NSA).

In October it emerged the NSA had been tapping Chancellor Angela Merkel’s phone and allegedly ran a listening station from the US Embassy in Berlin, right in the centre of the German government quarter.

The idea of one its closest allies was apparently spying on it so energetically provoked outrage in Germany - and apologies from the USA.

But talks to reach a “no spy” agreement appear to have stalled.

The Süddeutsche headlined its report: “The Americans have lied to us”.

The report said Washington had not met Berlin’s key demands which included a promise to stop listening to politicians’ phone calls, give German officials access to the alleged listening station in the US Embassy, explain how long Merkel’s phone was monitored, and state whether or not she was the only prominent Germany politician to be targeted.

The civil servant told the paper: “We’re getting nothing.”

The Süddeutsche also said that the head of Germany’s foreign intelligence agency (BND) Gerhard Schindler had told colleagues that he would rather not the sign the deal in its current form. “There is great bitterness," the paper added.


A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”
Anybody really surprised? This is Obama we are talking about.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7551
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Zaune »

I still want to know who the hell signed off on running surveillence operations against a NATO ally with troops on the ground in Afghanistan. Seriously, has the NSA gone fucking rogue or have they just spent too much time hanging out with the British and think the Germans are secretly scheming to create a Fourth Reich?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
TimothyC
Of Sector 2814
Posts: 3793
Joined: 2005-03-23 05:31pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by TimothyC »

Zaune wrote:I still want to know who the hell signed off on running surveillence operations against a NATO ally with troops on the ground in Afghanistan. Seriously, has the NSA gone fucking rogue or have they just spent too much time hanging out with the British and think the Germans are secretly scheming to create a Fourth Reich?
It's their job?

Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?

I like that Snowden released the data on the internal operations.

I hate that he released the data on foreign operations.
"I believe in the future. It is wonderful because it stands on what has been achieved." - Sergei Korolev
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6196
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by bilateralrope »

Zaune wrote:I still want to know who the hell signed off on running surveillence operations against a NATO ally with troops on the ground in Afghanistan. Seriously, has the NSA gone fucking rogue or have they just spent too much time hanging out with the British and think the Germans are secretly scheming to create a Fourth Reich?
After reading a blog article titled How the NSA Threatens National Security, I'm thinking they have gone rogue. No effective oversight, only one success they admit to (a San Diego man sending $8,500 to support a Somali militant group) and their mass surveillance methods make it easier for other groups to spy on everyone by exploiting the same holes the NSA does.

If the NSA hasn't already gone rogue, what will it look like when they do ?
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Thanas »

TimothyC wrote:
Zaune wrote:I still want to know who the hell signed off on running surveillence operations against a NATO ally with troops on the ground in Afghanistan. Seriously, has the NSA gone fucking rogue or have they just spent too much time hanging out with the British and think the Germans are secretly scheming to create a Fourth Reich?
It's their job?

Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?

I like that Snowden released the data on the internal operations.

I hate that he released the data on foreign operations.
There is doing your job and then there is being an arrogant bull in a china shop.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6196
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by bilateralrope »

Wouldn't doing their job include actually stopping terrorist plots ?
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7551
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Zaune »

TimothyC wrote:It's their job?

Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?

I like that Snowden released the data on the internal operations.

I hate that he released the data on foreign operations.
As a matter of fact, with the possible exception of the last two? No, I do not think they'd be running intelligence operations on an allied nation. Because the US would react in pretty much exactly the same way the Germans are: they would be extremely pissed off and it would have a serious negative impact on diplomatic relations for a very long time to come, not to mention cost them dearly when it comes to the next trade treaty or defence contract.

If you want your allies to remain your allies, there are things you don't do.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:Anybody really surprised? This is Obama we are talking about.
No, this is the US Federal Government we are talking about. Or did you really think this started with Obama? I assure you the US has been spying on Germany since WWII. It's how the Feds work. No, I don't like it either. There are some good reasons the average US citizen is deeply mistrustful of the Feds.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Thanas »

The various programs we are talking about were begun under Obama, who has dramatically increased NSA funding. So yes, I would say that it is his fault.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Simon_Jester »

Obama has done literally nothing, less than nothing, to limit the spread of this massive surveillance.

But people were predicting this (or something like it) would happen since the Clinton administration, basically as long as there has been an Internet for the NSA to spy on. And this prediction has persisted, despite multiple shifts in which party/faction held political power in the US.

Ever heard of ECHELON? Right there you have an example of linear growth from a Cold War signals interception system to a mass monitoring of civilian communications. The thing's been triggering scandals since the 1980s. What we have here is continuation of a trend, which Obama has happily participated in, but which by all evidence we have from the past would have happened anyway. Or at least, would have happened unless we'd done something improbable like elect Ralph Nader in 2000 or Ron Paul in 2012.

If Clinton and Obama on the one hand, and Reagan and Bush the Younger on the other, are all willing to nurture the growth of this surveillance capability, the problem goes much deeper than any one man. This is unfortunate, because it suggests that it will take a really fundamental shift in American politics to put an end to the beast.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Flagg »

Since when has spying on allies been out of bounds? Hell, the UK did every underhanded thing they could think of to drag the US into WW2 using clandestine measures. Just because our shit works doesn't mean the rules suddenly change.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Siege
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4108
Joined: 2004-12-11 12:35pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Siege »

TimothyC wrote:Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?
If German, French and Polish government officials take a flying leap off a cliff do you honestly think your own should follow suit? "But THEY do it too" is a daft argument that reasonably intelligent people typically stop using sometime shortly after kindergarten. It's really sad to see it trotted out in situations like this as if it's suddenly profound worldly wisdom that totally justifies obvious wrongdoing.

If your best argument for letting badly surpervised agencies run roughshod over the laws of your allies is some nebulous 'they woulda if they coulda' alternate-reality bullshit that's pretty telling, not to mention real fucking thin. After all, even if they did, since when does your nation measure itself against what other nations do? There's all kinds of heinous shit going on in the world - check a few of the other active threads in this forum if you don't want to take my word for it - but I'd hope that if someone were to suggest that the USA imprison all gays because Uganda does it too that person would receive a proper tongue-lashing for their craziness. Yet somehow this brand of justification through association is seen as a profound recognition of political reality when spying on your allies is concerned. Well it's not, because it's obviously bullshit. What other people do is never a justification for what you do, and if other nations engage in criminal behaviour that doesn't mean you should (much less have to) do it too.

The USA famously prides itself on being the shining city on the hill that leads by example. Here's your chance to lead by the example of not dicking over the people you cal friends. I suggest you embrace it instead of stooping to this cringe-worthy mealy-mouthed defense of what is clearly needless, unjustified and insulting balderdash.
Image
SDN World 2: The North Frequesuan Trust
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty
SDN World 5: San Dorado
There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Zixinus »

Since when has spying on allies been out of bounds? Hell, the UK did every underhanded thing they could think of to drag the US into WW2 using clandestine measures. Just because our shit works doesn't mean the rules suddenly change.
I really hate this excuse. "Yeah, you spy on your allies, this is normal". No, it isn't, it isn't acceptable and isn't normal. Yes, people did it in the past, that doesn't mean it was okay to do it then. What you do is closely WATCH your allies (through legal means), yes, not hack their president's mobile phone and intercept their civilians private data. If Germany did the same thing with Obama, Americans would be outraged and angry with Germany.

Do you plant spycams into your friends home, bug their phone and computer and install trackers on their car? No. At most you take note what's going on when you visit, listen to what your friend says and maybe look at the newspapers and magazines he has on his table. Being allies implies trust and respect for the other country's laws, not subverting that trust and act angry when you are called out on it.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by K. A. Pital »

TimothyC wrote:Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?
This defence didn't help the Germans and the Japanese when it came to war crime trials, and it looks pathetically weak now. Yes, it is true that someone else did it. No, it's not true that this means you can escape responsibility for your uncovered bad deeds.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Welf
Padawan Learner
Posts: 417
Joined: 2012-10-03 11:21am

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Welf »

TimothyC wrote:It's their job?

Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?

I like that Snowden released the data on the internal operations.

I hate that he released the data on foreign operations.
No, their job is to protect the US.

Germany and the USA are allies, that means they already share data. Even more than would be legal according to German law. But both our government and even more our security agencies are very friendly to the US. When the first revelations about the NSA affair were in the news our government tried their best to appease the public and downplay it instead of asking questions. Only after it turned out even the chancellor was spied on there was a turning point.
If there were problems with sharing data I would understand massive spying. If there were radical parties in parliament or government with Anti-US ideology I would understand spying on officials. But none of that was the case. So I ask myself what exactly is the point of being an US "ally"? You still get treated like an opposing country. Except that you're expected to spend tax money on US interests.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Flagg »

Stas Bush wrote:
TimothyC wrote:Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?
This defence didn't help the Germans and the Japanese when it came to war crime trials, and it looks pathetically weak now. Yes, it is true that someone else did it. No, it's not true that this means you can escape responsibility for your uncovered bad deeds.
Did you just conflate genocide with tapping someone's phone?
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Irbis
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2262
Joined: 2011-07-15 05:31pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Irbis »

Thanas wrote:Anybody really surprised? This is Obama we are talking about.
No, this is Germany we're talking about. You know, the country that claims it is willing to give asylum to everyone fighting for human rights, yet one that didn't gave asylum to Snowden yet, despite his requests. In fact, German government rejected it out of hand and would probably hand Snowden back to USA if they could. This is doubly infuriating because you have very recent example of Chodorkowski, criminal on a scale of Bernie Madoff, whose only claim to fame was being hold in prison by Putin while inconveniencing him a bit. Less than 3 weeks ago Germany provided him with private plane owned by German minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, with German officials bowing all ahead of him as they transported him to all costs paid government clinic. Touching, big money will always have respect the commoners never will.

Why I say it's Germany's fault? Treatment of asylum seekers aside, ending of NSA surveillance is simple. Bar NSA access to Bad Aibling base, revoke SAFE HARBOR treaty, declare NSA personnel persona non grata, remove US gear from German IXPs, push EU to vote on anti-Echelon laws, really, there are dozens of options to show USA German irritation in a way that won't provoke retaliation. USA needs access to German data much more than the reverse. What Merkel did? Tried her best to silence the topic before elections, reluctantly revoked one archaic Cold War era agreement that allowed USA unlimited espionage in Germany (and that several months after Snowden revelations...), told BND to stil share data with American agencies. In short, did everything possible to keep pre-Snowden status quo. So why should Americans care? German rulers apparently don't.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by K. A. Pital »

Flagg wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
TimothyC wrote:Do you honestly think that the Germans, or the French, or the Poles, or the Saudis, or the Soviets Russians wouldn't do the exact same to the US if they could?
This defence didn't help the Germans and the Japanese when it came to war crime trials, and it looks pathetically weak now. Yes, it is true that someone else did it. No, it's not true that this means you can escape responsibility for your uncovered bad deeds.
Did you just conflate genocide with tapping someone's phone?
No, not really. Phone tapping is obviously not as bad as genocide. But it is bad, and pretending you didn't do something bad by pointing at others is kind of silly - the example was meant to show that if it comes under scrutiny, a "you too" defence will not work. Is harmlessly stalking a person better than brutally killing that person? Yes, it is. Does the fact that someone else also spied on a person make it okay? No.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Flagg »

Why is phone tapping bad? I mean going after Merkels phone was fucking dumb as shit, but it's not like anyone was killed over it. And really, we've all been doing this shit for decades, it was called ESCHELON. The only difference is that instead of having foreign governments tap our phones while we tap theirs and swap info we're doing all the dirty work ourselves. It's an ugly business, but spying always has been and probably always will be. I don't agree with the methods but have nothing against the principal.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Welf
Padawan Learner
Posts: 417
Joined: 2012-10-03 11:21am

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Welf »

Flagg wrote:Why is phone tapping bad? I mean going after Merkels phone was fucking dumb as shit, but it's not like anyone was killed over it.
Because if they can use their knowledge to influence public opinion or blackmail or bully critical voices. They don't even need to tell the truth, since they just make up something and people believe it, since those secret agencies are credible when they say they have ultimate knowledge. It's a tool that asks for undemocratic abuse.
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Grumman »

Flagg wrote:Why is phone tapping bad?
Because your government is supposed to require a damn fucking good reason to violate people's privacy like that.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Thanas »

Irbis wrote:
Thanas wrote:Anybody really surprised? This is Obama we are talking about.
No, this is Germany we're talking about. You know, the country that claims it is willing to give asylum to everyone fighting for human rights, yet one that didn't gave asylum to Snowden yet, despite his requests. In fact, German government rejected it out of hand and would probably hand Snowden back to USA if they could. This is doubly infuriating because you have very recent example of Chodorkowski, criminal on a scale of Bernie Madoff, whose only claim to fame was being hold in prison by Putin while inconveniencing him a bit. Less than 3 weeks ago Germany provided him with private plane owned by German minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, with German officials bowing all ahead of him as they transported him to all costs paid government clinic. Touching, big money will always have respect the commoners never will.

Why I say it's Germany's fault? Treatment of asylum seekers aside, ending of NSA surveillance is simple. Bar NSA access to Bad Aibling base, revoke SAFE HARBOR treaty, declare NSA personnel persona non grata, remove US gear from German IXPs, push EU to vote on anti-Echelon laws, really, there are dozens of options to show USA German irritation in a way that won't provoke retaliation. USA needs access to German data much more than the reverse. What Merkel did? Tried her best to silence the topic before elections, reluctantly revoked one archaic Cold War era agreement that allowed USA unlimited espionage in Germany (and that several months after Snowden revelations...), told BND to stil share data with American agencies. In short, did everything possible to keep pre-Snowden status quo. So why should Americans care? German rulers apparently don't.
Your solutions are impractical and it is quite laughable how you engage in victim-blaming.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Flagg »

Grumman wrote:
Flagg wrote:Why is phone tapping bad?
Because your government is supposed to require a damn fucking good reason to violate people's privacy like that.
As opposed to other governments who spied on US citizens for the US government as long as we spied on their citizens and shared what we learned? That was ESCHELON and it's VERY pre-9/11. Now I'm not one to trust politicians, frankly I don't think anyone should trust any politician ever at face value, but literally the only difference between this and ESCHELON is that we're now spying on ourselves now too.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:Your solutions are impractical and it is quite laughable how you engage in victim-blaming.
The problem is, Merkel is in this case literally the victim; her government has been explicitly identified as a target for NSA eavesdropping, and they have spied on her in her own person.

If, after this insolence and humiliation, Merkel does little or nothing... I can only conclude that if Germany really wants NSA wiretapping to be punished with anything more than harsh language, they are going to need a new chancellor, who will not submit to such treatment.

Germany has the fourth-largest economy in the world; that nation is under no obligation to accept this sort of thing with only a few mild squeaks of protest, no matter how arrogant or unpleasant the US government makes itself.

As far as I am concerned, it is perfectly reasonable for Germany to react very negatively to this. But the Germans need to actually do that, not just cry out in mock-protest, condemn America for the thousandth time, and then let the matter rest. A nation that will not stand up for itself will predictably be used as a doormat by the superpowers, whether it likes it or not. And if this becomes a pattern, happening over and over again in a rich and powerful country that is perfectly able to stand up to outside pressure in theory, then it raises issues.

An outside party can only conclude that the nation in question is accustomed to the role of doormat, and has no real objection to that role, whatever they might say. And this seems to be pretty much where Merkel is taking Germany, at least in terms of German-US relations.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
phongn
Rebel Leader
Posts: 18487
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:11pm

Re: Germany abandons hope of No-Spy treaty

Post by phongn »

Welf wrote:No, their job is to protect the US.
The NSA's original job is the communications intelligence mission. They were quite specifically formed to listen in onto as much foreign communications as possible. Another mission was added to protect US communications (e.g. by developing encryption systems) but the real mission was never to "protect the US".
bilateralrope wrote:Wouldn't doing their job include actually stopping terrorist plots ?
The NSA claims that information they have gathered has stopped terrorist plots.
Simon_Jester wrote:If Clinton and Obama on the one hand, and Reagan and Bush the Younger on the other, are all willing to nurture the growth of this surveillance capability, the problem goes much deeper than any one man. This is unfortunate, because it suggests that it will take a really fundamental shift in American politics to put an end to the beast.
The American intelligence community (and its political masters) more or less believes in the need for total information awareness and has since World War I.
Post Reply